[Closed] Destroying the Peak District trails, help required

There's a lot of activity surrounding this already. Peak District MTB ([url= http://www.peakdistrictMTB.org.uk ]www.peakdistrictMTB.org.uk)[/url] are in fact meeting with Derbyshire County Council tomorrow to discuss some of these trail repairs and the rationale behind them. If you or anyone you know has any comments, let them know.

Yep, hopefully I initiated some of that yesterday after a genuinely upsetting fellrun. The response has been amazing actually. The link above has been RT'd a lot - a few more can only help.

Singletrack have joined in.

And yes, I'll be emailing my thoughts prior to that meeting

I'm confused - is it the council or the National Trust?

Nation Trust said they did the work. Essential repair work after wash out, needed for emergency services/farms. Wouldn't say what else was planned though!

Sign on gate says a company called Woods did the work - meeting is with Derbyshire CC I believe.

Too much "maintenance" going on at the moment. Too many great trails have been ruined in The Peak

You are all aware that it's not a trail centre, right?

Pjbarton. It may help to learn some of the locations first & the first part of the climb to Jacobs Ladder has needed work for a long time now, same with the climb back up to south head from Royce clough.

The Peak District isn't a trail centre? Really? I had no idea!

[url= https://touch.facebook.com/groups/270969459606482?ref=bookmark ]peakdistrictmtb facebook group[/url]

I don't go off road in the Peak often, but I struggle to get upset about this.

Not every track in the Peak is being sanitised all at once

They are not designed to be just mountain bike trails, they are there for a variety of users and their needs/wants may be different to ours.

If we get too bolshy about it they may just decide that we are as bad as the motorised off roaders and ban us.

If we avoid the bits we don't like for a few months, Mother Nature will soon start to get it back how we like it. 😉

They are not designed to be just mountain bike trails, they are there for a variety of users and their needs/wants may be different to ours.

I could not agree more, but it's the nature of the works that is a concern. Having seen some of the work over near Longstone Edge, for example, it is neither in keeping with the environment nor is it going to last very long; many of the repaired trails are already deeply rutted.

It's our taxes that are paying for this work so we want to make sure we're getting value for money rather than getting a sticking plaster job. That's where groups like Peak District MTB can be a valuable liaison with the authorities.

I don't go off road in the Peak often, but I struggle to get upset about this.

Not every track in the Peak is being sanitised all at once

They are not designed to be just mountain bike trails, they are there for a variety of users and their needs/wants may be different to ours.

If we get too bolshy about it they may just decide that we are as bad as the motorised off roaders and ban us.

If we avoid the bits we don't like for a few months, Mother Nature will soon start to get it back how we like it.

What he said, now please stfu and leave it to the proper people...

They are not designed to be just mountain bike trails, they are there for a variety of users and their needs/wants may be different to ours.

I don't think anyone's saying that. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that repairs to a popular track within the boundaries of a National Park, carried out by a charitable body - the National Trust - which exists partly to preserve the landscape should be sympathetic to the landscape, sustainable and show some empathy for the needs of users.

I rode down the stuff the OP refers to at the weekend and it's just semi-consolidated rubble. Horrible for biking, walking and running alike - don't know about horses. It smacks of being a badly thought out, knee-jerk, low budget repair that's going to wash off as soon as the rain really gets at it. Makes no sense.

It also baffles me that so many people on here seem almost anti-mountain biking in the sense that they really don't care what happens to trails. I think that's a bit short sighted.

As far as the cost goes. As I understand it, it's not Derbyshire County Council (council tax funded, so I get to pay for that element of trail destruction) or the Peak District National Park (funded by government grants, ie: all of us) but the National Trust (funded by membership fees and cake and coffee sales, plus donations etc).

It can be done well, check out Cut Gate some time, but the stuff below Edale Cross is just a mess for everyone, not just mountain bikers.

Well, I'm prepared to be corrected but I thought the resurfacing work was being carried out by DCC as Highways Agent.

I think I'm particularly narked by the (lack of) quality of the work and just how far out of keeping with the local environment much of it is. E.g. Longstone Edge/Black Harry - black tarmac road planings on a bridleway/byway in limestone country. Ugh.

I just have a faint suspicion that someone has the idea that if trails are smoothed over, the "problem" of MTBers will go away.

what slowoldman said
The quality or complete and utter lack of of the 'repair' work (dumping of road planings) is a disgrace imo
Across from frogatt past stoney middleton, eyam and across that hillside most of the bridleways seem to have been subjected to the same fate. Dump a load of same grade plannings down the steep sloped track and hope for the best it would seem. Result ends up as the rain gauging a deep zig zagging rut down the path, the rest of the surface gets more lose as you descend. Then right at the bottom all that the rain has washed down gets swept on further down the road below

Loose rutted and dangerous for all users. Great job

ruts like this zig zagging its way through all the loose piling up of planings:
[img] [/img]

Where was that pic of the rut taken?

Also there are a number of bodies maintaining the trails DCC, NT, farmers etc and the quality and appropriateness varies massively.

There is a real increase in the level of anger about these works now too I'd say. Paul, what did the horse riders say when you spoke with them about it?

I saw a comment on twitter about being prosecuted for putting upvc windows in a listed building but that there's no regulation of suitable materials for repairing paths in National Parks (the landscape equivalent of a listed building).

It's a shame when innapropriate materials and techniques are used and the landscape becomes less natural looking and sustainability is lost. It seems to condemn them to transporting new surfaces up there each spring to repair damaged caused in the winter.

We might moan about it making trails less 'interesting' for mtb but I think that's not the line to take with the 'authorities' who might see it as a positive side effect of the works.

I just have a faint suspicion that someone has the idea that if trails are smoothed over, the "problem" of MTBers will go away.

Me too, although it is not such a faint suspicion in my case.

Face it, most other users or even non-users don't want us there. A very good argument for cheeky in my opinion.

Face it, most other users or even non-users don't want us there. A very good argument for cheeky in my opinion.

This thing where people have decided that other people hate mountain bikers, where has it come from? What makes you think that's the case?

If a trail is maintained in this way then surely they have a duty of care for its upkeep. Therefore, if that duty of care exsists and someone or group of someone's fell over and hurt themselves because if rutting etc I.e because the condition of the trail was not maintained and then said group of people sued the ass off them then perhaps they would stop sanitising everything in sight.

The only thing this works does is make people seek out cheeky trails IMHO.

roger/paul (on eyam 3) the descent from old rd out of eyam to the grindleford road

Thanks for your thoughts, pretty bemused by the negative stuff coming from MTBers, perhaps you'd need to see the quality of the work up close first - pretty heart breaking I can assure you!

The natural, solid features, the slabs and steps, these are trashed by a digger first - then the rubble is chucked down - that's about it. It's pretty hard to walk on, very hard to run on and boring (too fast) for MTB.

I'm NOT against maintenance. Just needs to be considerate, in keeping with the area etc.

Pook, I rarely see horse riders in the area so haven't spoken to any.

Never had any issues chatting to horsey people, fell runners or MTBers in the past - all getting along pretty well, enjoying the same environment. Occasional grumpiness from red socks ramblers when on a bike.

The area needs all these people to feel welcome and keep visiting, NT must know this.

pjbarton - can you drop me an email please - robjackson@hotmail.co.uk

I rode up Coldwell Clough on Saturday and I have to say that I didn't see a big problem with the work done. First of all the have used gritstone rather than the tarmac scalpings we've seen elsewhere in the peak. It was okay to ride up, but yes I can imagine that running down it wouldn't be too pleasant. It was about the same time last year when I last rode up it, so I can't comment on whether the repairs were really necessary or not. Although I do remember it was good, remarkably dry and rideable - a lungbuster rather than a technical challenge. The tough bits come higher up and haven't been touched (yet?). I don't think any rock steps have been destroyed.

The big question is how will the surface bed in after a year or two. The stones seem to be bigger than your usual gravel, so might be less likely to get washed away into ruts. What we really need is several tons of mud to be dropped on to it to bond it together (I have a longstanding and well founded phobia about loose gravel!). Hopefully once the farmer has driven his tractor, and cattle, up and down it a few times it will improve.

At the end of the day we can't expect a landowner to ignore things that are giving them problems just for the sake of our entertainment.

Sorry Paul - wrong Paul! I meant peakmtb Paul - I thought they'd had some talks with the horse riders

Hi Chris - just prepping for the meeting, we have had one meeting and there's another one in planning. The initial meeting was very good, just need to get a second one sorted. Cheers, Paul.

The big question is how will the surface bed in after a year or two. The stones seem to be bigger than your usual gravel, so might be less likely to get washed away into ruts.

Given that I've seen rocks the size of loafs of bread washed off the bottom of tracks into the road in Peak District cloud bursts, I suspect your optimism is slightly misguided.

This is a trail not so far away which had a slightly more bedded-in and not dissimilar surface. It's now tarmaced btw, with extensive drainage channels, culverts etc :

[img] [/img]

There seem to be plenty of people out there who take the view that landowners should just do what the hell they like because we have no right to expect otherwise. It's a peculiarly British thing that we somehow feel that forum for mountain bikers, we shouldn't speak out in favour of our own sport.

Why am I having to argue that poorly thought-out work by a charity dedicated in part at least to conserving the character of the landscape, which also drastically changes a popular mountain bike route is misguided?

What if the descent on the Edale side were similarly covered in loose rubble, would that be okay too if the landowner thought it was reasonable?

Do we really not want to have any rights?

john - are you still up for our meeting in the not to distant future, we NEED a rep from Hayfield area

How high up does the "repair" to the clough go? All the way to Edale Cross, up as far as Stony Ford, or lower?

Given that I've seen rocks the size of loafs of bread washed off the bottom of tracks into the road in Peak District cloud bursts, I suspect your optimism is slightly misguided.

This is a trail not so far away which had a slightly more bedded-in and not dissimilar surface. It's now tarmaced btw, with extensive drainage channels, culverts etc :

Yep, it might be, and I've seen lots of tracks like that pic (and worse) in Derbyshire, but generally where tarmac scalpings have been put down along narrow tracks. This is a much wider track, used by farm vehicles if I'm not mistaken, so it might hold up better.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have a word with the landowners, but the NT is generally pretty sympathetic to cyclists. Unlike the OP, I don't think this is part of plan to lay a similar surface all the way to edale.

Also, I don't think that as it stands, it drastically changes anything. They have done a much better job than say, DCC did on Stanage Causeway.

Hi Rob, yes, sorry, been frantically busy, but let's sort something out in the next few weeks.

The repair, as it was on Saturday by the way, went up as far as the point where the bridleway junction below Kinder Low is, so just beyond the second gate. The rest of the track is (was I suppose) untouched so far.

can you get some pics please?

How high up does the "repair" to the clough go? All the way to Edale Cross, up as far as Stony Ford, or lower?

A mile or so short of Edale Cross, just past the last gate, and about the point where the bridleway joins from the left. I presume that's as far as the farmer needs to take his tractor up to drop the feed.

Dan, I'd say about half way up.

There's actually other work in a more remote, lesser known area that's more devastating for MTB fun - and isn't used for land access as far as I know.

I would question whether the works in the photo amount to 'repair' or 'improvement' - an important difference as improvement is likely to be outside the EN SSSI management agreement, and would leave the landowner open to a sizeable fine (IIRC, this is what Wemmergill moor got done for a few years ago)

Might be worth approaching EN for clarification on whether the works were permitted.

The work up on Chinley Churn needs to be queried at tonights meeting as well. I opened a case with them on Monday enquiring who is doing the work and why? Ref is 414462 if that helps?

I urge you all to join the facebook group/twitter of our Advocay Group peakdistrictmtb.org. The more we can pool ideas, experiences, skills and knowledge the better for all of us.

Our Aims: Peak District MTB is an advocacy group aimed at using the collective voice of the Peak District's resident mountain bike community and seeks to improve, preserve and promote access interests for mountain bikers who live and ride within the Peak District National Park. We would also love to have the support of riders from outside the Park and you can offer this through joining us as a supporter member.

http://peakdistrictmtb.org/index.php/home

Why am I having to argue that poorly thought-out work by a charity dedicated in part at least to conserving the character of the landscape, which also drastically changes a popular mountain bike route is misguided?

It's called pragmatism. They could leave the track in a bumpy rutted state which made it a challenge for MTB'ers who used it once in a while and likely aren't NT members, to get up. Or they could make life easier for the people who work on the land and maybe have to use it every day and really don't want to face a bumpy rutted challenge each time they need to get up there. It's a working landscape. If it wasn't it would look very different.

Not saying it's best for me or us, but in this case it's different to DCC just sanitising trails.

[quote=thisisnotaspoon said]
Not saying it's best for me or us, but in this case it's different to DCC just sanitising trails.

The job they've had done is half arsed at best, sloppy, and certainly not a permanent solution. They've done a quick fix on the cheap, for reasons best known only to themselves, because they didn't have a consultation on their plans. It isn't sympathetic to the local environment, and certainly not in keeping with the NT's supposed reason for being.

This isn't sanitisation, this is just vandalism. The job that was done on the Royche, was sympathetic, and a demonstration of what's possible to repair a well used track, and keeping everyone happy.

The work done on Roych Clough received extra funding because it is a National Trail. Trying to do that level of repair to a typical highways budget is probably too big a challenge.

The job they've had done is half arsed at best, sloppy, and certainly not a permanent solution.

because they didn't have a consultation

isn't sympathetic

not in keeping with the NT's supposed reason for being.

This was Edale Rd in September on the section that has recently been refurbed.

This particular section has suffered quite badly with water erosion this year.

[img] [/img]

Hi Guys

Couldn't see any reference to this:

[url= http://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/peak-district-rider-survey/ ]http://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/peak-district-rider-survey/[/url]

Apologies if it's redundant.

P

[quote=thisisnotaspoon said]Time will tell, the surface on Jaggers clough seems to be lasting well, I've not noticed it being repaired for ~10 years.

The track down into Jaggers clough from the south has a drainage channel and steps to help divert the water from it, and on the way up towards hope cross, the ground isn't particularly peaty, and clears water very quickly after rain. The same cannot be said for the peaty soil around broad clough. I've not been up myself yet, but the discussions I've had with folk that have, suggest that any drainage channels that are on the "repaired" section are minimal at best. If the water flow down the track was sufficient to erode and dislodge the bedrock, and the larger bits of loose rock in the trail, it'll make fairly light work of some 2cm stones...

because they didn't have a consultation What would you have said, "more drop offs please"?

No, I'd have asked that they consider a sypathetic repair to the trail, and make it usable for all users, including mountain bikers, horse riders, walkers and runners. All that loose crud is frankly dangerous.

isn't sympathetic
Actualy it's a fairly standard technique for protecting old paths, burry them under a foot of something else to protect them from damage from modern trafic.

[url= http://www.snh.org.uk/uplandpathwork/3.1.shtml ]http://www.snh.org.uk/uplandpathwork/3.1.shtml[/url]

Filling in a trench with aggregate does not help blend it in with the local surroundings. The trench before, whilst not in great nick, at least looked like it belonged there...

not in keeping with the NT's supposed reason for being.
Forever, for everyone? MTB'ers =/= everyone

The NT's general perpous is:

The National Trust shall be established for the purposes of
promoting the permanent preservation for the benefit of the nation of
lands and tenements (including buildings) of beauty or historic interest and as regards lands[b] for the preservation of their natural aspect features[/b] and animal and plant life.

Preserving a track in it's "natural aspect" goes along with the idea of a sympathetic restoration, not filling it in with 2 cm gravel.

I have just come back from a ride which included the drop from Eyam through Stoney Middleton which I think is the subject of a wheel swallowing rut photo earlier in this thread. Well the news is , somebody was listening! There was a guy working there with a mini digger dumping and leveling yet more tons of gravel/aggregate.
If anybody can remember this used to be a wet, rocky and slippy descent before it was sanitized the first time. Although it could be tricky it never produced the ruts caused by a casual skim and tons of gravel.
Once they start the sanitizing process the Council or National Trust have to keep going because the new surfaces can wear much quicker than the original natural surface especially if rock.

I went up Edale Rd as far as Stony Ford.

Can't really see what the fuss is about. The bottom section that for years had limestone ball bearings is much better.

The (current) works goes as far as the turn off to Kinder Low, above that, so far it's the same as before.

Pictures go from the bottom gate as far as the gnarly bit below the ford.

Note the alt. (created) path above the improved sections. There is lots more of this stuff above the ford. In fact the fence on the lower section was built some years back as the field was ridden in preference to the track.

There are obviously lots of riders on Edale Rd and elsewhere who don't have the awesumz skillz of the average STW rider.

[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/richseipp/sets/72157641870178353 ]http://www.flickr.com/photos/richseipp/sets/72157641870178353[/url]

Top job getting the pictures Rich. The material they've put down is far bigger than I expected, I was expecting scalpings or similar but that looks pretty substantial. Any evidence of them continuing further up?

I'm off to check your Strava times to make sure you haven't claimed an Edale road KOM!

In all seriousness, the ruts were in desperate need of repair and that repair work isn't nearly as bad as I expected. I was hoping to get up to Chinley Churn tonight to see what the situation is up there, but didn't get chance. Any once else been up?

There looks to be a few inches only of cover, there is a transition picture.

I'll pop up Chinley Churn tomorrow.

I got a few PRs tonight even though I was stopping for pictures. 😈

I have to say this seems a bit odd to me. In my experience the NT go to great lengths to do repairs to paths, drystone walls etc in a sympathetic and sustainable way. Might it be temporary or some other agency?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/richseipp/sets/72157641870178353

I'm going to pop back and take another look at this when I get the chance. I wonder if maybe the sudden change from the existing surface to the new one when you're heading towards Hayfield makes it feel worse than it is.

And at the back of my mind is the question of, if the NT can do this low down on the that track, what's to stop it happening to the entire length of the trail from the top of the Jacob's climb.

The track needed work on the length that has been covered if we are all honest. The surface was really broken up and undermined in patches.

This was Edale Rd in September on the section that has recently been refurbed

Richpips - I'm presuming Coldwell Clough and Edale Road are one and the same, so just wondering how far up the track that pic was taken. When I rode up it in Jan 2013 I'm pretty sure the all the stuff that has been worked on was rideable, so for something that dramatic to appear in 8 months of relatively dry weather (ah, remember that!) is testament to the fact that work was needed.

And as you point out, limestone has been replaced (or covered) with gritstone, which is to be applauded

so just wondering how far up the track that pic was taken.

Looking at the pictures I'm almost certain the repair finishes here:

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=406648&Y=386092&A=Y&Z=115

looking at the map it would appear that the work finishes at the national park boundary, which may or may not be significant

Not that being inside the national park seemed to concern DCC with their works on Wigley lane or Stanage Causeway

I'm confused. are we saying that now we've seen the repairs on Edale road we're happy with them or are we still angry?

I see the horse rider avoided the boulders.

The horse did, but you'll also see a number of tyre marks there.

It's very rare that I see a horse up there though.

I'm presuming Coldwell Clough and Edale Road are one and the same

Coldwell Clough is at the bottom of the section. If you know where Edale Cross is, the track that joins the two.

Hayfield has had some very heavy rain events in 2013. We had nearly two inches of rain in under an hour on one day, which caused lots of localised flooding and damaged a number of trails in part. I can think of a few sections that had similar big holes as the one my bike is pictured in above.

I'm confused. are we saying that now we've seen the repairs on Edale road we're happy with them or are we still angry?

Seems like they've done a good job to me. Once there's been some traffic and weather it'll be OK.

In that case are we all tweeting DCC with the good news or do we only tweet bad news?

Its hard work being outraged

@Podge - at some point we'll level out at mildly ambivalent.

Ok, I'm downgrading my status to tepid

Its hard work being outraged

Looks like some outrage may be in order.

I went up Phoside earlier and took some piccies.

I spoke to someone up there (not the tenant, or landowner) and they have fenced off a large section of Foxholes Clough to plant 6000 broad leaf trees.

There used to be a path that I always used as a descent (which is marked on the map SK 034 857) this is now inaccesible. Instead you have to continue to SK 034 858 before turning right.

From the bottom.
[url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7339/12949538415_ccf319c472.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7339/12949538415_ccf319c472.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

From the top.
[url= http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3695/12949638843_f4b0bd140f.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3695/12949638843_f4b0bd140f.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

I also went up to the track to New Allotments. They are rebuilding the wall, and appear to be chucking the junk into holes in the path. No one to talk to up there though.

Other pics here -> http://www.flickr.com/photos/richseipp/sets/72157641908288783/

I've reported the Phoside BW loss to the DCC.

Is that actually a BW though or footpath?
Admittedly everything else around there is BW, but putting those GR's on the map, looks like that one section is a footpath to me?

Crap, I just told the navy they have extended shore leave, they'll not be happy about this.

Is the one in the pic above an actual bridalway? It must be the least used one in the world

Hmm, on the 1:50 it looked like a BW, on the 1:25 it's a FP.

Either way it's a blocked ROW.

Yup, that looks like a FP, but still a ROW. Where the get-out will be is that it is 'only' 100m of FP with a BW running alongside the fence, so I hear the response now, saying that a viable alternative is available.

I took a walk down off Kinder via Edale cross today. The resurfacing doesn't look bad (one of my big gripes with DCC is their use of road planings on nice limestone terrain).

How it will age is the question. It might bed down nicely or get washed out into runnels depending on the weather. Anyway, it's pretty horrible at the moment to walk on and I would imagine not much fun on horseback. A bike is probably the best option.

Hmm, on the 1:50 it looked like a BW, on the 1:25 it's a FP.
Either way it's a blocked ROW..

While they should have put a note up about closing a RoW and yes it looks like a fun bit but is the alternative much more hassle?

There's a line in the sand Dude.

not anymore, its been resurfaced... badum tish

Having ridden Edale road with some intent to get up there quickly today, I can say it rides OK from the bottom.

Loads better than it was before. Traction is still marginal though. It should settle nicely.

The top section above Stony Ford is still wild west though.

I did see a couple of NT landies up near the top. No sign of them doing further work though.

I rode Roych Clough last weekend. Its actually ok. I was expecting a Chapel Gate surface

A mate was telling me that the rubble chute drop from Rebellion Knoll to Brough has had the classic motorway treatment. Not seen it myself and it might be old news but the sanitisation program seems to be gathering pace.