I suggest you come up to Scandinavia
I suggest you accompany me to Mawsynram and let's see how your rim brakes cope with my particular random unexpected use case.
None of my 8 bikes come out of the garage with discs rubbing after having been used, cleaned (or not) and put away after a ride. Either your shed is incredibly damp and is causing the seals to swell slightly or you’ve not got them set up correctly in the first place.
The only time my discs ever rub is when it’s absolutely pouring down, I’ve been out in it for 40+ minutes and I’m out of the saddle pedalling. That’s seal swell and it will go away as soon as I use the brakes and definitely won’t be there the next time I use the bike.
None of my 8 bikes come out of the garage with discs rubbing after having been used, cleaned (or not) and put away after a ride.
Why don't you do a bit of googling about Shimano brakes in sub-zero conditions. Anyway, if you've got 8 bikes I guess you're not riding each one 5-7 days a week so we aren't really talking about the same thing here, are we?
I suggest you accompany me to Mawsynram
OK, you bring your bike and I'll bring mine. I can (and have) use parts from bikes I've pulled out of skips for spares and repairs. Let's see who can keep their bike going longest.
My SRAM 11 speed derailleurs only seem to last me a couple of years or so before shifting/holding line starts to go off and no amount of fettling can help,I'm guessing pin wear causes this or maybe just too many bramble tugs. In contrast I have a 13 year old Zee 10 speed derailleur that still functions and feels great on my old 26er hardtail.
Brucewee + submarined in a bike packing.com challenge to meet in the middle and see who has had least faff with their brakes 😀
The worst that can happen with Vs is that the rubbing is annoying, rather than making the bike unrideable.
Also, fixing problems with Vs is easy. I don’t really have the option of firing up the
1997-2004 I remember cursing v brakes after:
-spending hours in the garage stopping them rubbing
-Truing the wheels repeatedly to stop them rubbing
-pulling the brakes and getting nothing, then everything when wet
-pulling the brakes and having the cable pull through
-faffing with noodles
-faffing with worn/ damaged cables
-being 300 miles from home and staring at the rim that had exploded after wearing through
-replacing pads
-replacing pads
-replacing pads
-replacing the whole brake as they were worn out
Then I got a front disk, then a rear heaven!
I've spent a significant time faffing and cursing disk brakes since, but nothing like v's
I've done 700 miles on my current commuter. It had it's first puncture yesterday. The SRAM brakes, gx 12 gears have all been faultless.
1997-2004 I remember cursing v brakes after:
I remember a similar level of faff in the 90s.
I think the lesson here is that Vs just aren't good for mountain biking. But then that was never the discussion we were having.
I've almost worn through my last set of D521s on my commuter so I am getting a bit concerned about what to replace them with (Ryde Anda 40s looking like the best candidate, hoping they aren't made of cheese). But the XT shifter components are all just as good as the day I fitted them over 30 years ago. Again though, they aren't going to last forever and I'm worried that the 8 speed stuff available now is going to be like going back to running Alivio in 1997.
I guess it shouldn't really be surprising that a bike that you build to go 'proper' mountain biking in the year 2000 can handle commuting duties with absolutely no problems.
Why don’t you do a bit of googling about Shimano brakes in sub-zero conditions. Anyway, if you’ve got 8 bikes I guess you’re not riding each one 5-7 days a week so we aren’t really talking about the same thing here, are we?
Truthfully, I have no idea what you’re talking about or what you’re trying to prove? My commuter gets used 4 times a week for two hours a day in all weathers. The others get used interchangeably depending on weekend and evening rides. But sporadic use should be worse for the bike, not better. Half of my bikes have Shimano or SRAM brakes the rest are Hope, so a good sample and still no problems.
You’re suggesting problems with modern equipment that simply doesn’t exist in the larger population. Sure, there will be some issues and those will be the most vocal and evident, but there will be a significant silent majority for whom it all just works, so no need to say anything.
EDIT - I’m showing a small population of bikes, all with Hydro brakes and electric shifting or internal routing that require almost no maintenance beyond drivetrain, pad and tyre wear and that function perfectly each time they’re used.
Truthfully, I have no idea what you’re talking
So, you didn't bother googling anything?
Not had any issues with old stuff or new(ish) stuff.
I'm running Dura Ace, Ultegra/600 and Deore XT/LX components that are 30 plus years old. My commuter is on LX/XT.
Compared to 10 year old 105, new stuff has lots more plastic. SRAM X9 mech is definitely alot more skelatal compared to old stuff. Cranks are scooped out or hollow, not solid chunks of aluminium.
The desire for lighter weight and more and more gear range has meant more fragile designs, but Ive not had to replace components. GXP and hollowtech BB's aren't as long lasting as square taper.
Comparing an old 8 speed XT mech to a newer 10 speed, the old one clearly doesn't have the range as its much more compact, but its a much sturdier and probably heavier design. The cage is probably twice the thickness with a steel backplate
So the consensus here is that parts DO need replacing more often these days. Thanks for your replies.
At some point, my bike will probably need replacing, as surely the frame will eventually give up. One issue the bike shop guy told me about, is that the wheels are 26", and modern bikes have larger wheels, so getting replacements might become difficult. They are fine for now however, so hopefully will see a few more years use. My wife's bike is even older, and had new wheels around 15 years ago. Her bike has had more replacement parts over time, but I think this is because hers was a cheaper bike to begin with. She's had about 4 new sets of gear shifters. Her brakes were changed to v-brakes around the same time I bought my bike, as it was clear they were better than her old style ones. We've had a couple of sets of mudguards each, they seem to get a lot of scrapes and bashes. But overall we're pretty happy. Our bikes might not be in the same league as many of yours, but then we're only going a few miles at a time. My bike colleague spends thousands on bikes, has several and is always complaining about something going wrong on one or other of them! But he and others have helped me sort out little things on the bikes and keep the brakes maintained and that. But they don't get all that much attention. I probably could have changed the derailer myself, but it's a fiddly job and the chain etc is so filthy I was happy to pay someone else to do it!
So, you didn’t bother googling anything?
Why would I? Mineral oil starts to freeze at -30, water mixed with MO at around -10, rubber becomes brittle at sub zero, so yes, until the brakes are used, the calliper may be stiff, but once it's used it should be fine. I regularly commute in temperatures down to -10 with the wind chill, but the bike I'll use in the morning is kept in the house ready to go. Lots of things get stiff at sub-zero temperatures, but why is that a significant problem in the UK? How many people still commute via bike on the few days where it's minus 5?
Anyway - googling (since you insisted and couldn't be bothered to provide a link) reveals the second hit was a thread from STW in 2010, so 14 years ago. Not exactly a new problem, is it?
Talk about a mountain out of a molehill, but hey, if you want to use a bike with fiddly brakes, mixed performance in bad weather and (probably) even worse braking performance when it's freezing, because, yes, those blocks are rubber too, knock yourself out, but don't try to convince me that 3-5 days out of the year when fluid/seals may be cause slight rubbing outweighs substantial maintenance and operational benefits for the other 360days when using Hydros.
If parts do require replacing more frequently these days then surely our changing climate is a factor. I'm fairly sure it used to be summer 11 months year and you could just blow the dust off your drivetrain, now that it rains every three hours parts have more murky sludge to contend with, possibly causing them to give up sooner.
Actually, it's many threads on many sites starting from around 15 years ago. It's an ongoing issue.
I think you're just going to have to face it, hydraulic disc brakes sometimes go wrong. And when they go wrong they are going to be far more complex to fix than cables.
And on a commuter that I need everyday, I'll take ease of fixing over performance (or even reduced frequency of maintenance) anytime.
Happy enough with that or do you want to continue condemning me for heresy?
BruceWeeFull Member
Actually, it’s many threads on many sites starting from around 15 years ago. It’s an ongoing issue.
And even then, they said it was irritating, but not an issue. It's an issue if you're in arctic, but not in the UK. If you ARE in the arctic, use SRAM with Dot5 fluid and you'll have less of a problem as the fluid won't be near its freezing point. Anecdotally, I've had cables freeze in their outers where moisure has got in and we've been bivvying. Shifter cables, but still.
I think you’re just going to have to face it, hydraulic disc brakes sometimes go wrong. And when they go wrong they are going to be far more complex to fix than cables.
All brakes go wrong, but cable brakes need more TLC than hydro brakes in every circumstance. Once setup, hydro's just work. Maybe if you've got QR axles and are constantly taking the wheels out, but with TA, they're fit and forget until the pads need replacing or (in the case of Shimano) the callipers crack and leak.
And on a commuter that I need everyday, I’ll take ease of fixing over performance (or even reduced frequency of maintenance) anytime.
In 20 years of riding bikes with hydraulic disks, I can count on one hand the faults I've had and all of them have been due to a leaking Shimano calliper and even then, what I got was variable brake performance. Veriable brake performance is what i had constantly with cable brakes. Degrading cables, pad wear changing the geometry of contact, cables which need retensioned, outers which need replacing, springs which need cleaning/altering, pad contact adjusters which need winding. All gone with Hydro discs.
Happy enough with that or do you want to continue condemning me for heresy?
Heck, I'm more than happy with you quietly being a luddite, but stop telling everyone that modern bikes and hydro discs don't work because on 0.35% riding days of the year, they may rub on the discs when you start your ride. It's bad advice.
Anyway, I'm out. I'll just go and NOT have to fettle my brakes as they all just work...
I think you’re just going to have to face it, hydraulic disc brakes sometimes go wrong. And when they go wrong they are going to be far more complex to fix than cables.
All brakes go wrong, but cable brakes need more TLC than hydro brakes in every circumstance. Once setup, hydro’s just work.
Jesus, this is like stepping back 25 years when disk brakes and suspension were still new and there was genuine scepticism. Yes, if you're trekking across the Serengeti, ride a steel rigid bike with rim brakes so the local blacksmith can fix it by hand forging whatever he has to hand. Otherwise, just buy disk brakes that work when it's raining and service them once a year.
So the consensus here is that parts DO need replacing more often these days. Thanks for your replies.
I don't read that there's any sort of consensus on the thread at all. One person has suggested that tolerance may have effected durability and one person has said "it depends" a few others have suggested that 'some' bits were better back in the day.
And even then, they said it was irritating, but not an issue. It’s an issue if you’re in arctic, but not in the UK.
No, it's an issue if you live somewhere where the temperature can drop below 0 (with shimano brakes, probably not DOT fluid brakes). Mineral oil is hydrophobic so the water is going to pool. Pooled water is going to freeze and there's a good chance you are going to have problems.
And sometimes it's irritating. Others have reported having to shoulder the bike and walk the rest of the way because the wheels no longer turn.
Anyway, this is just one of the many possible things that can go wrong with hydraulic disc brakes.
Either I and all the customers who came into the workshop when I was spannering were spectacularly unlucky or you guys are spectacularly lucky with your hydraulic disc brakes.
You can put your cable brake bike away and be reasonable sure it's going to be in the same state when you take it out of the shed the next morning. Sure, cables can seize and (providing you don't have full length cables) the fix is 30 seconds and a can of WD-40 or whatever you have to hand.
With hydraulic discs you put the bike away and it could be in any state when you go to grab it the next morning. The levers could go to the bar. The levers could go nowhere near the bar and the pads could be jammed solidly against the discs. The lever could feel a bit spongy and you figure out why when you get to the first big hill that the reason is the calipers have leaked oil all over your discs. Or maybe the bite point is just wandering around and you aren't sure why. The possibilities are endless.
Fixing them starts with a bleed (not normally a job you do when you need to be at work in 15 minutes) and if that doesn't fix the problem then the fun really begins. In all my years of working on my own bike and working in the bike shop I never found a set of cable brakes that stumped me. Every single time the problem was obvious and almost always easily fixed.
I guess for IT managers it's not a big deal to get to work late (or to just not bother going in and take a work from home day so you can properly service your bike) but for many people that's just not an option.
If I have a bike that I need to work then it shouldn't have hydraulic disc brakes.
I have never, until I read this thread, come across " water pooling in Shimano hydraulic brakes. Where are we suggesting the water comes from that can pool in them??
The oil when bled on all the ones I've worked on can be discoloured but this is from seal degredation or hose degredation. Never noticed any oil floating on a pool of water 🤷🏻
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/mineral-oil-in-freezing-conditions/
It doesn't really matter show water gets in (if air can get in then I'm pretty sure water can get in) but if any water does get in it's going to sink to the bottom of the system which just happens to be the caliper.
And, just to make things extra fun, if it is there it's highly unlikely that a bleed is going to get rid of it unless your brakes have got the One Way Bleed feature.
I put a recommendation in the thread for a modified gravity bleed to deal with the issue but honestly I'm coming round to the idea that mineral oil in brakes is just a bad idea.
Air doesn't just "get in" it gets in when components are replaced. It then is left there when people do shit bleeds.
Air doesn’t just “get in” it gets in when components are replaced. It then is left there when people do shit bleeds.
Ha ha. OK.
So if you buy a set of brakes and they work they will simply continue working forever so long as you don't touch them? You're saying people bleeding their brakes is causing people to have shit brakes?
Maybe you should tell shimano to just get rid of the bleed ports. No one would ever have brake problems again.
😂😂😂 what a place. Grown ups arguing about the merits of mineral oil or cable disc brakes
