[Closed] Cyclists. Do you have a death wish ! (Roadie content)

New Year newbies. Resolutions to loose a stone, etc. Loads out my way today, 5 or more times usual numbers and one group of 30 odd.

Won't last long, don't worry.

Perhaps you should have slowed down once you realised how busy it was and knowing how popular it is?

Oh and extra points for getting in the two abreast bit as well

To be fair to the fella there was alot of fresh lycra on the roads today..... Made obvious by the roads they were riding just paralel to great quiet riding roads ---- on the busy roads - you only need to cross the main roads , no need to ride along em youd have to be a bit mental to choose to do it.

Out today off road in the new forest...

Crossing a road, heavy fog, 6 roadies, no lights.... nutters!

Troll

Oh, another one of these threads. It makes you wonder what changed so significantly since you last drove. Perhaps the approach of 2013 has sent 90% of cyclists mental.

Must admit I should have had a rear light on today, a bit foolish and felt slightly vunerable on my way to local trails. Left the house after not really looking at the weather, got further into country roads and it was pretty foggy. Sometimes its just a mistake, but no need for his comment.

Ti pin : 🙄

Lols

I must agree with the OP. Just because its the middle of the day, it doesnt mean visibility is good!

I have a couple of sets of those little LED lights. They stay on my bike near enough all year round.

Some people are just ****ing stupid.

Just trying to get people to consider raising their visibility when on the road that's all ! Excuse me for voicing an opinion on a relevant cycling issue on a cycling forum !!!

Those that think its trolling or nonsense... Get back to your 'what tyres for?' Threads 🙁

Had my lights on most of the Day between the trails, been a Pea Souper round here.

Saw a stupid number of riders without lights in the thick fog when I did a loop around and over Winter Hill earlier. I just presumed that they all had a death wish. Idiots.

I only saw one road cyclist out today and he had lights.

Saw a couple of mountain bikers near nibthwaite and I dont think they had lights though (its not something you usually think of using if you go mtbing though!)

If it was foggy, damp, etc, were you driving significantly slower?
I drove my van round that area too today, had no problem seeing roadies.
Eye test maybe?

I ploughed into a bunch of cyclists today because I was travelling too fast to see them. they were ok about it, at least the ones who survived were, as I pointed out they didn't have any lights on! doh! Never mind, eh. we live and learn.

I really can't be bothered to pull up the chair and watch the debate yet again between cyclists and drivers. Nothing changes, cars continue to kill cyclist and eek cars might get slightly scratched. Yes we should all be more considerate for our lives and the lives of others but its been debated on here so very many times its getting tiring. Yes we sjould make sure we're more visible on foggy days to aboid death, but i dont believe any laws are broken and if they have theres no enforcement. no of which makes it any more sensibke not to be visible. yada yada yada. the usual conclusion is theres Knobs on bikes and knobs in cars. Nuff said.

Edit: love predictive text 😉

New Year newbies. Resolutions to loose a stone, etc. Loads out my way today, 5 or more times usual numbers and one group of 30 odd.

Won't last long, don't worry.

I'm guessing that the time trialists who use the A38 in all weathers are a bit more than New Year newbies. Some have bright coloured tops which, unfortunately, are hidden from upcoming motorists by the fact they're bent over the bars. A pair of yellow shorts or a flashing LED on the seatpost (very little weight penalty) might make them a bit more visible in the fog or half light.

I've see several soberly dresses cyclists out on the misty Devon roads this weekend who could've improved their visibility to more lethal traffic by not wearing black or having some sort of lights.

I've got a couple of road riding friends who like to camouflage themselves in trendy black or grey cycling apparel (with a trendy logo & a little pink band on the sleeve). People can't be told though. Roadies* in denial 🙄 They'd rather polarise the motorist/cyclist debate than take any personal responsibility for making them selves more obvious out on the tarmac.

Cheers,

yer man in the fluoro tabard,

Rich.

*(and many other kinds of cyclist)

Just trying to get people to consider raising their visibility when on the road that's all ! Excuse me for voicing an opinion on a relevant cycling issue on a cycling forum !!!

Having an opinion, you know an opinion, like your opinion, an opinion which is yours is illegal on here.
Saw loads today on the way to racing, thick fog and no lights, and shorts SHORTS!
Bet they never had pumps either.
mleh.

What TPM said.

Unless there's a legal duty on cyclists to use lights in fog then the duty is on drivers to drive according to the conditions.

'legal duty' v's 'common sense'.

It is every road users responsibility to make them self's visible.

Drivers need to drive to the conditions, but we as cyclist should have the ounce to have some lights if we are going to go out in fog low visibility.

I was out on the Ped today and saw a cyclist, cutting a blind corner in very thick fog. even if the car was doing 2mph he wouldnt have seen the cyclist, and in the opinion of people like cynic-al he would be in the right.

Every road user should take responsibility for themselfs and others.

slugwash, lots of testers use powerful LEDs, which is nice.

They're so cheap, powerful and light that just about every rider I know or see has one on at all times. See motorists might not be that fond of cyclists, but they love pretty lights.

I think this Sunday was 'special Sunday'.

I did 40miles solo on the roadbike this morning over the Surrey Hills and up on the tops the visability was very poor at times. Everyone - cyclists and car drivers - should have had lights on. I did and was very glad.

Unless there's a legal duty on cyclists to use lights in fog then the duty is on drivers to drive according to the conditions.

I also think that some of the poeple on here should read this

https://www.gov.uk/rules-for-cyclists-59-to-82/overview-59-to-71

Rscott - Member

I was out on the Ped today and saw a cyclist, cutting a blind corner in very thick fog. even if the car was doing 2mph he wouldnt have seen the cyclist, and in the opinion of people like cynic-al he would be in the right.

The cyclist was on the wrong side of the road? Where did I condone that?

svalgis - Member
Doesn't really matter if you're right or wrong when you're dead though, does it.

Indeed but the law as I understand it does not require cyclists to use lights, and I for one don't want to create a culture where the blamne is shifted from drivers to cyclists (see helmet use).

Also as I understand it there is no duty on cyclists to wear bright clothing, as regards contributory negligence, in RTCs - from caselaw, and in spite of the HC link above.

My mate and I were out around the surrey lanes today.

Both keep rear lights on the road bike all the time. My mates was out of battery, should have checked before we set out but then it wasn't obviously foggy at my place. I wished id had a front light on tbh.

I guess my point is that I guess a lot of the riders without lights probably wished they did have them

I'm guessing that the time trialists who use the A38 in all weathers are a bit more than New Year newbies.

There's common sense and reasonable precautions as a road user, and there's blame-shifting.

cynic-al I appologise you didn't condone that at all. But your post does seem to suggest that it isn't a cyclist responsibility to make them self's visable

lol! cynic-al! Really? Are you more concerned about legalities than your own safety? It wont mean jack sh*te when you are in hospital, whos fault it was! Riding m/bikes everyday and you'll realise that you should do whatever it takes to avoid having an accident - I dont care who's bl**dy fault an accident is!

The highway code advises all road users to wear hi-vis or reflective clothing in poor visibility, that applies to walkers, horse riders, cyclists....and cars should have lights on too.

If somebody is out in crappy weather and dressed in dark clothing when hit by another road user then i have very little sympathy, you cant help people who wont help themselves.

Unless I missed this the OP wasn't complaining about the cyclists being selfish or holding them but was commenting on how stupid it is not to make yourself visible in poor conditions.

cynic-al - Member
What TPM said.

Unless there's a legal duty on cyclists to use lights in fog then the duty is on drivers to drive according to the conditions.

As always all road users need to be considerate and sensible.
Written as a mountain biker, roadie, and driver.

When I woke up at 8 it was misty, then cleared by 10am when I finally left the house.

My intention was to stay off road but due to the quagmire went back on road, needless to say the conditions were misty 6 miles from home and I only had my rear light.

In hindsight should have taken my front light 'just in case'

Cumbrianmonkey makes a very valid point.

@OP and while we're at it what's with them riding down the A24 in Leatherhead direction instead of using the cycle path alongside. Bloody idiots! And how much fun can that be, on a busy dual carriageway with traffic buzzing past continuously.

I don't get it at all. Like you say, deathwish.

(Aside: I drove the same area today, as the OP says it was a salutary lesson in how lights and/or bright clothing help raise the odds of rider survival. Perhaps it shouldn't be that way, but it is).

I saw loads more riders than usual out this morning and like others have said very few had any form of lights on or bright clothing. I know I am slightly paranoid about riding with lights on in iffy conditions (and I always keep a rear light on at all times) but why would anyone think it a good idea to set off in the early morning when it's foggy and drizzly and not put lights on. As some have said, we expect drivers to be aware of the condiitons and conduct themsleves accordingly but in the same way as I expect drivers to see and be seen shouldn't we as cyclists do the same?

We drove 90 miles today, all of the journey in various thicknesses of fog, and all bar one of the cyclists we saw had no lights.

Most of the roads we were on were 50 speed limit too.

Mentalists.

Where did I say I cared more abot legalities than safety?

cumbrian I think you need to chill out a bit.

In any event the point about fog is that it reduces visibility. A driver could come across pedestrians, stopped traffic etc, if he's not driving safely according to the conditions then he's putting all other roud users at risk. It's like that RTC where the driver got off killing a cyclist because the sun was in his eyes.

I'm happy for folk to dress like Xmas trees when they ride their bikes, and I have reflective stuff and lights, I just don't think there should be a duty in these circumstances.

Could not agree more with the OP

It was so dark and damp this morning almost every car had its lights on, most with dipped ... where as, almost every cyclist had no lights and worse still the vast majority were wearing black as well !!

We here alot about using our presents on the road to help keep us safe... riding two abreast or in the middle of the road where needs be and I of course agree with this.... But you've got naff all presents if you can't be seen

PLUG YOURSELVES IN

and BRIGHTEN UP.

I was planning to ride my road bike this mlorning, which I already fitted with front and rear lights, but chickened out due to the visibility and went off-road instead. Had a flashing front light, but rear flashy didn't work. Felt vulnerable, and a bit of a tit on the mile or so road section home, and glad it wasn't any longer. Think I agree with the sentiments of the OP.

OP and factor, good points, well made. Ignore the lazy trolling accusing you of the same.

I was out for a latish ride yesterday and bit off a little too much. Result was I took short cut home on roads just after 16:00. No lights and wearing all black. 😳 No more than a mile and a half, but frankly it was me being slightly stupid (although i would have walked if it was really dark) and I would not have been able to duck the blame if a motorist had not seen me. As others have said WE all have responsibilities on the road. I failed mine briefly yesterday and sounds as if the roadies were doing the same around Box Hill today. IMO of course!

Did anyone drive into the back of any of these people?
If not, do you think that just down to luck, or some other reason?

Oh do the law doesn't say a cyclist has to wear high viz clothing or use lights in fog or mist so that absolves them from any responsibility, that is utterly stupid and you must be a cretin to go out on your bike without taking proper precautions.

The issue doesn't seem to be confined just to cyclists, I lost count of the number of motorists driving in the fog without lights, and theirs are permanently fitted, requiring only a flick of the switch.Something else i've noticed about dull grey conditions on dull grey roads is that most cars without lights are also a shade of dull grey that blends them in very nicely, anybody else noticed this?

I just realised on the A24 (Mickleham Bends) they all think they're recreating the Olympics.

Note to MAMILS on the A24: FOR WIGGO THE POLICE SHUT THE ROADS. FOR YOU, THEY DON'T.

Good point OP.. it's a crying shame that whenever a thread like this arises, raising valid points about road safety, you invariably get an army of militant roadies spouting crap about how they own the road and it's everyone else that needs to accommodate them..

Whilst I can kind of sympathise with their fanatical zeal, and appreciate the good intent, the fact remains that militant cyclists are not helping anyone or anything by living out their macho people's hero fantasies..

we're all really sorry that you didn't have the gumption to rebel in your teens, but please don't do it on our roads

Did anyone drive into the back of any of these people?
If not, do you think that just down to luck, or some other reason?

Maybe none of those without lights didn't get hit today.

They're hardly stacking the odds in their favour are they though.

We all have to obey the law, and the law mostly says (I'm paraphrasing here) don't drive in such a way that it puts everyone else in danger. It's a rare day on the roads that what cyclists do 'endangers' other road users Cyn Al is pretty much spot on, if it's foggy; then drive like your likely to run into something.

Blaming cyclists for not wearing hi viz stuff is the moral equivalent of handing out stab vests to drinkers in town centres on a Friday night.

I got caught out today, it was quite clear when I left with sun trying to break through, with the forecast for brightening conditions. By Mid ride its right murky, poor enough that I wouldn't have ridden if it was like it at the start. I switched the the last part to an off road route.

yunki - Member
Good point OP.. it's a crying shame that whenever a thread like this arises, raising valid points about road safety, you invariably get an army of [u]cyclists raising valid points about road safety[/u] [s]militant roadies spouting crap about how they own the road and it's everyone else that needs to accommodate them[/s].

al, I feel as if you're replying to something in the lines of "drivers should be allowed to drive as fast as they want in any conditions!". I just can't seem to find that post in here, because nobody is saying that. As an exposed road user it's a good idea to make yourself visible regardless of what those around you are doing.

There was no actual incident so there's no blame to apportion. The OP's point was that going out in the fog with no lights is cretinously stupid. I agree - but then I always use lights even in broad daylight, so I'm probably classed as a nutjob by STW standards.

Did anyone drive into the back of any of these people?
If not, do you think that just down to luck, or some other reason?

Luck. It's only a matter of time before some unfortunate family gets a visit from the police to say daddy's not coming home today. We are cycle-aware drivers (we're on their side FFS!) and if we're seeing a problem you can bet WVM (or SDD**) isn't seeing them at all.

That can happen anytime of course, but I drove the same roads today as OP and he was spot on. We need to do what we can to keep the odds in our favour.

* Sunday Driver Desmond

OP + 1.

Testers with bright lights (and usually black kit) - 1.

the law doesn't say a cyclist has to wear high viz clothing or use lights in fog or mist so that absolves them from any responsibility, that is utterly stupid

you must be a cretin to go out on your bike without taking proper precautions.

Another one driving round Surrey Hills today - and surprised at how many riders out on the road. A25 was packed with groups.
And visibility was appalling - a right pea souper of a fog along most of the A25. Not easy to see ahead at all.

I support the OP that it shows poor judgement to ride in such poor visibility without lights - the A25 is 50mph road so most of the traffic is going at speed. As a cyclist you're bloody vulnerable - give the drivers a chance to see you if you want to stay safe. No point being legally right and dead!
That said I eased up on the speed when I realised how many people were out riding in such poor visibility - seemed the sensible thing to do...

I don't think the cyclists riding without lights realised how hard they were to see. I would have thought it's commonsense tbh but we all know it's not that common!

Face it, if someone drives in the back of you they will almost certainly face no punishment, so the legality is bollocks anyway. It's been shown time and again that you can kill people in low sun by not seeing them, and that's ok, so the same will be true of fog.

The law does nothing to protect cyclists. Lights do.

Exactly ! This is not about anyone VS anyone else.. Just simple sense and logic. When we are driving we are aware of bikes, after all that is what we think about much of the time. It's just that there are a huge number of non bike thinking, non anticipating, road users out there, and we all need to give them all the help they can get.

And.... The lights thing is as important on those low sun, sunny days (remember them !) as well .

This is the first time I have ever been drawn into this type of debate, as more often than not they tend to descent into bun fight. Anyway……………………………

I believe the OP was being genuine and simply demonstrated a little humanity, which in turn was taken and used out of context. I ride loads, mostly with my children these days, but I’ve put my ‘time’ into road cycling with loads of long distance tri training miles and have been ‘privy’ to plenty of jaw-dropping ‘events’ and a cavalier attitude from every cycling genre over the years.

Cyclists (me too) need to accept and deal with the fact that there are heaps and heaps of vehicles on the roads and they will continue to ‘breed’ exponentially. Some riders, not all, but some might benefit from the addition of a few ‘reality drops’ in their pre-race bidons. For the majority (I’m assuming) this isn’t the Alps it’s either a busy A or B road, or a jam-packed ‘retreat’ such as the Peak or something. I have found the best approach to be the defensive-aggressive.

Defensive, for example would not be winding up an entire que of drivers by religiously sticking to an antiquated ride two abreast law ….yes, we have the right but it means nothing to the capitalist bully boy (or girl, Oh yes I’ve seen plenty of girl on bike action too) who’s going to ram us - would we all walk up to a bull and pull it’s nose hair out? Discretion is the key, I fancy?

Aggressive, as in fluro-bib/pac cover and/or mini-helmet lamp to compliment the bar lamp (great in a thick traffic, no pun intended , scenario). Occupying the correct position in the road, especially at/on roundabouts and engaging drivers visually i.e. not wearing dark lenes during rush-hour commuting: there’s loads one can do and still look great/match …..sorry, that’s my tri days coming to the fore.

For drivers to yield and give us the respect we crave, we must be squeaky-clean. Which means, not persisting in all those things (and there are many) that inflame our ‘relationship’.

Unfair, definitely, but they are the dominant and stronger ‘species’ out on the savannah.

Take it or leave it darlings. Oh, had a great ride with my lads today btw 😉

Keep on trucking! XX

I saw one guy out in (white framed) sunglasses today. And dressed in his Sky black kit. Bet he though he looked like Froome. FFS.

@OP and while we're at it what's with them riding down the A24 in Leatherhead direction instead of using the cycle path alongside. Bloody idiots! And how much fun can that be, on a busy dual carriageway with traffic buzzing past continuously.

I don't get it at all. Like you say, deathwish

This does make me laugh. The A24 is a seriously cycle unfriendly road at the Mickleham bends and the cycle path is probably the best in Surrey. I used the cycle path today and overtook a couple of "Wiggo wanabees" riding on the road. When they realised that the cycle path was just as quick they moved onto the cycle path. Very strange.

In the land of cycling - Belgium - you legally have to ride the cycle paths if they are there. Although the cycle paths are brillant over there.

It's true that if you are out cycling for a while and it starts getting dull/dark you can often not notice whereas stepping out of you house you might immediately notice it. I try to err on the side of caution and put some sort of light on before it is really "necessary". having said that, I also tend to favour brighter coloured clothing for road riding (Rapha/Sky take note).

Even on the brightest days, things like the sudden transition to/from tree cover and the effects of sun glancing off a not-perfectly-clean windscreen mean a rear light is a pretty useful thing to have.

Well it's a bit of a crap path in terms of surface, I don't doubt the road is a tad quicker, but i'd sooner ride the path than end up smeared across some driver's bonnet, which is what's gonna happen sadly. And the traffic is so heavy I don't see what fun the road would be anyway, a fairly miserable and frightening experience.

Re lights: I usually ride with front on rear on, regardless of conditions.

[quote=mattjg ]
Re lights: I usually ride with front on rear on, regardless of conditions.
There are good reasons for NOT riding with a front light on in bright conditions. They can make you a lot less visible.

(during WW2, anti-submarine aircraft in the Pacific were fitted with front-facing lights as camouflage, allowing them to get close enough to submarines to sink them with depth charges before the subs had a chance to submerge too deep)

OK - what reasons? Got a link for that? Ta.

The issue about riding with a bright light is that it can make a darker object (you) less visible against your background and makes it nigh on impossible to judge speed. This is less of an issue with motor vehicles as the observer has two light sources approaching and can judge speed by the rate at which these sources are apparently diverging. The UK Transport and Road Research Laboratory did lots of studies on this when assessing whether to make daytime headlamp use compulsory for motorcycles. I don't know if any of that research is available online.

For the WW2 stuff, this link is a starter..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehudi_lights

Thx for link.

Side issue: I do recall reading somewhere (can't substantiate it, sorry) that drivers find it harder to assess position and movement of a flashing light than a solid light.

It was fine where I live in Surrey, but it got foggy near the Hogsback. I was driving / walking, but if I was cycling I wouldn't have known it was necessary to bring lights. I bet a lot of cyclists out today got caught out.

What this thread is implying, roughly speaking, is that you should always have lights on your bike at all times. I happen to be ok (I always have a Knog or something on front and back as emergency backup) but that would be yet another impediment / expense for people to just get out on their bikes.

The issue doesn't seem to be confined just to cyclists, I lost count of the number of motorists driving in the fog without lights, and theirs are permanently fitted, requiring only a flick of the switch.Something else i've noticed about dull grey conditions on dull grey roads is that most cars without lights are also a shade of dull grey that blends them in very nicely, anybody else noticed this?

I just realised on the A24 (Mickleham Bends) they all think they're recreating the Olympics.

What do you mean by this?

that drivers find it harder to assess position and movement of a flashing light than a solid light.

I believe this absolutely.

that drivers find it harder to assess position and movement of a flashing light than a solid light.

I believe this absolutely.

But they saw you eh?

I just realised on the A24 (Mickleham Bends) they all think they're recreating the Olympics.

What do you mean by this?

Its a tedious "why don't they use the cycle path" troll thats been done 100's of times before.

As for lights, who knows, its the first ride of the year, maybe they just grabbed their bike after the xmas break and forgot? maybe it wasn't foggy when they left? maybe they usually ride in the daylight and don't think they are necessary?

Not a troll. Tedious, maybe, that's subjective.

I wish drivers didn't habitually drive too fast for their visibility of the road ahead. I'm tired of hearing "I came round a corner and had to slam on the brakes" type stuff from motorist. Everyone should be conditioned to expect an unlit skip to have been dropped in the road somewhere ahead. Perhaps using actual skips

Bez - Member
Even on the brightest days, things like the sudden transition to/from tree cover and the effects of sun glancing off a not-perfectly-clean windscreen mean a rear light is a pretty useful thing to have

I just realised on the A24 (Mickleham Bends) they all think they're recreating the Olympics.

What do you mean by this?