[Closed] Dear Rockshox

... and why not offer a "suspension seatpost" setting option for my hardtails Reverb?

Dear PJM1974 whats wrong with 15mm? I really can't feel it being any worse

What's wrong with a 20mm axle on a trail fork?

You asking the wrong person Mr Rockshox pushed 20mm hard before Fox came along and spoiled the party, they could have easily adopted the RS standard or at least used the same size so the hubs would all be compatible

Wasn't it Shimano as their cup and cone didn't extend to 20mm, but worked with 15? Then they lent on Fox to push the 15mm "standard".

[i]Wasn't it Shimano as their cup and cone didn't extend to 20mm[/i]

The Saint 20mm axle sitting in my spares box would suggest that's probably not true

You really can't put this one on Rockshox, they pushed for 20mm as it's the better standard but Fox/Shimano got the big OEs behind them.

(how many times have you read about "lightweight QR15"? 20mm was almost always the lighter option (except the really old maxles) as well as stiffer. I remember MBR once captioned a picture showing this with "lightweight qr15" even with the correct answer right in front of them. But it's an easy message, "smaller = lighter" so it doesn't matter that it's bollocks.)

I know that 15mm was a Shimano/Fox innovation, but 20mm was the accepted standard beforehand and is betterer (probably).

I'd have expected a new Lyrik (and Pike for that matter) to be 110x20 and not any of this 100x15 / 110x15 bollix.

Does it really make that much (if any) difference?

I have the choice with my fork, it had the 15mm adapters in when it turned up & i've never felt the need to put the 20mm axle in.

Having the axle clamped by pinch bolts at both ends makes a bigger difference (not expanding wedge like maxle or...well nothing with fox 15mm).

Yes, yes it does.

It's the 110x115mm thing that I can't get over. If you include QR, we now have four axle standards to deal with when three (or even two, dammit!) would be perfectly fine.

More standards = more expensive aftermarket kit, simple as.

110mm x15 is totally spacerable though. And universally spacerable I think, albeit a pain in the arse.

[i]Does it really make that much (if any) difference?[/i]

yeah, it's one of the few things that does make a difference, achoooally.

Having the axle clamped by pinch bolts at both ends makes a bigger difference (not expanding wedge like maxle or...well nothing with fox 15mm).

Is that anecdotal or was there some testing? Does that explain why Fox went back to bolts for the new 36? Shame they're such a PITA.

WRT 15mm vs 20mm - I hear you loud and clear - but I can't help feel the battle was lost a couple of years ago.

Yeah I set up my own testing facility and did and exhaustive comparison between all the available forks on the market.
I can send you a 143 page powerpoint presentation if you like.

Does it come with a soothing voice over?

Yeah I set up my own testing facility and did and exhaustive comparison between all the available forks on the market.
I can send you a 143 page powerpoint presentation if you like.

I just meant did you read of a study into such things.

Sheesh.

It makes a difference when I have 3 bikes, 2 on 20mm and one on 15mm, and 5 front wheels, of which only 2 convert to 15mm. Ruined cross compatibility. It's all a conspiracy!

That's quite useful though, it helps you identify wheel manufacturers that you should never buy from.

That's quite useful though, it helps you identify wheel manufacturers that you should never buy from.

This.

as an aside, although I'm frequently scornful of Fox products, at least they've given us the choice as to whether we want 100x15, 110x15 and 110x20 on the same fork, thus saving on tooling costs and simplifying things for the consumer. I wish it were the norm for the industry.

I'd be happy if they let us have coil forks again, with U-turn.

I can't say I notice any difference between 15mm and 20mm axles. But, all of my forks are 20mm, except one. I have loads of 20mm wheels that are basically redundant as I upgrade my forks. What do you do when your wheels are too nice to chuck out, but the forks are past their best?

Bastards.

I couldn't find the 15mm adaptors for my traversees- they did exist but 8 years on seem to be unobtainable. So I got a random pair of 15mm adaptors, machined the 20mm adaptors down to be narrower and then the 15mms to fit into the 20s. Obviously not something everyone can do but it should apply to most wheels and it's basically 15 minutes with a lathe. Even with a shit lathe like mine, and a shit operator like my lathe's 😉

Universal adaptor innit.

mikewsmith - Member
Dear PJM1974 whats wrong with 15mm? I really can't feel it being any worse

There was already a lighter and (allegedly) stiffer through axle system with great hub availability from all manufacturers including shimano before 15mm. It even came on the rs reba team for a couple of years.

As above, smaller does not always equal lighter (as we were told with numerous other new improved standards that involved things getting bigger and yet somehow lighter), and it seems lost in the hype that as a whole system you could still build a comaprably priced/specced and reliable 20mm front end lighter and (again allagedly- how do you really really know?) stiffer than a 15mm one.

I'm fairly sure 'overall' you can build a like for like setup with a 15mm axle lighter than a 20mm setup, because you can save a chunk on the hub.

Obviously if you're using a hub that can convert between 15-20mm it's not applicable, but there are 15mm hubs that are quite a bit lighter than those that will take 20mm axles.

15/20mm is a real non issue for everyone I ride with. It wouldn't change whether someone was considering a fork or not.

Is that anecdotal or was there some testing? Does that explain why Fox went back to bolts for the new 36? Shame they're such a PITA.

Fox were clamped both sides before on the 36 anyway? The reason they ditched the levers on both fork legs was weight.

It was down to categorisation, ie 20mm was 'DH' and QR was old-school XC, so Shimano+Fox teamed up for something in between so that everything seemed optimised. They decided that 15mm was better with some sound (but minor) reasons but imo not enough reason to not use an existing standard. I think ~70g lighter was the figure going around.

See also 12mm front baxles on road bikes, coming soon-ish. A PITA because there's plenty of light 29er wheels around with 15mm axles and 17-21mm rims that would be great on a gravel/cx bike. But no, 12mm is being pushed as the new road standard. Shimano again. Luckily most 15mm hubs with sealed bearings will be convertable down to 12mm so it's only a minor faff for riders.

110mm x15 is totally spacerable though

jameso - Member

I think ~70g lighter was the figure going around.

But was made up. Or rather, was arrived at with unrealistic/unfair comparisons.

For a fair comparison, the difference between the oversize 20mm DT240 hub and the normal 15mm DT hub is 20 grams. Maxle and QR15 weights changed quite a lot over the years so direct comparison is trickier but mostly the 32mm QR15mm was a few grams heavier (because small tubes need more material to be as stiff as larger ones). Only thing I can't directly compare is fork lowers but that'll be grams. (and in a really good design, the stiffer axle could shed weight elsewhere)

So a trivial weight difference in the complete package, at best. And most folks ended up using convertible hubs do both 20mm and 15mm which ironically makes 15mm and QR heavier (or midrange, unlight shimano hubs)

^ it seemed to be an average of forks and hubs, but even so, 70g. Big deal : ) I can't say I was interested enough to make an XL sheet for that one.

The point about convertable hubs shells will also make the road 12mm thing a bit of a moot point in reality, as far as promoting a weight-saving package goes.

Axle grumpiness aside, nice to see RS come up with a beefier single-crown fork.

I expect I might enjoy owning one in a few years time.

A 140 gram beefier fork. Like you are going to notice the difference in stiffness.

Rock Shox have shot themselves in the foot with the new Lyrik, manufacturers will just spec the pike as it's not much different and lighter.

All they had to do was make a single crown Boxxer instead of a longer travel Pike

Rock Shox have shot themselves in the foot with the new Lyrik, manufacturers will just spec the pike as it's not much different and lighter.

I think manufacturers will jump on it for the burlier end of the enduro market. Keeping the weight down to 2kg is very smart IMO.

Shall we come back in a year or two and see who's right?

It's too close to the Pike and it costs as much as the 36.

The 36 has an arguably better damping cartridge, 36mm stanchions and a 20mm pinch bolt axle (a LOT stiffer and will appeal to dhers with 20mm wheels) all at the same weight. Whilst the 34 weighs 1700 grams. 300 grams lighter than this new Lyrik or 36 and 100 odd grams lighter than a pike.

Fox have nailed product differentiation, Rock Shox have not.

Anyone who thinks that the Lyric won't be popular because it's "not much heavier than a Pike" is an idiot. They'll be everywhere. Charge damper, longer travel, not much weight penalty… they'll be EVERYWHERE.

As for 20mm Vs 15mm ?
The bike industry is a collective arse and we just have to accept it and move on. Grumpily.

Tom_W1987 - Member

The 36 has an arguably better damping cartridge, 36mm stanchions and a 20mm pinch bolt axle (a LOT stiffer and will appeal to dhers with 20mm wheels)

Good man, to tell all that from a couple of photos. I think everyone who's in the market for a fork like this knows that Rockshox 35mm is directly competitive with Fox 36mm- it's nothing new, after all, Boxxer and Lyrik have been 35mm forever and nobody with the slightest clue ever said they wanted an extra mm because it'd be stiffer.

The bike industry is a collective arse and we just have to accept it and move on. Grumpily.

No, we don't have to accept it. We're the consumers, we buy this stuff and it irks me no end that the industry are being dicks about standards when they don't need to be.

I'd have thought that the one thing the Lyrik should have to differentiate it from the Pike would be a 20mm axle. Also no straight steerer version like Fox continue to offer with their 36?

Why would it need the 20mm? If they can get the stiffness from the 15mm then why bother throwing the old standard back into the mix. Also why bother with straight steerer? Again (flame proof suit time) it's an old standard, if you are going to shell out for a new fork then are you not much more likely to have a frame from the last 4 years?

I wonder where the bike industry would be if it did it's research in STW though

The point is Mike, it won't be as stiff as a 36 will it. Likely that a pinch bolt setup with wider stanchions and a 20mm bolt through will be stiffer. Really, the main point I was making is that they've actually properly distinguished both products. The Lyrik hardly seems different to a Pike.

Good man, to tell all that from a couple of photos. I think everyone who's in the market for a fork like this knows that Rockshox 35mm is directly competitive with Fox 36mm- it's nothing new, after all, Boxxer and Lyrik have been 35mm forever and nobody with the slightest clue ever said they wanted an extra mm because it'd be stiffer.

Again, point being....it's not a mini-boxxer to most dhers who have 20mm wheels lying around.....because it has a 15mm axle. Boxxer still has 20mm no?

Does it need to be as stiff as the 36? Can you get something stiff enough with that setup? Is there enough of a market for the 36 on stiffness alone? The pinch bolt design on the 36 is a step back for convenience and day to day use.

There seems to be a desire for things to be the mostest in a category when in reality they need to be the most suitable. Anyway as the only thing we have seen is a press release we won't really know. It would be nice to try and do some blind testing on this sort of thing.

Sorry, it's all my own opinion Mike, I just think RS have scored an own goal with this one. Kind of reminds me of SLX vs XT.

Tom_W1987 - Member

The point is Mike, it won't be as stiff as a 36 will it.

The point is, you don't know.

Which does raise a reasoanable point though; there[i] will[/i] be some people who judge it based on a couple of photos, even at the relatively high level it's aimed at. Fair to assume I think that Rockshox just don't think that's a market worth pandering to?

edit

Again, point being....it's not a mini-boxxer to most dhers who have 20mm wheels lying around.....because it has a 15mm axle. Boxxer still has 20mm no?

If you have a decent 20mm Hub you should also have a 15mm one with a quick swap over.

I'm sure RS/SRAM have no idea of the massive potential market they are missing out on.

Well, it'd be great if they did, with a redesigned bridge and 140 grams of extra material. Meanwhile, I'll stick to my opinion that they got their marketing strategy utterly wrong.

I'm sure RS/SRAM have no idea of the massive potential market they are missing out on.

Who do you think is going to buy the Lyrik, your average trail rider who runs a Pike/34? Let's see what the highest voted comment on the pinkbike article has to say, with some 479 upvotes.

You had one job rockshox, just one job, and you done ****** it up. The lyrik should have been a single crown boxxer, not a pike with 20mm extra travel. 20mm axle and a 26" option. Thats all we wanted.

There is clearly a market for a single crown for the Dh/Freeride crowd.

Fair to assume I think that Rockshox just don't think that's a market worth pandering to?

I just think someone in product development got lazy, or they wanted a new product with little R&D effort.

Again, it's all my own opinion guys....I just laughed when I read the article that's all.

The point is Mike, it won't be as stiff as a 36 will it. Likely that a pinch bolt setup with wider stanchions and a 20mm bolt through will be stiffer. Really, the main point I was making is that they've actually properly distinguished both products. The Lyrik hardly seems different to a Pike.

Does it need to be? I can barely tell any difference between my 36 & Pike stiffness wise, and i've swapped between 15 & 20mm axles & again, can barely tell any difference (other than the 15mm hub adapters don't fall out of the hub, unlike the 20mm ones).

Again, point being....it's not a mini-boxxer to most dhers who have 20mm wheels lying around.....because it has a 15mm axle. Boxxer still has 20mm no?

Wait until the new Boxxer comes out.

20mm, dead man walking.

They've been saying that for what now, a decade? And Fox still saw fit to release a 20mm.

Who do you think is going to buy the Lyrik, your average trail rider who runs a Pike/34? Let's see what the highest voted comment on the pinkbike article has to say, with some 479 upvotes.

You had one job rockshox, just one job, and you done ****** it up. The lyrik should have been a single crown boxxer, not a pike with 20mm extra travel. 20mm axle and a 26" option. Thats all we wanted.

There is clearly a market for a single crown for the Dh/Freeride crowd.

What if in a blind test you couldn't tell the difference? What if RS managed to do something that worked and was what people wanted it to feel like but didn't have the right things written on the side. Like all the threads writing bikes off because the measurement/angle isn't what people think it should be, forget riding it or trying it if the numbers are wrong then it's wrong.

No 26" Lyriks? But you can put one on a 29er?

What is wrong with these people?

Who do you think is going to buy the Lyrik, your average trail rider who runs a Pike/34? Let's see what the highest voted comment on the pinkbike article has to say, with some 479 upvotes.

If the industry based every development on what got upvotes on PB then everything really would look like a Trek and cost 10p. Maybe, sometimes, research and development trumps internet opinion.

Let's see what the highest voted comment on the pinkbike article has to say

It's times like this we really need a facepalm smiley on here.

I understand your grumbles, but I can also totally see why RS have gone the way they have with this.

Think about it. How many riders are gonna have a DH bike and a burly enduro bike? And how many are gonna have a shorter travel trail bike plus an enduro bike?

I reckon there will be lot more people looking to share wheels between two 15mm axle forks.

Than and they have reduced the number of lower spes by 50%.