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If you were to pick a frameset for full on road and criterium racing, what would you pick?
Criteria:
Needs to be stiff, both to transfer the max amount of effort into forward motion, especially in the sprint and to track accurately round fast corners.
Comfort; not an issue in crits, of some importance in road races, but pretty low down on my priorities.
Weight/aero: Low weight has got to be nice and aero is meant to be important, however compared to the rider I think the bike has little influence. It'd be used with shallow (but light) rims.
Geometry: I current race with a saddle to bar top drop of 120mm and usually ride in the drops at 250mm drop during the race.
Cost: doesn't need to be Di2 or the latest model. It'll likely be crashed so cheaper is better!
Come on, give us a budget?
If I was doing something similar I'd be having a look at a crash friendly priced [url= http://bowman-cycles.com/palace/ ]Bowman Palace[/url].
It's depends if you want a "best bike" for racing. For crits I'd want something stiff and crashable, arguably the same applies for road races. Ideally, it's be an old Scott Foil.
How about this from Merlin though if you're really not concerned about the frame brand?
http://www.merlincycles.com/merlin-evolution-carbon-frame-forks-61250.html
For crits something like the Kinesis Racelight Aithein?
Bowman Palace
[url= http://www.dengfubikes.com/product/detail.php?id=187 ]Aero[/url], [url= http://www.dengfubikes.com/product/detail.php?id=190 ]lightweight[/url]. Not gonna shed a tear if it goes down the road.
That Merlin looks a good deal.
Njee, value your opinion, would you go for aero or light? I prefer the light. Is it simple to buy from this company?
Carbon a must. Have got an alloy frame already (Giant Defy) that does a good job but gets a bit squirmy sometimes.
Budget £500 would be great, second hand fine (size 54cm) if anyone has something.
I've said it before, I'll say it again - [url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/Components-Parts-Flyxii-Cycling/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=n%3A550017011%2Cp_6%3AA3C2847C58QJXF ]Flyxii products are available through Amazon[/url], and good value too. Doesn't get much easier to buy than that...
the bike has little influence.
This.
How much do the dengfus work out at?
Carbon a must. Have got an alloy frame already (Giant Defy) that does a good job but gets a bit squirmy sometimes.
Not really anything to do with it being alloy, it's just not designed for that. I'd not discount aluminium frames based on that single experience.
Budget £500 would be great, second hand fine (size 54cm) if anyone has something.
TCR or similar frame from the classifieds?
would you go for aero or light?
No weight for the aero but I doubt it's huge. All else being equal I'd go aero if there was a gain to be had, but there is no data on the actual aero benefit (just because a frame looks aero doesn't mean it is aero.)
Giant Propel. Well that's what I have. Aero does make a difference, which is why I race in a skinsuit and an aero helmet to go with aero wheels and frame. The Pro is acceptably light. Mine is 7.5 kilos with Ultegra.
Alloy option: CAAD10.
Second hand option: Giant TCR Advanced or Advanced SL.
It will get crashed and scratched so don't be too precious. It probably won't break in a crash.
I've raced my Defy SL in circuit races. The geometry is fine for racing. It may be other aspects like wheels that are not stiff enough. I am precious so save the Defy for the odd long road race over bad surfaces and when I lend out the Propel.
Propel is a good call. If I was going to go aero I think I'd pay the money and get something that had data to back up the aero claims so that I knew it actually provided real benefit for the extra weight. Weight I can measure myself with the kitchen scales, aero is trickier.
Also, as TiRed says, aero wheels, one of the new aero road helmets and skinsuit as there's little point bothering about marginal gains from a frame if you're not doing the basics already.
Wow, didn't know Amazon could be used for China carbon goodness, ooh boy interesting, £330 posted to Sweden for 50mm deep wheels coming in at 1500gm with Campy freewheel. 😛
For a crit specific frame I wouldn't buy anything fancy, just a good solid alloy or carbon frame, you WILL be on your arse at some point if you race a lot.
I remember seeing a guy turn up on his brand new 2.5K spesh frame and him walking back up the finish straight after a first lap touch of wheels with nothing holding it together than the cables......
I turn up at races and see all the bike bling and yes of course I want something super-duper with aero and carbon wheels etc, however I don't want to spend all that money on the full package.
I do ok on my alloy Defy with Mavic xsyrium wheels, but where I do perceive a differnce is when winding up the final sprint (and sprinting out of the corners) where frame flex is discernable compared to riding a stiffer frame. Also on my Defy I'm perched right on the front of the saddle with a 120mm minus 17 degree stem to get my body down to where I want it.
There's a photo here but too much of a luditie to work out how to get it to appear.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/irl2010/16419444481/in/set-72157650185018788
Dont overlook the CAAD10 just because its alloy, i'd pick that over most cheaper carbon frames for crit racing.
I do ok on my alloy Defy with Mavic xsyrium wheels, but where I do perceive a differnce is when winding up the final sprint (and sprinting out of the corners) where frame flex is discernable compared to riding a stiffer frame. Also on my Defy I'm perched right on the front of the saddle with a 120mm minus 17 degree stem to get my body down to where I want it.
You are kidding yourself, the flex in a frame will not improve your positions in the sprint....
But if you want to spend cash on a stiffer frame, go for it, just buy a carbon TCR, you don't have to justify it to us.
Both my alloy TCR and Aithein feel stiffer than any carbon I've ridden.
Would suggest either of those or the palace. A carbon frame of equal quality or measurably better is going to cost a lot more than 500 quid or so for these options
Worth looking at that bikeradar test on aero, savings are relatively low, and are measured at 25mph And NOT in a group.
Id also look for evidence that an aero-looking frame is actually aero - most def not one and the same.
CAAD10 is a great frame.
This discussion is throwing up some interesting responses. I won't discount alloy now, the Caad10 for example has a lot of heritage.
Perhaps I'm worrying about it too much, but I do know switching from my cheap wheels to my Mavics makes me feel more in control during cornering and sprinting and that I'm often perched on the front of my saddle with it being as far forward on the rails as possible.
Based on that picture, you need a longer bike. Arms are at about 170 to the vertical. I'd go for a TCR frame for your money. Stiff, light and a little longer (about 1.5 cm) than the Defy. You can then use your 120 mm stem.
My defy also has a 120 mm stem and my Propel a 110-115, but I'm more flexible now than I used to be.
Or a nice CAAD10....
Perhaps I'm worrying about it too much, but I do know switching from my cheap wheels to my Mavics makes me feel more in control during cornering and sprinting and that I'm often perched on the front of my saddle with it being as far forward on the rails as possible.
That's quite a normal position when you are pedalling hard in the saddle, on the rivet, nothing to worry about.
Tragically1969. I appreciate your opinion. Do you have a lot of experience in racing? If I could just carry on with what I've got without feeling it was too outclassed then that'd be just fine with me.
FYI I'm only a 3rd cat but do tend to race in 2/3 races as have freinds in them.
Tragically1969. I appreciate your opinion. Do you have a lot of experience in racing?
A bit, I raced as a second cat for 3 or 4 years a long time ago in the dark and distant past.
A decent bike does make a difference, but crits are so short and brutal and usually in a group that an aero frame is a waste of time, you just need something that fits, as above if you like the geometry and feel of the Giant then a TCR is the way to go, lots of offers on last years stuff.
Something you don't mind dropping. I raced on a TCR Adv sl and was petrified of crashing it as it cost every penny I had.in those 50/50 situations you get in crit (especially lower cat)I I'd back off especially in the last lap scrimmage and get nowhere despite having the legs. Bought a px rt57 for£300 whilst waiting for my new Canondale evo to arrive and suddenly no gap was too small and every corner was flat out and pedal scraping on the floor. Suddenly I was in the right place with less effort and got results (including at a closed town centre crit!). Cancelled the evo!
Caad10,willbe be ideal.
^^^ that's why I'd be looking at the Bowman or the Aithein.
At the moment I have no fear for the bike (have lost a bit of skin but the memories have faded!). Definitely won't be spending mega bucks.
That Bowman looks cool.
How tall are you / what size frame do you want as my mate is on about selling his CAAD10
5'10". Currently riding a 54cm top tube, but maybe a 56cm would also suit. I'm not sure.
That Bowman looks cool.
I'd have one...
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They ride nice too, I would have one in an instant if I had the room and a the need for a sorted race/do it all bike.
Got my eye on the cross bike.
MrSmith, seen the photos of their CX bike on their Facebook? Rather fancy one myself if they can get them out for August.
5'10". Currently riding a 54cm top tube
Medium TCR would be ideal. A 54 CAAD8/10 with longer stem would give the same fit.
Nothing wrong with your Defy, and it isn't "outclassed" if you are finishing in the top third of 2/3 races. But the handling of a TCR will be a "little" faster.
A used Medium TCR Advanced frame and forks, that you don't mind throwing down the road, would be my first choice for carbon. CAAD10 for alloy. A lot of CAAD10's being raced in Surrey League locally.
EDIT: All the frame you could ever need to race on (not mine)
MrSmith, seen the photos of their CX bike on their Facebook? Rather fancy one myself if they can get them out for August.
Already fondled the goods.
(Disclaimer: I know Bowman people)