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as the title says, its been on iPlayer already, but not seen it on terrestrial
They really should stop paying him for interviews.
what would the andreu's do if they did?
Am I. Missing something with Armstrong?
He is one of a large number of drug cheats, who has fully admitted his part , he has lost millions, been ostracised from his charity foundation,and his home town seem to hate him.
And still people don't seem to be able to forgive him
Because this is the age of the internet, where it is seen as weakness to forgive and forget.
He has shown little remorse, which will be part of it but, IMO, if you weren't involved in cycling directly at that time then you really aren't qualified to judge, considering how endemic it was at the time. He just wanted to be the best at something, in a scene dominated by dopers.
You really can't see the difference? And his sociopathic behaviour, and the fact that he still can't really admit that he did any wrong, or the real reason for setting up the money raiser, or his destruction of people's careers?
You really can't see the difference? And his sociopathic behaviour, and the fact that he still can't really admit that he did any wrong, or the real reason for setting up the money raiser, or his destruction of people's careers?
THIS.
If you can't grasp the scale of his deception & the depths he would sink to so he could continue to lie, cheat & deceive his way to success then you're a bit lost. IMHO.
easygirl....And still people don't seem to be able to forgive him
And these "people" have no direct experience or knowledge of what actually happened, and no personal reason to bear any grudge - oh except maybe the poor naive little things feel "betrayed" by a sportsperson whose competitive nature spilled over into real life a little too far......
He is one of a large number of drug cheats
Yes, indeed. However, he went well beyond just doping. His actions as he does admit (though IMO only because he thinks it's what people want to hear) his behaviour itself was in many ways the bigger issue.
who has fully admitted his part
Sort of. He's admitted to the actual doping but blamed it on the usual 'everyone was doing it' and refused to really accept that it went beyond that or that there actually were clean riders who were affected.
he has lost millions
He has. He also still has millions. He is a long way from being poor and likely always will be. He's done very well from doping. Or as someone else said, he's stolen his money from those who actually deserved it.
been ostracised from his charity foundation,and his home town seem to hate him.
Yeah, that probably hurt but in the US he's far from as unpopular as you suggest. There's also a good chance that if he's successful in his PR war, he'll be back on board in due time. He's certainly not hated by his home town, due in a large part to people being willing to listen to Lance's soundbites without questioning them and of course this is what Lance did through his whole career.
Basically if Lance's actions truly tied in with what he said ([url= http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/01/andreu-armstrongs-lawyers-have-subpoenaed-frankie-his-apologies-mean-nothing/ ]for example[/url] or [url= http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hincapie-claims-theres-more-to-andreus-doping-past ]here[/url] where they made a point of choosing a radio station where the Andrieus live to air this 'story'), then (most) people would IMO forgive. Until then...
Its his deplorable behavior to other people that rankles people.
If we as a community accept the whole doping era, and it seems we do when we look at, for example, Pantani, Ullrich, Veronique, the UCI (eulogised, face of Rapha, EuroSport commentry, still in charge), then Armstrong, simply because he did more effectively has to accepted as well.
However the personal tirades and destruction caused by his actions is another thing all together, and to most not forgivable.
easygirl - MemberAm I. Missing something with Armstrong?
He is one of a large number of drug cheats, who has fully admitted his part , he has lost millions, been ostracised from his charity foundation,and his home town seem to hate him.
And still people don't seem to be able to forgive him
Yes, you're missing the fact that it's [i]Lance[/i] that wants to be back in the public eye and back competing.
If he just quietly went away with his remaining multi-millions it wouldn't be so bad.
That and the fact that when he was on the ropes, he came out dirtier than ever, with hate campaigns against the USADA prosecutors, threats and, because everyone already knew the truth at that point and were watching closely, he made his personality very very clear to everyone.
Its time to move on. So many other people have doped and been allowed to come back. Yes, he was deceitful but then so were so many other people as they had to be to succeed. EVERYONE was doing it at the time and most people had been for years, he was just better and wanted it more. There have been numerous single minded people that would do anything to win, Senna would crash into people at 170mph if he thought they would get out of the corner first putting their lives in his hands many times. Some people will do anything to win. I'm not saying its right, but cycling has to move on otherwise people like Wiggins and Froome will be answering questions forever
However the personal tirades and destruction caused by his actions is another thing all together, and to most not forgivable
Yep, in a nutshell for me. He's a thoroughly deplorable man and, if Nemesis' link is correct & I've understood it correctly, showing no real signs of contrition.
Am I. Missing something with Armstrong?
Yes. Read the background material. It's unambiguous.
EVERYONE was doing it at the time and most people had been for years
This is what Lance wants you to believe and exactly my point about why Lance remains fairly popular in the US - people take what he says as true because it's not challenged enough. It's not true.
In addition, Lance's behaviour meant that it was even harder for those riding clean to do so.
Christophe Bassons is a great example of the above. Cadel Evans also seems to be. There are also countless other cyclists who refused to dope who would have had pro careers but didn't.
I and most others will 'move on' when Lance either goes quiet or his behaviour matches his words.
Didn't the guy get cancer or something and fought back from that as well? Were drugs involved there I wonder.
Surely if he hadn't been there, the next in line would have won, and of course he/she would have been totally clean wouldn't they? Er no don't think so.
They're roadies it's what they do/did, not like the rest of us, who even cares, I don't see folk getting all 'Trek - bike of cheats' they've done pretty well out of it.
It's done imv his only crime he did it better than everyone else at the time and won stuff.
Maybe in his way he was part and parcel of the clean up, could be argued he played a part in that in a kind of ****ed up way.
And this is why Lance will probably do very well. People are too gullible and will believe what he puts out there without questioning it.
Many reckon he's working to get into politics and clean up his image and that's what all this is about. It wouldn't surprise me if he succeeds giving some of the posts above.
The guy was a lying cheating bully. He should not compete again, should be ignored by the media and everyone else.
At least he's not crying crocodile tears though, as others have done. He said what he did and why he did it. In that context, his appalling treatment of all the others is understandable, even if it is still abhorrent.
Everyone needs to draw a line and move on. We need to focus on any current dopers in all sports, not get distracted by his old twaddle.
Lots of people dope in pro sport. Not all are total sociopaths. Not all control such influence and power over the testing of the doping, the organisation of the sporting body, go to extreme lengths to destroy entire lives let alone livelihoods. This is where the differentiation lies. Doping in sport is part and parcel of "the game" but it is the human being apparently devoid of any morals or conscience that he can't escape from. Ricco is a probably as extreme a doper with some pretty serious problems as there has been in recent years but I'd far sooner join him for a ride than Lance!
I've no interest in Lance, what I want him to apologise for is not his actions around the taking of banned drugs, but the deliberate destruction of careers and reputations of the people who dared challenge him. The list of cyclists, writers, ex-pros, team members, press, who were threatened and silenced by litigation is endless, and for that reason he should be held as an example.
The deliberate destruction of careers is pretty much the raison d'etre of professional sportspeople. If you're Djokovic you want to beat Murray again and again until he gives up and goes away. If you're aiming for the cut in a golf tour qualifier you want to make sure you make it and the other guy doesn't. Running for that third place in the Olympic team or development squad.
Cyclists will do and take whatever it takes to ride off the front or drop the leader's team mate out the back. Every sport, every match up is meant to be a competition. Winners and losers, how it's meant to be, it's not a weaver's co-operative. It's up to the folk running the competition to stop the cheating, if they want to.
[i]The deliberate destruction of careers is pretty much the raison d'etre of professional sportspeople[/i]
No it isn't. That's a silly thing to say.
Just a couple of examples; the suggestion that Greg Lemond both took banned substances and was a alcoholic was/is inexcusable, and driving Christophe Bassons from the sport, these have nothing to do with beating your opponent in your chosen sport.
The deliberate destruction of careers is pretty much the raison d'etre of professional sportspeople
On the playing field maybe, however if you understand the backstory then I'm not sure you'd have posted that.
nickc - MemberNo it isn't. That's a silly thing to say.
guess you don't really follow professional sports much then - the "mental game" of disparaging, ridiculing and undermining an opponent is all part of the package.
The "list of people Lance detroyed" what, that'd be about a couple of dozen or so then, hardly a genocidal maniac, just an overdriven competitor who was given the crooked tools to get his job done.
The deliberate destruction of careers is pretty much the raison d'etre of professional sportspeople. If you're Djokovic you want to beat Murray again and again until he gives up and goes away. If you're aiming for the cut in a golf tour qualifier you want to make sure you make it and the other guy doesn't. Running for that third place in the Olympic team or development squad.
No its not, Armstrong has been one of the prime examples of the recent notion that you have to be a complete **** to be a winner, but it's just not true. There have been many great champions that are also great people, being focused on becoming the best you can be is very very different to setting out to destroy your opposition by any means possible.
The worrying thing now is that many sports programs seem to think they need to now teach the young that they should be complete selfish ****s in order to progress. When the likes of Armstrong are held up as models of success, the impact can go far beyond the immediate victims of his actions.
Who?
never mind whining about top gear, ^this is a dispicable waste of my license fee.
The list of cyclists, writers, ex-pros, team members, press, who were threatened and silenced by litigation is endless, and for that reason he should be held as an example
this.
hilldogger - given the crooked tools to get his job done
not quite how it went down, tho was it.
MSP - Member
.....There have been many great champions that are also great people...
list?
The thing is the more rabid the attacks on Lance, the more sympathy he'll get. Even taking into account his ruthlessness he has been treated more harshly than any of the other dopers. He's out of pro cycling end of ! no coming back there. But saying a middle aged man can't run a marathon or a triathlon, mtb event or whatever is ridiculously vindictive 🙁 He's not a murderer or rapist ( even they could compete having served their time )
[i]guess you don't really follow professional sports much then - the "mental game" of disparaging, ridiculing and undermining an opponent is all part of the package.[/i]
For people looking to excuse the behavior of LA I guess you have to rationalize it like this. For the rest of us normal people; no it isn't.
soobalias - Membernot quite how it went down, tho was it.
Wasn't it ?
So where did the drugs first come come from and who gave the initial encouragenment to a young LA to "get on the gear"
nickc - Member......I guess you have to rationalize it like this. For the rest of us normal people; no it isn't.
well the world of "pro sport" is hardly full of "normal people" - and I'm not excusing just thinking outside the hate storm a little
The longer interview on iplayer is better, had it on while working after seeing the one last night. Looks like a broken man.
Regardless of past behaviour i like his candidness on it, better than being a schmultzy gushing born again type or an nasty pos that be used to appear as.
[i]well the world of "pro sport" is hardly full of "normal people" [/i]
but who mostly aren't raging sociopaths as it happens.
well the world of "pro sport" is hardly full of "normal people" - and I'm not excusing just thinking outside the hate storm a little
No, it's not but there's a big difference between 'normal people' and full on nutters. I happen to know a few olympic gold medalists. Hard as when directly competing but fairly well balanced when not. It's a myth that you have to be nasty to be successful.
What has the serial liar said this time?
It would be a better world [ and sport] if we all just turned our back to him and ignored him.
Ignoring the lies he treated some people terribly
I happen to know a few olympic gold medalists. Hard as when directly competing but fairly well balanced when not
I'm sure they are, but I would guess their sport is not quite the hotbed of commercial interests that the pro cycling tour is
I know a few cyclists (both Pro Tour and Triathletes) who are "quite good", whilst they may have some of their own personal issues I'm not aware that in any way that they've displayed the particular tendencies of LALA.
Quite definitely hilldodger but the point really is that it's a myth that you have to be nasty to be successful.
Or to put it another way, Jan Ullrich, Big Mig and many others who were successful and doped, didn't behave in the way Lance did. And FWIW, much as I dislike him, neither has beef-eater Contador and he's won a fair bit.
Anything new here or is it just Lance whinging about how it's all soooo unfair that they won't let him race his bike now? I really don't know if I can be bothered anymore.
Hes not the first and won't be the last sportsman to manipulate people: Sir Alex Ferguson was famous for it, including bullying and intimidating referees and yet he is lorded and honoured throughout the sporting community.
candidness
Pull the other one 😆
lauded 😉
Anyway, I would suggest that old bacon face is far from universally liked or admired...
I'd go with that - I'd love to see him get his titles back because the internet would probably explode! 😉
Or to put it another way, Jan Ullrich, Big Mig and many others who were successful and doped, didn't behave in the way Lance did. And FWIW, much as I dislike him, neither has beef-eater Contador and he's won a fair bit.
They did; they all lied, cheated, propogated the [i]omerta[/i], they all had doctors, team managers etc aiding and abetting them, those doctors/TMs were all bullying and coercing riders, cutting people off if they refused to toe the line.
Only difference is that none of them were multi-million pound, cancer-surviving, all-American heroes. Like it or not, the Tour needed Lance, Lance needed the Tour and everyone bought into it.
I for one can't stand SAF. He may have been successful but he came across as being thoroughly dislikeable!
They did but I would suggest that they didn't directly have the effect that LA did. You're right of course that the doctors and team managers had a major part to play but for me that's really where most of the blame lies rather than with the majority of riders themselves - not to excuse them but IMO they weren't the ones with the power. To that point, I'd happily see Riis, Vino and probably more to the point, the doctors and team managers of the time banned from team management.
Lance was an exception to that. He clearly had significant influence in a way that most riders didn't. That's why he deserves his lifetime ban.
AlexSimon - Member
Yes, you're missing the fact that it's Lance that wants to be back in the public eye and back competing.
If he just quietly went away with his remaining multi-millions it wouldn't be so bad.That and the fact that when he was on the ropes, he came out dirtier than ever, with hate campaigns against the USADA prosecutors, threats and, because everyone already knew the truth at that point and were watching closely, he made his personality very very clear to everyone.
I see it the same way. He was the figurehead of that whole scene and ruthlessly lied and bullied people so deserves to be hung out to dry.
He is the one seeking to get back in the public eye so is opening himself to scrutiny.
The only way he would regain any credibility in my eyes would be to come clean and tell all like Tyler Hamilton, but even so I wouldn't want to see him hosting TV coverage like other ex-pros.