[Closed] Dengfu/Hongfu/Carbonzone

Depends what you mean by branded. If Ribble is in that category, then yes, I think there are some threads about that say what's what.

oh dear god not again! run for the hedges!

* suffice it to say opinion is split on this one.

short answer to precis a lot of the other threads, you can play 'spot the mould shape' but guaranteeing the quality of the fibre is a completely different game

[url= http://velobuild.com/ ]velobuild forum will sort you out, just click![/url]

Cheers. I'm aware of the potential quality differences. However, I don't imagine they use two different processes for the same mound. I used to work for a third tier automotive supplier. There was a car at that time which was identical between two different manufacturers. We'd check the finished item against the spec for the more prestigious company, then take the rejects bin down to another station and check them against the standards for the second company. The good examples could be of the same standard for both, it was just that the band of what was acceptable was a good bit wider.

Nope if you want a top brand buy it. A frame looking the same is fine if you buy and think you are riding a top notch bike. It is just like all the "fakes" in China a take handbags they look the same feel the same but tgey are not the same as the correct one. Companies view brand security as important and if people think that some bikes are exactly the same just put out the cheap door rather than the expensive door. Remember copies are not breaking any rules in China the powers at be are with people coping anything just google China copy cars or trucks.

Have you seen the quality of fake handbags from China?

I've seen Mulberry etc and its exact. So much so that in one I located the QC sticker in the same place. Made me think 'made inItaly'? More like finished in Italy/manufactured in China.

That's the thing, I wouldn't expect to find a tarmac, venge, domane, madone etc direct from China but I think you could get a ribble or a planet x.

Not wanting to start a different debate, but does it matter? Think there's enough info and reviews out there now from people who have these frames (velobuild for example) to consider them on their own merits, rather than try and draw some comparison with models from a brand that sells bikes in the UK.

That's the thing, I wouldn't expect to find a tarmac, venge, domane, madone etc direct from China but I think you could get a ribble or a planet x.

You won't get a Ribble or a Planet X. You could potentially get a frame that came from the same mould, same factory, same process, etc. but it wouldn't be a Ribble or a Planet X or a Specialized or a Trek etc.

the Chinese quite possibly lead the way in terms of carbon manufacture (at least for bicycle frames).

However, I don't imagine they use two different processes for the same mound.

The good examples could be of the same standard for both, it was just that the band of what was acceptable was a good bit wider.

Mate has bought a Chinarello and really loves it

'some' rather than 'the' Chinese, I'd say.

The vast majority of the big brands come out of Taiwan, rather than mainland China (Trek/Spesh/Giant/Scott etc), yet virtually all the eBay brands are from the mainland. No idea if that's significant.

I did a bit of Internet research on this and the conclusion I came to was that the big names ( I think I was looking mostly at Trek) use all different factories, sometimes even for the same model! I also got the impression that it was mostly Taiwan rather than China but I should imagine these things are changing all the time.

Taiwan is certainly considered better quality than mainland China and is the centre of the bike industry.

I also got the impression that it was mostly Taiwan rather than China but I should imagine these things are changing all the time.

Not really - I've never seen a "Made in China" sticker on a Trek or Spesh after 11 years working in a dealer, every one says "Made in Taiwan", and to my knowledge the 'big boys' don't change factories that readily (although they may have multiple sites) - they've got a lot of invested expense and expertise at these places.

There are some articles out there saying that a lot of the frame manufacture happens in China. They are then shipped to Taiwan for finishing and so the sticker is "made in Taiwan", which is more acceptable to consumers.

The issue is that the large producers will have a QC person watching the process, so you know that the required fibres, layup and curing process is used.
For their own brand, they often copy the moulds, but you have no idea of the fibres, layup and curing.

It just makes it such a minefield wondering if money is well spent on trek/[s]specialized[/s]/giant or is the ribble/plant x better vfm? Or can you get the same open mound frame for less money.

i'm not convinced the handbag analogy is a particularly good one. If the strap falls off it then its no big deal, where as if the frame snaps at 40 mph and a truck is behind you it probably is.

Now I'm not saying that all chinese frames are bad, far from it, and I imagine my planet x is just a rebranded version. The key for me would be having confidence that it isn't going to fail disasterously. Ie has it come out exactly the same factory, or has it been put together by someone whos got hold of a mold but has no idea of the carbon layup process, and hasn't given much thought to the structural integrity. Although I'm sure that may only apply to 5-10% off cheap replicas, its not a chance I'm willing to take for a saving of a few hundred quid over a planet x/ribble

The vast majority of the big brands come out of Taiwan, rather than mainland China (Trek/Spesh/Giant/Scott etc)

For their own brand, they often copy the moulds, but you have no idea of the fibres, layup and curing.

I'd think of it the other way.

I have no idea what Cannondales ultra high modulous CF is, or how it compares to Trek's latest revision of OLCV. But I can go on the Toray website and see what T700 is.

The big brands are in the business of making the process as obscure as possible to make the value added apear as high as possible. Heck, i'd not be supprised to find some carbon frames had a glassfibre content.

I'd have faith in carbon frames, there's not a lot you can cut costs with, assuming they're not lying and using different fibres to whats advertised, and even if they did, they could have done the same with an 853 tubeset sticker. They're hardly likely to de doing something stupid like uing polyester of vinylester resins rather than epoxy are they?

^^ what he said

Plenty of direct China carbon frames out there being abused for a number of years now.

The vendors are well aware of forums and how quickly a shonky product can damage them.

So far my direct China stuff has been faultless. The customer service too - which has been tested by some people with positive results.

new 2013 or 2014 SWORKS stumpie 29er hardtail for circa £2500 (or £3500 with RockShox SID World Cup 29 Brain forks)

OR

[url= http://www.aliexpress.com/item/carbon-frame-29er-carbon-mountain-bike-frame-mtb-frame-frame-headsets-clamp-17-5-19-in/1443590312.html ]nice looking and identical carbon frame from the same mould[/url]

for £360 plus change POSTED!

I'd have faith in carbon frames, there's not a lot you can cut costs with

Labour and QC/QA process is a major cost in a carbon frame and there's a lot of corners that can be cut there.

the one thing I take from this is that, if you buy second hand 'high end' carbon frames off ebay etc make sure you see the original receipt etc showing its from a bona fida outlet and you weren't buying a Chinese 'copy' at twice the price!

nice looking and identical carbon frame from the same mould

I'm not scaremongering. I've seen really nice carbon frames from well-respected brands made in the same building as knock-offs of brands that they have no working relationship with. Are they both made to the same quality? I doubt it, but they may be. Who knows. I don't care tbh, all it does is make me question the factory's general policies, but then we're into stuff about cultural differences over IP.

I have a Chinese carbon frame. It's the same design as a Fuji Altamira Disc. What I have no way of knowing is how the carbon has been put together in comparison to the Fuji or even what type(s) of carbon is actually used, only that it has the same outside (eg mould) dimensions.

Now, I spent a long time researching who to buy mine from and it's a company that has a good rep and I haven't yet found an unhappy customer or tales of issues with failures. Obviously the volumes are lower than big brands but given that many/most people buying Chinese frames are doing so after finding them online, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that they'd post online to complain if they had problems.

As it goes, my first one did crack (not in a catastrophic way but a warranty failure still) and the Chinese company were very good at resolving it. Certainly better than many peoples' experiences of 'proper' brands.

So, my point (finally) is that using the same mould means little. As above, QC, etc can massively affect the product so you need to pick a company with a good reputation.

A bit like buying any bike even if it doesn't come from China...

I'm quite interested how the cheap groupsets and full bikes are. I'm prepared to concede that a Chinese factory may be able to copy a mould and produce decent frames (I have a chinese open-mould frame myself) but I do wonder how suspension and drivetrain are.

Anyone actually set eyes on those at all and tried them out?

As said, I think companies such as Hongfu/Dengfu etc who sell plain frames have their own reputation to think about, and you don't find many tales of failures there. Probably wouldn't go for a frame falsely labelled as Pinarello or whatever though.

I've had a Microshift mini groupo from China and its fine. Not quite Shimano, but ok for the price (and very light).

I bought a carbon 29er rigid fork from flyxii and is been faultless, taken some real punishment especially with me being no light weight! Only cost £60 shipped. I don't know if it's a copy of any branded fork, I've just got a carbon disc cyclocross fork for my rx9 hopefully this one won't kill me! It looks well made and finished. Fingers crossed! !! 😉

I have seen the quality of copy handbags, I have been in a factory making them. They feel and look the same but they are not the same. You can pretty much buy anything fake there including Eggs!! I dont buy this it came from the same factory so its the same product. More like it was made in the same factory with less attention to quality and built using poor cheap materials.

I know nothing about roadbikes. Which is a good cheap frameset? I can build the bike myself

I'm basically researching the same question. Wondering if it's worth hanging ultegra 6800 on one of these.

Interested in the link between ribble and de Rosa. Although it's got me looking at de Rosa more than ribble.

I wouldn't mind a carbon 26er to run SS

Labour and QC/QA process is a major cost in a carbon frame and there's a lot of corners that can be cut there.

True, but how is that unlike a steel frame? If anything the steel frame requires nothing more than a man (or woman) a tig machine and a jig (which the man with the tig welder can make). By the time you've invested 10's/100's of £k's in the molds, ovens, vacuum equipment, clean rooms, etc for CFRP production, are the people doing that likely to be the type to cut corners when there must surely be quicker bucks to be made elsewhere?

I don't believe you can get the same frame from 2 different (major) brands, minor re-badging brand maybe, but not the big ones. The same mold maybe more common, but that's like finding two double diamond steel frames, one gas pipe the other 853, or even just two different custom buttings of 853.

Are you sure it's identical and from the same mold, same factory? Knowing how hot Specialized are on IP..?

It couldn't look less like a 2013, 2014 or any other S-Works if it tried! It's just painted vaguely like one. That frame is sold by thousands of manufacturers, an S-Works copy it most certainly isn't! Scandalous if you're convinced by a bit of paint I have a [s]VW Golf[/s] Ferrari I'd sell you for just £8,000!

In fact you may as well write S-Works on a stick, would be close to a 'frame from the same mould'.

^ yes, that's sort of what I was asking. Thanks for clarifying it )

think you missed the point!

OK sublety missed. Considering the number of 'but it looks just like ... ' comments on here, about things that look about that similar, any wonder?!

My Flyxii road build. Frame, fork and headset less than £300 delivered to my door and it rides beautifully.

[url] http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/chinese-carbon-roadie-build-flyxi-flx-fr-322 [/url]

Aah, good, as long as you were being sarcastic! I guess the problem is that plenty of folk aren't - they really think their Chinarellos (most of which are actually Kuota replicas, or at best a Prince, rather than a Dogma) really do come out of the back door of the Pinarello factory.

I reckon the majority of those companies are excellent, but I'd sooner buy a 'house style' frame over an attempted replica.

I wouldnt worry about buyimg Chinese carbon having seen a Wilier road frame with a bloody great crack in the top tube which was caused by sharp braking to avoid a truck and a testicle to top tube interface and nothing else .They cost a grand for the frame !!

I guess the problem is that plenty of folk aren't - they really think their Chinarellos (most of which are actually Kuota replicas, or at best a Prince, rather than a Dogma) really do come out of the back door of the Pinarello factory.

I think its funny that you think people think that. Oh dear.

When it comes to getting these frames, people aren't as stupid or naive as you obviously think.

I must admit, I'm now considering an anonymous far eastern frame because I get more freedom over the livery and enough money left over in the budget for much nicer kit.

I'm tempted to believe that I'm too much of a philistine to appreciate how big brand A tracks better the big brand B through the corners but big brand C is more compliant for all day riding.

My thinking is more along the lines of, if it fits and the saddle, bars and wheels/tyres are comfortable, I'll be fine.

I think the reason I'm finding buying a road bike so hard, is that I'm looking for technology and advances that don't really seem to stretch beyond the marketing department.

Edric 64 - Member
I wouldnt worry about buyimg Chinese carbon having seen a Wilier road frame with a bloody great crack in the top tube which was caused by sharp braking to avoid a truck and a testicle to top tube interface and nothing else .They cost a grand for the frame !!

Slight tangent and I tend to agree with the general point you seem to be making (that branded isn't necessarily any better than not) but top tubes on £1k road frames (read "lightweight", usually) aren't designed for you to land on, balls first or not 😉

I bought a bike off a guy who was sponsored by his local shop to race on the road. It wasn't the lightness that suprised (my <£1k build is on the UCI limit too), but that when I picked it up by the top tube you could crush is in your hand!

Slightly scary, but apparently still perfectly stif enough.

I used to have a Manitou HT frame and you could feel the toptube flex in your fingers.

When it comes to getting these frames, people aren't as stupid or naive as you obviously think.

Some are, certainly not all, but plenty of people think they're buying a frame that's been siphoned off the same production line as a 'real' Dogma for some reason or other. It's greed.

ok 🙄

Not quite sure what your problem is Chunky?

Are you saying that everyone who buys those frames knows 100% they're completely fake? First thread I found: [url= http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=15079 ]Sure no one is as naive and stupid as this?[/url] 🙄

There's loads of people saying (and thus presumably genuinely thinking) they come out of the same factory as a 'real' Pinarello/Colnago/Cervelo/Kuota.

FWIW, I had a Chinese carbon MTB frame, and I'd have another one without hesitating.

How many are 'loads' of people?

Put your handbags away and stop spoiling the thread. Or do it by email, if you must. Silly argument 🙄

Yep, agreed. Not sure what I've done. Drop me a line Chunky!xxx

Back (vaguley) on topic - is the Chinese carbon wheels - FarSports etc. I can't work out how they get their rims to weigh less than those costing 10 times as much. 1200g 38mm carbon clinchers are miles ahead of Zipp/Easton/Bontrager/Enve etc.

I suppose the cost is propoprtional to the R&D and marketing.

I bet farsports have been nowhere near any CFD or a windtunnel, just sketch a rim profile and CNC a mould from it, voila an 'aero' rim. Probably very close to the big brands profile too. Combine that with almost zero marketing budget and youve got cheep wheels.

And theres nothing to say they're not just different points on the supply/demand curves, neither may be optimum. Easton may be overpriced, farsport maybe under priced. I do think that road wheels are one place though where the money spent has little to do with the value of the product. You could buy a box of farsport rims, build them up, put a sticker on them and sell them for any price you can pull out of the air. Someone would see them as 'better value' than zipps, someone else would pay more than from farsport as they're a better brand.

I guess, but they're not the same as Zipp etc for less money, they're lighter.

With Stan's appearing to have done the first <300g carbon clincher MTB 29er rim with Eastern origins (or at all?) it'll be interesting to see if anyone like LB 'copies' it.

You could buy a box of farsport rims, build them up, put a sticker on them and sell them for any price you can pull out of the air.

Pretty sure at least one of the previously mentioned retailers in the UK do this with frames, pedals, bars etc

Isn't that exactly what Superstar do with all their components, and are very open about it.

The BikeRumor lot are particularly blood thirsty on this - when you get a 'new manufacturer' doing wheels for 'just $1500', people often end up finding the exact clone of the rim from China.

I dont have a problem with the practice but I think it takes the piss when they try to pretend that they've done loads of R&D when all the research was a catalogue or a visit to Eurobike.

Totally agree, and it does seem fairly widespread. Why wouldn't you though really!?

I agree, if you've got a proprietary process. private moulds and performance and price that match it, then fine. Also, if you've just taken an open mould frame, painted it and made no special claims, that's also fine. Personally, I'm not too happy with the charlatans who carefully imply it's unique or special/different when actually, all they've done is look at the same direct from Taiwan website I could use.

The only flipside of that is that you're getting someone else who's (hopefully) done some sort of vetting, a simpler warranty process, quicker turnaround, no customs fees etc etc.

There's a company in the US that charges a premium for frames made and painted by the people who made my frame by classing them as US-designed when they mean the paint scheme rather than the frame. They've been slammed on a load of forums but seem to sell enough not to care.

I have the farsport 38mm clinchers, 2500 miles in and so far they have been amazing. Now my friends mostly s**** when i say they are direct from china, but im delighted with them.

I also ride a Cannondale made in the far east, typing on a computer made in the far east.

My latest squeeze is from the Far East. Wouldn't go back now.

I've a nice Chinese carbon 29er frame for sale if anyone's interested 😉

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/fs-chinese-carbon-29er-frame-ip-057

Anyone point me to the Chinarello's on ebay? 🙂

You don't have £8 for carbon paste but you are buying a new frame?

Get ones priorities right

Aliexpress is another source. I can recommend Miracle Cycles

Have run Carbonzone carbon clinchers for two years with no issues (on some shocking roads)

Any decent very small size (around 15") 26" FS carbon frames about?

hora - Member
Get ones priorities right

They are utterly wrong.

If I had a penny for every clown coming into my shop looking for bling then whining that it costs money to service etc...

Anyone who buys a "Chinarello" has got their pritorities completely back-to-front IMO.

They might look similar to an expensive (but not v attractive) bike, but the important stuff in carbon frames is what you can't see. The quality of material and construction used.

It's hard to keep track of all your roadie posts Hora, did you already try better wheels on your PX?