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When I did a bit of MTB (as a punter) with Neilson 12 years ago I was surprised at the 'guide's' approach of dismounting and inspecting the supposedly tricky sections. My view was that I'll see from the bike what it's like and if it's too hard I can always stop and get off ( not like WW kayaking where the trail keeps moving whether you like it or not)
Then in general terms I've always biked with peers and it's everyman to make their own decisions.
Then the family came along and a different dynamic came up. Generally I'd encourage the kids slightly beyond their comfort zone and it was usually all good. In fact the only problems occurred on fastish jumps rather than gnadgery tech. I knew their level, they knew mine and so we were able to make the right calls following each other down trails in the Alps, Finale etc. Sometimes I'd stop and explicitly tell them not to try a section, or sometimes suggest they shouldn't try a section.
At L2 Guide level the terrain is supposed to be relatively easy, although it's slightly tricky to define as "rideable by the whole group" since that is impossible to define until the whole group has tried it, by which time it is too late.
Anyway, getting to the point eventually.... Tell me how you approach guiding people you are responsible for down increasingly difficult tech. For the sake of argument, a lake District bridleway that gets steadily trickier and trickier until the hardest impossible section. Ie, there will come a point for everyone in the group where they can't ride it.
Tell me as a client how you would like your guide to approach this...
*Dismount and inspect the tricky bits as they come?
* Verbal prep to say follow me until it gets too hard, at which point dismount and regroup
* TBC
* Pile down it in a steady train. We're all experienced competent mountain bikers here and we're happy to make our own decisions
Disclaimer: I'm a little bit cautious about posting this in case I get roasted. I'm not posting because I don't have a view and don't have my own strategy. I'm posting here because I am aware that there are some highly proficient guides and cyclists here and I'm interested to learn as much as I can from whoever I can.
Number two. I will have a fair idea how competent the riders are* so will try to choose trails that are doable. On one trail you pass an unexpected double on the ride up so I'll point it out seeing as it's there, otherwise it's a quick verbal prep at the top then off we go.
* although I took a neighbour out last year and he dislocated his shoulder coming off 🙁 In hindsight maybe a trundle/steady train would have been better, as I suspect he fell off going too quickly trying to keep up on unfamiliar terrain.
Firstly there is a big difference in guideing a commercial group particularly if you are uncertain about the technical ability of the people you are responsible for. I have no guideing qualifactions but led shop "club" based groups for years.
If we had all people I knew and had ridden with before, I would just ride the trail and only stop and point out the difficulty of a section if I thought it was beyond some of the group.
With new people I would be quite cautious and point ouit problem secctions.
I don't ride in groups much any more and would never ride with a guide as I make my own mind up about what I do and don't ride, but I would also not blame the guide if I hurt myself.
If you're leading a ride, you ideally should be selecting trails that you know the group are capable off.
With unfamiliar riders, you need to be able to judge riders abilities quickly, and decide if they'll be capable of your original planned route, and adjust plans accordingly. On the rare occasion I still do any guiding, with unfamiliar riders, I'll always start on a relatively easy trail, where I can watch riders, and see how they handle more technical sections, before deciding on further trails.
A key thing I got from who I done my leader courses with, was always have alternative plans. They're never 'lesser' plans, just alternative plans. They may involve easier trails, harder trails, shorter loops, or longer loops. The key thing as a guide is to make sure riders have a good day. Having a good day generally doesn't include riders having to walk significant sections of trail.
I think it depends. I know when I'm taking friends around stuff, I'll do all of the above, dependant on group ability, and knowing what people are wary of.
My approach when guiding was before you get near scary stuff you make sure the riders have the basic skills, and on the first bit that looks a bit tasty, dismount, talk through the feature, how to choose a line, demonstrate and practice say a wheels on ground approach vs sending it vs I don't like it walk.
At that point you've given them the knowledge of how to make an appropriate risk assessment and it's up to them to use that knowledge as they go.
Once the guide has stopped and told me just how hard something is, I can't ride it anymore.
If the guide stops and tells me how to approach a tricky section, and avoids words like "crash", "death", "fireball" I might have some small chance if I just follow him/her.
L2 guide as well.
I regularly take a bunch of teenagers out.
My approach is to stop look at it we discuss possible lines what to watch out for and where the point of no return is. The braver/more capable ones will go first. This generally helps the others know what to do. We then session the section a few times until the group is happy or they start throwing themselves off it.
If it’s to difficult or they don’t fancy it on the day we dismount.
Most of the time I will have pre riden the route and chosen one that has other features that are similar to build them up to it. If they struggle on an easier section I would reroute to avoid the upcoming hard section.
If for some reason we take a diversion and it’s new then we follow the above.
But as I said I ride with these kids every week and I know them well and what they can and can’t do.
As a client I remember hiring a guide in Scotland for me and the family. Took him two hours to work out how capable we were after miles of fire roads and forest tracks. He only noticed after my eldest started hopping off everything he could find as he was board. Think he only read the brief that said “family” not the rest of his from where I wrote our collective experience. Needless to say we didn’t use them again.
Mist the last paragraph and the point.
I would expect you to read my riding history plan a ride with that in mind. Start off easyish trail in comparison to my "riding history" and work our way up to the gnar if you thought I was capable. Equally if you felt it was out of our capabilities then I would expect you to change the ride. If it was one section that was the only way past then I would expect you to say "sorry the next section is not rideable so we have a small section of Hike a bike".
Part of the reason I am paying you is for you to look after my safety.
MC has hit upon the key thing here:
If you’re leading a ride, you ideally should be selecting trails that you know the group are capable off.
I didn't manage to put this in the OP, but I guess the scenario I am thinking of is where you've been allocated a route rather than choosing it yourself. So picking up on these points:
With unfamiliar riders, you need to be able to judge riders abilities quickly, and decide if they’ll be capable of your original planned route, and adjust plans accordingly
And
always have alternative plans. They’re never ‘lesser’ plans, just alternative plans. They may involve easier trails, harder trails, shorter loops, or longer loops.
chosen one that has other features that are similar to build them up to it. If they struggle on an easier section I would reroute to avoid the upcoming hard section.
Start off easyish trail in comparison to my “riding history” and work our way up to the gnar if you thought I was capable. Equally if you felt it was out of our capabilities then I would expect you to change the ride
This is indeed what I do. ( What I left the TBC marker for in the OP). So last week we did Rushup before Greenlands Farm, Backtor before The Beast, then changed to Ashton instead of Cavedale.
Likewise in the Lakes we did the long route to Garburn, then only committed to Nan Bield once it was clear how easy Garburn was dispatched. Etc.
So, getting back to the point above, you've been told to do the Lakes 4 passes starting in Borrowdale, so the first proper Tech will be Wharnscale. You know everyone in the group will manage some of it and nobody in the group will manage all of it.
What's your approach?
( Apologies on advance for not writing my approach down. I know my approach already and it's yours I'm interested in 😃) many thanks.
A lot going on there. (ex MIAS L2 and briefly alpine guide here)
Me personally - I'd like to know about any mandatory, non-rollable sends ("3rd corner in is a left. Exit is a 6' stepdown. Nicely built, just carry speed and hit send") and I'd make sure I was riding a second or 2 behind you - close enough I could follow your speed and line, far enough back I could stop if you ****ed it. Otherwise, just let me get on with it.
In your case - are you PAYE or sub contracting? Who's telling you to take a group of people you've never met before round the 4 passes? If you're PAYE and it's not your insurance, I'd be reading my employers RAMS very carefully and doing exactly what that said. If I was subbying and it was my insurance, I'd be finding a different employer toot sweet (sic) if they were expecting me to guide that route without pre-assessing the group.
However...
Firstly I'd say 4 passes is not about technical ability (the only non-rideable descent bit I can think of is the landslip bit on Wharnscale, and I've seen that done), its about the mountain environment (weather!) and there being no shortcuts or retreat options. So its about how the clients deal with the first climb up Honister and through the quarries. Do they beast themselves to ride it all come what may - if so can they fuel that energy expenditure for the whole ride? Once off and pushing do they just get on with it (not much slower than riding), or is there much moaning and grousing and stopping and feeling sorry for themselves - that's what'll cost you time over the day. At the top where there's the quarry spoil heaps, I'd probably arrange for a bit of a dickaround, disguised as an instabanger opportunity to see what the descending abilities are like.
In the case of Wharnscale - as mentioned above, I don't see that as especially technical. Memory says just rocky point'n'shoot and I'd expect most passably competent riders to make a decent fist of it, but as there's the landslip section, I'd say something along the lines of "there's a landslip partway down - long right hander and easily visible as you come round it. We'll stop and regroup there". Its a big descent if you're not used to Lakes riding, so no harm in splitting it in 2, and it means everyone gets past the danger point in front of you.
Jon
Loads of good points there.
your case – are you PAYE or sub contracting? Who’s telling you to take a group of people you’ve never met before round the 4 passes?
Oddly enough the [potential] scenario is the actual guide assesment. Totally agree that it wouldn't be a great situation to be put in by an employer unless you knew they knew the group.
If you’re PAYE and it’s not your insurance, I’d be reading my employers RAMS very carefully and doing exactly what that said. If I was subbying and it was my insurance, I’d be finding a different employer toot sweet (sic).
Vraiment!
its about the mountain environment (weather!) and there being no shortcuts or retreat options.
Totally. That's the key thing about that route.
At the top where there’s the quarry spoil heaps, I’d probably arrange for a bit of a dickaround,
Yep, that was my thought too.
I tend to find screaming a swear word, then if it needs more warning I’ll throw myself at a tree, ride into the thicket or dramatically hurl my body over the bars. This is usually enough to warn those behind me that caution is needed.
Start the 4P in Buttermere rather than Honister? Then you have a good guide to abilities as the descents will get progressively harder (sort of). Of course it does mean you get to the most technical when you are all more knackered.