[Closed] DIY Swapping hubs or leave it to the professionals?

New hub will likely mean spokes are a different length. 100 to 135mm means they'll have to be longer.

If you don't know what you're doing, pay the £75, though that still seems a bit steep. Offer to strip the old rim off yourself?

IME of doing this for myself, often the spokes are close enough in length to reuse, but not always. In your case it's almost certain that you'll need new spokes.

Also from the shops point of view new spokes = no issues with them being blamed for broken spokes from a 'shit build'. Shops get a kicking when tired spokes break in new builds even if it's not their fault. A pound a spoke for decent ones would be a bit on the cheap side for a shop these days but even then its 32 quid just for spokes, plus labour, so £75 is in the right ballpark. It's also why I taught myself how to wheel build.

Spokes were £1.20 each and labour was £35 so they said around £75.

Maybe I'll just suck it up and pay the man on this occasion and learn myself wheel building on some old crappy numbers - I'd be foolish to think my first build would be good enough for what I'm after - a solid bike packing plus sized wheel.

if you have the hub and have to buy new spokes then is it worth buying a new rim so you're not breaking the 100mm wheel? or just buy a complete wheel?

You should be able to get good Sapim spokes and nipples for about 50-55p each. Hopefully you can reuse the rim tape. You might get lucky and find you can re-use half of the spokes, but if doing so make sure you identify and keep separate the ones to reuse, separating inwards from the outwards laced spokes.

If you can't lace it then you could looking for a shop or builder who is willing to build the wheel using your parts, and who might charge a few quid more because of that. You should still be under £75 quote you've got.

Lacing a rear disc wheel is a little tricky because many of the lacing patterns online are symmetric for rim brakes whereas rear disc should be asymmetric to account for the braking forces. Once you get your head round this and find an appropriate guide it is just like lacing any other wheel.

Lacing a rear disc wheel is a little tricky because many of the lacing patterns online are symmetric for rim brakes whereas rear disc should be asymmetric to account for the braking forces. Once you get your head round this and find an appropriate guide it is just like lacing any other wheel.

Ummm, maybe I'm doing it wrong, and I've built fewer than 10 wheels so am a looong way from being an expert, but not a single one has had a different lacing pattern on the disc side, and none have failed on me yet.

Op, to be honest that sounds like a reasonably fair quote seeing as the spokes may well have to be replaced for the reasons above. Especially as it's a SS so (and I may well be wrong here) the hub shell is presumably even wider than a 'normal' rear hub.

learn myself wheel building on some old crappy numbers

Don't use rubbish old parts to try and learn to wheel build. Immeasurably more difficult because you have a rim that's not quite true, spokes that are not quite the right length, corroded nipples etc. Don't need to be expensive parts, buy use new ones at least. Apart from the hub, you'll get away with that as long as you use the same lacing pattern and get the new spokes in the same beds as the old ones. It is a very satisfying skill to have though.

I’d be foolish to think my first build would be good enough for what I’m after – a solid bike packing plus sized wheel.

You'd be surprised. My first set of self build wheels are getting on for 5 years and many thousands of commuter miles old. Done a couple of Flanders sportives on them and many longer rides on crappy roads. Never been trued or broken a spoke as far as I recall. Get some good instructions, take your time and work methodically, it's not that hard if you're moderately practically mined.

Ummm, maybe I’m doing it wrong, and I’ve built fewer than 10 wheels so am a looong way from being an expert, but not a single one has had a different lacing pattern on the disc side, and none have failed on me yet

Possibly you're doing it wrong, possibly what I have written is slightly unclear and this has led to a misunderstanding.

https://www.peterverdone.com/wiki/index.php?title=Disc_wheel_Lacing

Not best practice might be a better way to put it than 'wrong'. I'm sure many wheels are laced symmetrically and do not fail. However, that is hardly a good argument for continuing to use a worse method when it is relatively simple to use the better method instead.

You’d be surprised. My first set of self build wheels are getting on for 5 years and many thousands of commuter miles old. Done a couple of Flanders sportives on them and many longer rides on crappy roads. Never been trued or broken a spoke as far as I recall. Get some good instructions, take your time and work methodically, it’s not that hard if you’re moderately practically mined.

I am kinda' tempted to take a crack at it myself, I'm skint/tight, have time on my hands and usually I'm not bad at applying practical skills. On the other hand I'm so fed up of this build I might just buy a rolling ECR on credit!

Get onto a online spoke calculator pop in your current setup and new setup and see if you need new spokes
DT Swiss is a good one https://spokes-calculator.dtswiss.com/en/calculator
Cheap Spokes from https://www.sdeals.com/index.php/home/wheels/spokes
Spokes from 35p each including nipple, so for 32 spokes £11.20 + post
2-3 hours of your time job done

If you can true a wheel that's gone wonky, that's actually ime easier than building a wheel from scratch. It's a wee bit harder to reuse a rim as it might not be all that naturally straight.

I mean, I don't want to understate it, I'm reasonably handy but it's nothing like as big a job as it seems.

Depending on the rim I think your front right spokes might only be slightly short on the new hub, if they were perfectly sized before. If they are currently a little long (spoke protrudes a mm or two from the nipple head under the rim tape) then you might be in luck. It's not sensible to reuse but a skinflint might be tempted 🙂

Spokes were £1.20 each and labour was £35 so they said around £75.

So you're actually saving £35 by doing it yourself?

The lefty is weird as one flange is smaller than the other, the larger of the two looks to size up to my Surly hub so maybe I could re-use those. The wheel & spokes are (looks) brand new (ebay) but for the price of those spokes I'd be happy to buy new ones. Even buying them and then paying £35 for the build is better than £75 outright. Maybe I'll strip the wheel buy the spokes and ponder the DIY option - then if I bail on that idea it's just the cost for a build (shop said I could supply the spokes if I wanted).

Spokes were £1.20 each and labour was £35 so they said around £75.

So you’re actually saving £35 by doing it yourself?

If I pay £1.20/spoke - yes

You’d be surprised

I was - my first wheel (and my second) has survived 2 BPW trips and a fair bit of abuse 🙂 I think you take extra care to get it right as it's your first - thing is though, unless you're going to do it often (btw, my 3rd build has been sat in the garage for over 6 months unfinished!) the £75 isn't that bad as you'll want/need to spend out on a jig, spoke tension tool and spoke key and maybe replace the nipples, anyway...
Unless, of course, like myself, you want the satisfaction of having built your own wheels.

ps. on the spokes - my spokes transferred over from hub to hub, but I didn't realise they were slightly different lengths... that was frustrating I can tell you!

One of the main reasons shops don't reuse spokes on hub swaps is that they will cut the old hub out with bolt cutters rather than unscrew possibly seized nipples, it takes about a minute vs possibly 20 mins buggering about, time is money. Also used spokes have had the stresses of riding and are more difficult to tension quickly.

If you are buying new spokes and new hub then just buy a new rim as well, save a lot of faff and have spare wheels.  It is way easier to build a wheel with a completely true rim that with one which may be out of true.

If you are buying new spokes and new hub then just buy a new rim as well, save a lot of faff and have spare wheels. It is way easier to build a wheel with a completely true rim that with one which may be out of true.

Unfortunately it's a pretty niche fork with 135mm dropouts (Salsa Enabler), so a build was always likely - foolishly I thought it would be a simple hub swap and did not consider the spoke length.

Find me a 135mm spaced 27.5+ front wheel for 3.0" tyres and I will buy it. TBH I'm considering selling it all off now and starting from scratch.

Lacing a rear disc wheel is a little tricky because many of the lacing patterns online are symmetric for rim brakes whereas rear disc should be asymmetric to account for the braking forces. Once you get your head round this and find an appropriate guide it is just like lacing any other wheel.

Unless any of these recommendations are accompanied by published test data on what happens under load, I wouldn't place too much weight on this issue. There are arguments based on what happens under load, but these work both ways. One type of argument is that the crossing point should be pulled in under load to prevent fouling - but that means lacing one way on the disc side (prevent fouling on the caliper under braking) and the other way on the rear drive side (prevent fouling on the derailleur cage when pedalling in first gear). And spoke/caliper fouling may not be an issue with your setup. Another argument is that the outside spokes should be the ones loaded under braking as those spokes are better supported by the flange. And so on.

Where are you based baileyswalk? It's a long shot, but I'd build it for you for nowt. I enjoy doing them and don't have enough bikes to keep me that busy.

Unfortunately it’s a pretty niche fork with 135mm dropouts (Salsa Enabler), so a build was always likely

Its still easier with a new rim

Where are you based baileyswalk? It’s a long shot, but I’d build it for you for nowt. I enjoy doing them and don’t have enough bikes to keep me that busy.

Ayrshire/central belt, Scotland - I doubt I'm that jammy tho.

Its still easier with a new rim

This has cropped up a few times... the rim is new but I take it you mean never been laced before. So, how much trickier is it, presumably it's pretty common that's what the shop was going to do. I could get a new rim off the peg but it would cost the same as the whole wheel and tyre just purchased. Even though it turns out the hubs and spokes are usless I've just forked out for a tyre & pre-laced rim it would appear.

Youtube is great these days with wheelbuilding, but you do need some of the kit, buying spokes/nipples/washers and so on are easy enough as well, i buy my stuff from https://www.spokesfromryan.com who are great, give them the info on the rim/hub and pattern you're using (3x) and they'll confirm the spoke length.

As others say, i prefer building new to truing, as you never get a stuck nipple or have to go round and undo them all to get the tension even around the wheel!

It’s not sensible to reuse but a skinflint might be tempted 🙂

There's no reason why spokes can't be re-used if the wheel hasn't been over-stressed - I have 40 year old spokes on some wheels. Replace the nipples though. Whether the rim is used or not is immaterial as long as it's straight / undamaged / unworn.

Sod it. Spokey purchased... and so it begins.

Well done. I'm in Cheshire BTW, so my offer was no good anyway.

Unless any of these recommendations are accompanied by published test data on what happens under load, I wouldn’t place too much weight on this issue.

I'll stick with what Shimano, Sapim and Magura recommend, given they make and test wheels, spokes and disc brakes or all three, even if they don't publish their test results. Who exactly is recommending the opposite approach, except for Chris King.

There are arguments based on what happens under load, but these work both ways. One type of argument is that the crossing point should be pulled in under load to prevent fouling – but that means lacing one way on the disc side (prevent fouling on the caliper under braking) and the other way on the rear drive side (prevent fouling on the derailleur cage when pedalling in first gear). And spoke/caliper fouling may not be an issue with your setup. Another argument is that the outside spokes should be the ones loaded under braking as those spokes are better supported by the flange. And so on

This is nonsensical. All your arguments are in line with the Shimano/sapim/Magura pattern and logic! So what if you have to lace differently on each side on the rear? Look at the diagram, you have the outside spokes supported by the flange and being tensioned under braking.

Replace the nipples though.

Why would you replace the nipples from a new wheel? If you make a mistake and have to relace a wheel would you throw the nipples away?

But shirley to pull the crossing point inwards you need to load up the inside spokes more than the outside spokes?

Getting very techy now, i like simple, 3 cross good, only change if spoke length forces it, modern wheels are already asymmetric enough due to everything having some form of offset these days, bring back simple!

Who says that's more important then the other considerations?

Once you factor in 32 new spokes at about a quid each, and if the LBS is good and experienced, £75 is not an unreasonable price.

I'd imagine an lbs would be reluctant to botch the job, so would probably insist on new spokes as the won't know what sort of life the old ones have had, and risk complaints /failures.

rear disc should be asymmetric to account for the braking forces.

Hundreds of wheels built here, this is shite.

Oh and axle.wisth does not relate to spoke length.

It's not shite, it's minor. Lacing symmetrically can be both 'good enough' and also not be the best pattern, right? Does doing it symmetrically provide sl any benefit apart from being easier for you to lace up?

This factor is sufficiently outweighed by the major factors, tangential spokes, sufficient tension and good stress relief that you can choose to ignore it and still build wheels that don't fail. Similarly, you can lace the drive side the other way too. Whereas if you radially spoke where torque is transmitted, apply insufficient tension or don't stress relieve you will have failures relatively quickly.

What way do you lace a front wheel on the disc side cynic-al?

Flange width does affect the calculated spoke length a little bit, it's just that the other side of the triangle is so much longer that it's normally insignificant.

Getting the new rim is easier as it means you have a complete lefty wheel to sell which would go some way to mitigating the cost that will be incurred anyway.

So you’re actually saving £35 by doing it yourself?

Only if you don't place any value on your own time and the builders expertise. My time is worth more than that and I don't have enough of it. YMMV.

OP there are a few shops I'd go to in the area, Walkers in Kilmaurs, probably Sprockets (though their rates are best described as pricey) or Carrick if they can get it done in a reasonable time. Would probably make the trip up to Wheelcraft though.

Good luck though, learning new skills is never a bad thing.

Hundreds of wheels built here, this is shite.

I heartily agree, I think Mr Harvey is massively over complicating the issue.
Maybe not hundreds of wheels personally, but probably 60+ over the years for personal use and others.

I'm also fully ok with reusing spokes, nipples and rims for my own wheels. As long as they're not bent or rounded off then IMO they're fair game.

I've built many a wheel out of recycled bits, some of which have been properly hammered.

Hmm, I'm still not seeing any argument for doing it that way except that it's the same way you've always done it 🙂

Hmm, I’m still not seeing any argument for doing it that way except that it’s the same way you’ve always done it

But if the way one has always done it works, and has never resulted in a spannered wheel, then why the need to change?
Should one change just for change's sake?
I've experimented with plenty of lacing patterns and directions over the years, and always returned to the simplest iteration.

I’ve only ever seen non-symmetrical lacing applied on rim braked wheels and factory disc wheels with minimal spoke count. On everything else for MTB it’s been either 28 or 32h using a symmetrical, but obviously offset pattern. On road/CX bikes, it tends to be either 24/28 or 28/28 in a 2x or 3x lacing pattern as above.

This is the same technique demonstrated in Roger Musson’s wheel building guide.

I’ve built everything from aluminium and scandium rims upto carbon and from 16h rim braked wheels upto 36h Alfine wheels, everything with discs has been symmetrical, everything with rims was radial front, radial NDS rear and 2x DS rear.

I’m probably over 60 wheels now. No failures, no broken spokes, and always using lightweight DTRev/Sapim D-Light or aero spokes.

No, you should change when you've weighed up the arguments for and against change and are convinced.

I've already repeated the arguments for lacing the disc side that way above, which to be honest are not mine, they are from Shimano, Sapim, Magura, DT Swiss, Leonard Zinn, Gerd Schraner and others, collated at Peter Verdone's page.

Very simply it is that when torque is transmitted from hub to rim these spokes should be in tension and supported by the flange. The same logic applies to the driving forces on the other side of a rear, although since braking forces are higher than drive forces they're more important.

On the other side of the argument you have Jobst Brandt and Ric Hjertberg suggesting that neither drive nor braking forces are significant overall, so you can do it whichever way you like, and the caliper clearance idea is an argument for staying symmetric per Chris King.

I guess I'm coming round to the arguable either way position. Personally, I find it easy to lace either way now, and I think there's more merit to the arguments for asymmetric and know that it's a minor issue in building a strong wheel.

The wheel building guides I’ve seen didn’t seem to think a disc wheel needed to be built particularly different. The one I used is Sheldon Brown -
I’m not sure what the Roger Musson one says.

I’ve only built 3 sets of wheels so far, all mtb disc wheels, and I built them all with 32 spokes and a standard 3 cross pattern. Can’t see any issues so far - does having a disc brake put particularlu more stress through a wheel structure than either the torque from pedalling or rim brakes?

Not looked in here since I decided to build the wheels, good to see some healthy debate but you lost me on asym...

Thought I'd follow up in case anyone cares or should stumble upon this in the future...

I decided to get a regular rim with the same ERD as the one I was taking from the lefty. I taped these together and shifted the spokes over. That was easy. Anyone want to buy a lefty??

I then got the right length spokes from that sdeals site (cheers to whoever sent us that link) for 30p/spoke (DT Swiss) about £13 total - they were silver not black as would have been preferred but they actually look OK and I don't care much about spoke colour anyway - at least not on this bike.
(getting the right spokes is probably the most nerve wrecking step. Trust the online calculators, I used three or so and measured everything myself for a sanity check and all came out about the same size within 1 or 2 mm).

Laced up the wheel and hub using a youtube video and Rogers guide. Made a couple of erros along the way as wasn't paying attention but it was obvious when something was wrong and easily rectified after taking a closer look. In short, lacing the wheel was easy too.

Next, truing... not so easy. I probably spent about 2 evenings (6 hours?) truing and tweaking both wheels, at one point each wheel was untensioned and started again and I had to walk away at a couple of points too. But I then started to get a feel for it. Initially my changes were too much, once the wheel is under tension small changes make quite a difference and it took me a while to get my head around the impact. I tried various methods for gauging the wobble but found that a combination square taped to the fork worked best for me, and a guitar plectrum for finding the spoke that loose/tight and a DIY nipple driver from an angle grinded Philips screwdriver to get everything kicked off. Heard folks say that they can tune a guitar by ear but not hear a difference in the spokes - I don't get that, it seemed very obvious to me. The wheels weren't perfect but they were within 1mm and just as true as the wheels I tested off my other bikes that were recently serviced.

In summary, my advice to anyone thinking about giving it a shot would be to go for it. It's easy to lace the wheel and if it all goes tits up after that it's just a truing job down at the LBS.