[Closed] Dark side, your real world experience please....

You can have as much fun on a 10 year old bike as a new one.
But it sounds like you've a spending itch so buy a nice discable frame and have fun upgrading with whizzy toys over the next year

Having had 8 road bikes over the years… There's a lot of fluff talked about minute differences. If you're doing certain things you'll get justifiably obsessive about something: time trialling and aero, climbing and weight, distance and comfort. But for the majority I can't believe they're really a big deal.

If you're knocking out 20-60 miles and not competing, you're not realistically going to get any gain at all over a CAAD8 with half decent wheels.

But hey, like I said, I've got through 8 of the things. Having a nicer bike isn't going to make your life much better, but there is of course only one way to establish the truth of that statement 🙂

(FWIW, I find 2.5kg of extra bike weight plus a dynohub costs me 2 minutes over my 30 mile commute route. 1kg alone would, I guess, save you a handful of seconds.)

Discs do rock, though (but they'll eat into that 1kg) - so yeah, do it 🙂

I moved from a caad8 to a carbon frame (Ribble) last year.

Hasn't made a blind bit of difference to my performance.

My thoughts:
- I can definitely feel the difference in ride quality between most carbon frames I've tried and the alloy bikes I've had. Have never ridden a really high quality alloy frame like the CAAD8 though. The stiffness of the frame certainly makes it feel faster, which is far more important than actually being faster.
- Whatever geometry you feel most comfortable at will feel/be faster. The advantage of an aero position is less important than feeling fresh on the bike for longer.
- The newer groupsets are really nice. I have new 105 on the cross bike and new Ultegra on the road bike and I'd go for 105 unless the ultegra deal was REALLY good.

You have a CAAD8 with spacers. That is most definitely "sportive geometry" I'm afraid - the headtube on the CAAD8 is rather long already. The only non-sportive aspect is the 73 degree head angle. The CAAD8 frame is about as good as alloy gets, and with a carbon seatpost and bars, will have all the comfort attributes and stiffness of a decent carbon frame.

For proper improvements, fit some decent really lihweight wheels, Ksyrium Elites or lighter, replace the tyres and tubes with some latex and Schwalbe Ones, lose almost a kilo with other upgrades and trust me, the bike will be more than competitive. You might like to upgrade to 105 11 speed to cope with two extra cogs for the hills of Exmoor. An 11-28 cassette will give a good range with the compact chainset.

Now the disclaimer. Teen1 is currently sat on his Tiagra CAAD8 in the garage. I upgraded the wheels (Ksyriums and carbon deep sections), swapped to a full carbon fork, and some of the groupset to Ultegra and took it racing last year. It is an amazing ride. And this is comparing it with my highest spec Defy Advanced SL and a Giant Propel Advanced. I like the two carbon frames more, but they don't make me (much) faster, and they aren't really a lot more comfortable. I still enjoy ridign the CAAD8 as a winter bike.

That's sort of what I thought bout the spacers/ geometry. Guess it's really do I want discs (& a weight penalty) or a shiny new bike? Sounds like the discs would make the only discernible riding difference over upgrading what I have

I've already got good tyres (vittoria open corsa) a 28 cassette and carbon bars and seat post, maybe I'll look at 105 for now

Let's say that you with your bike weigh 100kg. You save 1kg, that's 1%
That 1% will cost £?
It didn't stop me buying an Ultegra-equipped best bike though 🙂

It is often (correctly) said, that a good Alu frame is better than a bad carbon frame.
A lighter bike does make a difference, but the weight difference needs to be significant to really feel it.
As for changing group sets. I recently needed new shifters, I decided on 11s 105 ... and they are superb. The weight difference of them & ultegra is not a lot, and I can not imagine ultegra performing any better either.
And as for disk brakes on a road bike. Stopping power is mostly decided by the amount of grip you got ... 23/25/28mm tyres don't offer a lot. I can put myself over the bars with the calliper brakes already ... disk just seem over kill.

That said though. Any excuse for a new bike.

For 2.5k you can buy great bikes. It's not a tricky price break amount.

Spur of the moment ideas? Genesis stainless, Campag groupset nice wheels.
Or
Giant TCR best model I could buy.

If you're knocking out 20-60 miles and not competing, you're not realistically going to get any gain at all over a CAAD8 with half decent wheels.

I disagree, you may not get a tangible benefit, but it'll be nicer to ride, and that's just as important.

mrs antigee has always had a better road bike than me - I built up a cx/drop bar hybrid/adventure tourer a few years ago and sold my road bike.

Mrs antigee does pretty much the same training loops with local club every weekend and then the odd challenge event
I enjoy disappearing off down dirt tracks I've spotted along the way or joined up on google maps - sometimes I look at nice shiny road bikes and then remember the money will pay for a couple of nice trips to ride my CX somewhere new

it's a new bike, just do it!

It's hard to justify logically (I've tried on many occasions!), so don't try looking for advantages.

If you want a new bike, get one just because you want one.

It'll feel nice and new (which is a bonus) and will make you ride it more, but it will still do the same job as your current (very nice) bike at the end of the day...

I think you'll be able to feel the difference. I've had a carbon Viner, alu/carbon Allez and Planet X Nanolight before my current Scott Addict R15.
They all were good to ride but the Scott is a different class. Is lighter to ride, climbs well and it feels like every bit of power goes through the wheels. Got a great deal on it through Winstanleys.
Spec was relatively similar to my Planet X but the frame quality feels so much better/more agile.

It's hard to justify logically (I've tried on many occasions!), so don't try looking for advantages.

If you want a new bike, get one just because you want one.

It'll feel nice and new (which is a bonus) and will make you ride it more, but it will still do the same job as your current (very nice) bike at the end of the day.

I've given up trying to justify it bar saying "I ride bikes lots, I can afford it, I want it".

Once you try carbon I don't think anyone would go back to alloy.

It's hard to justify logically (I've tried on many occasions!), so don't try looking for advantages.

It's easy to justify. Everyone surely needs at least two road bikes, a training bike and a best bike (and a race bike too if that's your thing.)

Once you try carbon I don't think anyone would go back to alloy.

I'd prefer a quality alu frame to a budget carbon frame. I think most people that say the above have just gone from a budget alloy bike to a half decent carbon bike and not ridden the best that both have to offer. And FWIW I reckon choice of finishing kit (wheels, post, etc.) makes a bigger difference than whether the frame is made of carbon or alu.

I've got a CAAD4, never owned a carbon bike but ridden a few and while they're nice they're not nice enough to justify the expense.

I bought some 2nd hand drivetrain bits, built some <1300g wheels, and new finishing kit, got it down to the UCI weight limit (not that that's important it was just a target) and it's very nice. If you're happy with the frame, keep it.

If you've currently got SORA I'd get a 2nd hand 7800 groupset off ebay and spend some money on nice saddle, seatpost, bars and stem, it's pretty much what I did.

^^^as earlier above, keep the current bike as is and use it for winter/foul days and buy the one you want. If it's new and shiny and carbon and blingy it will definitely feel faster !. Assuming you can afford it, life's too short 🙂

Once you try carbon I don't think anyone would go back to alloy.

The CAAD8 frame, whilst not having the beautiful filed US-made welds of that CAAD4, does have a nice high front end - only bike I've ever slammed!, good geometry and is the best alloy frame this side of a CAAD10. The Giant Defy Aluxx SL is another fine frame, with very slightly more relaxed geometry (same head tube length), 72.5 degree head angle. The alloy TCR was an excellent bike, but everyone in the UK wants carbon for £1200 these days. IF someone wants a starter race bike, I recommend a CAAD8.

If you really want disks, that's a different discussion.

I agree with the other posts above - the CAAD8 is a good bike

if you really want to make a dent in the weight / feel of the bike, some good tyres (nice vittoria or veloflex corsa) and latex tubes - new chainset ? this would drop some weight and some would say it improves the feel of the transfer of energy from feet to forward momentum (subjective!). I also prefer proper road pedals and shoes on a road bike rather than MTB spds

If your wife's bike is a kilo lighter it won't all be the frame, I'd be surprised if it's more than 3-400 grams, it'll mostly be the groupset/ wheels/ finishing kit that does it, and also the frame size, a large frame is heavier than a small frame..
Just getting a carbon frame and sticking your existing bits on it might end in disappointment from a weight saving viewpoint...

Turns out i'm jealous of the shiny new bike and wonderful bike though the caad8 is, owning a cannondale goes against my love of niche/ smaller (cool) brands in life. i started this thread to find out partly if carbon would really make enough difference in feel to justify the spend.

The weight difference is actually closer to half a kilo at the moment, both small frames.i'm not totally hung up on being a weight weenie, part of it is about upgrade-itus and a lifelong love of tinkering/customising/ dialling things in.

the caad 8 is

sora 9 speed but fsa crankset, both as originally specc'd and with xt 11-28 cassette
original saddle
carbon seatpost and bars from planet x
lightweight planet x stem
shimano rs80 c24 wheels
vittoria open corsa clincher tyres
cheapest shimano road pedals,

it's about 8.6/8.7 kg on my trusty digital luggage scale.

Sounds honestly like the only real reason for a frame change is to make myself feel more excited about the bike - at the moment it's still the £800 starter bike underneath in my eyes.

i should probably look at putting on 105/ultegra in the short term, which i probably will notice some improvements in feel from.

A cheap groupset from Ribble, new 105 for instance which is generally held as being astonishingly good for the money and some new wheels may well scratch the upgrade itch as well as making the bike feel a bit "nicer" as well.

whats the next step up wheel wise?

Put a decent groupset on it 105 or Ultegra and get some lighter wheels, new saddle and new bar tape and bingo, a new bike at a third of the cost 😀

Don't get discs if you want a fast feeling bike as they add a shed load of weight.

I'm on a CAAD5 with decent wheels, and its done me proud on sportifs and "ultra" stuff as well as pootling about.

It is stiff and a bit harsh on longer rides, but carbon seatpost and double tape have solved that.
I'm thinking of a carbon fork?

Which is your question..
Less harsh carbon vs alu
Safety caliper vs disk brakes
need new shiny..

🙂

As someone else who rides Exmoor and the Quantocks (road and offroad) I'd say whatever you get, make sure it has disc's, rim brakes are fine in the summer but it's so much nicer being able to stop when you want on the other 360 days of the year as well. 😀

[i]I moved from a caad8 to a carbon frame (Ribble) last year.

Hasn't made a blind bit of difference to my performance.[/i]

I moved from an Old Principia to Ribble 872. and while i'm not appreciably faster, the ride is nicer, it's a more pleasant place to be, and I don't have bike jealously of my FWB's bike.

It's nice to have nice things

Guess i'm confused/musing and have several issues in play.

1st is how much smoother and more comfortable a carbon frame will be since i know the caad8 is a decent alu frame. This is partly because i do like the look of the new mason bikes which are disc but aluminium

http://road.cc/content/news/143362-first-look-mason-progressive-cycles

Which leads into being tempted by the idea of discs, as i mentioned above and in agreement with Dibs, ive done two 6o milers across exmoor in the last couple of weeks, similar routes, one on a steel cx cable disc bike and one on the caad 8, both on schwalbe duranos. i like descending, i really noticed a difference in control with the discs, i nearly had an "oh shit i'm not going to stop moment" coming into porlock on the calipers.

So i guess it's partly trying to see how much difference the extra weight really makes for speed or tiredness.

thirdly it's wanting a new shiny and trying to justify it

If i'm honest, generally in life i'm drawn to the fringes of things, i'd always rather buy from a smaller cooler brand than a mainstream giant and have something that is less commonly seen - my mtb's are cotic and transition. My mate has a gorgeous purple grape colour condor and theres a real sweet one of these in my LBS that appeals

http://rittecycles.com/carbon/vlaanderen-2013/

the caad8 is cannondale and therefore mainstream and was my "starter" roadbike and doesnt excite me in the same way

1st is how much smoother and more comfortable a carbon frame will be since i know the caad8 is a decent alu frame. This is partly because i do like the look of the new mason bikes which are disc but aluminium

Just because it's made from carbon doesn't mean it's going to be smooth, and conversely just because it's made from aluminium doesn't mean that it won't be smooth (though it is all very subjective.) You need to look at what the bike has been designed for. You can buy smooth mile munchers in carbon, steel or aluminium.

the caad8 [s]is cannondale and therefore mainstream and was my "starter" roadbike and[/s] doesnt excite me in the same way

I think you have answered your own question there...

Ok maybe i should re-phrase. I dont want a super smooth mile muncher since i rarely do massive mileage and i like to feel like i'm going fast when i ride - there's not much smoother than the steel frame i have with bigger tyres if i want to cruise.

What i meant i guess is does carbon offer any real world advantage over a good alu frame like the caad8 is and like that mason almost certainly is. Like i said above, the recieved wisdom is "buy an ally starter bike then upgrade to posher carbon bike" how much difference is that really going to make? it seems not a huge amount over what i have. i guess with a couple of upgrades the caad8 will be a very good bike (its not like i think it isnt already) so maybe it comes down to how much i really want to consider disc bikes (many of which have "sportive" geometry hence my question as to how much difference that makes)

and also how much i'm thinking of this to own something that i feel proud of because its a rarer beast, i guess thats the fundamental driver!

You start off saying you are jealous of her bike as its carbon, and lighter. But then you say you want to add discs and under 2.5k. So do you want the carbon, discs or the weight, you'll not get all.

the jealousy is more about it being a "nicer" bike i guess not specifically the carbon or weight.

Objectively this probably doesnt make much sense which i think is partly down to it being as iainc says above, the caad8 doesnt excite me much!

One advantage of disc brakes is that you don't wear your rims out. With the fashion for factory built wheel sets that effectively saves you having to replace your wheels. RS80 is a pretty good wheelset though, worth keeping if they have been looked after.
I would say the Sora 9 speed groupset is the weak spec on your CAAD 8 and a new 105 or Ultegra would be a nice upgrade.

What i meant i guess is does carbon offer any real world advantage over a good alu frame like the caad8 is and like that mason almost certainly is.

Thing that carbon allows is for the designer to build complex shapes with exact control over how much material goes where. Allows them to build bikes with a ride and weight that would be hard to achieve with alu or steel. A good designer can probably build a bike with a similar feel out of any of those materials but the carbon one is likely to be the lightest. (I'm sure many on here can put it much better than that!)

One advantage of disc brakes is that you don't wear your rims out.

Seriously how often does that happen? You hardly need to brake on a nice road bike.

Discs are going to make a bike feel more sluggish. Fine if you are commuting but for your pukka road bike that you want to feel fast, no thanks.

Viiiile thread.

^^ how will discs make a bike feel more sluggish ?

I disagree, you may not get a tangible benefit, but it'll be nicer to ride, and that's just as important.

Maybe. "Nicer" is massively subjective, of course. I've not ridden a CAAD8 myself but I've had a CAAD5 and a CAAD9 and although I dind't put so many miles on the former (first road bike, bought a size too small, doh) I certainly can't fault the latter: handles quickly and precisely, constantly wants to go faster, yet I've spent over 24 hours on it without discomfort. So, to paraphrase you: It [i]might[/i] be nicer 🙂

my original plan was to upgrade the groupset soon then to buy a suitably niche brand frame later this year and port the bits over.

The advent of discs and my positive experience of using them has sort of confused me. where i live you DEFINATELY need to brake, 20% blind corners on slightly iffy road surfaces are not uncommon

Sluggish as they add a significant portion of rotating weight. Plus they are less aero (albeit that's not such an issue). If you are riding 20% gradients down then at some point you have to come back up, and then the weight matters.

So your missus is happy on calipers and you need discs 😉

i'm in touch with my feminine side!

she tends to be going half the speed to start with downhill...

Braking efficacy isn't the biggest benefit of discs in my book. Never wearing out rims is a pretty compelling one, but my favourite thing about them by far is the fact that the bike doesn't get covered with horrible black brake sludge. Reflective tyre walls keep reflecting, cleaning is easier and barely ever needs doing at all, and you don't get your hands and gloves and clothes turned black with foul pervasive filth when you have to fix a puncture.

A useful trick to play on yourself with a road bike is to buy one that's slightly above your level as a rider, such that you look a bit ATGWNI on it ie: it's a light, fast bike but you're not so fast.
Let your ego take over, feel like an idiot who's overspent and ride it all the time till you can ride fast enough to justify such a nice and expensive bike...

a) you've got a nice bike
b) you're fitter than a butcher's dog - win win 🙂

btw I'm a Condor lover - I have two and they're beautiful bikes to ride. If I needed another bike I'd def be looking at an Acaccio

The calipers that are part of the new 11 speed groups from shimano are a lot better than most others and have made me think far longer about road discs.

Still have the rim wear issues though

Oh and I'm no faster on my early 1980s steel bike than my modern ti best bike

Speed is not the currency. The OP wants convincing buying a new bike is the right thing, he's just fretting over discs or not. Solution? Buy a nice bike with disks and buy a nice conventional road bike with calipers.

There now. DONE! n+ is always the correct answer 🙂

I have 3 road bikes and the biggest difference in ride quality is between the 2 aluminium bikes. My higher end aluminium one is pretty close in ride feel to my Scott carbon.The carbon one does come up lighter though.

Speed is not the currency.

But the OP says...

I want to race my mates or strava times.

Surely beating your mates on Strava is the number 1 priority here and everyone knows a shiny new bike is faster than the one you currently ride 🙂

I'm fretting on everything!

This probably all sounds confused. Speed is kind of the currency, like i said, i'm not going to be entering races but i'm a competitive sort of person.

if i'm out on a road bike i want to feel like i'm going fast, i want to try and keep up with my very fit roadie mates and kick the asses of my less fit mates, i want to feel like i'm getting fitter which in the context of only being able to go for fairly short rides a lot of the time, means going faster. I dont ride my road bike to cruise and smell the flowers so i'm not after comfort at the expense of speed i already have. I like climbing hills, i like coming down them fast.

i know that what i would ideally want is something carbon, di2, racey and with discs but, there arent many bikes like that around and they are all going to be over budget so where do i make the compromise?

Is it staying with alu instead of carbon maybe with discs, is it decent calipers from a better groupset and carbon, is weight important, is it really just that i want a bike that i think is "cooler" (probably!) and that there isnt really a huge measurable performance benefit to changing anything?

For the record i'm 5'6 and 60kg so i'm not big and i'm not that slow

[i]"if i'm out on a road bike i want to feel like i'm going fast"[/i]

Pedal harder?

Half-facetious, half serious. One slightly odd example: if you've currently got a compact, for some unknown reason I find a 52-53 big ring makes a road bike sing where a 48-50 doesn't. Might be purely psychological, but a standard just seems to be happier a little faster. YMMV.

I'm sure you know this but the only things you can work on that'll really make you go faster are position/aero, power and your weight. New bike is marginal.

is it really just that i want a bike that i think is "cooler" (probably!) and that there isnt really a huge measurable performance benefit to changing anything?

Yes.

Well,I fell for the red light sabres and some of their capes were 'well cool' ,but once I heard what they had done to all those young Jedi,I was sickened.
That was my last day with the dark side.

In answer to your question, I would go carbon and Di2 above discs. If you are 60kg, the real braking advantage of discs will be modulation rather than power. Rose bikes are doing some good deals.

Modern calipers have more than enough power. The weight difference of discs v non discs on a small frame (assuming you ride a small frame at 5'6'') is greater proportionally than on a larger frame given that the kit is the same and the mods to strengthen the frame to take calipers will be about the same.

If you want to go faster I would say 'pedal faster' rather than 'pedal harder'

You hardly need to brake on a nice road bike.

Not ridden Exmoor much then. 😯

2.5k max

i know that what i would ideally want is something carbon, di2, racey and with discs

OK, it's a bit mainstream but perhaps:

[url= http://www.specialized.com/gb/gb/bikes/road/roubaix/roubaix-sl4-comp-disc ]Baaaa[/url]

Or drop the Di2 and stretch your budget a little for the 105/Hydro build of one of those Masons you like:

Hmm, link doesn't look right on the preview, so copy and past this into your browser:

http://us9.campaign-archive1.com/?u=e86461b63dea84030f145a4db&id=7a337087d7

By the time you wear a rim brake wheel out (3yrs av with wet riding) you are looking for a valid reason/excuse for better/faster wheels anyways.

Who said it's 3 years to wear a rim brake out? Surely that'll depend on how much you ride... 😕

Rims on winter bike lasted 3 yrs.
I prob do a bit more miles than your average STW-ers though.

Haven't read the whole thread but what is your budget OP? Because this looks incredible VFM, ticks all the boxes. My brother is about to order one, git.

http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/bike/rose-xeon-cdx-3100-di2/aid:756129?bikevariantchanged=756153