Just seen over on Pinkbie - Deviate are insolvent. It seems some continuity / assets have been bought but sounds like staff laid off etc. Sad times - I love my Claymore and think the are (hopefully not were) a bit special.
That's a real shame. Always liked the look of the bikes and enjoyed seeing a UK company innovating and receiving good reviews. Hopefully, it'll re-emerge in some form.
It’s a shame. I feel sorry for the employees
Gutted, what a positive and interesting brand. Hope something works out, but I guess the economy needs to improve for anything to float at the moment.
Weren't they asking people for money recently? To become an investor in a brand which they must have already known was in trouble at the time?
I was interested in the e-bike until I saw the prices. There are too many good options available for far less money.
The prices of bikes never returned to sensible after Covid . Reading Bens comments on PB the cost of components and high end parts hasnt helped. Having met a few of the guys inc Ben at Deviate they were always super helpful in all aspects and business focused . I like everyone else hope things can be turned around or re structured what are great bikes .
Weren't they asking people for money recently? To become an investor in a brand which they must have already known was in trouble at the time?
March 2024. From the looks of it all the challenges have been supply chain issues this year, so would have to have had a particularly bleak crystal ball to have foreseen them.
Nothing but praise from me, the bikes are brilliant, as are Ben and Chris and everything they did to support customers.
Adding this for the record... I've had a few bikes from Deviate. They were fantastic bikes, from the engineering and they way they rode. To top that, any issues were sorted asap. Ben and Chris really did set the bar for customer service. My experience of these guys was first class.
I wish them the best and hope they can keep the wheels turning.
The prices of bikes never returned to sensible after Covid
They won't. No-one is making much these days, most are just either side of breaking even. The market was in a cycle of overstock then discount for a long time before covid, covid then magnified that process 10x.
I don't know much about Deviate so can't comment beyond thinking that being a small, high end, super-specialist MTB brand with the R+D and testing costs that go with it is probably the hardest place in the industry to be right now. They did exceptionally well getting as far as they did, clearly some smart people behind the brand. Market conditions just aren't good.
Weren't they asking people for money recently? To become an investor in a brand which they must have already known was in trouble at the time?
March 2024. From the looks of it all the challenges have been supply chain issues this year, so would have to have had a particularly bleak crystal ball to have foreseen them.
So, 4 years into Covid and all the related supply chain chaos and price hikes. That's cool.
Can only echo what others have said, I really like the way my Highlander rides and they've been really good with support when I've needed it. It's terrible news for the staff and I really hope they can come out the other side with some sort of company.
Was out on a demo ride with some of the guys at Comrie Croft a few months ago and was seriously impressed with the highlander so impressed I was waiting to buy one after Christmas.
Feel for all the staff and everyone involved.
I've been seeing more and more people buying them, and owners generally seem impressed - so it's a bit of a surprise (but also not at all considering the general state of the industry).
Their comments on the PB story were frank and illuminating. Seemed to be blaming a hold-up on stock arriving this year for creating a cash-flow issue, and admitting there's a market correction happening on the overblown pricing of recent years.
I guess that correction needs to travel all the way back down the supply chain though.
Not sure it's helpful to be cynical about their crowdfunding thing 1.5 years ago. At least wait and see what they do with regard to anyone who put money in.
So, 4 years into Covid
Eh? I’m pretty sure Covid was all finished by what 2022/23, as far as supply chains were concerned, no? Hence all the massive overstocks?
I really hope this doesn't become another of those "write off your debts and carry on" situations. I'm always sceptical when the owner/founder buys the company back :-/
It's great to see these small companies exist, let alone thrive, but I always feel for the folk that get shafted in these situations.
Ah that's a shame, they'd have been near top of my list for a new enduro bike if I was buying. Investing in a new eBike recently can't have been cheap either, but that's what brands need to do, i guess.
Edit - see below, seems bad news but not final, they might turn it around
The liquidation marks the end of the company, but not the end of Deviate. I’m taking the brand forward under a new, separate company so the bikes and the ideas behind them can continue. I want to thank everyone who supported us — staff, customers, riders, investors and partners — their belief meant a lot.
Once the asset sale is completed, the Deviate website will return under the new company. We’ll share details on stock and timings as soon as everything is in place, and anyone interested can sign up on the site for updates. The aim is simple: to keep the bikes alive for the riders who believed in them.
Eh? I’m pretty sure Covid was all finished by what 2022/23, as far as supply chains were concerned, no? Hence all the massive overstocks?
It’s really not that simple. Supply chains and production still haven’t recovered from the after effects of the pandemic. Supplier disruption and delays is still very much a reality in the industry.
There's demo days this weekend in Eversley (led rides, food, drink, disco etc) so be interesting to see what they say.
These bike manufacturers can blame supply chains all you like but the pool of people with £5k+ to drop on a bike is a very small pool.
These bike manufacturers can blame supply chains all you like but the pool of people with £5k+ to drop on a bike is a very small pool.
And I dare say most of those people will want e-bikes now. Who is actually buying high-end, full-build pedal bikes these days? My LBS tells me that no one is which is why their stock and sales is now 90% e-bikes.
I can see some Deviate owners going on the defensive and I'm not here to argue. I own multiple bikes from small brands who are probably on very thin ice financially and none of them are asking for public money to prop them up yet.
Side note: Prices across the board are becoming a total piss-take. RRP's on new bikes and kit has been spiralling upwards for years and now we've gotten accustomed to 30-40% discounts again which the smaller brands can't compete with. Actual sustainable prices must be in the middle somewhere.
There's also just too many companies making too much stuff. I can see a few more brands disappearing in the near future.
Damn, thats a shame, hope they turn it around. Never had a shot of one of their bikes but would have been high on the list if I was looking for another/new bike.
These bike manufacturers can blame supply chains all you like but the pool of people with £5k+ to drop on a bike is a very small pool.
Deviate (Ben I presume) did acknowledge this in the PB comments.
They're one of the more "on-trend" brands in higher-end non-eeb bikes, but were clearly not gonna sell at RRP when everyone was discounting.
The industry clearly needs to take a collective chill pill on pricing. Innovation and improvement have plateaued anyway, so maybe R&D can be cut and product cycles lengthened to assist with this?
Probably didn't help Deviate that they came up with a hefty and chonky-looking eeb when it seems like full-fat and midweight eebs are converging to an extent.
My concern is for other small brands. Clearly someone is taking a haircut on the losses as a result of this liquidation and buy back. Who? If its the factory’s in the far east or component suppliers is that going to push up prices to smaller brand or result in worse terms of business which damage cash flow?
What's causing the holdup in supply chains? We had Covid and the subsequent over-supply, there was the Shimano factory fire before that. Is it motors, batteries, components, frame manufacture? Halfords managed to record a growth in their cycle division of 9% this year so some stuff is getting through. Then again, they're not focussed on £5k bikes.
Who? If its the factory’s in the far east or component suppliers is that going to push up prices to smaller brand or result in worse terms of business which damage cash flow?
I'm not commenting on Deviate here as I don't know. But yes in general it's the factories and parts suppliers taking a large part of the loss - Vanmoof and recently YT left bills unpaid in Asia as that's where most of the debt is. Those costs come back around in the system since bike factories aren't there for the benefit of riders are they, they're there to make a profit. They have to make back those losses somehow.
It’s really not that simple. Supply chains and production still haven’t recovered from the after effects of the pandemic. Supplier disruption and delays is still very much a reality in the industry.
Exactly.
Long leadtimes in some areas as factories don't have the order volumes to keep lines running, some have been on 3 day weeks or have mothballed capacity. It's patchy. They're trying to keep staff on over there, same on this side and it doesn't help planning or predictability and it all hits cashflow.
I really dont think it will be the end of the brand . I will say the frames are well made and the grease ports make maintaince easy . If you have insurance and the frame goes bang thats your warranty there . Add to that there are some brilliant deals on the factory claymore at biketart..
I mean lets be fair any one In the bike industry could fall flat on their arse tomorrow .. Santa Yeti Orange (again) YT are still making sorry signs to customers . Nukeproof have made a comeback worthy of Lazerous but faith in their bikes again..
Investing in a new eBike recently can't have been cheap either, but that's what brands need to do, i guess.
Don't think that they need to design and offer ebikes. I'm not at all interested in e-mountain bikes. I've an e-cargo bike, but I see that as a tool.
Also, titting about designing ebikes costs money and adds complexity. Surely better to concentrate on doing two or three things well.
Ive been eyeing up a highlander for a while
almost pulled the trigger when they were selling off 2024 frames earlier in the year , but its still a lot of cash
Oversupply in the industry has seen even brands like santa cruz being sold off at big discounts, I do hope Deviate come out the other side and feel for staff and suppliers suddienly in the lurch just b4 Xmas
Bike brands can come and go. There will always be people willing to build a bike brand but the question for me is will the factories and suppliers that actually make the bikes still be there? Every time I hear about one of these founders buying back their brand it's always focused on 'doing our best to make it right for all our customers'. That's fine and understandable given that most of these press releases are aimed at the current and potential future customers but what worries me is how much of a hit are the factories taking every time a brand gets liquidated, has its debts written off, and the rises from the ashes?
Honestly, for me the customer being made right is very much my number 3 consideration. I'm worried about the factories and suppliers that actually make our expensive toys (and probably also make a mode of transport people all over the world rely on to get to work).
First priority should be to look after any members of staff who might have lost out in any way.
I'm not trying to have a go at Ben here, just some of my concerns as this 'liquidate and bought back by the founder' thing seems to be becoming a regular occurrence.
is how much of a hit are the factories taking every time a brand gets liquidated, has its debts written off, and the rises from the ashes?
Anyone who offers credit should have credit insurance, and stick to the terms of that. If they don’t, that’s on them.
Even with credit insurance you've still got to prove you did your due diligence.
Anyone who offers credit should have credit insurance, and stick to the terms of that. If they don’t, that’s on them.
OK, but what about cases where the retailer has paid a deposit for a batch of frames or parts and the liquidators decide to just write off the deposit rather than complete the order?
The supplier is then left with a bunch of parts or frames that it may not be possible to re-purpose or they may have a lot of trouble reselling. There have definitely been instances where there have been some 'creative' solutions to deal with this problem but it doesn't leave anyone in a good position.
Anyway, even with credit insurance, doesn't that just mean higher premiums going forward. If they can still get credit insurance at all.
It’s all part of the cost of doing business and offering credit. No one likes to see it happen, but you’d be mad to not prepare for it.
It’s all part of the cost of doing business and offering credit. No one likes to see it happen, but you’d be mad to not prepare for it.
Sure, but with many factories supposedly mothballed or on heavily reduced shifts, it's all fine saying 'part of the cost of doing business' but clearly the bike industry doesn't really have enough to pay for the cost of doing business anymore. And that probably includes credit insurance.
Luckily, as consumers, we can just pay with our credit cards. Which if more people do there won't be as many people left out of pocket when yet another brand goes bust.
Like you say, you'd be mad not to.
Don't think that they need to design and offer ebikes. I'm not at all interested in e-mountain bikes. I've an e-cargo bike, but I see that as a tool.
Also, titting about designing ebikes costs money and adds complexity. Surely better to concentrate on doing two or three things well.
On one hand 100% agree - just decide what you do and get into it. On the other hand MTB is becoming a powered activity, the mainstream is going to e-bikes and it would be a brave brand that resisted that. E-MTB is uplift culture where MTB is rooted. non-e is pedal culture, that's more about XC/gravel in some ways. So yes non-e XC-trail style bikes will do ok, but it's a shrinking market.
There will always be people willing to build a bike brand but the question for me is will the factories and suppliers that actually make the bikes still be there?
They'll create their own brands as the western marketing aspects becomes redundant. Do you buy on price e.g. a Canyon, or buy a Cotic or Starling for what they do and how they do it? If you buy on price you may be buying a factory-owned brand soon enough (Avinox, Giant, etc)
It’s all part of the cost of doing business and offering credit.
It isn't, not at this level. If your business prepared for it at the level it happens in the bike industry now you'd be laughed out of the bank.
Credit insurance doesn't account for the parts stock or materials that's been paid for and held, for bikes that were about to be made and not yet invoiced, things like that.
Maybe a re-structuring of the business is what was required . I dont understand how why what went wrong . For me The brand had the two bikes it needed , The Highlander reveered by everyone who rode it. I good social media base with epic Scottish day rides and worldly epics . And the harder hitting Claymore. The Tilander is a very neiche idea and costing and production would hit any wallet. Then there was the Kurgan ... This in an already over saturated marketwould be seen as a risk by most ...
Perhaps if the pheonix rises again then a smaller inventory is required ... Didnt Orange do the same ?
Maybe a re-structuring of the business is what was required . I dont understand how why what went wrong . For me The brand had the two bikes it needed , The Highlander reveered by everyone who rode it. I good social media base with epic Scottish day rides and worldly epics . And the harder hitting Claymore. The Tilander is a very neiche idea and costing and production would hit any wallet. Then there was the Kurgan ... This in an already over saturated marketwould be seen as a risk by most ...
Perhaps if the pheonix rises again then a smaller inventory is required ... Didnt Orange do the same ?
THe product they produce is excellent. However their entire range is aimed at the same person which isn’t very broad. You can either buy a short travel enduro bike or a long travel enduro bike with or without electricity. There is no short travel, XC or hardtail to broaden the customer base. I understand why, its expensive to produce a range and if its not the owners area of interest then the enuthusiam probably isn’t there.
Perhaps if the pheonix rises again then a smaller inventory is required ..
But as you said, they only had two pedal bikes and one eeb — and wasn't the ti thing just a concept bike?
There can't be many brands making fewer models.
However their entire range is aimed at the same person
I get what you're saying, however I think the Claymore is possibly for a multi-bike owner, the Highlander for a one-bike rider — and we have seen from that thread asking about buying a second ebike that some riders won't even consider a bike without a motor now.
They'll create their own brands as the western marketing aspects becomes redundant.
This is so interesting, and we've already seen the range of unfamiliar brands available in China (which seem super-cheap at their prices).
My ex worked as a clothes designer for a Chinese firm which produced ranges of garments to sell to the big retailers here. I wonder if bike factories will take the same approach of hiring a small team to hone their products for western tastes?
I mean, I'm sure some already do actually.
This is so interesting, and we've already seen the range of unfamiliar brands available in China (which seem super-cheap at their prices).
My ex worked as a clothes designer for a Chinese firm which produced ranges of garments to sell to the big retailers here. I wonder if bike factories will take the same approach of hiring a small team to hone their products for western tastes?
I mean, I'm sure some already do actually.
This is already happening in a major way in road cycling. It started with finishing kit and wheels, but is now becoming more technically advanced parts like frames and powermeters. See here:
https://road.cc/content/feature/chinese-bike-harry-hudson-rode-world-champs-gold-316143
It's a very worrying trend. The goal of China/the CCP is to become self sufficient and dominant in all areas of manufacturing and technology. It is doing this by suppressing its currency, impoverishing its people, and supporting key industries with massive subsidies. As I tried to point out earlier with my now deleted (but perfectly valid and reasonable) point about raising UK business costs/taxes to fund welfare, the UK and much of Europe simply cannot compete. You could probably run the Deviate office out of China for 1/6 of the UK costs. China does not have a massive welfare state, nor does it have a £12.21/hour minimum wage. Once Chinese businesses get established in any given industry, there will be no chance for European rivals. And all the while the Chinese regime grows stronger, and we grow weaker and more dependant upon them.
Does anyone ever wonder how many bike brands there can be? When you compare it to other markets for similarly priced sporting goods (racing sailing dinghies springs to my mind) there can't be anywhere near as many brands competing for the same market. In the racing dinghy world, there are around 20 builders in the UK and they're mostly one-man bands who only need to sell a handful a year to be profitable and most of them aren't competing with international brands.
Bike brand wise, there's absolutely loads in the UK competing for a very small slice of a small pie with tight margins, competition from global brands, margins built in for dealers, expensive products and waning demand. Even as someone who likes a niche brand (I've got three bikes from tiny European builders) I do wonder how its remotely sustainable. I like the look of Deviate's bikes a lot but maintaining ten staff when the market for your product must be miniscule must be so tough.
The spec on this for this price point is brilliant . if that was a California based brand it would be closer to 8k
Does anyone ever wonder how many bike brands there can be?
Yes.. I think it depends on the bikes. Carbon and e-bikes are big-brand products, needs a lot of investment and high volumes to make it work.
Simpler or lower-tech bikes can be brilliant and be done well (better?) by smaller companies, so that bike category could support a lot of smaller brands.
The problem is, this is a tech-fashion enthusiast market with a lot of marketing of minor stuff presented as making a major difference. In reality there's little real differentiation and it's a brand or spec value thing. E-bikes have given it all a shot in the arm but it wasn't one small brands could take much advantage of.
The spec on this for this price point is brilliant . if that was a California based brand it would be closer to 8k
It may be, but it's still a £6,000 bike with a quite niche use range - a non-e long travel MTB that isn't going to be a pedaller's choice. And selling on value while being a techy product is a risky place to be (I'm not saying that was Deviate's intention, just that's what's presented here).
Are there any sales numbers floating about for MTB's overall? I assume not but I'm curious as well how big the market is globally (or even nationally).
Just with very basic numbers a single employee on UK minimum wage costs a business ~£27,500/year based on 37.5hr week once you include NI contributions etc. or £2,300/month. So if you're selling a bike at £4k with a 20% profit margin then you need to sell 3/month per employee even completely ignoring all the other development & overhead costs (and I'd be surprised if they are all making 20% as a small-brand or paying everyone at the company minimum wage).
Obviously the vast majority of the market is probably BSO's sold in the low hundreds of £££ from mass retailers, but I'm curious how many monthly sales of say £2-5k MTB's the rest of the industry are competing for and existing on. Probably not a question that can be answered easily/at all just my internal ramblings.
Having said that apparently 75 million new cars were sold in 2024, with 2 million in the UK alone so perhaps I'm just struggling to grasp/visualise the actual scale of the markets!
Haven't seen any figures, but I would guess it's safe to say that sales of non-powered MTBs have got into the dozens this year.
some riders won't even consider a bike without a motor now
Messner once that's said society will fail because it's too lazy to go by foot.
I know nothing of the company but do wonder at their staffing.
Looking at someone like Cotic, that I also know very little about, I get the impression that Deviate employed a lot more to sell a lot less.
The staffing numbers seem odd considering they didn't produce anything but were effectively a designer/importer/distributer.
Doesn’t say they were full time, I don’t think.
Shocked and sorry to read about this happening to Deviate. They and the whole bike industry have been hit hard in recent years but I thought a company like Deviate would do well. I have had a Highlander since 2022 and it has served me and my type of riding brilliantly and the service from both Deviate and their dealer at 20Twenty have been first class. I really hope that they can arise from this and then continue in a revised form. Meanwhile a bitter blow to their staff in the run in to Christmas and thoughts are with them.
Deviate’s bikes always have a good account of themselves, courtesy of McTrail Rider.
If you’re doing small scale production, I’d bank on figuring out a way to 3-D print custom frames from hemp resin (other plants are available). Reinforced with Graphene.
That said, all the better if you can have your own (legal) hemp plantation at hand.
At the end of the day, it’s the intellectual property that generates the £££££££.
We look forward to their next ventures.
At the end of the day, it’s the intellectual property that generates the £££££££.
Indeed it there’s not much of that. I imagine the ip is around the kinematics and I doubt you have to move a pivot point much to be clear of the ip
The Claymore is such a good bike - shame to see them go under.
At least the assets got bought so there's a chance for some kind of continuation, even if it's not the same company.