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BC have decided to allow discs in races from next year. Inevitable I suppose and I think it's a good progression with most of the worries about the dangers of discs being debunked (IMO).
Will make neutral service more challenging, but in my experience if you have to change a wheel mid-race you are more than likely not able to get back and be competitive anyway (unless you're in a break).
[url= https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20171114-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-to-allow-use-of-disc-brakes-in-domestic-road-and-circuit-competition-from-2018-0 ]BC statement[/url]
*shrugs*
About time too .
*shrugs* and puts fingers in ears and shouts "Llallalaaalalalalalalalalllalaaaalllalalallalallalllallaa"
Then farts on BC.
is the combined disc/wheel set up now lighter than a rim brake setup then?
Nah but Aero is the new Lightweight anyway 😉
I preferred the other thread. Because safety, or something.
Nah but Aero is the new Lightweight anyway
Oh please don't say that I've just wasted some cash buying light weight non aero wheels, which I assume are now rubbish....and they are not disc too!
How long before Zipp start selling £500 carbon disk rotors with humpback whale tech?
wow
I predict lots of strong opinions, but very few actual problems...
Anyone any ideas if TLi will follow suit ?
Anyone any ideas if TLi will follow suit ?
This is something I saw on Facebook earlier:
[i]Hi Folks - in my "Official Position" as LVRC General Secy (Ahem...), let me forestall a question that will, I'm sure, will be asked in the coming months. Under LVRC Rules, disk Brakes will NOT be permitted in Road or Circuit Events. CX is OK. We follow the UCI lead on this, as do the TLi.[/i]
Oh please don't say that I've just wasted some cash buying light weight non aero wheels, which I assume are now rubbish....and they are not disc too!
Indeed, it gets worse because slow is the new fast, now the brakes are better...
So you'll be needing Moar Aeroz and fasterer stoppers...
Oh please don't say that I've just wasted some cash buying light weight non aero wheels
Nope, your bike will feel light and responsive and be a joy to ride. I'd choose that over a couple of seconds a mile anyday.
I contacted TLI earlier and received a response stating that disc brakes are on the agenda for discussion at TLI Cycling’s National Management Committee this Sunday (19th Nov).
Slew of bling frames/wheels(non disc)on the way to the classifieds 😀
plus one - Member
Slew of bling frames/wheels(non disc)on the way to the classifieds
Only from people who aren’t actually going racing anyway
Whatever. I can safely say that in not a single race I have ridden this season#, have I wanted for better brakes - and that includes carbon rims in rainy Hillingdon and Cyclopark (180 degree hairpins plus 90 degree downhills). Of course we aren't racing over the Alps, but Milland Hill is a fun circuit.
Opens up racing for anyone excluded by previous bike choice (although a cheap used bike is a better option), so that's a good move.
I wonder about the liability of swapping the wrong wheels; if you put a non-disc wheel into a disc frame then the bike is technically illegal. In the heat of a race it is possible - indeed failing to connect the straddle wire on a Propel BEFORE the race is possible too - allegedly 😳 .
Funny fact - I used my hand-built Dura Ace/Sapim/CXP33's as spare wheels in Neutral Service. The rider who destroyed a deep section carbon rim on a pothole used the front one, and said it was a fantastic improvement on the Surrey Lanes. Aero-smaero. Get a proper set of wheels with decent rubber 😉
#40 excluding time trials, so a decent sample size. The points do not bear this out, Maybe I'd be faster in discs?
I wonder about the liability of swapping the wrong wheels; if you put a non-disc wheel into a disc frame then the bike is technically illegal.
Then there's the issue of caliper mount to rotor mount spacing - never consistent in mtb, not sure why road is going to be any better?
Then there's the issue of caliper mount to rotor mount spacing - never consistent in mtb, not sure why road is going to be any better?
I don't see the point in discs on a road racing bike but I don't see how this is any different from different rim widths or caliper to rim positions on a rim brake setup?
I also think this is a good move to allow people to race whatever bike they have now that discs are out there in the market.
I don't think anyone could reasonably argue they need better brakes in competition yet everywhere else, discs have the upper hand.
So ironically, people probably need less bikes now 😮 Perhaps 'the industry' didn't think this through 😀
It certainly didn't strike me as being a 'barrier to entry' most races are rammed as it is??
Then there's the issue of caliper mount to rotor mount spacing - never consistent in mtb, not sure why road is going to be any better?
It should be possible though, Hope are doing it on their new bike.
And all the wheels are the same, it's frames that are generally on the piss so swapping wheels isn't usually an issue.
I'd think those that had racing on their mind when buying a bike would have bought a bike that would be legal for racing. Or already have a rim brake bike for racing if they were buying a disc bike.
Given the amount of money on show at even a 3/4 road race I'd suggest allowing or not allowing discs won't make any difference to how inclusive or not the sport is.
And what defines what you're allowed to race on in a road race then? Can I ride an MTB? Or do the rules stipulate drop bars? I assume this opens up the use of disc cross bikes for road racing?
I don't see the point in discs on a road racing bike but I don't see how this is any different from different rim widths or caliper to rim positions on a rim brake setup?
Trivial to adjust on Shimano brakes with the little lever to open the calliper on the brake. And can be done on the move. Not so easy on my Propel, but it will accommodate two widths. Neutral service wheels are normally narrow rims. so just pull the lever a bit further.
I assume this opens up the use of disc cross bikes for road racing?
It does. I raced a (non-disc) cross bike in the last Imperial Winter Series race. But you have to have drop bars. Demz de roolz.
Good. About time.
It has definitely stopped my son doing any youth road races (usually closed circuit) for the last two seasons.
We don't care about aero or needing better brakes on road.
We are predominantly an MTB and CX racing family. There is a limit to how many bikes we are willing to buy or store. Son needed a bigger CX bike and there was no way we were buying one without discs, but his CX bike has to double as a road bike for training and local NWCC road coaching sessions (no restriction on discs for those). So there were a few local road races he'd have liked to enter but we couldn't due to discs.
I'm sure there are plenty of others in this position.
includes carbon rims in rainy Hillingdon and Cyclopark (180 degree hairpins plus 90 degree downhills). Of course we aren't racing over the Alps, but Milland Hill is a fun circuit.
Isn't a 90 degree downhill the same as a sheer drop ? 🙂
We are predominantly an MTB and CX racing family. There is a limit to how many bikes we are willing to buy or store. Son needed a bigger CX bike and there was no way we were buying one without discs, but his CX bike has to double as a road bike for training and local NWCC road coaching sessions (no restriction on discs for those). So there were a few local road races he'd have liked to enter but we couldn't due to discs.
I've seen several kids turned away at local circuits for that reason. They've got one bike for CX & road, it's got discs and suddenly they realise they can't use it in road races. That's a pretty real barrier to participation and also a really awkward moment at sign on when there's a kid crying their eyes out and an irate parent!
The response on social media & comments sections seems to have been mostly fairly positive.
Having been a 2nd cat the past few years and therefore competed in my fair share of road/circuit/crit races I'm saying no need whatsoever for discs on a road bike. Ever. Better braking performance equals increased danger in racing. Solo/training rides fine. Don't believe me?.. Go to Hillingdon/palace and race.. You'll soon work it out
Gt56- I don't think I've read or heard anyone arguing there's a need TO use them. Just that there's also no logical reason not to use them??
Crosshair exactly, no valid reason to use them in racing situations (which is what this thread is about), but lots of reasons not to (albeit anecdotal). Don't get me wrong I ride slx discs on my trail bike and think they're amazing, just no need on a race bike.
Whether the dangers are proven or not, I think I'd probably rather have two less sharp rotating things on the bikes around me in a race. Its not like they're needed either but I can't get that excited either way.
I wonder about the liability of swapping the wrong wheels; if you put a non-disc wheel into a disc frame then the bike is technically illegal. In the heat of a race it is possible
Would it be possible? Disk braked bikes use through axels, rim braked bikes don't. I don't think there is a risk of this in reality.
don't see the point in discs on a road racing bike
Have you ridden a hydraulic disc braked bike? I have recently ridden one and before only thought there would be a benefit in the wet, but oh boy was I wrong. The hydraulic disc braked bike was so much better than rim brakes even in the dry. Really, night and day. in every way - power, feel, modulation, lightness of touch, consistency. I'm no racer so can't comment on any competitive edge, but can't see any downside from a competitive point of view - surely even with road racing better braking can only be a benefit even if a marginal one?
I assume the new rules don't outlaw rim braked bikes so what's the whinging all about?....just crack on with your rim braked bikes and let all the other suckers get on with their disc braked bikes. The truth about any benefit will soon become apparent after a few seasons.
But if somebody grabs a handful of brake at an inappropriate time, does it matter what sort it is? At Hillingdon, it's a duff lap if you've had to touch the brake at all (and I say that having come from a level where I frequently had to brake going UP the hill 😆 ) so I really don't see why it matters?
And disc bikes look way better than rim brakes 8) 😆
no valid reason to use them in racing situations
So inclusion and allowing more people to enter races without incurring significant extra costs (i.e. having to buy a whole new / additional bike) isn't a valid reason? BC seem to think it is.
Crashes are caused by bad riders. The limit of braking on a road bike under most situations is tyre adhesion. Neither of these things have anything to do with discs.
Crashes are indeed caused by bad riders, and there are lots of them. So I'd rather those bad riders were predominantly blunt objects as opposed to more sharp edges....
Sorry mickr but I'm not sure I get your drift. Just because some people have bought disc brake equipped road bikes doesn't mean they should be allowed by BC.
The 'spinning discs cut people' is played out ****ery.
It's about comparative braking times and paces in a peloton that's inches from eachother. You either have to all be ok discs or nobody.
Those guys screaming inclusivity - I'm sure you're really struggling financially to support your kids if you can afford several hydraulic disc road bikes (but oh god never forbid buying some calipers) for a growing child.
Continuity.. Well said.
Allowing kids to be race their cross bikes in kids races is the single best reason for allowing discs. A bit like allowing mtbs in cross races. My kids had road bikes and mtbs. And I got to pass them down. But a cross bike can definitely serve for circuit races with just a change of wheels. Thats a good thing.
You can all race those disc Boardman CX Pros too 😉
Race will be over before you accelerate the stock wheels on a CX Pro up to speed 😆
Crosshair exactly, no valid reason to use them in racing situations (which is what this thread is about)
Of course there's a valid reason. If, like me you only have one road bike, that would greatly benefit from discs most of the year, then you can race without needing a whole new bike.
Seems good to me.
My kids having more than one bike us an extravagance but its a choice to be made. A mountain bike is more relevant to what we do normally but I don't bemoan them not being able to road race say. What about if I'd bought them a cross bike and they then couldn't race MTB? Can't race track with either MTB or road bike either. Life is about choices unfortunately.
Disparity in braking, it's already there. People with carbon wheels, people with alu, some with decent and we'll set up calipers and some with shonky set ups.
My kids having more than one bike us an extravagance but its a choice to be made.
If you're lucky enough to have the money and the space.
Life is about choices unfortunately.
It is. but if you can easily enable more activities for less cost, that's a good thing no? Why be exclusionist?
It's about comparative braking times and paces in a peloton that's inches from eachother. You either have to all be ok discs or nobody.
I'm sort of confused by this, surely you know how your bike handles and you brake as needed to maintain the same gap to the person in front or to ensure you have the correct speed for a certain corner. So long as the disc brakes have some modualtion the type of brake is irrelevant. In the past people have said "we dont need discs, put good high quality pads on your calipers and they brake just as well." Are you now saying rubbish pads shoudl be banned?
[tongue in cheek trolling mode]
Just re-inforces the sterotype that roadies are juiced up fools with no bike handling ability at all
[/ tongue in cheek trolling mode]
Disclaimer: I don't really care as I'm far too scared of crashing onto hard surfaces to try road racing.
It's about comparative braking times and paces in a peloton that's inches from eachother. You either have to all be ok discs or nobody.
Bollocks. The reaction time is far greater than the actual braking time, if someone in front grabs a handful of brakes your going to hit them, whatever brakes both parties are on.
Good move by BC.
Gt56 don't get your points at all - they're hardly necessary, no one's saying anything to the contrary, but they're also not detrimental. If your bike has discs, you can now race it, this is good. I don't buy the "inches from each other" stuff, look at the flat stages of the Tour this year, Kittel and Matthews(?) on discs, completely overlooked by the commentators, no one died. Your average Hillingdon crit is full of choppers who can't ride, but introducing a few folk on discs will make the sum total of zero difference!
Disclaimer: I don't really care as I'm far too scared of crashing onto hard surfaces to try road racing.
It's not crashing onto hard surfaces I'll be most scared about, it'll be crashing onto someones red hot disc brakes i'll be more concerned about from now on!
Your average Hillingdon crit is full of choppers who can't ride,
That's why they're in the newbies catagory/class.... BEcause they're inexperienced in riding.... It's not their fault 🙂
Has anybody on ever made their discs on any of their bikes red hot?? Do discs get hotter than rims??
Given that most people are trying hard not to ever have to brake in road racing, I don't see why their brakes are going to be so hot after a couple of seconds of pre crash panic braking??
Overall I think it was inevitable that they'd be allowed, just slightly surprised it is so soon, when the evidence is still inconclusive on how safe they are.
Disk braked bikes use through axles, rim braked bikes don't.
Not true. As an example I have 3 bikes with discs, (1 mtb, 2 cyclocross) all have QR front and back.
BEcause they're inexperienced in riding.... It's not their fault
Yes it is, go learn to ride a bike before turning up at a race.
Yes it is, go learn to ride a bike before turning up at a race.
They can all ride bikes, just not necessarily in groups/packs and at high corner speeds... I bet if you stuck them on the track alone they'd lap perfectly well...
They've got to get the experience and knowledge from somewhere
It's about comparative braking times and paces in a peloton that's inches from eachother. You either have to all be ok discs or nobody.
This is such rubbish I'm afraid. There is already a huge disparity in braking performance, carbon rims vs aluminium (especially in the wet), yet nobody cried when carbon rims were introduced.
Also, like njee says, going for the brakes is a bit late when the rider in front has stacked it at 30pmh. There's a reason why bunch track racing is seen as safe: brakes are for controlling speed due to descents and corners, not avoiding choppers.
Has anybody on ever made their discs on any of their bikes red hot??
No, and I've tried on night rides hoping to see even a dull red in the dark - but nothing 🙂
Has anybody on ever made their discs on any of their bikes red hot?? Do discs get hotter than rims??
As per Molly, not made them red hot; they do get hotter than rims, however they also cool down incredibly quickly. Still a non-issue.
There is already a huge disparity in braking performance, carbon rims vs aluminium (especially in the wet), yet nobody cried when carbon rims were introduced.
Great point! I think we should also ban anyone not on Dura Ace calipers, too much disparity otherwise, you'd be a liability if you only have Sora brakes. Cables and pads must be new too.
It's about comparative braking times and paces in a peloton that's inches from eachother. You either have to all be ok discs or nobody.
As njee20 says, bollocks.
There's already a huge discrepancy in braking - rim material, how worn the brake blocks are, cables, brake calipers - a rusty set of Tiagra vs some new Dura Ace. Again, it's a total red herring.
Also, in road races, if you're slamming the brakes on, something has already gone horribly wrong. As mentioned above, many circuits can be ridden with nothing more than a tiny gentle tap of the brakes once or twice a lap at most.
Ladders - Member
Disclaimer: I don't really care as I'm far too scared of crashing onto hard surfaces to try road racing.
It's not crashing onto hard surfaces I'll be most scared about, it'll be crashing onto someones red hot disc brakes i'll be more concerned about from now on!
Utter tosh, the only time I've got my disc brakes even remotely hot was on a long dry descent, and that involve much dragging. A quick grab in a road race is not going to make then even remotely warm.
weeksy - Member
I bet if you stuck them on the track alone they'd lap perfectly well...
I wouldn't count on it, there's a surprising number of people who cant ride round corners irrespective of their surroundings.
This could have a safety benefit away from the track too. I got a road bike this year and didn't get discs due to the BC policy.
For me discs feel much better/safer. But my road riding,
where the big risks are, is a little compromised. Perhaps I'll never race, but I didn't want to be excluded, and two bikes isn't an option.
If this means more people are training with brakes they prefer, then overall it might be safer.
Perhaps someone will get clipped by a disc in a race, but someone else may avoid an accident out on the roads.
(I know others may prefer the braking on non-disc bikes)
I wouldn't count on it, there's a surprising number of people who cant ride round corners irrespective of their surroundings.
You've seen me ride a road bike then !
As a racer this is just the green light I need for that expensive Christmas prezzie to self 😀
I ride a mix of disc and rim braked bikes, and can think of a couple times this season I would have considered disc's an advantage, and fundamentally as a racer it's the advantage that counts to me. Never held much stock in the safety arguements. I imagine it will drive a few new bike sale's which is all good.
Good to go for me!
They've got to get the experience and knowledge from somewhere
Clubs offer group ride training. A couple of centres offer race training. To race Surrey League you MUST have completed two training sessions. I've given them and they are very good.
can think of a couple times this season I would have considered disc's an advantage
Really? I can't. Can think of plenty of disadvantages - lugging them up Staple Hill about 40 times comes to mind 😉
But I think it's a non-issue - until someone gores their wrist open on one...
Only if you're a 4th cat.To race Surrey League you MUST have completed two training sessions. I've given them and they are very good.
Easy to get a disc bike down to the UCI limit.Can think of plenty of disadvantages - lugging them up Staple Hill about 40 times comes to mind
leggyblonde - Member
Easy to get a disc bike down to the UCI limit.
Yet in the Tour the disc bikes got ditched for mountain days #makesyouthink
Allowing kids to be race their cross bikes in kids races is the single best reason for allowing discs
+1 for this.
Makes sense for BC. With most new road bikes being sold now having discs it'll just become a barrier for people wanting to try racing which isn't good for the sport.
Won't make any difference for most UK amateur racing.
and can think of a couple times this season I would have considered disc's an advantage,
I would love to know when.
The idea of road racing is to carry speed, never touch the brakes unless it is to modulate speed in the bunch.
Ever tried a winding descent down a steep hill without using your brakes ? And the idea of road racing is to cross the finish line first .
Ever tried a winding descent down a steep hill without using your brakes ? And the idea of road racing is to cross the finish line first .
UK road racing? 😆
You guys will have to show me the grand Pro tour footage where one bloke is on Dura ace and carbon wheels and the other guy is on 'rusty misaligned tiagra'.
The UCI's rule is about the Pro tours. It is not about punters hacking about their local post office crit.
Having vastly different braking distances ****s up pack dynamics. If you haven't experienced this then thats fine, but everyone I've spoken to above cat 2 more or less agrees.
There's nothing wrong with discs, nobody is getting cut legs, they're better for braking, and on your own - crack on. But it either has to be all discs or all rim.
And if you go all rim you will find it affects punters a hell of a lot more than pros who will just get a new bike tomorrow. I'm sorry that your son's 4 bikes aren't quite right, but most kids racing road that are struggling financially can only afford one bike - and it's usually road rim.
But this thread isn't about the continued UCI disc trial, it's about BC extending the use of discs into domestic racing.
I can't imagine many Cat 2 and upwards are going to agree with your point about mixed braking dynamics anyway to be honest- I bet there's a vast range of pull lengths and bite points within the pro peloton and it's ludicrous to suggest that how hard they brake is anything other than a product of how hard the rider modulates the available power!!!
In fact how hard they brake is only really determined by how hard the guy in front brakes and that's got nothing to do with his brake type either!!
The difference between alloy rims on my nice bike and carbon on the race bike is huge, there are plenty of alloy rims mixed in with carbon. On a wet day I've not seen bunch dynamics upset in anyway. And that's on some courses where speed modulation is essential (e.g., wet cyclopark E123 last weekend). It's really not an issue as riders just aren't grabbing handfuls of lever.
Only if you're a 4th cat.
Well it has been considered for 3rd cat, but anyone can join them
Ever tried a winding descent down a steep hill without using your brakes?
I've done 50mph down a twisty decent in a UK road race, didn't touch the brakes. Anyone who did instantly went backwards, through a very strung out bunch.
But most UK road races don't have twisty, technical descents unless you ride the big E/1/2 races.
continuityHaving vastly different braking distances **** up pack dynamics. If you haven't experienced this then thats fine, but everyone I've spoken to above cat 2 more or less agrees.
What nonsense. If this was the case everyone would be required to do a 25mph braking at the line test before a race to make sure they all stop within 5cm of eachother. I'd say riders strengths/abilities (even at cat 2 level 😐 ) have FAR more influence over dynamics than bloody brakes.
Discs are here people, it adds some diversity to the bunch.
Personally I can't say I'll be using my disc braked road bike over my current stead of choice, but at least if I have a mechanical the day before or something I've got a backup option rather than not racing at all.
But most UK road races don't have twisty, technical descents unless you ride the big E/1/2 races.
True, but I can think of a race last year with a fast decent followed by a sharp left turn where braking was definitely needed. I can't see how someone with greater braking power (i.e. discs) would be a danger to anyone else.
There's never a situation when you need to stop in a race unless there's already been a crash ahead, and even with only rim brakes in the peloton some stop quicker than others - mainly due to reaction time I would say.
I think it's inevitable as discs are clearly superior, so I'm happy it's been bought in now. To say all discs or none would make it very expensive for a lot of people to race next year. They'll be a time in a few years when nearly everyone will have discs, so the sooner this process starts, the better IMO.
I can't see how someone with greater braking power (i.e. discs) would be a danger to anyone else.
Exactly. I thought the great advantage of discs was meant to be modulation. One is always adjusting speed in a race, sometimes that needs a little brake application. With a disc, it might need just a little less. We aren't grabbing the levers in the bunch! The Staple Hill circuit is a good example. Downhill with an acute left hand turn. The whole bunch will be braking - then sprinting out and leaving me behind 🙁 perhaps I need to carry more speed!
I won't be replacing the Propel any day soon though. And I'm less convinced of them replacing rim brakes. It was somewhat ironic that the TDF stages Matthews won were not on the new Propel disc, but his trust TCR non-disc. A bit like Degenkolb winning Paris-Roubaix on a non-disc Defy SL (which was not available after the entire range was replaced by disc only).
I'm less convinced of them replacing rim brakes
You may be right. Braking power is good enough with rims in most situations and there are a few disadvantages of discs e.g. weight and aero penalties