[Closed] Disc brakes in the peleton by 2017

I hope that's true, I rode a the Belvoir classic sportive on sunday, apart from my disk braked defy I did not see one other bike with discs.

But they're not traditional!
But they're so heavy!
But they're going to slow down wheel changes!

Etc.

But, mainly, Campag need time to catch up.

I wonder how light they'll get?

Won't be an issue I suppose given the 6.8kg limit.

CaptainFlashheart - Member

But, mainly, Campag need time to catch up.

Never seen that coming !!!! 🙂

given that they've also banned working on bikes out the window of a moving car I can see bike swaps being the order of the day rather than wheels - otherwise they'll have too much disk rub even using the same hubs and rotors.

Mavic neutral service is going to become a bit tricky "Do you need 140 or a 160mm rotor? I'll have your calipers realigned in a couple of minutes once I can get the pads retracted and a bit of fluid out of the system as this disks a bit thicker than your old one and it's rubbing something rotten"

But, mainly, Campag need time to catch up.

Maybe they will have to ask Shimano to help them like they did with their EPS system.

I was told this by a pro-mechanic who is also a massive Campophile; he said Campy couldn't get the system to work well enough, quickly enough and Shimano had an interest in Campy having a viable electronic groupset because it would accelerate uptake and acceptance by making one available to the pro-teams, so they agreed to give some of their technology to Campag to help them to market. They did however, patent some of the more select componentry, such as satellite shifters, which is apparently why campag don't offer them.

given that they've also banned working on bikes out the window of a moving car I can see bike swaps being the order of the day rather than wheels

Imagine the amount of 4 fingered mechanics walking around, after trying to dial in a disc brake on the move...

[i]satellite shifters[/i]

Gear changes from space! They think of everything.

Mavic neutral service is going to become a bit tricky "Do you need 140 or a 160mm rotor? I'll have your calipers realigned in a couple of minutes once I can get the pads retracted and a bit of fluid out of the system as this disks a bit thicker than your old one and it's rubbing something rotten"

maybe Superstar could offer a neutral service...

Won't be an issue I suppose given the 6.8kg limit

That and the 3:1 rule are apparently up for discussion too.

On the one hand less restrictive development is a good thing, and we all know the best rider+team would probably win regardless of bike.

On the other hand, now that trickle down has meant that you could probably build a bike to the UCI limit for <£1500 it seems a shame to move away from it and strain the link between what you can buy in Halfords and what the Pro's ride (but then at the top end they must be struggling to sell DA/Red/SR since ultegra is now comfortably able to build into <6.8kg bikes.

Then again the manufacturers are in racing to sell bikes, and R&D arms race certainly helps that.

They think of everything

THEY control [u]everything[/u].

And,

, and we all know the best rider+team would probably win regardless of bike.

It's not about the bike. Hmmm, sounds familiar.

[i]THEY control everything.[/i]

I've always liked to think that any successful braking that takes place on my bike is the random outcome of a complex system.

I believe the intention is also to formalise axles and rotor size and spacing for UCI certified bikes as well so that neutral support can continue, if there are multiple breakaways on the road and only two team cars the neutral support becomes vital to keep things moving.

Current talk is that 142 x 12 rear and 100 x 12 will be the new 'road disc' standard that you'll need to have in order to get UCI certification.

Whist it's irritating that they couldn't just use 15 x 100 and let people repurpose old MTB hubs but at least they're trying to get everyone using the same thing.

let people repurpose old MTB hubs

A standard for axles / rotor size would be the easiest way forward, at least with UCI cert it should stay usable for a decent length of time. Trek / Giant / Fox / Shimano I'm looking at you here!

What's wrong with QR? There's millions of old QR hubs out there that could be re-used.

Disks I like the sound of (in the wet anyway), but bolt through, it's more pointles than L-shaped cranks. How many ridgid MTB's have bolt through forks? Very few (and the rest I've not heard of any problems with).

I think for front wheels where a quick wheel change is required a 15mm mtb type axle is probably the safest bet - they don't 'fail dangerous' the way that an improperly tightened in the heat of the moment QR could.

How many ridgid MTB's have bolt through forks? Very few (and the rest I've not heard of any problems with).

Mine does... as do at least two other riding buddies.

It'll happen due to the manufacturer push, but I'm still struggling to see the need or benefits when racing. Decreased aero and increased rotating weight, V's a benefit that isn't much of one for most road races. I'm pretty sure I've done plenty of road races even with 50 mph descents and never braked once. You brake in a road race and you go from 8th to 80th in an instant so there really isn't a need.

Can't wait for the fun of watching 4th Cats trying to outbreak themselves into corners at crits. At least skin grows back 😉

I must say now I've got a cx bike with 105 coupled to BB7 disc brakes, that getting back on my 105 caliper braked road bike feels a bit rubbish.

The ability to one finger brake from the hoods, in the wet, is pretty darn cool.

but I'm still struggling to see the need or benefits when racing

Yeah agreed which is why we will see them at some point. Plus as the older riders retire and the youngsters come through brought up on mtb & cross discs the shift will happen. Be interesting how quickly it happens though.

I hope that's true, I rode a the Belvoir classic sportive on sunday, apart from my disk braked defy I did not see one other bike with discs

I was there as well and there were a few disc cx bikes and one nutter on his xc bike. Don't recall any disc road bikes (not to say there weren't any though!)

It'll definitely be interesting to see whether the peloton goes fully disc straight off or whether the teams will leave it up to the riders to decide.

It'll happen very quickly and almost wholesale, the UCI will push this hard.

Having a 180 strong peloton coming downhill into a mountain switchback when half the riders in the group can stop considerably faster than the other half is a recipe for disaster.

The fact that the four drive train manufacturers will have new disc brakes to push and the bike brands will have new disc brake frames to promote will help thing along of course.

Having a 180 strong peloton coming downhill into a mountain switchback when half the riders in the group can stop considerably faster than the other half is a recipe for disaster.

You don't really ride a road bike like that though it's all about little inputs and carrying speed. Plus this case already exits with people running carbon rims.

Road racing is unlike us normal riders who may for instance need to stop at a T junction at the bottom of a hill. When you are racing the roads are closed, so you'd just carry as much speed as you can through the T junction.

Four?

Shimano, Sram, Campag, FSA.

FSA will have a full road groupo by 2017, they already have 2 sponsored teams who are currently running purchased Shimano but will be swapping over to FSA as and when bits become available.

Oh and regards

You don't really ride a road bike like that though it's all about little inputs and carrying speed.

If you can carry 50MPH round a switchback then maybe you should give Dave Brailsford a call and see if he has a vacancy for a descending coach.

[quote=hatter ]Having a 180 strong peloton coming downhill into a mountain switchback when half the riders in the group can stop considerably faster than the other half is a recipe for disaster.

Which isn't going to happen, as the limit on braking isn't currently the actual braking system. I'm assuming that all the people saying people will be braking faster haven't ridden a road bike with decent rim brakes.

I'm assuming that all the people saying people will be braking faster haven't ridden a road bike with decent rim brakes.

You assume incorrectly.

Don't recall any disc road bikes (not to say there weren't any though!)

There was one, I was riding it 🙂

Disc brakes are spot on for cross as well, they are definitely growing in popularity. It's probably helped that the last two world cup winners were on discs, and this years world champion is also on disc.

The Bicycle Committee comprises three sub-committees: the Wheel Committee, the Saddle Committee, and the Technical Committee that includes a Disc Brake Working Group.

Kill. Me. Now.

Which isn't going to happen, as the limit on braking isn't currently the actual braking system. I'm assuming that all the people saying people will be braking faster haven't ridden a road bike with decent rim brakes.

Whilst I don't think it'll be the Armageddon folk are anticipating I can see some 'issues', prob more likely in a brakeaway in the wet where one rider on discs can brake very hard and very late, whilst Mr rim brakes can't. I wouldn't fancy being at the back of a chasing peloton on rim brakes in the wet when those at the front are on discs.

There are plenty of clips of riders plain and simple over shooting corners where they can't generate adequate power, generally in the wet.

I'm not really bothered about the pro peloton, they'll probably force 'em all to change at the same time or not at all and they don't pay for their own bikes. What does concern me is amateur racing, what's going to happen there? We're way more likely to suffer from the "oh fark, he's stooping quicker than me" moments that'll happen with mixed braking than the pros due to less skillz and also less controlled racing. Are the national bodies just going to say after 2017 (eg) all racers must be on discs? That's messy!

Not for me thanks, think it's an industry driven blah blah.

#leavethebikesalone

How many times have you had something unexpected appear in front of you when on your road bike battering it downhill? Believe me it happened twice to me last summer that's why I've invested in a frame and shimano hydros and believe me the braking experience is now not a squeeze and close your eyes type thing but now a squeeze, steer, squeeze stop.... if I have to
Much more reassuring and for a big bloke like me making road riding a little more enjoyable ( not much ...but a little

[quote=njee20 ]There are plenty of clips of riders plain and simple over shooting corners where they can't generate adequate power, [s]generally[/s] only in the wet.

I acknowledge that in the wet the braking system is the limiting factor. In the dry any decent rim brake is powerful enough to pitch you over the bars - if there are clips of riders overshooting corners in the dry, then that's either because they're rubbish or because they'd have flipped the bike if they'd braked harder.

Correct, but as professional bike races take place regardless of weather yours is a moot point.

I can think of examples of riders overcooking corners in the dry where more power [i]may[/i] save them. Quintana in the Vuelta springs to mind as a recent one. If it's because they're rubbish and/or not paying attention that's also a moot point, more powerful brakes may make a difference.

You seem to be arguing the theoretical, rather than the reality.

In the dry any decent rim brake is powerful enough to pitch you over the bar

Only if your weight is in the wrong place.

Regarding axle standards, this months Cyclist magazine has a preview of the Synapse disc, here's what Cannonade have to say on the issue:

[i]"We did a lot of tests with the pro team and mechanics for wheel changes. It's a huge concern for them and an ongoing problem that we face with disc brakes in the pro peloton. We timed the wheel removal with the Synapse and found it was actually quicker by a few seconds than a regular fork and calliper brake. That is the main reason we did not develop a thru-axle design. We tested this also and it increased the wheel change time by four or five times. Also a thru-axle needs to use larger bearings in the hub, which means more weight and seal drag. We've tried everything and talked with a lot of people. The mechanics pointed out that a thru-axle is simply something else in your hand when you're trying to change a wheel and that's the kind of thing no one really thinks about."[/i]

My rigid MTB is bolt through at the front and rear too. Not sure why you wouldn't, except that the majority of rigid forks are (were?) QR only.

[quote=molgrips ]In the dry any decent rim brake is powerful enough to pitch you over the bar
Only if your weight is in the wrong place.

Even if your weight is in the right place - you can't shift it that much on a road bike.

Dry performance = similar. Wet, not so. Nor durability in muddy gritty conditions. Ability to keep racing with wheel wobbles, and lots more

I suspect we'll see floating callipers soon (can i patent that?)

Dry performance = similar. Wet, not so. Nor durability in muddy gritty conditions. Ability to keep racing with wheel wobbles, and lots more

Also, rims no longer need to be a braking surface as well. Allows for more interesting aero shapes and different strength/weight set ups as well.

Also, rims no longer need to be a braking surface as well.

While that may be true, I'm less convinced the calipers will survive winter roads any better than the rims did.

I'm less convinced the calipers will survive winter roads any better than the rims did.

Of course, your mountain bike calipers never go through a winter of grit and grime, do they....? 😉

I've had Shimano road discs since October, and ridden them throughout the winter, both on and off road. Still on the original pads, and the discs and calipers are just fine.

The advantage here is that, as with the bolt through, road bikes can benefit from all the years of development that MTBs have had with discs.

As above, TRP Spyres on since Oct (only washed the bike once which was the other day) and they're fine.

If, and I mean IF this does go through, I'd like to ask...

When all the photographers publish the pics of the racing, can they pwleeese airbrush out the discs.. Same with TV feeds.

Ta

#oldskoolcool

My disc CX bike has had one set of new pads in the 16 months that I've had it, the brakes work perfectly and in fact I can out-descend and out-brake any rim braked road / CX bike setup.

The wheels are stronger cos they're disc specific so much stiffer and lighter now they don't need a brake track.

Have to say, Brian Cookson has done more with the UCI in the last year than Pat McQ did in his entire time at the top. There's a new story every other week about better anti-doping, cameras on bikes, innovation, women's racing...
All really positive, long may it continue.

Not convinced there is much aero improvements to be had by removing the wheel brake track, as track bikes don't need them and their wheels look little different. It certainly won't offset the aero disadvantages of adding discs.

It certainly won't offset the aero disadvantages of adding discs.

I'd be genuinely interested to know if there's any way to work out if the marginalgainsaero(TM) advantages of rim calipers add more to the overall speed of a road bike than the ability to brake later and with more control.

Of course, your mountain bike calipers never go through a winter of grit and grime, do they....?

Yup, but not salt (not my caliper, just remember seeing on this forum).

[img] [/img]

My bikes always seem to get 10x more wear in the few weeks when the roads are salted than in the rest of the winter.

I've had my CX'er for 8 mths now.. Gone through 2 front and 1 rear set of pads.. (SRAM)

I'd say if you are getting better than this you are not using the bike correctly, or poncing about on the road, if that's the case hand it over to someone who'll use it correctly..

Awlriiight?

Good. 😆

I commuted through one of the worst winters Edinburgh ever experienced with BB7s. Never missed a beat despite all the salt and crap getting onto them. Pas life is excellent and maintenance was basically zero.

Dealing with customers rim-braked bikes wasn't so pleasant.

When you are on a 15k solo break then aero is everything and braking of almost no importance in 95% of cases.

I'm not arguing discs are useful for winter commuting. I rode home in the wet on some this eve, but the pro peleton is a world away from a wet commute at rush hour.

I'm assuming that all the people saying people will be braking faster haven't ridden a road bike with decent rim brakes.

I have ridden many road bikes with rim brakes and Sram, Shimano, and TRP hydraulic disc brakes as well as BB7's and Spyre cable pulls.

I've also ridden multiple caliper braked bikes, my current 'sunday best' road bike uses Ultegra calipers and STI's connected with Shimano Dura Ace Polymer cables, I use Mavikc Exalith rims and Swissstop Exalith specific Pads. You pretty much can't get a better performing road rim brake.

Every well set up disc I've ridden has exceeded my rim brake set-up's performance in every way, if you don't think that a disc equipped road bike will be able to stop faster than a rim brake one, you're kidding yourself.

When you are on a 15k solo break then aero is everything and braking of almost no importance in 95% of cases.

And in those 5%?

As for the 95%, what if the rims can be made more aero...? As is plausible.

See above regarding track bike wheels not being much different as you still need some rim sidewall to support the tyre so you can't remove it completely. Plus as you might expect discs are worse when hit by wind at an angle. I can't remember the figures off the top of my head.

One way of comprising is to use hydraulic caliper brakes.

When you are on a 15k solo break then aero is everything and braking of almost no importance in 95% of cases.

If everyone's on discs it doesn't matter if rim brakes are 17385328% moar aero, everyone's on discs...

[quote=hatter ]Every well set up disc I've ridden has exceeded my rim brake set-up's performance in every way, if you don't think that a disc equipped road bike will be able to stop faster than a rim brake one, you're kidding yourself.

Can you not endo your rim brake equipped bikes then? That's my basic standard for "decent rim brakes" - if you can't pitch yourself over the bars with them then no matter how many buzz words you can use to describe them they don't meet that standard. Road bicycles are limited by geometry when braking.

Plus as you might expect discs are worse when hit by wind at an angle. I can't remember the figures off the top of my head.

Specialized did some wind tunnel tests using their rim and disc-braked Tarmac bikes. They reckoned at worst, discs were 8 seconds slower over 40km. Eight seconds. Not 80 or 800. 8. And that was at a cross/headwind from the left where it hit the exposed caliper and rotor the most. Head on there was even less of a difference.

8 seconds slower over 40km

Which is about half the benefit you get from using a frame with aerodynamic tubing instead of standard ones. Or, to put it another way, your TT bike with discs is not about 25 seconds slower than one without. I know which I'd choose. Admittedly, there's even less reason for discs on a TT bike, but what ever.

I'd be genuinely interested to know if there's any way to work out if the marginalgainsaero(TM) advantages of rim calipers add more to the overall speed of a road bike than the ability to brake later and with more control.

This would certainly be interesting.

I bet Tony Martin wishes he had better braking at the 2012 TT World Champs. Or maybe not...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_UCI_Road_World_Championships_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_time_trial
Marginal gains.

Interesting. Wonder if I can keep my current road bike running long enough to get a good disc road bike that I can race on.

My commuter is disc and my cx is disc. I wouldn't go back to rim brakes on either.

Being a pro mechanic and riding lots and lots of different bikes, the problem has [b]NEVER[/b] been about braking power or modulation, its about grip and the lack of it. wet or dry, with good calipers you can alredy easily overwhelm the available grip from a road tyre, and then youre sliding. so all those saying discs will let people brake later and harder, what are they doing? magicaly increasing the grip on the road??

Still maintain that on a mountain descent, on carbon rims, in the wet, there are most certainly occasions where they're not "easily overwhelming" tyre grip

I'll be sad to see rims bakes disappear, all the arguments for and against leave me thinking it just comes down to 2 things.

1) Industry driven change for changes sake
2) Users of rim brakes unable to use them/set them up properly.

In all the years I've been using rim brakes I've only been chucked down the road twice, twice hard mind. Both times I braked too late into a corner on a decent with many switchbacks and hit some gravel.. Neither rim nor discs would have saved me from these incidents, the only thing that would have saved me is me slowing down and not being so eager to catch my mate up... 😆

So really it's just user error.

the pro peleton is a world away from a wet commute at rush hour.

Speak for yourself. If you're not stem-staring at ftp channeling your inner Tony Martin, you're doing it (the commute race) wrong.

If the peloton are all on discs, how will they do a speed boost catch up move with a mechanic leaving out of the team car "adjusting" the rear caliper?

Not allowed to do that any more anyway. Sticky bottles FTW.

the problem has NEVER been about braking power or modulation, its about grip and the lack of it. wet or dry, with good calipers you can alredy easily overwhelm the available grip from a road tyre, and then youre sliding. so all those saying discs will let people brake later and harder, what are they doing? magicaly increasing the grip on the road??

When cars and motorbikes went to disc brakes from drum brakes, did you see them sliding all over the road as they overwhelmed the tyre grip?
When MTBs went from cantis to V-brakes, did the same thing happen there?

No of course not. The grip is there, masses of it. Just a case of using it better.

With weaker brakes you need to control the speed more in order to be able to stop, that means feathering them all the way down a descent. With more powerful, more modulated brakes, you can bang them on pretty much whenever you want and know that you can still stop so you can carry more speed and brake later. Put it this way, if you were driving a car, would you want one with drum brakes or one with discs?

As I said, on my disc-braked CX, I can out-descend any rim-braked road or CX bike setup and I've never unintentionally locked a wheel. I know where the limits are, I can feel when the tyre starts to lose grip and ease off the brakes for a split second.

The conversation has gone off-topic, this was supposed to be about the UCI allowing disc brakes but it's sort of veered off on the usual tangent of vehemnet nay-sayer who foresees death at every disc braked corner and the pro "just get on with it, it's been used on motorbikes and MTBs for decades" brigade.

No-one goes on about V brakes being better than discs on MTBs when you're slithering down a muddy trail, so why would calipers be better than discs on smooth clean tarmac?

[swoons @ bikebuoy]

I commuted through one of the worst winters Edinburgh ever experienced with BB7s. Never missed a beat despite all the salt and crap getting onto them.

I'll be sad to see rims bakes disappear, all the arguments for and against leave me thinking it just comes down to 2 things.

1) Industry driven change for changes sake
2) Users of rim brakes unable to use them/set them up properly.

I don't think anyone is saying rim brakes are bad, or that they are hard to set up, it's just that disc brakes are better at braking.

Discs are miles better its undeniable but 8 seconds slower over 40km is a huge amount of time in a race. Youd gain more advantage keeping caliper brakes than taking drugs against everyone else on discs in a windy 200km race

When all the photographers publish the pics of the racing, can they pwleeese airbrush out the discs.. Same with TV feeds.

Ta

#oldskoolcool

Did you want a steel frame put in as well, rather than the modern swoopy fancy plastic festival that the peloton now is, did you want the di2/eps removed as well, and go back to non-indexed down tube simplex shifters

#properoldschool #theworldmoveson 😛

Did you want a steel frame put in as well, rather than the modern swoopy fancy plastic festival that the peloton now is, did you want the di2/eps removed as well, and go back to non-indexed down tube simplex shifters

Indeed.

To keep it properly traditional, let's also ban,
Gears
Clipless pedals
Anything aero on a TT bike
TT bikes
Not having a mullet
Lycra
Team cars
Radios
Power meters
Heart rate monitors
etc.

Luddites be ludditing.

firestarter - Member
Discs are miles better its undeniable but 8 seconds slower over 40km is a huge amount of time in a race. Youd gain more advantage keeping caliper brakes than taking drugs against everyone else on discs in a windy 200km race

POSTED 4 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

Really , I think that is a tiny amount considering that is taking the worst case scenario so normally it would probably be half that and when you are sat in the peloton there is going to be no difference at all .

[quote=crazy-legs ]When cars and motorbikes went to disc brakes from drum brakes, did you see them sliding all over the road as they overwhelmed the tyre grip?
When MTBs went from cantis to V-brakes, did the same thing happen there?
No of course not. The grip is there, masses of it. Just a case of using it better.

Apples, oranges, bananas, strawmen.
- nobody is suggesting disc brakes will result in bikes sliding all over the road
- in a car with drum brakes the limit isn't the tyres grip, so braking can be improved by changing to discs
- on a MTB with (poorly set up) cantis, the limit wasn't the tyres grip, so braking could be improved by changing to Vs (though in reality ultimate braking power wasn't the main advantage)
- on a road bike with rim brakes, the limit isn't the power which can be generated by the brakes (it's not generally the grip of the tyres on the road either)

[quote=Ramsey Neil ]when you are sat in the peloton there is going to be no difference at all .

Races aren't won and lost sat in the peleton.