You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
discuss right or wrong
Deserved everything he got.
He killed someone through stupid actions deserves it.
reading one comment you do have to wonder if there is more to the story than the report states. But yes if you kill then you should be punished, you can't say that drivers go to jail but cyclists don't.
he killed someone through his own selfish actions while riding on a footpath - both illegal
definately deserved being jailed - just because he's a cyclist doesn't mean that what he did was any less wrong. If he'd been in a car or on a motorbike he would have been charged with vehicular homicide (in the states) and probably been put away for longer
I disagree - he was treated too leniently.
deliberately mounting the kerb is not an accident.
got off lightly.
what happened to life for a life?
Deserves more than he got TBH.
seems fair enough. I like the picture of 'deadly' cyclists in the article too.
[edit] ...actually seven months? If he really was riding like a demon perhaps he should have got more: the article just quotes what the vicim's daughter said about his maner of riding, not any other witnesses.
He was treated very leniently, I'd say, though how much does the typical driver who kills someone get?
On average, three pedestrians die each year in Britain in collisions with cyclists. Just ten per cent of those accidents occur on footways.
Doesn't really fit with the "OMG bikes on pavements!!!" attitude often seen on here and in the press. Especially when you consider the "40 pedestrians [...] killed annually by motor vehicles on footways or verges".
though how much does the typical driver who kills someone get?
Probably actually more than that on average. Though that's not really the point - people who kill with cars are also treated too leniently in general, particularly when as in this case there was gross negligence (as mrs aracer pointed out regarding an article in the CTC mag, you shouldn't be locked up for years just for making a small mistake when you weren't doing anything else wrong).
Quote from the sister of the chap jailed in the comments
Firstly this artical is not right he did not run a red light then mount the pavement he was acctually forced on to the pavement by a RED car, an his intention was to join the road again after he went round the corner. as usual the press have fabricated the story to sound bad ,my brother was a hard working lad who ride to work daily four mile and back each day unlike alot of young people these days.- Sarah James, devon
Not to say I disagree with the sentence though
Seems quite simple to me. DO NOT RIDE ON THE PAVEMENT unless it's clearly marked at a combined cycle and pedestrian route. If it is, control your speed. I don't know the facts of the case so I can't comment on the sentence, but it seems lenient if it's as the press described and harsh if it's as the guys sister describes in that he might have been hit himself if he hadn't avoided the car. He should have stopped as soon as he was forced onto the pavement though.
The daughter of the gut next door to me was killed by a someone who wasn't paying attention & wandered into the hard shoulder on the A1M
He got 6 years
IMO the prick on the bike should have got a similar sentence
There is only careless or dangerous driving, which the Crown Prosecution Service thought was too minor.'
this is a strange quote from the CPS - why is killing a ped more serious if it is a cyclist than a car driver?
but no need to be on the pavement - when i occasionally do it - i make sure i am slow and courteous.
careless or dangerous driving
This isn't usually what they'd charge a driver with for death - that's "Death by careless or dangerous driving" IIRC though often the charge does get downgraded.
Not convinced that statement from his sister changes much - if he was forced onto the pavement he should have stopped, or at least slowed down a lot.
There is only careless or dangerous driving, which the Crown Prosecution Service thought was too minor.'this is a strange quote from the CPS - why is killing a ped more serious if it is a cyclist than a car driver?
That quote doesn't show that's what they thought, does it? Rather that because it's so rare they had to hunt about for a suitable law/charge for him.
Seems quite simple to me. DO NOT RIDE ON THE PAVEMENT
Or, do not ride on the pavement [b]carelessly[/b]? Riding one a pavement is not intrinsically dangerous.
Presumably driving carefully on the pavement is ok too then?
Presumably driving carefully on the pavement is ok too then?
Why? Bikes are not cars...
If I knock someone over while jogging what's the sentence?
Presumably driving carefully on the pavement is ok too then?
If you can do so without getting in people's way and get completely out of the way when necessary then sure, why not.
Pedestrian: 12 stone @4mph squishy
Runner: 12 stone @10mph squishy
Cyclist: 13 stone @15mph squishy
Fast cyclist: 13 stone @20mph squishy
Car: 1 ton @30mph armoured
If you had to group these into two groups, for road and pavement, where would you draw the dividing line?
[i]The daughter of the gut next door to me was killed by a someone who wasn't paying attention & wandered into the hard shoulder on the A1M
He got 6 years[/i]
You don't have a link to this story in the press do you?
I've never heard of a driver getting a sentence of that magnitude for driving without paying attention.
It must be heart-wrenching to have lost a relative and see the culprit get such a paltry sentence. A friend's Dad cycling on the road was run over and killed by a 4x4 last Christmas eve, the driver drove off as he "didn't realise" he hit anyone even though he drove over the guy's head. Cycling on roads is far too dangerous for me to run the gauntlet, so I ride on pavements where I feel it's safe for me to do so. I don't ride around blind bends at speed and I avoid pedestrians as much as I avoid road vehicles. I run the risk of a £30 fine and minimise the chances of a road vehicle killing me, I don't believe I'm putting pedestrian's lives at risk by doing so. The majority of motorists are totally blind to cyclists, which isn't my fault and is beyond my control. So therefore I ride on pavements wherever I see fit.
enfht's stance is supported by the Home Office in their advice to police on when to issue the £30 fine.
IanMunro - I'd guess he wasn't paying attention and ended up killing someone - but the police would still charge him with "Causing Death by careless or Dangerous driving" as not paying attention is "careless" so thats probably what he got sent down for.
If he'd just had a minor accident and no one was hurt, or even just spotted by the police wandering onto the hard shoulder he'd probably have been done for "Driving without due care and attention"
Loving Dave Hedgehogs comments, didn't think people like that still existed.
Sorry not got a link to it - it was 7 or 8 years ago
IIRC he had the truck on cruise control & piled into an overturned car + a van & another car that were [helping the folks in the overturned car] on the hard shoulder
I think 4 or 5 people died
I ride on the road a lot - commute every day, I ride very defensively when it comes to cars.
As for pedestrians - they are far worse than cars for not seeing cyclists, maybe because they think cyclists are not a threat, every day at least one pedestrian does the leming impression and throws themselves across the road without seeing me. I've perfected the one handed salute and abuse whilst flicking the bike around them!
I don't see the need to ride on the pavement on most roads (the busiest A road there may be a point if there isn't a cyclepath) but I can understand enfht's point - not sure I'd take my wife (who's less confident on a bike) on some of the routes I regularly ride.
As for pedestrians - they are far worse than cars for not seeing cyclists, maybe because they think cyclists are not a threat,
That's because most people [even cyclists when walking 🙂 ] use mainly hearing & a bit of peripheral vision to cross most roads - it's only when something catches their eye or they hear something that they then investigate further
He killed someone. The sentence befits. His sister saying he was he jumped onto the kerb to avoid a car. Why didnt he hop straight back off then? Same if you jump a red light, you take your chances.
Its not 'us and them'. We all too use the roads as drivers. I'd like to see tougher punishment for mobile phone use and death by dangerous driving. The lad last year who got off with community service for plowing into a girl on the pavement though- I dont get it. He was hooning down the pavement. Why did he get off?!
I see plenty of people driving on the pavement, lots of houses near me permanently have off street parking that is actually just a massively wide pavement.
So on average cyclists kill 3 peds a year 10% of those on the pavement, so 1 pedestrian every 3 years(ish) killed by cyclists versus 40 a year by cars [b]on the pavement/verge[/b]. Brings it all into focus a bit more don't it.
Assuming the rider wasn't run off the road by a car and [i]immediatly and unavoidably[/i] hit the guy, a jail term sounds fair, possibly leniant but plenty of car drivers get leniant sentences too. Not surprised the press didn't mention the red car tho, wonder how much bearing that had on the incident.
To their credit two CSO's let me off a fine in January, but I don't think the copper/CSO driving their van was too impressed when I diligently rode off up the road blocking them getting past for a good half a mile just to prove a point. 😐
Ps. enfht if you feel the road is too dangerous, walk on pavements. Its not fair on pedestrians having to cross roads and keep alookout for potential other hazards on the pavement as well. Last week a lad was run over and killed by a truck on my commute-route. These things happen. I'm not going to inconvenience others though if I felt the roads were too unsafe to ride on.
Pedestrian: 12 stone @4mph squishy
Runner: 12 stone @10mph squishy
Cyclist: 13 stone @15mph squishy
Fast cyclist: 13 stone @20mph squishy
Car: 1 ton @30mph armoured
whether the person is squishy or not is pretty irrelevant, death is more likely to be as a result of pedestrian's head hitting very not squishy pavement or curb. base don that logic you need to look at each of those cases and consider which ones are likely to result in a collision which whould end up knocking someone over.
The speed of a cyclist makes that significantly more likely as they have less chance of avoiding the pedestrian and if they do hit, the greater speed / energy is fairly likely to put the pedestrian on the floor.
To be honest if a jogger knocks someone over and kills them they should be in serious trouble anyway IMO.
Oh and i don't know waht your bikes are made of but mine are fairly hard with looks of pointy sticky out bits like bars etc.
Don't forget to add in mobility scooters/karts @7mph 🙂
Pedestrian: 12 stone @4mph squishy
Runner: 12 stone @10mph squishy
Cyclist: 13 stone @15mph squishy
Fast cyclist: 13 stone @20mph squishy
Car: 1 ton @30mph armouredIf you had to group these into two groups, for road and pavement, where would you draw the dividing line?
Mores to the point, if you were to suggest anyone could use the pavement "carefully", I'd say that 15mph is not careful on a normal pavement and neither is 30mph. Cars at 5mph are fairly safe to be hit by, mainly because they have the brakes to stop almost instantly at those speeds and their large flat surfaces make something to fall onto, rather than be knocked down by. So if you want to be pedantic, the poster said "carefully" and your comparison did not include "careful" speeds.
If you'd ever been hit by a large cyclist at 20mph I'm fairly sure you wouldnt say they were at all squish, or that they caused little damage. Cars arent overly squisy, but the majority of their panels will bend considerably with little force - this makes them softer at low speeds and harder at high speeds as you go "through" and hit supports/engine etc.
If you were to look at the amount of kinetic energy the vehicle brings to the table as an indicator of how much damage it would cause;
The average car at 5mph - 0.5*1250*2.2*2.2 = 3025
The 100kg rider at 20mph - 0.5*8.94*8.94*100 = 3 996
Heavy bike rider at a fair whack carries more energy than a careful car.
enfht if you feel the road is too dangerous, walk on pavements. Its not fair on pedestrians having to cross roads and keep alookout for potential other hazards on the pavement as well. Last week a lad was run over and killed by a truck on my commute-route. These things happen. I'm not going to inconvenience others though if I felt the roads were too unsafe to ride on.
Pedestrians don't have to cross roads or keep a lookout for me, I do that for them, responsibly. That's the difference. Why should I risk death for the sake of an imaginary scenario which in reality I avoid from occurring? Hora are you actually familiar with the shocking level of third-world driving standards in London?
dorset echo better coverage and comments
accident and both very unlucky - general condition of pedestrian meant some operations after accident not possible
all sorts of different punsihments for offences re drivers, cyclists and muggers and burglars
loads of pavements in kent are mixed pedestrain and bike lanes
what about 15mph on a bridleway??? loads of blind corners too!!!
To be honest if a jogger knocks someone over and kills them they should be in serious trouble anyway IMO.
I don't see why. What about if I just bump into someone walking? What if a child roller skates along a pavement and an old lady falls over? What if someone trips over a twig?
Why can no-one on these threads accept the possibiity of accidents occuring? Everything isn't someone's fault, and even if it were I fail to see the utility of locking people up (at huge expense).
Because a jogger has chosen to jog along the pavement and should ensure they are doing it safely and considerately. Barging into another pedestrian causing them to fall over and die is pretty reckless.
I count accidents as things that happen without human intervention, e.g. ice on the road, twigs on pavements, branches falling off trees. Under our stupid blame culture all those things proably have someone to blame as well but to me they are genuine accidents
Almost 7yrs of commuting from West Hampstead into Oxford Circus.Hora are you actually familiar with the shocking level of third-world driving standards in London?
I had to cross the notorious Swiss cottage junction daily on my way to Regents Park!
Its really sad re the 20yr old lad however, again why did the lad at a reported 25mph running down and killing a young girl on a pavement get off with community service last year?
"[i]I count accidents as things that happen without human intervention, e.g. ice on the road, twigs on pavements, branches falling off trees[/i]"
accidents must be based partly on intentions - human thoughts etc must be a big part in whether its a accident
ice on road - driving at 60mph in a country lane???? or driving at 10mph and crashing
ice on road is natural occurance (unless building the road is human intervention)
do animals have accidents - yes I hit a badger (it was ok)at 20mph on a night ride went between whells and under back one(thumbs up for vpp suspension)
offroad everything to do with stopping on rocks/stones etc - so whose not been round a tight bend on a bridleway (shared use of course) at over 15mph???
Because a jogger has chosen to jog along the pavement and should ensure they are doing it safely and considerately. Barging into another pedestrian causing them to fall over and die is pretty reckless.
Well the "causing them to ... die" bit isn't right, since you could bump into someone and they fall over 1000 times and 999 times they would not die. The dieing would be due to some other unfortunate circumstance, i.e., luck.
As for bumping into people when jogging... it's pretty difficult to avoid sometimes when people jump out from behind trees, suddenly veer across your path without warning, or many other such dumb things that people do, I regularly have to take avoiding action. If I did knock someone over it would not be my fault, it would be theirs, and I tend to think the same about cycling on shared paths. I'm going not too fast and keeping an eye out, that's my side of the bargain, but if someone doesn't look where they are going and steps into my path, they (at the very least) share responsibility for any untoward outcome.
Well Hora it sounds like you played Russian Roullette and won so lucky you.
when people suddenly veer across your path without warning, or many other such dumb things that people do, I regularly have to take avoiding action. If I did knock someone over it would not be my fault, it would be theirs, and I tend to think the same about cycling on shared paths. I'm going not too fast and keeping an eye out, that's my side of the bargain...
But thats not your side of the bargain, your 'side' is to be riding responsibly and not putting others at risk from your actions. If they cant/dont see you when they decide to cross a [u]shared[/u] path then your the one thats going to cause the damage (by virtue of you being the one who is going to hit them), in this case of a shared path you should be in a position to avoid this collision, ie. by slowing down when you get near them. Tho we have let you off for the ones that appear out of nowhere, been there myself, where the hell do those people come from!?
In 2007, cyclist Peter Messen – who killed a pedestrian while riding on a pavement in Cornwall at 25mph – escaped with 300 hours of community service.
Thats wrong.
RealMan - MemberIn 2007, cyclist Peter Messen – who killed a pedestrian while riding on a pavement in Cornwall at 25mph – escaped with 300 hours of community service.
Thats wrong.
Wasn't he that person who was mentally handicaped and deam as not fully understanding his actions?
"In 2007, cyclist Peter Messen – who killed a pedestrian while riding on a pavement in Cornwall at 25mph – escaped with 300 hours of community service.
Thats wrong."
as far as i can remember he had learning difficulties, and didn't even own the bike.
People are concentrating way too much on the headlines here. Theres always more to it.
in reality we only need one law "don't act like an idiot". Then it would be perfectly possible for people to cycle on pavements.
So how about cheeky trails then?? Whats with cycling on them?
shocking level of third-world driving standards in London?
I always felt London was much safer than the rest of the UK for cycling - there are loads more cyclists on the road so people are expecting them, traffic is almost always going slowly, so you're going the same speed or faster than it, and generally drivers are much less likely just to be completely asleep, because there's enough going on to keep them awake. And I used to commute on the A3, go across Hammersmith Roundabout, Vauxhall, Elephant & Castle etc. which are some of the busiest junctions in London.
If you ride carefully and watch out for what other people are up to, there's no need to be on the pavement in London.
Joe (Commuted in London for 5 years, outside London in Surrey & Nottinghamshire for about 5 years too.)
So how about cheeky trails then?? Whats with cycling on them?
Same rules as on BWs - don't run into people.
This was another case:
- it's not described in the link, but allegedly she'd stepped into the guy's path at the last minute...
i think in the other case (above) the collision *probably* took place on the road, but as all the news reports said she hit her head on the pavement, eveyrone assumed the cyclist was on the pavement.