[Closed] Dishonest bike buyer

Name and shame if they are a forum user...

Was the protective tyre still on the wheel? There's always a chance that it moved and the rim has gone into the tube.

Simplest way out would probably be a full refund on return of the bike?

If you didn't take any pictures of the bike before shipping, it is your word against the buyer re the damage
I would ask for return and refund him
I always take loads of pics off bikes if I am posting for this very reason

within 1 hour of taking delivery - refund .9 days - they can go swivel .

When you say bike box, do you mean the huge ones that Wiggle use or the smaller ones that you have to remove the front wheel, bars and post to fit a bike in?

I only ask as there's a chance that the front wheel might have moved in transit and the axle could have dinged the downtube. Long shot I know but you could claim off the courier if it was damaged in transit.

The nine days thing sets alarms ringing though and has probably ruined your chances of claiming off the courier.

[quote=CheesybeanZ ]within 1 hour of taking delivery - refund .9 days - they can go swivel .

if its paypal, you better move swift to de link accounts then. They will take buyers side.

CheesybeanZ - Member
within 1 hour of taking delivery - refund .9 days - they can go swivel .

I agree but Paypal almost always side with the buyer so the OP has grounds to be concerned.

This is why you should ONLY accept payment via paypal gift.

I dont use paypal but why does it side with the buyer?

Who made paypal judge Jury and Excecutioner in these things where they offer a refund without seeing anything?

I dont use Paypal purely because of the horror stories like this.

Advice if you suspect he's a cockbag and he wont communicate? (does he?) I wouldd find out where he lives and go and pick your bike up mate, it sounds like he has his cash and your bike , see if his car has a dent in it when you leave that wasn't there before.

Who made paypal judge Jury and Excecutioner in these things where they offer a refund without seeing anything?

On eBay, Paypal offer a money back guarantee. Any issue the buyer has, paypal always side with them as they have to honour this guarantee. I think this is, pretty much, their policy with non-ebay transactions too...

I bought a Wanga once (distance, via pics and courier) and it turned up with a sizeable dent in the downtube (seller was sure this was the courier) yet I let them know the same day it arrived. Lost my return postage but got the orginal amount of the bike refunded without resorting to Paypal. I'd never expect a refund sfter nine days unless I was:

1. Called way at the time and didn't havetime to unpack it for 8 days, with evidence. or

2. Er...

PayPal have always sided with the buyer, I guess they have a harder time selling to buyers - I guess that's why the seller pays the fees etc.

In my experience for a seller to 'win' a dispute, the burden of proof firmly sits firmly with them - the problem here is how do you prove it? You can send them pics of an undented frame, the buyer a pic of a dented frame and PP are left trying to decide when it happened, I personally think 9 days is far too long to "not notice" it, but with Xmas and all that they've probably got plausible reason to leave it in a box for a week or more. A shit situation.

Oh and beware the "partial refund" scam - I've been had once with it and three other buyers tried it on - cause a huge fuss about being not as described, threats of destroying feedback on EBay or how PP will **** up your life for months on end, but wait - there's a simple way to avoid all that pain, just give me 20-30% back and we'll forget about it - yeah right, offer a full refund or nothing and watch them piss, moan but ultimate do nothing.

Surely the guy requested pics before buying? Do these not show that side of the frame?

Just received a Mustang V amp head and pedal without the pedal. The time between me signing for the package and sending it back - about three hours because the post office was shut over lunch. Dishonest buyers, dishonest sellers (not you OP), **** the Net. I'll be 45e down in postage.

Thanks for all your thoughts. From the sound of things my hands are tied.

A number of lessons to take away here:

1.Take detailed pics of the frame from all angles (unfortunately I only took pictures from one side, duh).

2. Insure the package. I posted with Parcel2Go and opted out of paying £25, or so, for insurance as I figured that the bike was very well packaged and losing a massive bike box would be pretty darn difficult.

3. Don't agree to taking payment via PayPal. My fault again: at first the buyer planned to collect in person, then I agreed to an hour-long drive to deliver the bike to one of his friends, but eventually I agreed to post.

The decision is still in PayPal's hands, but I'm almost certain it's going to go in the buyer's favour unless PayPal accepts that 9 days is too long to make a claim over a very obvious issue. Also, I have signature proof that he signed for the bike himself.

...I just had a thought that my last grain of hope might be contacting Sunset Cycles of Cardiff, where he may have taken the bike.

They're located only 0.2 miles away from the buyer's address and are coincidentally an Orange dealer. As I noted to the buyer, the rear brake was in need of bleeding before the bike was ready for use, so there's a chance he got it done there (from an earlier conversation, I know he was keen to get out on it ASAP). Also, he claimed that he got the dent checked out by a "third party" source, which may well be them. Interestingly, this source allegedly claimed that the dent is a clear indication of a crash, rather than damage during transit.

I might give them a call tomorrow, but I doubt that they'd want to get involved, especially that this may relate to a customer.

Has anyone used Sunset Cycles before btw?

Worse case scenario return bike for a refund. Has he sent pics?

The chances of Sunset Cycles siding with you, some random bloke on the phone, or an actual customer that visits their shop are pretty slim.
As others have suggested the easiest way to sort this is to offer a refund on return of the bike and make PayPal aware that you still dispute the damage was there prior to posting the bike. Also point out to PP that the buyer personally signed for the package and then took 9 days to raise a dispute.
I have learned from bitter experience that there are some real twunts out there in eBay land and you need to do every thing possible to cover yourself, eg loads of pictures and always insure the package fully.

If I'm selling anything remotely big or of value I now take pics of the item with a news paper with the day and date on in clear view,I do this before I wrap it up then post it straight away,that way if there is a dispute I have pics of the item in the said state on the day it was posted,not much use to you now OP but may help others,I hope you get it sorted,issues like this are not good,like DIGGER95 said get your bike back and name and shame even if he isn't a user.

If the buyer signed for the package in good condition you've no chance of getting a refund for the courier costs.

If you had seen the state of my bike after it was sent back by crc after some warranty work you could believe anything can happen it transit.
They (crc) had packaged it better than when I actually bought it. Pipe insulation tie wrapped to all the frame tubes and forks then bubble wrapped on top. Some how and it involved a big claim, parcelforce pushed the rear mech through the back wheel. That badly it bent not only the hanger and mech but crushed the cassette and chain. I even got a new rear triangle out of the courier....

Interestingly, this source allegedly claimed that the dent is a clear indication of a crash

Who's the 3rd party? A cycling offshoot of the AAIB?

He probably crashed it after rear brake failed on him.

I'm curious/dubious why there were no pictures taken of the alleged damaged side. Was it damaged and you hope to get away with it? If im selling anything I take pics of every side/angle possible so the buyer knows what they are getting.

If the buyer is that close to Sunset Cycles that would put them right in the middle of studentsville. They would have received the bike as the place was emptying with all the students going home so the bike could have been taken elsewhere in this time, ridden and now brought back when the dispute was raised. May not have gone to Sunset at all.

I would get them to send you a full set of photos of the whole of the bike including the dent so that you can assess whether it's been used or not. If it's been used then they have accepted the goods IMO.

I always pack the bike so certain things have to be removed in order to ride, for instance zip tying through the pedal insert on cranks and then the crank to the frame/ zip tying the headset etc... A dent would be bloody obvious and should have been mentioned straight away rather than spend the time building up and then complaining.

Sounds like a chancer to me, if you haven't actually seen proof of the dent ask for it. Worst comes to worst offer a full refund less postage.

I've been stung on eBay by chancers as well, it's why it is my last resort for selling. Try to offload to mates / local riders first, then stw then finally ebay.

That reminds me I have loads to shift....

Loads of pics and postal insurance.

Small claims court?

Its all very well folk saying get pics off buyer but if coolbeanz has made the schoolboy error of not taking pics of the claimed damaged side of the bike prior to sale, its superfluous anyway as i doubt paypal/courier are going to entertain any claim without evidence that the bike wasn't damaged before posting. In fact it adds a certain suspicion that there are a lack of photos of the damaged side.

Sorry coolbeanz but i think you'll have to chalk this one up to experience imo

Yes, you can't prove it wasn't damaged, so not much chance of you winning this one, sorry.

If I'd sent out an undamaged bike and some clown took it out and damaged it, there's no way I'd want the bike back either.

As others have said though, the OP's lack of photos of the affected area does him no favours at all.

Everyone takes a load of photos showing both sides of the bike don't they? If I have something to sell, I take way too many photos and then try to pick out the best ones for my listing.

Yeah, you're probably right. Lesson learned.

It just makes me so angry that I'll have to accept a damaged bike back, one I really loved and looked after for many years.

The buyer finally sent through some photos of the damage, 11 days after making the claim (I responded asking to see some on the same day of the claim). I'll try to upload them for you to assess.

[url= https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5732/23674468419_ecfc313ecc_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5732/23674468419_ecfc313ecc_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/C52QDZ ]IMG_1076[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/piotr1989/ ]coolbeanz89[/url], on Flickr

[url= https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1704/23934148842_52ea6f8f51_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1704/23934148842_52ea6f8f51_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/CsYLAE ]IMG_1075[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/piotr1989/ ]coolbeanz89[/url], on Flickr

That looks like a dent from a ball peen hammer. Jus' sayin'...

How far from there would the axle have been when it was all boxed up?

Maybe ask to see photos of the rest of the bike and the ends of the axle and packaging to see if there is evidence of crash or transit damage elsewhere.

That's nasty. A blind man on a galloping horse would have spotted that on opening the box. Why would you even bother building it up after seeing that?

Whilst that does look like it could have been a movement of a wheel axle or knock in transit, why would it take 9 days to find it.

It isn't exactly hard to miss.

All seems odd and nobody knows what happened in reality so hard to see a satisfactory outcome.

Is he by any chance a student who realised he spent way to much money he couldn't afford and figured a way to get that money back.

Admittedly, the axle was near, but I made sure it wouldn't touch and I also bubble-wrapped the frame and inserted some cardboard between the frame and the axle as a precaution. I guess there is a small possibility that it moved, though to create a dent of this size would require an awful lot of force and would have also likely damaged the axle/wheel (which is clearly in one piece in the picture).

In any case, it's clearly a very pronounced dent and it just doesn't add up that the buyer didn't complain straight away after receiving the bike. I would not have even hesitated in refunding his money if he contacted me within a day of receiving it like this.

Additionally, the buyer initially stated: "I can send you a picture but it will be hard to see the dent because of the matt black colour of the frame". In my opinion, the worst camera on the market would capture a dent of this size, which makes me wonder whether it was helped out a bit, especially that the pictures came through 11 days after the claim.

Almost certainly not a student. We spoke on the phone before the sale and he sounded like he's in his 40s. The number 70 in his email address would support this.

That looks like a dent from a ball peen hammer. Jus' sayin'...

+1

Either that or the buyer* has dropped something on it or let the frame fall onto something pointed/angled.

EDIT:*or courier

It does look more like transit damage than a crash. I've received several items that I'm sure the seller thought was well packaged but just missed a critical area. I'd be asking for pics of the box and seeing if there was any chance of a claim with the courier. Getting more like one to chalk up to experience though.

Sometime ago my Paypal account was somehow used by someone I don't know in Indonesia, to buy stuff in Fort Worth Texas. I didn't get penalised financially over it but I did find Paypal less than helpful so I have not used them since.

Just to go back through the thread a bit, even having a shed load of pics wouldn't have helped as it proves nothing other than at that exact moment there was no damage. The only way to protect yourself from these shits, if they are indeed a shit as there could be a valid reason for the curious 9 day delay, is via insurance. Always worth having, as it's not loss you need to be worried about, it's damage via sharp pointy objects, being stood on, or generally thrown about[url=

like brick in a washing machine.[/url]

Also, Paypal are a psuedo-bank who somehow operate in a state that one of Schrödinger's feline friends would be proud of.

I think we can rule out deliberate damage - quite a high risk way to get the value of the bike back.

Not sure the 9 days means much either - I left a bike packaged for 3 weeks this summer.

Wonder if Paypal might consider 9 days to be longer than reasonable for a refund.

No pedals on the bike, and it looks spotless so unlikely to be crash damage. Looks like transit if I were to guess. Sorry it looks like you may have to chalk to experience 🙁

90% degree impact no paint flake or scratch i guess something very hard through the packaging not a crash i guess damage in transit , possibly last box in a van or such like door slammed on it to make it shut.

Rather an inflammatory title given the circumstances .

That looks very much like the damage to a frame of mine caused a few years ago during its handling somewhere in transit to the Alps.
The front wheel had moved in the packaging and ended up being bounced or crushed against the frame.
I only noticed the morning after it had been built back up in the resort as I took the padding off the frame tubes last of all.
Was no damage to the axle (Hope Xc) bar a tiny witness mark.
Sucks but I'd say transit damage.

legend - Member
How far from there would the axle have been when it was all boxed up?

Those are my thoughts too. 🙁
Had a bike damaged in transit and the dent looked just like that. The end of the axle had pressed into the downtube. I can only presume it had been stored on it's side and had stuff piled on top of it or someone stood on it.
The nine days thing seems a little odd though.

90% degree impact no paint flake or scratch i guess something very hard through the packaging not a crash i guess damage in transit , possibly last box in a van or such like door slammed on it to make it shut.

Hmm, OK, so I guess I can't rule out damage in transit.

Still, taking 9 days to file a claim and a further 11 days to send through some supporting photos is verging on ridiculous! It's the buyer's responsibility to check over the item for damage promptly. I think that PayPal's policy of a 40-day claims window for second hand goods is unfounded.

A text message and a photo 1-2 days after delivery and there would have been no argument. That's a 5 minute job with a smartphone.

Wonder if Paypal might consider 9 days to be longer than reasonable for a refund.

I think it's something like 45 days to lodge a dispute.

The only thing I am wondering about is did the buyer sign for the package as being received undamged? If they did, and looked at in isolation, I wonder if that would nuke the foundations of their dispute.

Regardless of this, the OP will end up taking the bike back and refunding. Just one of those things.

Yeah, but to be honest, it's also unreasonable to think that a buyer would be able to carry out a thorough check of the bike at the moment of delivery, especially a bike wrapped in many layers of cardboard and bubble-wrap. In any case, no mention of any confirmation of no damage on the proof of delivery receipt.

However, I still maintain that any complaints pertaining to clear visible damage should be lodged within 1-2 working days.

A blind man on a galloping horse would have spotted that on opening the box. Why would you even bother building it up after seeing that?

This.

if it was done in transit surely the box would have been damaged/market and the buyer would have noticed this?

I received a bike with similar damage once caused by the axle on the downtube there was no damage to the box at all. I had a quick look in the box to check it was a bike with wheels in the box and all looked packed properly

I then put it in the bike cupboard as no point building it up as I was going away on hols in a couple of days so it wasn't until almost 20 days til I noticed. So it's not always as cut and dried as it seems

In my case I just chalked it up to experience though as I could see what had happened and it was boxed up pretty well.and tbh it didn't affect the ride. Annoying though but such is life.

The signing for a parcel thing never works - everyone always just signs for the parcel even if the box does look bashed, and often it's not the actual buyer who signs, it's their wife/husband/brother/secretary/neighbour who doesn't know to look for damage.

Anyway, it's probably fixable if you get it back.

Have you asked him why it took nine days to notice? Has the buyer bled the rear brake?

If rear brake is bled I wouldn't want to refund tbh.

However, I still maintain that any complaints pertaining to clear visible damage should be lodged within 1-2 working days.

You can put this in your Ts&Cs next time then.

Not being unsympathetic, but I think you may be jumping to conclusions a bit. Buyer could have been tied up with Xmas stuff.

The immediate raising of a PP dispute is a bit off, but there are a lot of angry and distrustful people out there only too willing to assume the worst, eh?

Do we know who the buyer is yet?

Some people sign for things and don't open or inspect for days depending on how busy they are/job hours.

I had the exact problem with a coffee machine I sold on ebay. Sent it in the original packaging (un-dented). Said he could return it and I would refund (he pays p&p) - refused. Offered the guy a discount - refused. In the end I had to knock something like £30 off the price just so he was happy. It was a brand new machine I got under warranty and he had it off me for 30% of RRP. IMO he's looking for a bit of money off or something - don't give it to him.

Some people sign for things and don't open or inspect for days depending on how busy they are/job hours.

....and don't contact the buyer once they have found time in their busy schedule to open the box, but go straight to a paypal dispute?

It's an aluminium frame much softer than you think.....my sons bike a dent a little smaller, hell knows how he did it though.

JeZ

This I what I think has happened.
He has received the bike,opened it and it's damaged,he's sucked it up and thought "bugger it I'll have it anyway".
He's then gone out for a ride with his mates who have said "that looks a mess","you should get your money back for that".
Gone home and contacted PayPal to save face.
Just a thought.

It's not aluminium. Every single p7 was steel.

P7 frames are steel.
It also looks to be courier damage, can you open a dispute with them? Even without insurance they have a duty to deliver goods undamaged.

Have you asked him why it took nine days to notice? Has the buyer bled the rear brake?

If rear brake is bled I wouldn't want to refund tbh.

ctk, I have contacted the buyer again. As yet, no response or explanation for the 9 days. One development is that I managed to identify the bike shop where the bike was taken to get checked over. The guy I spoke with remembers the buyer coming in to get the dent checked out, but doesn't remember any backstory being given. However, he kindly offered to check whether the rear brake was bled. I guess I'll soon know.

Do we know who the buyer is yet?

granny_ring, I don't want to name any names at this point. As some people have pointed out, the whole dispute might be down to the buyer's complacency, rather than dishonestly. Until I get to the bottom of it, I'm going to keep the identity confidential.

It's an aluminium frame much softer than you think.....my sons bike a dent a little smaller, hell knows how he did it though.

jezzep, it's a steel frame, not aluminium, so it should hold up much better with a dent. In fact, the guy in the shop said the damage wasn't catastrophic, but given time would be a weak point. Regardless, it's evidently damaged.

Looks similar to a dent that happened to a bike of mine that got flown out to Nepal. I spent a lot of time carefully packing it in a cardboard box with pipe lagging, bubblewrap, spare tyres etc and the front wheel axle still managed to put a dent in the frame. But, that was being manhandled by 2 different airlines.

And, if I was buying something like this, costing quite a bit of my hard earned money, I'd be quite excited about it and open it and inspect it the day it arrived! So I don't quite get why it's taken them so long to get back to you? Really in 10 to 15 mins you can get it out the box and inspect it, then if it's damaged in transit you can then claim against the couriers straight away.

I've seen damage like that on poorly packed bikes - usually with no damage to the box. In our situation we're always keen to get the bike unboxed and built right away in order to check for damage and to find any other broken or non-working parts. We always send photos of any damage back to the customer.

In a 1:1 situation like yours there is every chance that similar transit damage has occurred and that the buyer didn't unpack and build the bike immediately on arrival (I've had a Marley frame in my garage for over a week).

Your chances of getting anything from the couriers ate going to be zero if you didn't pay for insurance.

Hmm, I can see that inspecting an item for damage is quite a grey area, especially as far a second hand items are concerned.

In my opinion, damage can be broadly categorised as 'obvious' and 'hidden' (for sure, there will be exceptions).

I would categorise a big dent in a bike frame as 'obvious' damage that can be easily identified with a naked eye. By contrast, if you bought a RockShox Reverb with damaged hydraulics, it would be reasonable to assume that you're unlikely to find out about this until you fit it, i.e. 'hidden' damage.

As such, once the damage is categorised, I think different claim periods should be deemed as 'reasonable' for each category.

In the case of 'obvious' damage, I think that a reasonable length of time to contest the condition of an item would be much shorter (in my opinion, 3 working days max), unless the buyer can prove that it was not them that collected the parcel and that they had a valid reason preventing them from inspecting the item in the given time window. I would go as far as saying that as part of any sales contract, it is as much the buyer's responsibility to make a prompt visual inspection of the item, as it is the seller's to describe the item accurately. After all, if the seller doesn't find out in time, it may prevent them from seeking compensation from the courier and the item itself may also devalue over time.

In the case of 'hidden' damage, I would agree that the length of time stipulated by PayPal to make a claim (40 days I think) is reasonable. If you buy a component with internal damage, you can't be expected to fit it immediately to find out. The only caveat here is that the buyer should be able to prove that the item is unused, which, admittedly, might prove very difficult in the case of second hand items.

Please excuse my rambling now, but if my bike was indeed damaged in transit, and given the nature of the damage, I think that the 'obvious' category applies here and the claim should have been made promptly, especially that the buyer's signature is on the online proof of delivery receipt. Whatever the case, I doubt that PayPal has any specific rules surrounding these 'criteria'.

If it was damage in transit why did the buyer continue to build the bike in full? If I had left it X days then opened up the box and laid out all the bits I'd inspect and notice that. Even if not so as soon as you put it in a workstand you'd notice it. Then I'd stop doing anything more and photo it

Unless- he gave the box etc to a bikeshops. The mechanic would build it assuming you'd bought it that way or something was lost in communication and it was mentioned at the till when the bike was complete as the manager wanted the build paying for in full.

I'd want alot more info. I'd also have sent it fully insured.

Whenever I've had something like a frame or forks I'm eager to get it built that day and test ridden. Maybe that's just me...but I query the long gap from receipt to photo/dispute.

One person's "valid reason" for not inspecting immediately is another person's toddler with chicken-pox, or family visiting for the holidays, or similar. I'd be a bit miffed that they went straight to Paypal dispute (if I've understood that correctly), but I don't see any other option than to suck it up.

warpocow, I agree with you that the reason can be easily manipulated.

This I what I think has happened.
He has received the bike,opened it and it's damaged,he's sucked it up and thought "bugger it I'll have it anyway".
He's then gone out for a ride with his mates who have said "that looks a mess","you should get your money back for that".
Gone home and contacted PayPal to save face.
Just a thought.

It seems to me that a variation of this scenario is most probable version of events.

Also, I just noticed in the first photo that it looks like the rear brake was indeed fiddled with as the cable has popped out of its guide on the seatstay - this wouldn't happen on its own.

However, the bike shop guy got back to me saying that he just checked and they didn't carry out any work of the rear brake.

To be honest, it's not a big job, so the buyer may have bled it himself. I guess I'll soon know, as from the sound of things the bike will likely be getting sent back to me.

coolbeanz - Member

2. Insure the package. I posted with Parcel2Go and opted out of paying £25, or so, for insurance as I figured that the bike was very well packaged and losing a massive bike box would be pretty darn difficult.

You took a chance on any loss or damage to contents by saving £25, your gamble never paid off. Only option now is to either partial or full refund.

bruneep, while this is true, assuming that it did indeed get damaged in transit, even if I had insurance, it would be too late to claim. Parcel2Go only allow claims within 14 days and given that the photos came through 20 days after delivery was made, I wouldn't have been able to claim anyway. As I said before, I would have happily refunded the money had the claim been made within a day or two.

OP, fair enough if you don't want to name the buyer because having read the thread again some of the 'blame' does lay with you I feel, as others have said.
I get that your really pissed off about it, especially with the delay, which does put a shadow of doubt over the buyer but hopefully lessons learned. You have no way it seems of proving if it was damaged in transit or buyer is having you over and I doubt you will find out...?
Fingers crossed it does end well.

Over the years I have received a damaged frame which I bought off here. It was kind of well packed but not well enough to cope with the Parcel Force boys/girls who had laid box flat and stacked other stuff on it = snapped chainstay.
The other time was when I bought a new bike which was very poorly packed and frame & forks got scratched by the wheels.

My advice, to myself included is.....
- Take lots of detailed pics.
- Pack the goods well
- [b][u]PAY[/u][/b] for insurance to the value of the goods.

Good luck anyway.