So I took my bike to a bike shop the other day, because I was having problems with the gear shifting, and my bike-mad colleague advised my rear derailer was worn out, plus the shifter is knackered too. The bike shop lad asked me how old the parts were, and they must be 20+ years old as the bike was bought new in 2003. I have had the chain and rear cogs replaced a few times. He exclaimed that nothing lasts anywhere near as long as that now, that parts need replacing much more frequently. Which is a bit depressing. The new parts are a Shimano Sora derailer and a Shimano Altus gear shifter. The old parts were Shimano Deore. So can I not expect a good service life from these parts? And why do they not last as long as parts apparently used to?
If i'd have got 20 years out original Deore parts, I'd be well chuffed TBH.
Can I also just check that you seem to be surprised that a man who's livelihood in part relies on people buying bike components from him, has told you that you need to buy bike components from him?
It's all a scam by Big Shifter...
SRAM, SRAM is the reason. Their BB's have always been universally rubbish, their mechs are made of cheese, their brakes have had umpteen issues, the Reverb is expensive, complicated and failure prone, etc, etc. About the only division that makes more reliable parts than the competition seems to be Rockshox. Their R&D seems geared around designing functionally better kit, but the testing is in ideal conditions.
That and they don't make "cheap" commuter group sets like Shimano. SRAM's version of trickle down is to take a £300 rear mech and make it from even cheaper aluminum bits until you get NX which is 12speed garbage. Whereas Deore is a melding of XTR and decades of making group sets for commuters and tourers.
Shimano stuff still lasts well, I wouldn't worry too much.
The only thing that's got measurably better over the years seems to be (higher spec) chains and by extension the drivetrain.
To qualify that I've got a box of SRAM mechs, some mangled, some imperceptibly bent, one was bent by nothing more substantial than deep mud. Whereas the Deore mech on my FS bike has several great big scuffs and gouges from rock strikes.
Things seem to be more 'race car' than 'family car' these days. Bikes perform great when new and if you keep them spotless and serviced you might get a few years out of them.
This is fine for your road bike or your mountain bike (recreational toys) but they seem to be applying the same principles to the bikes people use for commuting and these bikes will just stop working.
My current commuter has been neglected and ridden in shitty conditions (like all my previous commuter bikes) but on this one the brakes and the front mech have packed up before I've even worn through it's first chain.
The bike shop lad asked me how old the parts were, and they must be 20+ years old as the bike was bought new in 2003. I have had the chain and rear cogs replaced a few times. He exclaimed that nothing lasts anywhere near as long as that now, that parts need replacing much more frequently.
Assuming the 'bike shop lad' is actually a young person, how on earth would they know how long bike components 'used to last'? Technically they've probably spent less time on earth than your Deore components ...
It sounds like the usual made-up, grumpy, old bike shop owner /mechanic crap that he's picked up osmotically from the people he works with rather than any sort of evidence-based thing, My experience of several decades is that some stuff - brake pads for one - actually lasts longer then it used to, mostly though, it seems about the same.
Longevity relies on folks looking after their kit, which some seem increasingly reluctant to do. Despite @thisisnotaspoon ranting about SRAM parts, regular maintenance has meant that my 6 year old Enduro still has the same mech and shifter, the same Truativ chainset, and ultra reliable Code brakes. In fact some of the only things that have lasted from original are SRAM parts
I think there's a lot more expectation of big hitting things now, which are more likely to break things.
Also, I think tolerances are much tighter, 12 speed is definitely more fussy about well aligned hangers than 8 speed was. I imagine you can't get away with nearly as much rear mech slop as you used to.
I always liked that SRAM stuff seemed like it was intended to be user serviceable, you could pull apart and service their shifters easily, where when Shimano ones pretty much went in the bin when they started to fail to index.
Assuming the ‘bike shop lad’ is actually a young person, how on earth would they know how long bike components ‘used to last’? Technically they’ve probably spent less time on earth than your Deore components
Probably from seeing 20 year old stuff that works still, vs 2 year out broken stuff.
Longevity relies on folks looking after their kit, which some seem increasingly reluctant to do.
For recreational bikes, sure.
For commuter bikes, no. They should just work. And when they stop working it should be easily fixed.
Commuter bikes shouldn't have full length cables (let alone internal routing), clutch mechs, wide range cassettes, and (this one might be controversial) hydraulic disc brakes.
I know that cheap bikes mostly have this set up but if you want a decent bike a lot of these 'upgrade features' end up on there as well.
A good commuter should be robust even when neglected (and not have to resort hub gears). 90s mountain bikes and 00s CX bikes for the win as far as commuting bikes go, imo.
Deffo, every 3 to six months..
All of them at once 🙂
I have found that since I've had kids the components on all my bikes seem to last forever.
It's the use and maintenance (or lack thereof) that'll determine how long something lasts. I've seen 1yr old drivetrain parts absolutely shot to bits after a year of commuting in all weathers but the same parts on a "nice days only" road bike will last 5+ years.
Cheap shite like Tourney and Acera will fail much quicker than decent middle of the road stuff like SLX / XT. The real top end kit like XTR and Dura Ace will often sacrifice a bit of durability in the name of weight saving.
As for the shop mechanic, I think it's written into the contract of all bike mechanics that they must have 20:20 rose tinted vision and use the phrase "back in my day..." at every opportunity to describe how the bike industry now is nowhere near as good as it once was.
If i’d have got 20 years out original Deore parts, I’d be well chuffed TBH.
Well how long should things last? The rest of the bike is pretty much original, I changed the saddle. He was very impressed with the 'bottom bracket' axle, and said theres no way modern ones would last more than a couple of years with regular use. Really?
Assuming the ‘bike shop lad’ is actually a young person, how on earth would they know how long bike components ‘used to last’? Technically they’ve probably spent less time on earth than your Deore components
He's in his 40s. He said he much prefers older bikes as they are simpler and easier to work on, as well as parts lasting longer.
Longevity relies on folks looking after their kit
This times a million.
Also, the UK climate is a big factor regarding component longevity. Ride in sloppy, crappy weather and then chuck your bike straight into a cold, damp garage and see how long those metal parts last.
I think that the steady improvement in performance has led to an erosion of durability and a need to be in 'perfect' condition to maintain that performance.
I also think more parts are built to a budget, not a durability. I think this is why Shimano is changing a few things with Cues.
eBikes of course eat parts due to extra weight and power.
That said, I also think that a lot of folk now ride harder - and that battering into the terrain has a significant impact on parts.
Good examples are
- tyres - amazingly better than 1990's tyres, but that softness and grip costs durability.
- rear mech - more gears = needs to be more more carefully set up, less option to be 'a bit worn' as it just won't work properly.
Can I also just check that you seem to be surprised that a man who’s livelihood in part relies on people buying bike components from him, has told you that you need to buy bike components from him?
I bought the parts online (on his advice), as he said he cannot stock anywhere near the range of options that is needed now. He makes his living from service charges not from profits on parts much, because he said the profit margins are so low for independents like him. So he's actually buying parts online as and when needed, as it's cheaper for him to do that than order from a supplier.
Well how long should things last?
There's no answer to that. It depends on too many variables doesn't it. Any bike, like any mechanical object, will need looking after, and what environment its used in will dictate how frequently it needs it. If you only ever ride the bike on dry days and are fastidious about cleaning it it will massively effect the lifespan compared to something that gets used in all weathers and just pushed back into the shed at the end of the day.
For commuter bikes, no. They should just work. And when they stop working it should be easily fixed.
Sorry, but this is nonsense. My commuter (like all my other bikes) never needs fixing, because I maintain it properly. Commuter bikes can have any components you want on them, and they need to be able to 'go' at the drop of a hat, if you need to fix something on your bike before that happens, that's on you, not anything to do with bike components.
The classic thing used to be to buy Deore chainrings as they were made out of steel, cheap and last multiple times longer than the next level up groupset
Deore is no longer cheap - not sure if they are still made out of steel?
Commuter bikes shouldn’t have full length cables (let alone internal routing), clutch mechs, wide range cassettes, and (this one might be controversial) hydraulic disc brakes.
for a bike used in all weathers I'd want full length cables. Internal probably a needless faff though.
clutch mechs and wide range cassettes come part and parcel with the 1x drivetrain, which is a godsend for the more casual user (one button for easier, one button for faster)
hydraulic brakes similarly I'd spec from a idiot friendly point of view. the self adjusting pads means you can get years and thousands of miles of road/towpath use without doing anything to them.
Maintainence issues while I've aimed at the less serious cyclist, are probably equally applicable to the enthusiast who will baby and fettle their weekend play thing, but want their commuter to go out 5 days a week year round with no work needed.
Yes and no IMHO. Your old stuff was Deore 9 speed. Probably the best generation of Shimano stuff shimano ever made in terms of durability, it used a well honed design from generations of kit before it, and was the last series they made using that system where all the bits were replaceable, before the new 10 speed came out and everything started to get a bit throwaway, a problem now accelerated by the 11 and 12speed kit that places extra strain and wear on all parts causing premature wear (relative to say 9 speed) while also requiring far tighter tolerances to work right.
Now you're replacing it with also 9-speed. Except now rather than being over engineered 2003 MTB kit you're replacing it with made-to-a-budget 2024 commuter kit, and so you should expect it won't last as long. Sorry! However if you'd had made-to-a-budget shimano stuff, or anything SRAM from back then, you'd probably not be using it 20y later, so it does depend on what it was still.
Sorry, but this is nonsense. My commuter (like all my other bikes) never needs fixing, because I maintain it properly. Commuter bikes can have any components you want on them, and they need to be able to ‘go’ at the drop of a hat, if you need to fix something on your bike before that happens, that’s on you, not anything to do with bike components.
Sorry, but that's nonsense.
My 90s mountain bike that I used for years just works. I replace stuff when it wears out. I re-wax the chain when I think it needs it. That's it.
My 2021 commuter just doesn't work. Like I said, I haven't even worn a chain out yet and already the brakes are knackered, the front shifter is knackered, the rear mech sometimes shifts down but often doesn't, and if I keep using it as a commuter I'm sure more problems will emerge.
Two bikes with the same attention/maintenance. The 2.5 year old one is just not fit for purpose compared to the 25 year old one.
I've just welcomed the first 1-by bike into our household. It will also be the last. Rear mech and cassette look like they'll last about 5 rides.
XT shifters on my 2001 bike still work perfectly, everything else has been changed a couple of times at least, but I guess I've been getting about 7 years out of rings and mechs on average. Just got an expensive new old stock XT front mech, 2000 year, expect that to last forever with a bit of occasional lube
Like I said, I haven’t even worn a chain out yet and already the brakes are knackered, the front shifter is knackered, the rear mech sometimes shifts down but often doesn’t
So, are you saying that the components that are on the bike are of poorer quality than you expected, or that components that can last a couple of years or more un-maintained don't exist, or that you chose poorly?
It’s not really time, it’s mileage and how clean/lubed it’s been during that mileage.
Exactly. I've always reckoned that riding off road in the mud and gravel is about 5x as hard on the drivetrain as commuting with a nicely lubed chain. Steel Deore stuff will last for years on a commuter bike, higher-end aluminium stuff will be knackered in a year from regular off-road riding.
Yes and no IMHO. Your old stuff was Deore 9 speed. Probably the best generation of Shimano stuff shimano ever made in terms of durability, it used a well honed design from generations of kit before it, and was the last series they made using that system where all the bits were replaceable, before the new 10 speed came out and everything started to get a bit throwaway, a problem now accelerated by the 11 and 12speed kit that places extra strain and wear on all parts causing premature wear (relative to say 9 speed) while also requiring far tighter tolerances to work right.
That's interesting. Like most people I suspect, I just want my bike to work with minimal fuss. I don't need it to win the Tour de France, I just want to get from A to B. It is 9 speed; I remember that being the standard back then. Cheaper bikes had less gears. It's a shame that parts are less reliable now; Cycling is supposed to be a more sustainable form of transport.
Now you’re replacing it with also 9-speed. Except now rather than being over engineered 2003 MTB kit you’re replacing it with made-to-a-budget 2024 commuter kit, and so you should expect it won’t last as long. Sorry! However if you’d had made-to-a-budget shimano stuff, or anything SRAM from back then, you’d probably not be using it 20y later, so it does depend on what it was still.
That's a shame. I understand the Deore was 'mid-range' kit back then, and Sora is fairly close in terms of quality. I could't get a new Deore derailer because it has more gears now and I'd have had to spend a lot more money to buy more new parts.
or that components that can last a couple of years or more un-maintained don’t exist,
This.
benpinnck probably nailed the reasons for this above. There was a period of peak simplicity, performance, serviceability, and robustness 20 odd years ago that hasn't been matched since.
It’s a shame that parts are less reliable now;
They're not.
My peak riding was as a teenager in the late 90s/early 2000s. My mates and I used to break shit all the bloody time. Frames seemed particularly fragile, lost count of the number of warranty Marins i had, and similar stories with friends' Oranges and Treks.
Then there were the Shimano shifters that constantly snapped ratchets, the Pace forks that seemed to break on every ride, the 521s that couldn't take a decent hit, the RS forks that would blow damper cartridges for fun, the constantly warrantied Fox Vanilla R etc etc. the only things that spring to mind from around then that didn't need constant attention seemed to be Bombers and Hope stuff. I did weekend work in a bike shop and it was the same story.
Fast forward to now and I've got forks from there manufacturers that just see a lowers service every year and keep on trucking, frames that seem far more reliable, pedals that seem to take abuse mega well, drivetrains that just seen to need the occasional hanger straightening and new inner.
I'm heavier and clumsier than I was, but anecdotally to me, stuff is just so much better now. My bikes are mostly a mix of mid range stuff and it's brilliant.
Except Shimano brakes. I'm in double digits for weeping calipers now.
They’re not.
But several people here are suggesting they are?
that hasn’t been matched since.
How d'you know? I mean, if you're measuring longevity then the only measure is well; time, and newer components are newer. Nothing lasts like a component that's lasted longer...If you're going to say "all components now haven't lasted as long as the particular parts on my particular bike from the 90's" there's no response to that other than "we'll see..."
There may be someone right now with the same parts that have failed on your bike that is sailing along more than happily...That its not you is not indicative of anything.
Could be.
But the consensus seems to be if you don't look after stuff it's not going to last (even you have said that).
The kit we're talking about on this thread has had 20 years of neglect and still going strong (or rather only just breaking now). Perhaps there are a huge silent majority who haven't washed or lubed anything on their 3/4/5 year old bikes going merrily on their way but I somehow doubt it.
But several people here are suggesting they are?
And..?
Some parts will last, others will get smashed into rocks, some will be cherished, some folks will get lucky and their cheaply made mass produced parts will last decades, just because. Other folks will have those same parts last 2 rides and it'll self destruct into a shower of shiny but useless bits. It's a lottery, some you win (20 year old Deore parts) some you loose (buying a bike with duff bits)
The kit we’re talking about on this thread has had 20 years of neglect and still going strong
Your familiar with the concept of survivor bias, right?
I mean take any point in just this forum's history and I will guarantee you that there's going to be some-one posting about just how shit and short lived the very same parts are that you're singing the praises of.
It is 9 speed; I remember that being the standard back then. Cheaper bikes had less gears
I think you've hit the nail with this comment.
12 is now the "standard*" for road and mountain. cheaper bikes have less gears.
(and 20 years before your 9 speed, the standard was 5 gears, so its actually slowed down!).
As Ben says, 9 speed now is lower end stuff, made to a price point. Buying a new 9 speed mech now is like buying some 6 speed junker plastic mech with thumb shifters back in 2003. Unless you can find some new-old-stock in the back of a warehouse somewhere.
*of course, shimano is about to ride in and "save the day with the new CUES stuff which is 9, 10 or 11 speed and supposedly made for durability and e-bike power... but will be incompatible with existing 9 speed.
Longevity relies on folks looking after their kit,
Is a fair point, for serviceable kit. Forks will last longer if given the occasional lower leg service for example.
which some seem increasingly reluctant to do. Despite @thisisnotaspoon ranting about SRAM parts, regular maintenance has meant that my 6 year old Enduro still has the same mech and shifter
But a BB is a BB, it's not user serviceable, it only has 7 parts in total usually! Yes I know some people take the seals of the bearings with a pick and pack with unobtanium grease, but that's just saying it wasn't good enough when it left the factory, but with more steps.
Mechs, I've not ever had to replace a SRAM jockey wheel, the mechs always bent first, at least 6 of them.
I've never bent a Shimano mech.
So it's gone beyond reasonable doubt for me that SRAM mechs are fragile.
Brakes, the master cylinder pistons swell. It might be a tolerance thing that doesn't affect every set, but 3 out of 5 sets of AVID/SRAM brakes I've had have failed like that. At least now you can get metal ones from China.
The reverb died twice, once the hose connector went (early external hose type) which is the sort of problem that really should have been apparent if they'd tested it adequately. Then the IFP leaked like every reverb.
SRAM do make some good stuff and push the envelope out for performance. But they really do need to take a step back and fix some of their issues. You wouldn't buy a motorbike and accept that Honda/Yamaha/KTM had fitted plastic brake pistons that failed on 3 out of 5 bikes? But somehow that's normal in mountainbikes costing as much as the motorbikes!
Since Shimano introduced Shadow rear mechs... they last forever. I'd suggest current Deore will last even longer than the mechs made 20 years ago.
I have had the chain and rear cogs replaced a few times.
That'll help keep the jockey wheels alive as well.
He’s in his 40s. He said he much prefers older bikes as they are simpler and easier to work on, as well as parts lasting longer.
Back In The Day, you had much less choice of kit. Therefore it was easy to replace stuff because most bikes used (broadly) the same basic components that were (broadly) cross compatible. You got a MTB, you could be pretty certain that virtually any triple chainset would fit on it, maybe requiring a new square taper BB if the length was a bit off. Any bike shop would have half a dozen Shimano UNxx BB's lying around the place, they'd pretty much all fit.
Now there are whole warehouses of options for every part on a bike, much of it requiring proprietary or specific fixings so it's certainly more confusing and no shop could ever hope to stock a full range of even basic consumables like bearings. How many BB standards are there now?!
Re the SRAM comments. I’m still using their XX1 stuff from 2018 and 12,000 miles. It hasn’t given me any issues at all in that time apart from consumable replacements like jockey wheels, cassettes and chainrings. Even then I found this lasts waaaay longer than the Shimano equivalents.
My SRAM brakes died last year so a pretty decent run from them too. All my Shimano brakes have leaked at the caliper and ended up in landfill.
Personally I think that stuff lasts longer than it used to 30 years ago but you have to spend a bit more / be selective to get the longevity. Alivio / Deore stuff is generally consumable items that I would expect to chuck in a bin after a couple of years although it’s time Shimano started making their bits user serviceable
Sorry, but this is nonsense. My commuter (like all my other bikes) never needs fixing, because I maintain it properly. Commuter bikes can have any components you want on them, and they need to be able to ‘go’ at the drop of a hat, if you need to fix something on your bike before that happens, that’s on you, not anything to do with bike components.
I sort of agree, but a reasonable expectation of a commuter bike should (IMO) be able to do a 'Monday to Friday' set of journeys (assuming you do a 5 day week) without needing to be touched till the weekend. and then that weekend preventative maintenance shouldn't need to be too involved either i.e. a "routine" clean and application of lubricants, perhaps periodically change a tyre/Chain/Cassette/cable/brake pads, a big annual strip and rebuild isn't a crazy notion but with all of that I would expect a mech to last years. Parts to wear out over time and 20 years innings assuming regular use and basic maintenance isn't bad.
It's interesting (to me) that the OP went in with a 9 speed Deore mech and came out with a 9 speed Sora fitted, you could sort of argue this is about equivalent (Sora is about the best 9 speed option still in production outside of CUES (Discuss)), and obviously means the bike stays on the came cable pull as it's old Deore (if that really matters). Fundamentally the new parts are made about the same way from the same basic materials (stamped and cast bit of Al/Steel with some moulded nylon housings?) the specific product line name doesn't make much difference finish and weight might not be to everyone's tastes, but they do the job right?
In terms of performance/longevity I'd kind of expect a modern 9 speed Altus shifter/Sora Mech to last about as long as the Deore parts that they replaced but it's notable that they didn't try to move you on to a modern 10 or 11 speed equivalent set of bits as that would have meant flogging you a whole new drivetrain (i.e. new mechs/Cassettes/chain/chainrings/shifters) and a chunk more labour. I suspect they could tell you weren't up for more than the minimum level of spend to keep the bike rolling.
Out of interest did they offer/give you the parts back that they'd removed OP?
But a BB is a BB, it’s not user serviceable
None of them are, They're a couple of bearings right in the firing line of the muck and crap we like to ride through. They're a consumable item, and built and priced as consumable.
I've just bought my second set of jockey wheels for my XO1 mech, that's 6 years old and scratched to shit but is otherwise perfectly serviceable, and I never had any issues with any Shimano mechs I've ever owned either. I've never had the seal problem with either the Guides or the Codes that I'm currently using, although again, I never had any issues with any Shimano 'wandering bite point brakes' either.
I experienced the infamous unfixable XT wandering bite point, had ignored it getting worse until it failed on a downhill. Bled it a year ago and it's been fine since.
Hope BBs (and others) have replaceable bearings. Endurobearings and Chris King (and others) have user serviceable bearings. Sram and Shimano BB are soon for the bin... (the former well before the later, in my experience, but both have a short life really).
I don't think parts are less durable now, too broad a statement anyway (apart from comparing modern 2pc crank BBs to square taper BBs.. that's 10, maybe 20x difference).
The points about time being pointless as a measure if we don't have other measurements, and 9-speed XT then Vs 9-speed Alivio now, have been made - the other point is how much closer tolerance some parts are in order to get faster shifts or a lighter lever feel, so we hit the wear limit sooner.
Anecdotally some 12s stuff seems to have a very good rep for durability now.
And in all this I'm tempted to think the lube type and how/when/if you clean you bike makes more difference to longevity than the variability of different parts under the same use and maintenance regime.
The new LinkGlide stuff (aka CUES) is significantly more durable and tolerant of minimal maintenance than other 11 or 12 speed stuff. I’ve got 11 speed on my ebike which is used for commuting and gnarlier MTBing (it’s my only full-sus) and it’s lasting much better than SLX 11 speed. For a commuter I’d get the 9 speed version. I’m planning to change to a 10 speed cassette when this one is worn out.
I'm 4 years, 3 bikes, and about 3000 all season mtb miles (including multiple uplifts and multiple Welsh storms) into a 12s Deore mech. All it's needed was a clutch regrease. Modern Deore is brilliant.
Hmmmm… it’s all very subjective. Some stuff used to last longer but it often wasn’t as finely tuned or precise so the system was more tolerant to wear. This is especially true of friction shift stuff.
But old school headsets and bottom brackets were a pain. Loose ball BBs needed adjusting and greasing all the time. Hubs used to suffer from bent and broken axles and chrome and rustless spokes were crap. As for tyres… they were awful. Don’t get me started on things like screw on freewheels that self destructed after riding through a muddy puddle.
1994(?) STX 8 speed was working fine when I swapped to 9 a couple years ago and I only changed in order to fit discs and the brake levers were integrated. In fact th rear mech is still going strong with a nine speed set up.
I currently run 2 bikes
One is drop bar with shimano 10 speed. Durability seems to similar to everything I’ve owned before, going back to 5 speed.
I also own a 12 speed gx mountain bike. Brakes are great, they just need new pads. Chain and cassette seems fine. Maybe a bit more picky on set up but hardly a different league. It’s had a few chains but in the original cassette
However
The rear gx derailleur wore out. I have never worn out a rear derailleur before.
Threaded DUB bottom bracket. What a joke. I think my bikes on its 4th. Bloke next to me at work is on his 5th or 6th. Much worse than anything i have used before
My Hope brakes haven’t been completely ignorable but one set is over 10 years old, one set over 5 years old, with no plans to replace them for a long time. Similar with Hope BBs (with 24mm axle Shimano cranks). And Hope hubs and headsets. Not cheap but good value in the long run.
GXP was terrible too. You had to fit a Hope! But then again all external BBs seem to wear faster than the good Shimano square taper and even splined internal types.
Commuter bikes shouldn’t have full length cables (let alone internal routing), clutch mechs, wide range cassettes, and (this one might be controversial) hydraulic disc brakes.
Yeah, most (all) of that is just bollocks. Hydro and Di2 makes for almost no maintenance and totally predictable performance in all weathers.
33490km on the same mechs, same battery, same brakes, same bearings (King everywhere) and 2 full GRX 11 drivetrains (rings, chain and cassette) along with additional chains (4 in total). Seems fairly reliable to me.
Probably from seeing 20 year old stuff that works still, vs 2 year out broken stuff.
Yeah right, because he also saw all the 20 year-old stuff that broke after two years when he was but a toddler... It's just one of those crappy 'everything used to be better / last longer / smell nicer' myths. Plus people who work in bike shops probably get a distorted idea of breakages because, guess what, not many people come in and say, hey look, could you replace my brakes / mech / stem / pedals / whatever as they are NOT BROKEN.
Stuff has always broken. Stuff will always break. It's just how mountain biking is. Obviously some brands specialise in broken things - Cane Creek, Hope (sorry people) - but people love a good moan about how stuff always used to be better etc.
ps: Isis bottom brackets, they lasted for ages... ahem. :-/
Deore stuff was pretty good quality back in the day, the highpoint of value was probably Dx. Meanwhile , down in the basement where people rode stuff like Exage trail (farmyard) things broke pretty often, particularly hubs and bb's as I recall.
I'll have Bruce on thinking commuter bikes shouldn't have hydraulic brakes as they are way less maintenance than V's, let alone canti's, unless you mean working just means flapping around hopelessly.
I'll admit, hydraulic disc brakes work great an are maintenance free. Until you take them out of the shed one day and the pads are scraping the away happily on the discs (see my thread from the other day). Then they are very much not maintenance free.
The worst that can happen with Vs is that the rubbing is annoying, rather than making the bike unrideable.
Also, fixing problems with Vs is easy. I don't really have the option of firing up the compressor at 10 at night so I can disassemble the calipers, get the pistons out, clean the pistons, ,clean the calipers, reassemble, and then thoroughly bleed.
I suspect you guys might not be commuting in quite the same conditions as me. Or you just never discovered the joys of non-full length XTR cables. Pretty much maintenance free and when it isn't maintenance free it's takes around 10 seconds to solve.
Stuff has always broken. Stuff will always break. It’s just how mountain biking is. Obviously some brands specialise in broken things – Cane Creek, Hope (sorry people) – but people love a good moan about how stuff always used to be better etc.
I’m old enough to have the experienced the early 90s lightweight craze where everything broke.
- Purple x-lite bars that snapped going down a kerb.
- Pace RC35s where the dropouts unbonded from the legs and stopped working when it rained.
- Crappy Shimano groupset like GS and exage
- Constant replacement of canti and v brake pads
- Pitted Shimano hubs after 2 months
- Flexy steel and ti frames that snapped
It wasn’t any better 30 years ago; it was worse!
Yeah, most (all) of that is just bollocks. Hydro and Di2 makes for almost no maintenance and totally predictable performance in all weathers.
This. The ultimate in reliability and near-zero maintenance on a commuter bike would be a Di2 hub gear (Alfine 8 or 11) with a belt drive and hydraulic disc brakes.
That said, a mate of mine has a stripped down hydro disc-braked touring bike set up as his commuter. 1x drivetrain and the cheapest parts that retain durability and reliability. It's his year-round commuter doing most miles on canal towpaths and old railway lines so it gets absolutely covered in gritty muddy shite (in spite of running full proper mudguards with maximum extensions).
He hoses it off once a week, pops some lube on it and accepts that the drivetrain will last a year before all needing to be replaced. The GRX shifters have stayed fine, it's just the drivetrain parts and brake pads he replaces.
The worst that can happen with Vs is that the rubbing is annoying, rather than making the bike unrideable.
Until you wear through the rims.
Older shifters generally last forever, this seems odd.
I’m old enough to have the experienced the early 90s lightweight craze where everything broke.
Yes, I'm amazed by modern XC bikes. 25 years ago, XC bikes were basically like gravel bikes with flat bars. A modern 29" XC bike is a couple of pounds heavier than an old 26" XC bike but has brakes that work, suspension that can suck up stuff that you needed a DH bike for back then, and tyres that roll fast and grip like shit to a blanket.
Deore stuff was pretty good quality back in the day
The current Deore 12s is REALLY good.
Well, really good in the sense it just works smoothly without any sort of faff or things breaking. The only negative is the cassette being so big and heavy it keeps spinning when you stop pedaling abruptly!
The Entry level / mid-tier MTB market is in a bit of a golden age at the moment. Between good kit and big discounts we're back to a level where £1500-£2000 FS bikes from a lot of brands are genuinely only incrementally not as good as the superbikes rather than it being just a couple of examples of good bikes from non-mainstream brands. Yes XX1 AXS and Pike Ultimate's are better than Deore and Z2's, but it's at a point where you have to sit down and explain in quite a boring way why they're better.
Yes, I’m amazed by modern XC bikes. 25 years ago, XC bikes were basically like gravel bikes with flat bars. A modern 29″ XC bike is a couple of pounds heavier than an old 26″ XC bike but has brakes that work, suspension that can suck up stuff that you needed a DH bike for back then, and tyres that roll fast and grip like shit to a blanket.
+1
And it's across all levels too. My Escarpe is from a distance not that different to my old (heavily upgraded) Pitch. Except when you ride it every single thing is better. Well not everything, but the bit's that aren't cost <1/3rd the bits on the Pitch did and are damn close in performance/weight.
I’m old enough to have the experienced the early 90s [...] where everything broke
More like. It wasn't just the lightweight stuff that was terrible, it was all pretty terrible. essentially roadie kit pressed into service as off road capable when mostly it just wasn't. Riding in the early noughties; every group ride I went on stopped for a mechanical or puncture (or 3). I still carry all those tools around with me now, but I genuinely can't remember the last time I used a multi-tool to actually fix anything. I might have adjusted something or tightened it a bit, but had to fix something that's broken? Ages ago.
Bollocks vees are better than discs for a commuter! The braking is worse for half the year, they wear out the rims, and crucially, you have to keep wheels in true to stop them rubbing.
I used mechanical discs and they were a pain having to take up the wear with the pad adjusters. This was when I could, because the adjuster hadn't seized, which happened a lot.
If your discs are fine until your pads run out and then you have trouble, then that shit maintenance would have similar ramifications for rim brakes.
Stuff changes, technology moves on.. Sometimes progress is good. This thread seems to have some very loud voices from either people who don't realize how bad a lot of kit used to actually be, or people who are still on cottered cranks and rod brakes because they 'don't need any new fangled stuff'
Unlike the above I have had to use various tools quite a few times on group rides.. And it's almost always older kit (and also lack of maintenance)
Well 50 years ago, everything was mechanical. You could take a bike apart and put it back together with a few basic tools. Imagine having a go fixing pro time-trial or e-bikes now.
Having said that, some companies have better standards than others. All Shimano gear is made in just a few factories so QC is very good - it's pretty rare something crap is released. You just pay more for lighter/stronger materials and better function.
It does stand to reason the more moving parts on something, the more likely it is to break/the more maintenance it will need. Chains are a good example - much thinner than they used to be (11spd versus 8spd) but work well if you maintain them and change gear more.
I would say overall, yes, parts wear out more quickly - an old 3 speed town bike from 1943 could still be going but I can't imagine a Specialized Venge being usable in 50 years. But you pay in weight!
I’ve not really found SRAM components to least any shorter than Shimano in the last 15 years (apart from their BBs which were crap back in the day). Whether that is because I look after my kit and am not a ham-fisted mechanic could be the reason.
I had to be some a decent mechanic and look after stuff early on as I was too poor to buy replacements, so a broken mech or brake would result in a bodged single speed FS bike or running 1 brake until I’d saved up a few pay days.
Bare in mind when you go to a shop their definition of worn out is on the basis of a professional giving you back a fully repaired bike, with no further issues to the repaired/replaced parts. It is an attempt (not always successful and subject to varying standards of workmanship) to prevent a stream of dissatisfied customers rolling back through the doors.
With bicycle drivetrains it is much easier to do this by replacing the lot with brand new components. Which in theory and the vast majority of the time are perfectly straight, free from damage/wear, with all pivot points, bearings, bushings and fixings to factory spec. Would you risk your reputation over a worn slightly bent mech?
Of all the components on bikes, bottom brackets are the worst for increased frequency of repair compared to the old square tapered standard.
With bicycle drivetrains it is much easier to do this by replacing the lot with brand new components. Which in theory and the vast majority of the time are perfectly straight, free from damage/wear, with all pivot points, bearings, bushings and fixings to factory spec.
That's very true but it's also a reflection of how much people maintain (or not) their bike. So many bikes get ridden, occasionally cleaned/lubed and only get taken to a shop when something is noticeably wrong by which point the entire drivetrain is usually all worn together so the only realistic option is replacing the lot.
I don't do that, I keep my drivetrain cleaned and I check it and replace the chain when required so it never needs "the whole lot" replacing in one go.
Bike shops are not a great barometer of what does/doesn't work and last because, by definition, they're only seeing what's broken. Also you'd be amazed at the customers who take a bike in for a "quick gear service" and are then astonished to find that the service is going to cost £300 of parts and labour because everything is wrecked. It's a testament to how good and reliable most bikes are that they actually keep working in those conditions.
Bollocks vees are better than discs for a commuter!
Really seems to have touched a nerve with some folk.
I suggest you come up to Scandinavia and try riding a bike with Shimano brakes through the winter ( keeping it in the shed) doing no maintenance and then tell me how awesome disc brakes are for commuters.
Until you wear through the rims.
I remember the last time I had a rim wear through. It was 25 years ago. Turns out these days it takes a long time to wear out a rim and it's very easy to check if it's getting time to change.
Not having the rims as a consumable is definitely a plus, but I'll still take rim brakes on a commuter any day of the week.
Worn rims was a regular issue when I was working in an Edinburgh bike shop - and then folk wouldn't believe that their most cost-effective option was a new wheel.
Just go fixed and have done with it.
Yep, brakeless fixed and all I have to worry about is changing the chain now and again, with rear cog and chainwheel every god knows when as they typically get changed for gearing reasons throughout the year.
Only other thing that needs some maintenance is lower headset bearing as I ride in rain with no mudguards but getting an SS bearing to hopefully help with that.
First (and only) rim I exploded was less than a year old. Since then I've getting years and years before having to change.
As others on here keep saying, technology (and materials) improve and some stuff unquestionably gets better.
Worn rims was a regular issue when I was working in an Edinburgh bike shop – and then folk wouldn’t believe that their most cost-effective option was a new wheel.
Yep - it's one thing to wear out a carbon road rim but the sort of people buying that kind of kit know that anyway.
But on a cheapo commuter bike with a rider who doesn't know or care, it's a real shock when they wheel their £200 bike into a shop for some basic repair work to be told that their rims are almost worn through and that it'll be £200 on a new set of wheels.
The response almost invariably being that if the whole bike cost £200, how can a set of wheels cost the same?!
I suggest you come up to Scandinavia
You’ll forgive folk for not considering it though? Would be a hell of a commute for most on here to get to work via Helsinki
