[Closed] discrimination against groups

Get back in your box and stop whining. You can still ride it, just be courteous to others

You are a member of CTC, BC and your local MTB organisation? If not get used to being in a minority user group with no voice.

You can ride. Just down before a certain time?

I've been up Snowdon many times. Sometimes on my bike, other times walking and the voluntary ban is fine by me - it's not the safest ride when there's walkers everywhere and doesn't make for a peaceful walk with riders ragging down.

If you're complaining about the general mistreatment of cyclists on the roads and in the media, then you have my full support however...

Genius offer some crumbs

And at what times/dates are walkers restricted?

And how exactly can an order to forbid all cyclists be voluntary?

And if it was voluntary then surely I. and all my biking friends, would have been asked to voluntarily give up the right to legal access.

To call it voluntary restrictions is absolute bollocks, it's a ban, pure and simple - your type are not wanted.

It's not discrimination. It's a fairly sensible way to share a limited resource. Treat it more as guidance as to when you'll have the most enjoyable ride.

Judging from riding up and down the Llanberis path mid week in March I'd certainly not want to ride it during the banned times anyway as there'd be far to many people getting in the way to carry enough speed on the descent to make it enjoyable.

Meanwhile public trespass gets wooly sock wearers.....well pretty much anything that feel like

I'm not saying it's not necessary, just don't try to sugarcoat shit - if you are going to ban a user group then at least be honest.

Or perhaps, in the spirit of fairness, walkers have a voluntary ban say one day per fortnight, so that bikers can enjoy the mountains.

Isn't this just something that has always just 'worked'?

I.e. If it ain't broke and all that...........?

no one else will say it.
shit stirrer

Isn't this just something that has always just 'worked'?

I.e. If it ain't broke and all that...........?

According to the front page it's not working because some mountainbikers aren't aware that they have volunteered to not use the mountain at certain times.

I presume this is the up and down before 9 (or is it 10) or after 6 request?
Makes sense to me. Snowdon get pretty busy during the good weather and Id rather not have a nice decent ruined by having to slow down for hoardes of walkers, nor do I wish to plough into them! Its because of ****s doing exactly that that have the voluntary ban put in place to start with. If riders could be trusted to behave then there would be no need for a ban, but they cant and there is.
I genuinely dont get what the OP and others are so aggrieved about, or have I missed something?
[i]*edit* Seen the front page, know what you're on about. Still think its a sensible idea.[/i]

a ban, pure and simple - your type are not wanted.

It's a tourist attraction, train-loads of them up there. I'd really not want to be riding on Snowdon mid-day on a summmer weekend anyway so it's a non-issue. Early am or at sundown, lovely. Different story when the crowds are gone.

Edit, just read the news item. "Concerns have also been raised about erosion on the mountain." What? It has a bloody railway line carved into it and a building on top. It's f'ed as far as mountain aesthetics go anyway : )

Of course it's a ban FFS - they've just called it something else to increase palatability.

At least with my idea of a one day per fortnight voluntary ban by walkers the access would be shared a little more fairly.

At least with my idea of a one day per fortnight voluntary ban by walkers the access would be shared a little more fairly.

Good luck getting the word out about that.

As a local, the OP above is right in that it's an agreement that just 'works'. The real question is about rightful access to places where there aren't hordes of people (i.e. access rights as in Scotland). Even if we had this, I see no reason for the Snowdon agreement to end. There's loads of riding in the area and plenty of time in the evening for a run up Snowdon.

We will just have to wait till the government says to reduce accidents on the road and after consultation with motoring groups riding on the roads between hours of ...am and ....pm a voluntary curfew has been put in place

That's shit stirring

Semantics. A ban can be enforced, right now they don't want a load of riders there during those times, I'd guess a few will be tolerated and not acted on, prob just advised of the current agreement (made in agreement with the bodies that represent us that is). But a load, regularly, could = a Ban. Enforced and acted on.

Do you think it would be reasonable to ride down a busy pavement packed with pedestrians, Snowdon on a good day is like piccadilly circus, a voluntary ban seems like a sensible idea.

So why not a one day per fortnight ban on walkers?

Be damned with your reasonable arguments, we're being oppressed god dam!

coz there's more walkers and therefore they spend more dosh on cakes innit

I'm still unsure why anyone would ride down it in peak times. One big game of skittles no fun for anyone.

So why not a one day per fortnight ban on walkers?

At pk -Not if access was shared a little more equally

At Jameso - sign at the bottom of each path

^ a bit late if you've just driven there from Surrey as a group of 10 in the yomping club mini-bus though?
Anyway.. what's in place now will only change for the worse if people ignore it, so it's a non-issue really. There's loads of other great riding in that area.

At Jameso - sign at the bottom of each path

No chance of that working. People would need to know about it before they drove up from that London.

Edit - beaten to it!

Its a non issue for now , who says other great riding in the area or even in other parts of the country won't become subject to being made to volunteer

Also if you set off from surrey to ride your bike make sure you know your banned from that hill for now

And if you've driven from Surray with your bikes because you didn't know that you had volunteered not to ride?

It's a fairly sensible way to share a limited resource.

Its would be crap anyway when full of walkers for both groups so I am not really sure what the issue is tbh
Ride it when it is most fun

And if you've driven from Surray with your bikes because you didn't know that you had volunteered not to ride?

It pretty much works for bikers because there are far less of us and word has got out amongst those that do that kind of riding.

Walkers are a much more varied group and many would not think to check such things.

Get over yourself, they are doing you a favour, do you know how ridiculous you look mincing down the hill on those ego chariots, thinking you are Steve peat.

:popcorn:

I've never noticed walkers coming down mountains on busy narrow paths at 30mph odd, so they're not likely to be a danger to others!

I first heard of the 'voluntary ban' a few years ago - I understood that it was implemented to protect MTBers from being permanently banned all year round by redesignating the bridleways as footpaths. So a voluntary peak season and peak hours only ban seems like a bloody good idea!

Hold on a mo reclassifying bridleways as footpaths,the only error in that thinking is that horse riding groups carry more weight than any flask carrying group out in the wilds, horseriders get uppery and don't take shit

A good idea is to make it scientific and ban each group for x months in summer to see who actually causes the damage

Reckon we will see similar in the Peak in the near future.

And further afield in busy areas.

And please, stop calling it voluntary, it's not.

I've been up Snowdon in the winter without crampons. Those slopes sure are slippery.

I did my ice axe training on Crib-y-Ddysgl many years ago.

[quote=dangerousbeans ]And please, stop calling it voluntary, it's not.

Why isn't it? What will happen to you if you ignore it?

[quote=catschroedinger ]Hold on a mo reclassifying bridleways as footpaths,the only error in that thinking is that horse riding groups carry more weight than any flask carrying group out in the wilds, horseriders get uppery and don't take shit

How many people ride horses up Snowdon?

Though in any case it would probably be a TRO or something like that, just banning bikes.

Chiefgrooveguru says it all really. 1000 walkers don't represent a danger to anyone, one storm trooper mountain biker enjoying the gnar is a menace on a crowded path. Observe the voluntary ban or loose Snowden all together, thats the choice.

dangerousbeans » And please, stop calling it voluntary, it's not.

Set up between Sports Council for Wales, Gwynedd County Council, the Snowdonia National Park Authority, the CTC, the Welsh Cycling Union and IMBA, the voluntary curfew forbids riding on Snowdon between 10am to 5pm. From October to the end of April there is full access for cyclists.

It's a very practical solution to a very busy area. Have ridden outside of the restriction Autumn-Spring and before the curfew and after. Being down in time for breakfast then on to something else was great. Went climbing after.

Aracer - you answered your own question about what will happen if mtbers ignore the partial ban. It will be made permanent.

Mike - I never appointed anyone to give away my rights.

beans - I suggest you brush up your reading and comprehension skills if that's the question you think I was asking.

You may not have but you can join the groups doing the representation. Honestly though it's something that works, it's a good idea and it works. Trying to argue this one down is fairly pointless, as the article on the front page states there is plenty of other stuff to do in Snowdonia.

Unless of course all you want is an argument.

I thought you asked what would happen if the ban was ignored.

Or did you mean if just I ignored it and no-one else?

[quote=mikewsmith ]Unless of course all you want is an argument.

I've told you once

Try reading the exact words, beans - it does help

OK aracer I give up, I'm just not as clever as you.

I agree then with you. If there is conflict over access then the minority should agree to go elsewhere or face being banned.

catschroedinger - Member

horseriders get uppery and don't take shit

Do many people ride horses up Snowdon?

If there is conflict over access then the minority should agree to go elsewhere or face being banned.

[quote=dangerousbeans ]OK aracer I give up, I'm just not as clever as you.

Gosh, it wasn't supposed to be an intelligence test. Here's what I wrote with the crucial word bolded:

What will happen to [b]you [/b]if you ignore it?

The point being that things which are not voluntary (ie compulsory) there is some defined consequence for the person not doing that thing. You ride Snowdon during the "banned" hours and there is precisely nothing anybody can do to you.

You're getting confused between things being compulsory and things having consequences. I volunteer to do IT support in school - the consequence of me not doing so is that the IT doesn't always work properly (note that is different to where something is compulsory as there is no direct consequence on me).

I agree then with you. If there is conflict over access then the minority should agree to go elsewhere or face being banned.

Is it because I is cyclist?

NW - that's what I said 😉

Oh ffs Dangerous - go and ride Snowdon through the crowds if you like - you've been given all the information you need to come to a reasonable decision. It's not the thin end of some paranoid wedge, whereupon we'll shortly be banned from the mountains, it's just a sensible idea to reduce serious land use conflict.

It's just semantics (as has been said).

"voluntary ban" is an oxymoron - voluntary agreement would be more accurate.

Other than using the wrong word - this all seems perfectly sensible to me. Do we have to legislate for everything? Can't we all just get along... think of the children, etc

[i]Recently Snowdonia National Park Authority has become aware that a minority of mountain bikers have been breaking the curfew[/i]

and

[i]Concerns have also been raised about erosion on the mountain. The threat in response to repeated curfew violations would be to ban cyclists from the mountain altogether, which clearly isn’t a good thing. [/i]

Now, I'm happy with the status quo, riding through the hordes of walkers is awful, and outside the curfew the mountain is quiet, the views gorgeous, and I've seen sunsets that made me stop and stare...However, those statements make me uneasy. 😐 That looks like the opening shots of an organisation making the way ready for something more: "Has become aware" ,"concerns over erosion" it's wording like this that's used to justify harsher treatment.

best get up there soon I reckon.

It sounds like you're (the OP) is arguing over a point of principle. Up here in Scotland (although I've ridden a lot and lived in England & wales) there are no such restrictions. However there is absolutely no way I would consider trying to ride one of the popular hills (say Ben Lomond) at mid day on a weekend. It would be no fun for me or the hordes of walkers. So, although I'm not banned from doing it, I just wouldn't.

Concerns have also been raised about erosion on the mountain.

Yes, I read that and raised an eyebrow.
Probably concerned that we're wearing out the steps of the cafe.
[img] [/img]

Calling it a curfew is a misnomer - maybe better to call it timetabling. What it achieves - if cyclists go up early -is they come down when walkers are going up - that means you are riding down and all the walkers can see you coming. Its better for them, but its also better for you. If you're coming down while walkers are also descending, walking with their backs to you, then apart from it being intimidating for them, they're more of an obstruction for you, they've less notice of you coming and can do less to accommodate you.

So the 'ban' is mutually beneficial, you get a better ride out of it and an excuse to eat two breakfasts.

Some interesting comments. As an administrator with NWMBA I know of the work that has gone into providing and maintaining access for ALL user groups on Snowdon. The Voluntary ban is there for a reason, and it is in place at certain times to avoid conflict and incident. Both NWMBA, local rights of way officers and other user groups agreed this was the best compromise, and a great deal of time and work went in to this.
We can't stop riders from using the mountain at any time, we can't stick a bouncer on each route to enforce this, so please, please be sensible. We are a minority group and as such we need to be head and shoulders above the rest and try to be ambassadors for our sport. If we stick to the ban then i am sure we will continue to be able to enjoy the mountain for a long time to come. When the time comes to revisit our access rights, if we show we can use the mountain responsibly that can only be a good thing.
Oh, and please dont ride down the railway line either. That is a no no anytime of year. 🙂

It's not very well worded from the parks authority, so I abridged and improved the statement:

Don't be a dick.

Whats the fuss all about, it's a bit of a lump with some rocks on it, whats the facination of "doing" Snowdon?
I did it back in the early 90's on my Klein Attitude and it was bloody horrible, far better riding in and around the area than a one up one down affair.
Pansies, get out and ride somewhere else far quieter and more fun and respect that others want to have access to this lump too without you lot of fullface helmet/pajama wearing/"to the max"/lucazade quaffing ponces hacking down shouting "strava" at every peaceful walker and thier Mum out for a bit of freash air.

Jeeze,
a
life
one
get

Reorder that if you are able to. 🙄

If you're riding for recreational purposes, why would you want to ride such a crowded route anyway?
People generally only walk up Snowdon because it's the default Welsh mountain to walk up.
I've never been there. Is it any better than any other Welsh mountain for cycling on, or is it a similar lack of imagination that draws cyclists there?

I reckon that if they want us off the hill by 10.00, then they should put an early train on for us once a week as an uplift session - Sunday mornings 8.30 departure sounds good 😀

bikebouy
Whats the fuss all about, it's a bit of a lump with some rocks on it, whats the facination of "doing" Snowdon?

.................................

Pansies, get out and ride somewhere else far quieter and more fun and respect that others want to have access to this lump too.

Oh the irony, a moronic attempt at playing the intellect if ever I saw one.

dangerousbeans - Member

Aracer - you answered your own question about what will happen if mtbers ignore the partial ban. It will be made permanent.

Mike - I never appointed anyone to give away my rights.

Um. The voluntary ban is about us demonstrating our responsibilities... 😯

If you're riding for recreational purposes, why would you want to ride such a crowded route anyway?
People generally only walk up Snowdon because it's the default Welsh mountain to walk up.
I've never been there. Is it any better than any other Welsh mountain for cycling on, or is it a similar lack of imagination that draws cyclists there?

We normaly organise a club ride once a year (before the restrictions), up the Llanberis path, down the rangers and along the telegraph trail. We make a good full day with lunch in llanberis too. The riders we often meet are just ticking off the mountain as done that, where next or are filling in a weekend with Snowdon on one day, trail center the next. It is a challenge but i suppose once you have done it, why do it again.

 

Mike - I never appointed anyone to give away my rights.

No, but did you ever volunteer or donate towards getting anyone to defend them?

Riding up/down snowdon when the ban is in place I am pretty sure would be a rubbish experience, I guess I'm ok with it, however...

Or perhaps, in the spirit of fairness, walkers have a voluntary ban say one day per fortnight, so that bikers can enjoy the mountains.

Woohoo, go redsox!

I won't comment on the voluntary agreement, but I rode Snowdon last October on a Saturday (not a desperately nice day either). From the top down to the railway line was bloody awful. Way, way, WAY too busy to do anything other than scoot/push.

I was also shocked quite how much the Ranger Path had eroded since I'd last ridden it 3 years earlier. Sadly I think it's become a victim of it's own success, hence the reconstruction work, now taking place.

I was also shocked quite how much the Ranger Path had eroded since I'd last ridden it 3 years earlier. Sadly I think it's become a victim of [s]it's own success[/s] weather

I don't get why anyone would go back and ride Snowdon again. Yes elements of the descent are good but that long a push up/all day for that?

The voluntary ban/agreement is essentially there for people who lack common sense.

The voluntary ban/agreement is essentially there for people who lack common sense.

+1

The end result of people lacking commonsense could well be a total ban...

This idea that we should be able to rag it down at whatever speed we like, whenever we want is the same attitude a lot of drivers have - and which is the biggest barrier to new riders taking up cycling (safety being the most quoted reason for not taking up cycling)

Regulation is only ever needed when people lack consideration or thought for the impact of their behaviour, and fail to exercise self-control

When we were there two riders came down not in control, not 'on it' just not in control at all. We (pushing up and a couple of walkers) had to quickly move sideways. We laughed but I remember saying 'do they know what their doing' (laughing to one of the walkers who was walking whilst chatting to us).

I can see why there was a need for restriction on riders.

Not sure "common sense" is the right word, I'd avoid Snowdon and other tourist mountains at peak times because I know what they tend to be like but I don't think that's obvious... Loads of people are shocked by how busy it is up there, easy to see how people could just be caught unawares.

riding snowdon during the voluntary ban times will be one good way to rub up other users/the media/general public in totally the wrong way, for the sake of some idiots misguided and selfish point of view. so don't do it

Sorry for the C&P offensive but...

This idea that we should be able to rag it down at whatever speed we like, whenever we want

is the same attitude a lot of drivers have -

and which is the biggest barrier to new riders taking up cycling

*this isn't something I feel strongly about, I'm not about to start a campaign but while we're on the subject...

I don't get why anyone would go back and ride Snowdon again. Yes elements of the descent are good but that long a push up/all day for that?

a)The Llanberis path is mostly rideable up now. (not the carry up to the Crib Goch station tunnel), but you can have a pretty damn good stab at the rest of it, wind permitting.

b) It doesn't have to be all day. A straight Llanberis/Rangers/Telegraph valley is what, 3 - 3.5 hours?

c)That moment when you're smashing through the boulders at warp speed coming down the back of Cloggy and you drop out of the clouds into brilliant sunshine with the lakes glinting and that ginormous view. That's what I ride bikes for.