[Closed] Did an FTP Test, what next?

Clearly I could lose a bit of weight (maybe 5-6kg) but I would also like to improve my power output.

focus on one and make the other secondry. I'd suggest power, whilst making small improvements to diet is the sensible way.

I'm assuming if I improve the numbers, it will improve my general fitness etc? Sadly I don't have the time to put more than 7-10 hours a week of training (which includes commuting) so I want it to be as effective as possible

intervals on the turbo. Personally i would focus on 20MP - the rest goes hand in hand with it.

[url= http://biketechreview.com/performance/supply/47-base-a-new-definition ]have a read of this.[/url]

Was going to suggest Ping or Telnet, but can see that isn't what's wanted...

I guess that explains why I suck at climbing for starters!

Not really, FTP and climbing aren't necessarily related. Someone like Tony Martin will have a fantastic FTP, but isn't a great climber.

Agree that focusing on increasing power or losing weight is a good shout (although don't lose sight of either), and there's probably more to be gained by increasing your power, as that's quite low.

Completely arbitrary numbers but I guess maybe I would like to be ~75kg & 300w & see what difference it makes. Doesn't seem too outrageous?

No idea how 'good' you are now, but that would be a big change!

Going from 2.9Wkg to 4 would be quite a goal to reach, certainty achievable over a few years.

Number wise I guess that 4W/kg could potentially place you well up there in Expert class races, depending on your technique.

Along with your FTP value you most likely got HR values as well, whilst not as good as power, training with a HR monitor, even on a commute can increase your FTP.

Things like 2 * 20 mins, 4 * 15 or the like are classic sessions for this type of training goal, and potentially doable on a commute. Get yourself a HR monitor and train at those levels that you saw in your test.

Well I'm 179cm and 83Kg, no idea what my FTP score is but I'm in the top ten of quite a few Strava segments both on and off-road so either everyone else doing those segments is cr** or I'm reasonably fit. One general rule from road cycling is take your height in inches and that should be your weight in kilogrammes but that's for elite athletes and you could probably add 10% for most.

By far the most effective training for time constrained people are intervals but you need to really work at them.

7-10 hours a week is what most people have to work with! 300W at 75Kg is more than achievable and would make you average-to-good at a domestic level.

If you want to improve your threshold power, the most effective training is to do threshold intervals. Steady state is mind-numbingly boring, and extremely hard on the trainer, so over-unders or suchlike can help to mix things up a bit.

Trainer Road is a great way to get you started with structured training.

~75kg & 300w

Got to agree with Njee and Chef that that would be a pretty big improvement to be aiming for. Doable over quite a bit of time if you stuck to a consistent 7-10 hours a week of quality riding but most people struggle with consistency more than knowing what to do with those 7 hours.

Trainer Road is a great way to get you started with structured training.

TR is also great for the virtual power feature which gives you objective and instant feedback as to how hard (or not) you are actually doing various intervals which is key.

Personally i would focus on 20MP - the rest goes hand in hand with it.

Personally, I would "raise the left and fill the right", i.e. work to raise your critical power at the shorter durations while getting the long, easy rides in. Some good reading of practical, time crunched ideas [url= http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=94503 ]here[/url] and [url= http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=78810 ]here.[/url]

Ok, i'm not too concerned about weight, i'm hardly a fat biffer, and I don't want to end up looking malnourished. I'm sure if I start upping the intensity and keep eating the same i'll naturally lose a bit anyway.

Things like 2 * 20 mins, 4 * 15 or the like are classic sessions for this type of training goal, and potentially doable on a commute. Get yourself a HR monitor and train at those levels that you saw in your test.

Understand, so for doing something like these, how hard should I be going? I have the HR data from the test too. Should doing these be going as hard as I went for the test?

I've got a few of the Sufferfest video's as well, would doing something like downward spiral intervals be beneficial too?

Lastly, how many of these should I be doing a weeK? I commute mostly through urban areas so would like to keep that low intensity (for fear of life) and do most of the nasty stuff on the turbo.

All will have to be on an HRM, don't have a power meter myself.

Edited to add - thanks for the input so far!

If you don't have a PM, then using the virtual power of Trainer Road is a really great way to structure your efforts. If you use one of their training plans, you will also have target effort levels for the workouts, and rest time planned in to your week.

If you want to train on your commute (which is what I do), then you need to find some places where you can ride hard without too many interruptions. I use Regent's Park or if I have more time, a loop further out past my house near the M25. And for shorter efforts I do loops up and down Highgate Hill. The rest of the commute in and out I generally ride at an easy pace.

If you have training plan, then you can sub in some outdoor intervals for the 'on' days, and just ride super easy on the other days.

Understand, so for doing something like these, how hard should I be going? I have the HR data from the test too. Should doing these be going as hard as I went for the test?

Well lets say your average HR for the 20 minute test was 160bpm, it started at 130 as you were already warmed up and peaked at 165, for example.

You'd want to do those intervals averaging just under 160, in what is called the sweet spot, not too hard that you can't concentrate on traffic and do a productive days work afterwards, but probably quite a bit faster/harder than your riding now.

Even if you only manage one 20 minute interval per trip you'll still see results, but as was said, this type of training is most effective when combined with others, e.g. short intervals and short recoveries that target VO2max

^^ this

Number wise I guess that 4W/kg could potentially place you well up there in Expert class races, depending on your technique.

This as well. I'm 67kg with FTP of about 280 (not actually tested for a while, and my PowerTap's dead), and I'm not a hideous embarrassment.

I'm using Trainer Road and its been a revelation for me.

You use your FTP to determine the intensity of the work outs. You choose a training plan and go from there. I'm currently five weeks into the MTB XC plan doing 3-3.5 hours a week on the low volume plan. I'm already feeling the benefits.

There are plans for just about every aspect of cycling.

Thanks all.

Does Trainer Road give suggestions on the frequency of doing the interval sessions? I'm assuming I won't be doing them every day (3 times a week maybe?)

With TrainerRoad you just pick a session from a large categorised library of workouts, or you can build your own workout. There are some plans on the website that you can follow if you like, but it doesn't enforce this in any way.

Anything over 4 w/kg I'd say would be someone pretty fit.
Over 5 w/kg you can start mixing it with Elite racers and over 6 w/kg you will be looking at international level riders.

FTP is just a number and doesn't really mean too much. When you start training by power and have a curve, from CP5 (5 minute power) to CP120 (2 hour power) or even CP180 (3 hour) thats when you can see your strengths & weaknesses.

Your (anyones) FTP will hit a ceiling and for many people its impossible to get above it, without very focused training.

Along similar lines, I have a question around heart rate and power and their correlation...

When you have the FTP value (both HR and watts), the aim is presumably then to train and you would then subsequently see an improvement in your power output.

As your heart rate range is essentially fixed (is this the case?), and your average heart rate you could ever maintain for the 20 minute test will be the same (give or take) and therefore training would increase the power output for a given heart rate - ie your efficiency.

If that's right, then getting an FTP value for your HR is pointless...as it will always be the same?

So does that mean FTP Heart rate values are pointless without the power figures?

Or is average heart rate directly correlated to power output, and thus training will increase both together?

Throw the heart monitor in the bin and just work with power, it makes life an awful lot easier 😀

FTP can never be linked to HR.
FTP - Functional Threshold Power.

You can not have a "FTP HR".

If you train by power, then HR can still be useful - but it becomes a secondary figure, usually used to check for things like over training or changes in fitness over a long period.

There is no real concept as an FTP HR value.

As you say, as you get fitter/more efficient you either get more power in your FTP test for the same HR value, or a lower average HR value for the same power output. (simplistic as training should increase your ability to work at a higher % of your max HR, therefore your average HR in an FTP would increase)

However as most people, inc. the OP do not have access to a power meter so using the average HR during an FTP test is a crude way to estimate what level of workload they should be aiming at for FTP/Sweet spot style training.

Don't bin the HR!

It's used to help monitor your stress response to training.

If you see a drop in HR for a given workout in the short term, it can be a good indicator that you are fatigued.

If you see a trend in HR drop for a given set of workouts (at a certain power) then it's an indication of increased fitness. You probably need to increase your training load.

You can monitor your fatigue just as well with RPE. If you have a PM then HR just adds a layer of unpredictability that you really don't need.

Really?

Not so sure about that. I wouldn't try to ride to both metrics, but I'd not stop using HR just because you've got power.

It tells you how fast your heart beats. So what? You can infer some things from that information but as we all know, it's subject to so many outside influences that to try and cross-reference with power in any meaningful way is a tricky exercise, and one which you may never achieve.

If you only have HR then fair enough, but when you've got something giving you a defined metric such as power then why bother?

When I first got a power meter I thought would look at HR after but not during, however i do now tend to use both to a degree dependant on what doing. I am about the same weight as op and produce a bit more power, but my aim in training has always been to produce power not lose weight. I just like sprinting..
As stated before if only got HR then spot on re sweetspot training using a known value, yes that may and will change but need to start somewhere. 7-10 hrs is plenty of time if used properly, commute is a perfect way to train. Most of my targeted training has been done during commute over the years as other riding is more social and fun.

Coggans reply here is good

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=2830698#2830698

I'm 188cm, ~81kgs & my FTP was 239W, which gives a W/KG of 2.9.

I guess maybe I would like to be ~75kg & 300w & see what difference it makes.

[b]Doesn't seem too outrageous?[/b]

I was about 81kg back in Feb and my first FTP test on TrainerRoad was 234w. I followed their 6 week SweetSpot Base plan and supplemented with additional workouts as and when when I felt like it; usually 1 or 2 extra per-week at lower intensity (so averaging 5 workouts / 5.5h total per week).

By April I'd dropped 6kg and my FTP was 305, so what your proposing is entirely do-able.

Is that using virtual power, or measured power, out of interest?

70w in 3 months? Off 5.5hrs - Nah, you got better at testing rather than such a big jump, which is generally where all the gains are

Like said above, climbing is more based on other aspects and not FTP mainly 5sec 1min and 5min

Chart your power profile

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/power-profiling

Is that using virtual power, or measured power, out of interest?

70w in 3 months? Off 5.5hrs - Nah, you got better at testing rather than such a big jump, which is generally where all the gains are

Just another quick point in relation to the big increased in FTP over a short time.

The key thing to remember is that it's *functional* threshold power. Not *theoretical* threshold power.

For someone who is either untrained, or unused to sustained efforts at race intensity, a large percentage of the gains over 6 weeks are learning how to push yourself. You were probably able to do 80% of the 'gains' the first time if only you knew you were.

239W to 300W is a big ask unless you are completely untrained and unfit.

As posters above have said you need a mix of longer threshold intervals e.g. 2 x 20min and shorter harder intervals above threshold. Mix it up and keep your body guessing. Also longer sweetspot sessions and don't neglect endurance rides too. Try the Time Crunched Cyclist or TrainerRoad for plans. 7-10 hours structured training is more than enough to see a good improvement although 300W is asking a lot.

As has been said, it's very easy to make big apparent gains in a short space of time if you are relatively unfit and untrained. When I started using TR I went from a 228 test to 305 in less than a year just following some of the set plans, but I'd say a lot of that was learning to pace and sustain an effort, and it was off the back of a year off through injury.

The hard part is where do you go once those initial quick gains are made 🙂

okay so I was lab tested in July, lots of interesting figures :

178cm / 74.6kg at the time / FTP was 265w 3.5w/kg/ relative vo2 max 65.4 / Max HR during test was 194 (202 in reality) / Max power 850w (ish not written down so forget true number but it was disappointing, however I was knackered at the end of all the tests)

By the end of Sept I was down to 72kg, PRing everywhere and starting to pick up low level (less than 200 rider contested) KOM's on the road. Wasn't retested so lets assume the power stayed similar (doubtful) so an increase to 3.7w/kg more likely close to 4.

That was training 8-16hrs per week for 2 months depending on work /life. Without a power meter.

No structured training plan, but a rough schedule of mixing long 5-7hr z2 rides (upto 100miler). Short hard 2 and 3 hr efforts (where I was trying to determine best HR to maintain, basically sweetspot training). And once a week 1hr banzai lunch time ride where I would attack all hills flat out and max the HR (basically interval training).

If it helps to put my numbers in relative terms in races like the Gorricks I get lapped by the likes of George Budd and tend to finish in the top third. So a long long way to go.

Starting out you'd want to do 2-3 interval sessions a week, 2 long base rides and some sweetspot training to get into the habit. Once you've got the habit a structured plan is a good idea. From there you can start with things like periodization (I've not done this yet).

I have found if I spend too much time on a structured plan, and in particular the turbo it sucks the life out of me and I start to become inconsistent with my training. Best to keep it fun, and the numbers should follow.

I do really want a power meter but cars and laptops keep needing replacing instead.

EDIT - diet wise I was following low carb diet zero dairy too. I came off this when I started dipping below 72kg as I was looking a little bit too skinny.

The big gains in fitness come early. Ability to sustain harder efforts is the mark of fitness - as is recovery. I would hope that with regular cycling, including pushing onto to harder efforts, the OP would see a reasonable increase in FTP before seeing reductions in bodyweight.

I started at 73 kilos and had an FTP of about 260 watts. Was barely competitive in 4th cat racing (dropped in fact). Regular riding (including 75-100 miles a week commuting), coupled with some longer riding and intense efforts (circuit races) have brought the weight down and the FTP up.

Two years later I'm 67 kg and and FTP of 290 watts (4.3 watts/kg). I can hold my own in an E123 race, can't sprint to save my life (not enough watts or courage), and don't have the skills to be really competitive on the muddy stuff (so race singlespeed 😉 ).

The OP will definitely see improvements with any form of regular riding. I think the most sensitive early measure will be speed of recovery after effort. Which is really interval training.

Same here. This year has been my first with trainer road, 2 sessions per week plus 1 hard 1 hour ride outside and 1 4hr club ride or Mtb at the weekend.

Feb to September saw a 20% gain in ftp and a 9kg weight loss. I finding the sessions much harder now though, and as I'm now just finished both sweet spot plans and about test before I start Novice Race next week, I am not anticipating many gains now - I do feel there's a curve that flattens.

I shall be seeing TiRed to test it out on Feb 🙂

70w in 3 months? Off 5.5hrs - Nah, you got better at testing rather than such a big jump, which is generally where all the gains are

Yeah, I think that's bang-on, I've said the same myself in the TR thread. But then the same will apply to the OP...don't you dare suggest they're not 'real' gains!

That's exactly why I asked, as I suspect that's even more acute with VP. Not a bad thing, you're still coming up with a more meaningful baseline!

I am not anticipating many gains now - I do feel there's a curve that flattens.

unless you up the hours?

There's a lot you can do before you up the hours, most people tend to put in a lot of work on their strengths for example instead of working on their weaknesses as that's generally harder and less fun. Some time just thinking about what you are doing can pay a lot of dividends. I guess it's the training smarter thing. But yes, at some point you probably need to up the hours. By that point it's diminishing returns though and you have to put in a lot of hard work for small gains (or even to just not lose what you've got.)

Ill have trouble upping the hours.

Instead I did my sweet spot at 3% incline instead.

Worries that I didn't understand a single bit of this, when I usually have some amount of clue.

Good intro or site for a novice?

Welcome to you Mr Welsh bloke.

Welsh bloke, have a [url= http://help.trainingpeaks.com/entries/22672025-Threshold-411 ]look here[/url].

FTP = how hard you can go for an hour, measured in watts.

Watts rate of doing work. You can work very hard for short periods (sprint) or amble along gently with low effort for much longer.

A novice cyclist will be able to sustain about 200 watts for an hour. Of course this depends on how big you are. 200 watts is a lot for a 45 kilo lady, and not much for a 150 kilo man. So watts/kilos is a fairer measure for a lot of riding.

There is a lot of theory and argument about how to train - improve FTP, improve endurance, etc. But generally; more riding makes you fitter and able to work harder for longer. Training at or even above your FTP (for short periods, not an hour) will make you fitter faster.

Beginners will have about 2.5 Watts/kg
Fitter cyclists 3 Watts/kg
Trained cyclists 3.5-4 Watts/kg
Successful racers 4.5-5.5 Watts/kg
Pros 5.5-6.5 Watts/kg

6.2 Watts/kg wins you the Tour de France. Pros are about 30% more powerful than amateurs.

Last point, there are no shortcuts, but the biggest gains come early. The jump from 4.3-4.5 is not coming at all.

This chart sort of illustrates what TiRed is saying...

[img] [/img]

The jump from 4.3-4.5 is not coming at all.

The decline from 4.2 to sub 4 is coming all to easy here, winter weight and stupid colds 🙁

I have a full time job and a part time one too that used to pay for holidays and bike bits etc.

To start with my training fitted in with my life. Now my life fits in with my training and that has meant sacrifices including the second job. The issue is not so much the time but the regularity/or timing off it to get the best results.

As I said FTP says how hard you can work for an hour. The table is more helpful because of course, riding a bike may call for harder efforts over shorter periods. The "power curve" is a measure of how hard a rider can work for a given period. The table shows that for 5 second efforts - such as a sprint - much higher wattages are needed - think kettle not spotlight. The bes sprinters will be putting out 1.5 - 2 kW for very short periods.

So whilst I have a respectable one-hr FTP and can hold my own for an hour or two, my power curve looks more like the Sugar-Loaf mountain with a pretty flat 850 Watt sprint (travel kettle). That's why I'm not a sprinter and have to use tactics to place in races.

MrB - definite LOL there. I have a Winter Series to help sustain the little form I have. Sadly so did the other 79 riders in the first race!

Last point, riders prefer power to heart rate because it is a measure of work done. Heart rate is a measure of how hard the body is working (and has a maximum), but as your fitness improves, you will be able to sustain longer and more powerful efforts for the same (or lower) heart rate. There is a relationship between the two and it is not a linear one. The Powercal heart rate monitor makes a good stab at estimating power from heart rate, and over longer efforts say 30 seconds, it is not bad.

The issue is not so much the time but the regularity/or timing off it to get the best results.

This. Once I learned the pitfalls and process of appropriate training last year, it became apparant that my biggest issue was this. But however you plan it, it can get knocked sideways. For example, due to a coughing virus I'm now 3 weeks delayed into a build plan to deliver me to some winter crits. Now in actual fact they are C priority to me, so all is not lost, but still...

Definitely the key thing for any newbie is consistency and habit, you can work on this without understanding your FTPs from your LTs.

Get to the point that you are regularly and consistently riding 3-4 sessions per week with 6+ hrs commitment (ideally I'd say 10+ but real life gets in the way for most of us).

Once you get the habit then start to think how you will 'tune' those sessions, in effect the 'train smarter' you've seen mentioned here, starting to target specific goals / numbers you want to improve.

Lastly I think the reason there are so many schools of thought it that different things work for different people. So you have to do some level of experimentation to work out what works for you.

Coaches are great as they can short cut a lot of this stuff but it will still be a learning experience when you start out.

Far too anal this stuff. Wasting time that could be spent doing proper riding, which is all I need to keep fit really. Not that I care about performance. I just ride *mountain* bikes (rare I know on STW), go up a hill, have fun, etc. That's all that matters. 😛

TurnerGuy - Member
Was going to suggest Ping or Telnet, but can see that isn't what's wanted...

Likewise. I thought this was the wrong forum for a moment.

It's not just about the FTP. Otherwise ten Dam would be a GC contender!

[img] [/img]

Best get used to the burn 8)

I just ride *mountain* bikes (rare I know on STW), go up a hill, have fun, etc. That's all that matters.

Is pretty much what I do on MTB - it's about exploring, taking photos, drinking beer. A bit like rambling while dragging a 15kg bike over hill and dale!

On the road I'm more interested in the numbers, especially as my garmin documents my gradually diminishing summer watts 🙁

whats AEC in the graph above?

Far too anal this stuff. Wasting time that could be spent doing proper riding, which is all I need to keep fit really. Not that I care about performance. I just ride *mountain* bikes (rare I know on STW), go up a hill, have fun, etc. That's all that matters.

As this thread is full of people who ride mountain bikes a lot faster than you it's a bit of an odd comment... troll fail

As this thread is full of people who ride mountain bikes a lot faster than you....

I'll take that as a compliment after i died on that hill in Surrey. Although Craig was right....

I've a question - after just a few easy sessions due to illness I'm having to start my next phase - do I get more benefit from a 100k club ride on Sunday and the Ftp test in Tueesday, or shall I go straight to the Test on Sunday? My current answer is "depends on the weather".

I like what I'm reading here on this thread. Bit too technical but the theory is sound and if you have the time and mentality you can vastly improve your riding by putting some effort in.

At what cost?

Well if it fits within your own personal circumstances then not a lot, but you do get to train whilst riding rather than riding to train so to speak.

Never been one to over analyse data me but I do plan my rides and try to get the best out of my planned ride wherever possible. So todays stint was improving climbing and I got some PB's doing that, this greatly pleased me but tomorrow will be a "rest ride" so I'll be hacking the Downs to find some rolling hills to peek through the baron trees and hedges just to admire the view.

Kill it by all means but don't forget the journey and the view.. 8)

dirtyrider - Member
whats AEC in the graph above?

Anaerobic Capacity, more or less your lactate threshold. 6w/kg isn't much use if you can't repeat it on the 2nd, 3rd, 4th climbs of the day. ten Dam would be winning grand tour stages if they consisted of a 50km climb and nowt else...

thanks

@Kryton57

Coming back from an illness I'd probably go with a leisurely 100km ride with the slowest group. Maybe even prepare to cut the ride short if I felt bad during it. Do a "neck check" and increase my build up period if I had to.

No point rushing back from recovery. You lose 100% of the races you don't start and all that.

What's a "neck check" CuriousYellow?

whys ten dams AEC so low then? its less than a fifth of the others in the graph, is there a story the pic is from?

What's a "neck check"

If an illness is below the neck, generally it's worth a stopping until it's gone - above the neck and carry on. He's suggesting that if I'm coughing up my lungs half way through - stop.

Dirtyrider, don't know the source of the chart, but [url= http://www.fietsica.be/Grand_Tour_Champions.pdf ]this is a good read[/url].

Kryton, above the neck is to take it easy not just carry on regardless 😉

ooh good think link mrblobby, thanks, I'll be reading that in full later on, looks interesting.

Seconded. A really nice piece of work. Takes a Physicist to really show the underlying physiology 8)

To be honest, we shouldn't be surprised that the pros are 1) consistent in their climbing and 2) pretty close together in performance.

They train for consistency of effort and natural selection during the race will remove those with lower performance.

Should be as easy to spot outliers as the biological passport. I wonder where Armstrong's climbs feature.

Dirtyrider, it's from the same folks as Blobby's link above, but based on 2014 TdF

[url= https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=IquKVOvyAse6UeyMgYgF&url=http://www.fietsica.be/Tour2014.pdf&ved=0CBwQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNFN32W-VVGbpG_qzuTV9f1GYjVfJA&sig2=OgAvne8T14-84TMj30LrSw ]Here[/url] (pdf)

This morning's productivity has been diminished somewhat now.

Plot spoiler, doesn't make good reading for Horner.

Chef, if you really want to lose a morning then there's a whole thread on it over on the [url= http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=22018 ]cycling news clinic forum[/url].

Kryton, above the neck is to take it easy not just carry on regardless

Fair point. I woke up this morning and my fading cough seems to worse again. I'm getting impatient as although January's races are "for experience" I want to turn up fit and ready and at this rate my ftpight be dropping!

Good article that.

Thanks, but I'm depressed enough by the whole Astana affair so I'll avoid the clinic as it might just finish me off.

After reading these articles it seems that I suck because my VO2max is not over 75.

After reading these articles it seems that I suck because my VO2max is not over 75.

You're just not sucking hard enough 😀

IGMC

I think my suck is genetically determined though 🙁

I think my suck is genetically determined though

It just means you have to suffer harder for longer...you can determine the limits of your suffering.