[Closed] Cyclists vs people who ride bikes

It's not cool to ride a tourer??

Busted!!

I found it particularly interesting in light of some of the stuff on here, where people say they literally can't cycle 5 miles down a flat road without wearing their special padded shorts etc. It seems some people really want to identify themselves as cyclists, rather than just use the bike as a convenient mode of transport

The Germans seemed to have a much healthier and more sensible attitude to [s]cycling[/s][b] most things[/b] than we do.

I tuck my jeans in my sock or use a shoe lace or old climbing sling to stop it getting caught, and ride an old rigid mtb for commuting and shopping.

I dunno what that says about me. I've noticed more cyclists around Sheffield and drivers seeming to be more courteous which is nice.

I wear a helmet because I can make mistakes and because the ground is damn hard, and walls and cars are.

No-one wears a helmet

The death toll must be [i][b]horrendous[/b][/i].
Won't somone think of the children...

I've found it a bit depressing coming back to the UK after being in Germany, Holland or Denmark. The Euros are so far ahead of us in bike use, infrastructure, attitudes toward transport in general.. among other things.

I have a 'town' bike and ride it in normal clothes, no lid or SPDs. I like it, it feels normal to me. I don't drive so I use my bike as many would use a car locally - popping into town as needed in normal clothes. I wouldn't clip in or wear bike gear for round trips under 10 miles or so. For those trips I'm just a bloke on a bike.

Cycling needs to be seen as normal transport in the UK to progress to European levels, it's not just something for 'cyclists'. Labels make us easier to compartmentalise, disregard, be turned against etc. A bloke on a bike is a cyclist, but related-to more easily by most non-riders.

My dutch nephew asked me where all the normal cyclists were in edinburgh

Same situation here in Geneva - bikes are perfectly normal means of transport to thousands of people. Great routes, separate from traffic, good parking. It's normal to ride a bike as transport because it's safe, simple, relatively flat. I'd say a very small % of the cyclists I see daily would ride bikes as a recreational activity - it's just transport. They would think it odd to even consider a 'cycling culture' - it would be like suggesting a hoovering culture.

i do 100% of my riding in normal clothes, never worn lycra or cycling shirts.
baggy shorts and a tee shirt in summer, walking pants and a fleece in the winter.
dont wear a helmet unless going offroad...............shit, i even ride a german bike..... 🙁

GW - you cycle for pleasure though, I'm really talking about cycling for shopping/commuting etc

Cycling needs to be seen as normal transport in the UK to progress to European levels, it's not just something for 'cyclists'. Labels make us easier to compartmentalise, disregard, be turned against etc. A bloke on a bike is a cyclist, but related-to more easily by most non-riders.

Yeah this is what I was getting at really. I just think the idea that cycling is a special interest activity 'for cyclists' only, requiring special clothes etc is really unhelpful and off-putting. I was also just very struck by how 'fit for purpose' almost all of the bikes were.

Grum - I think GW actually uses his bike as transport as well

I use a bike daily as transport and wear normal clothes and no helmet

Hmm, I only ever ride a full sus bike, with spds and always wear a lid. I pretty much always wear cycling specific clothes and a camel back. Does that make me sad / insecure?
Or does it mean I actually only have one bike, only ever go out for a decent length ride and find cycling kit warmer / cooler / waterproof to allow me to get out in comfort what ever the weather....
Could well be....

I would in fairness commute on a fully mud guarded, shopping bike if I didn't work 45 miles away so I take my Audi instead. Am I stereotypical enough yet? Go on, hate me.

I do however still agree with the op!

It is strange how we are different from the continentals. It's ~2 miles to town from home, far quicker and convenient to amble down on my hub-geared commuter bike in my everyday clobber - but I do pop a lid on.

But for XC or longer road riding, suitable clothing just feels better - jeans and cotton tees feel nasty when properly exercising IMO.

I ride a road bike every day, my commute is less than 4 miles, but it is SO much more fun than on a shopper/ town bike.
why should we select a bike to use based on the fact that we don't need a better one? I like to ride as fast as I can no matter where I'm riding because that is FUN!
do the Germans have as much fun as me on their functional, efficient commute?

yup, here in munich there are bikes galore! even more so in summer. it's nice. i like it.

my commute to the workshop is 11km. all but 2km is on bike paths that are separate from the road, and this is out of town. in town each road has a bike path, most of them being separate from the road. i niether wear lycra or a helmet. oh, and i ride my DB Alpine as my fixie is still broken.

back home our household (me, my folks and sister) had four cars. the GF's family is spread over three households and consists of seven people and it is only the GF's dad that has one. and he is the only one who drives it.

the GF's mum, brother-in-law and myself all commute between 2km-11km by bike.

you still have your cyclists with their lycra, but they are few and far between...

The most fun I ever had commuting by bike was on my mother's 1940s BSA with Mahoosive wheels and a wicker basket - didn't even own a helmet back then, let alone lycra!

But then, 80% of the commute was on an old railway track, in Aberdeen, so I felt as safe as could be. I flat refuse to commute by bike here in NE England because I appear to be invisible to one in ten drivers.

I'll have the odd bimble into town on a fully rigid Kona, dressed in clothes which don't scream "CYCLIST", but as above ^^^ will always get the padded shorts and helmet out for fun rides.

Lived in Germany, rode a bike everywhere. Places I lived had proper facilities for bikes (somewhere to lock your bike to). Drivers all knew what to look out for. When I moved back to the UK tried cycling instead of driving - suicidal move that. There isn't enough awareness of cyclists (at least not in the frozen north east of Schottland). Perhaps you need "all the gear" here in the UK as you're constantly faced with imminent buckled wheels.

That all said, there are pockets of the UK which seem (to an outsider) to be much more 'bike-aware'. York is a prime example. The drivers in the city just amble along at bike pace, knowing that even if they did overtake, they'd be stuck again 50 metres up the road.

I was also hugely impressed that even the 12 year old BMXers with their pants hanging out of their jeans all had a set of lights. Critical mass is where it's at - acceptance is necessary.

jameso - Member

I've found it a bit depressing coming back to the UK after being in Germany, Holland or Denmark.
Cycling needs to be seen as normal transport in the UK

That is the crux of the matter

I ride a 10 mile round trip as part of my commute and i do it on a road bike (because it's what i had available that was cheap). I also wear all the proper gear, not because i think it makes me any better but because ITS FREEZING AND WET most mornings at 6:00am! Keeps me warm and means i'm not dirty at work.

Oh and i wear a helmet because its safer than not.

Simple stuff really.

The only special gear I wear are shades, SPD's, and gloves.. I don't wear a helmet and I don't need padded shorts because I choose decent perineum cut out pelvic bone design seats e.g. Terry Liberator, SMP Trk, Spesh Sonoma, and BG...

I wear normal clothes and business attire (under a fleece usually), but I use velcro too keep trousers out of crank..

As for fit for purpose, my mmmbop is fit for commuting. I cycle on the roads in, and take the woodland track back. Close packed fast 2.3 tyre on rear, knobbly 2.3 on front.. kept the 44 outer for little bursts of flat.. I wouldn't want to commute on a Euro shopper like described. I would however appreciate if Brits could be as pleasant as the Europeans.

My town, Reading, is too dangerous to cycle at peak rush hour 7.30-9 and 5-7. Unless you have a deathwish so the mtb enables me to hop between pavement and road as desired/needed..

I just think the idea that cycling is a special interest activity 'for cyclists' only, requiring special clothes etc is really unhelpful and off-putting.

Look at where you'd buy a bike from in the UK as a new rider - it's a generalisation but probably Halfords or an IBD where most of the staff are 'cyclists' and keen to work wth specialist kit. There's more 'normal bike' shops these days though, Cycle Heaven in York or some of the newer shops like Bobbins + Velorution in London spring to mind as great bike shops for people who just want a bike for practical use. It'd be good to see more of that in the future.

I ride a road bike every day, my commute is less than 4 miles, but it is SO much more fun than on a shopper/ town bike.
why should we select a bike to use based on the fact that we don't need a better one? I like to ride as fast as I can no matter where I'm riding because that is FUN!

This, pretty much. Even on the Brompton I wear bike kit (almost especially so - it's harder work, therefore I get sweatier, therefore appropriate clothing is more important).

But then my definition of "street clothing" is merino baselayer, baggy shorts with lycra underneath, kneewarmers, and dependant on the bike spds or trainers. If I've got a business meeting to go to, I'll wear the zipoffs and put my legs back on before going in.

I guess my philosophy is thet the point of "making a journey" is to get to the destination as fast as possible. The journey itself is just wasted time. So use the fastest form of transport possible. For commuting it's bike, but I'll do what I need in turn to make it as fast and as fun as possible. Anyway it's better than going to the damn gym!

No-one wears a helmet
- Everyone just wears normal clothes, no specialist cycling gear/lycra etc
- Pretty much every single pavement has a cycle lane

first two are because of the third, WWII destroyed a lot of the bigger cities so they were rebuilt in a modern style, most of our towns are still based on medieval planning and thus cycle paths are squeezed in the avaliable space

if we had the cycle paths i'd wear normal clothes and go helmetless here, but because most of the cycle lanes here weave in and out of the traffic i'll stick with trying to be seen and wear a lid

Isn't this just about people who cycle for transport and people who cycle for sport?

RD - not in the netherlands - cycle lanes and bike priority exist even in the medieval towns.

people don't wear helmets because there is seen to be no need given the very low incidence of head injury. Cycling is just a normal everyday activity

BTW this thread wasn't meant to be about slagging off people who wear bike specific clothes (but hey this is STW!), I have a bike jacket with loads of reflective stuff on for riding at night. I can see the argument that they don't 'need' helmets and cycling clothes so much because it's safer to cycle, but as above we would be safer here if more people cycled - bit of a catch 22.

I do wonder how many people might be put off cycling as transport by the idea that you either buy a heavy and crap full suspension BSO, or an expensive and uncomfortable/impractical race bike and special expensive clothing to get to work/do your shopping.

Its a safer but not that much in these countries - its still a very safe pursuit in the UK.

Unfortunately the attitude that "cycling is dangerous and you need special kit" is adopted by cyclists as well as non cyclists in the UK. this gives rise to the appearance of cyclists as different from the rest of the population

if we had the cycle paths i'd wear normal clothes and go helmetless here, but because most of the cycle lanes here weave in and out of the traffic i'll stick with trying to be seen and wear a lid

This, though it depends where you live.
There's something psychological about it I guess -when I used to commute in London I felt I needed every aid known to man to safely arrive at work in rush hour. Round the West End during the day, would have felt fine on a shopper though. Moved to Nottingham and was quite happy bimbling round on the paths.

[url=ht http://road.cc/content/news/12850-york-police-rear-light-fixed-penalty-fevertp:// ]Bike Lights Clampdown[/url]

Here's the reason the BMX bandits in York have lights. It is because the police had/have a concerted campaign of stopping all cyclists without lights, even on the riverbank cycle paths away from the roads, and issuing penalties. It works.

York also works as a 'normal' cycling city through positive initiatives to reduce cars in the city centre - it just wasn't designed for the volume of traffic that there is today. Those Romans and Danes had no foresight. From out of town you can park at any of the park and rides and cycle in for free. I know commuters who do this on a daily basis and not many do it in lycra - but they can if they want to.

Biggest problem though is that bike theft is huge. More bikes equals more opportunities, unless they nick them at night then they'll probably be busted for not having lights.

BTW this thread wasn't meant to be about slagging off people who wear bike specific clothes

Other than implying they have an "unhealthy" attitude to cycling you mean?

About half the people I see on bikes just seem to be wearing normal clothes, I'd say that the weather, bike theft, safety and laziness are all vastly more important factors on cycling than any perception about required clothing.

If just pottering about I still am likely to wear padded baggies as they're more comfortable and look like ordinary shorts more or less. When commuting I've always been fully lycrad up as it's always been for 30 mins or more so want the comfort but I'd just make ordinary clothes smell anyway if I wore them so what's the point in that?

My guess is that most sport cyclists wear cycling clothing when riding whilst the others are more likely not to and they're less likely to put a lot of effort in so stay smelling sweet..ish.

Things have changed over time in the UK. In Germany and Holland there was a concentrated want to keep people cycling, consequently cycle paths were designed 'in' from the 70's onwards. Here they weren't.

As a kid where I lived (Goole - very, very flat) most people cycled as car ownership (and use) was reasonably sparse. Not sure what its like now, but I guess the same as elsewhere, as cars/fuel became far cheaper - and then the habit stayed. And cycling wasn't designed 'in' - just kinda added on later...

Deleted - Actually I can be arsed to reply to this post - pointless!

On the continent though they have a proper cycle network which is set up for "pootling" (for want of a better word). There's no need for lycra or helmets and anyone who tries hurtling down a busy cycle path at 20mph is likely to get a mouthful of abuse or to crash. So everyone is doing the same 10-12mph, no-one is rushing, no-one is having to contend with traffic. For that you can easily wear normal clothes.

Over here, I don't have a joined up network, I have either a mix of A-roads on my commute where I need to match the speed of traffic to avoid being squashed or bullied or my alternative route is off-road where I need my cycling clothes that I don't mind getting muddy. And it's 15 miles so lycra is far and away the most comfy option.

Re getting daily supplies or going shopping, there's everything I need within a 5 minute walk of my house so cycling never comes into the equation.

I ride my bike to work if;

It's convenient (which rules out Mondays and Fridays as thats a 280mile journey each way)
I'm not going out on a night ride that evening (which rules out Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday)
I'm not working (which rules out the weekend)

I do have a touring bike for commuting but as you can see, it barely gets used 🙂

- Almost everyone there rides a sensible 'shopper'/town bike with a basket on the back, or touring type bike with panniers - I don't think I saw one BSO, and very few drop-barred road bikes
- No-one wears a helmet
- Everyone just wears normal clothes, no specialist cycling gear/lycra etc

Can you not put that down to fassion? Just because London has a fixie culture doesn't make it wrong and shopper bikes right. And most fakengers wear 'normal' clothes. I think you missed one other important point, A lot of European cities are built on flat ground, british cities tend to be built on hills/valleys as geographicaly thats our lot. Compare somewhere like Cambridge with Amseterdam and its comparable, comapre Sheffield to Amsterdam and the desire for lighter and more efficient bikes with gears is a little more obvious.

[i]A lot of European cities are built on flat ground, british cities tend to be built on hills/valleys as geographicaly thats our lot[/i]

I take it you've not travelled much...

Other than implying they have an "unhealthy" attitude to cycling you mean?

If you want to react in such a defensive way then I suppose you can. But yes I think the German attitude to cycling is better/healthier than ours, in that it seems to have a much broader appeal.

About half the people I see on bikes just seem to be wearing normal clothes, I'd say that the weather, bike theft, safety and laziness are all vastly more important factors on cycling than any perception about required clothing.

Yes, but I find it interesting (and possibly telling) that in comparison virtually everyone (99% plus at a guess) in Berlin was wearing normal clothes. And my point wasn't just about clothing, but bike choice, cycle lanes etc as well. But well done for picking on one thing that you don't agree with, and being overly defensive about it. 😉

I'd just make ordinary clothes smell anyway if I wore them so what's the point in that?

Not if you were 'pootling' along at 10-12mph like most seemed to be in Berlin. Perhaps it relates to the fact that we work longer hours on average I think than most European nations - we are constantly in a rush to be somewhere.

The clothing I wear reflects where I’m riding.

Anyone have any stats on the the number (proportionally or whatever) of people that ride regularly in these countries? Similar stats for kids/teens/young adults?

Just wondering how much impact a proactive cycling culture/environment might have on 'real world' health etc.

Netherlands health is an interesting one - life expectantcy, heart attacks and so on are similar to the uk by my understanding - the guess is that the cycling counteracts the smoking and high fat diets

There's a lot of other things different about Germany. does that mean they do it all right and we do it wrong? 😕

If you want to react in such a defensive way then I suppose you can.

I'm not being defensive. You are moaning about the direction of the thread, which is due to the language you chose to use in the OP!

Yes, but I find it interesting (and possibly telling) that in comparison virtually everyone (99% plus at a guess) in Berlin was wearing normal clothes.

I would say that this is due to lots more people cycling, it isn't a question of getting existing cyclists to wear normal clothes, it's just a statistical effect of getting more normal people on bikes.

we are constantly in a rush to be somewhere.

Yes, of course nobody in continental europe is ever in a rush to get anywhere.

The clothing I wear reflects where I’m riding.

Like this? Doesn't seem very sensible TBH. 😛

[img] [/img]

Just wondering how much impact a proactive cycling culture/environment might have on 'real world' health etc.

I dunno, but they eat a LOT of sausages in Germany. Seriously.

I'm not being defensive

Sure you're not.

Yes, of course nobody in continental europe is ever in a rush to get anywhere.

Does this style of arguing often go well for you?

it isn't a question of getting existing cyclists to wear normal clothes

Not really what I'm suggesting - I'm suggesting it would be good if in the UK it was less seen as a requirement for using a bike. I'm not telling you all to burn your lycra.

🙄

Incidentally, I only know one German (cyclist) and he's got a carbon road bike and a full suspension MTB...

DezB - ok looks like I was wrong then, close the thread.

If the Germans had the national mentality for wearing proper gear for the conditions then maybe the Russians wouldnt have kicked their arse on the eastern front.

Seriously though in the winter cycling without cycle specific clothing i dont find pleasant at all. Without sunglasses my eyes water, without gloves my fingers get cold, without a windstopper or similar then the wind just cuts right through. And cycling with 'normal' trousers on - and particularly jeans - in the rain is just a deeply unpleasant experience. In the summer this it isn't problem but in the winter i doubt i'd cycle at all if i had to do it in normal clothes.

A lot of European cities are built on flat ground, british cities tend to be built on hills/valleys as geographicaly thats our lot. Compare somewhere like Cambridge with Amseterdam and its comparable, comapre Sheffield to Amsterdam and the desire for lighter and more efficient bikes with gears is a little more obvious.

toffee bollox......

London - flat
Manchester - flat
Liverpool - flat

and we're not just talking about major cities. here in Germany people ride their bikes to and from work, to the shops, etc, etc. in smaller provincial towns, too...

A few people getting defensive about the clothing comment but when someone (dezb?) posted the confused non-cyclist rides to work video one of the first comments was why is the cyclist in lycra but the none cyclist is in normal clothes.

I was going to say inclement weather makes technical clothing a better idea even for short journeys, specially if you want it to have dried out by home time, but don't plenty of high % cycling countries have similar weather to us? What do they do when it's pissing down? catch the bus/tram instead? Put up with getting wet? (in their work clothes)

Donk
Its suprising how rare it actually is to get caught in the rain. Cycle journeys tend only to be a few minutes anyway but
[img] [/img]

that looks safe.

Its suprising how rare it actually is to get caught in the rain. Cycle journeys tend only to be a few minutes anyway

The west coast of Scotland is i suspect wetter and windier than most of Europe sp I dont think going along the likes of great western road with an umbrella like that is really a sensible option, although it might be good to use as a sail!

I find the riding with a brolly idea lunacy but its not uncommon.

In reality the Netherlands has similar weather to us - people simply cycle to work in normal clothes - a nice big overcoat, maybe a hat. For the length of journeys ( and here as well the sigificant numbers of car journers are only a couple of miles) the ten mins or so you will be cycling is not enough to get cold and wet

You all need to read this

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/oct/24/bike-snobs-guide-cycling-tribes ]The bike snob's guide to cycling tribes[/url]

Which one are you? 😉

toffee bollox......

London - flat
Manchester - flat
Liverpool - flat

Yes, and I suspect that they have greater %age of people cycling than for example Sheffield?

Netherlands
Belgium
Germany north of Bavaria/Alps

Entire countries that are flat.

Ah, here's nice game. If UK drivers were like UK cyclists... ie:

"They'd all be wearing string back gloves or one piece race overalls."
"A typical commuter car would be a single geared 3 wheeled rotary with no brakes or a heavily specced Dakar rally racer with 5 point harnesses and roll cage".

And so on.

A cycling friend of mine moved to Berlin a year ago. Her perception is the same as the OP, everybody has a 'dutch' style bike and the cycle lanes are excellent, as I recall from SSWC04.

She did say that serious or sporting cyclists are a rarity. probably all in Majorca enjoying the sun!