Cycle touring in the Alps - what constitutes TOO big a day?

When you're not having fun anymore.

Obvs it depends what you are hauling, but I find a lot of it is my mind set,and just getting in 'your zone'.
Old rules for me are start early-finish early and set realistic targets. The nice thing is you (usually) get fitter/more used to it as you go.You are making me think of touring now 😆

When you’re not having fun anymore

Which turns the question into 'How much Alpine climbong can an ambitious amateur reasonably enjoy in a week'?

Suspect it could rapidly turn into another training thread at this rate! 😂

A few years ago I rode the Semnoz one day and the following day the Col Du Telegraphe and Col du Gallibier. I could barely walk the third day.

Those were bloody hard on a light weight road bike with no luggage. Granted my biggest sprocket on the back was a 28t on a standard compact chainset. Not sure I'd want to haul any extra weight at all up those climbs really.

Then again, I am a woose

forget the alps.
fly to Tromso, and have a week exploring Lofoten
then fly back from Bodo.

no bike bag needed with SAS flights.

Hi. Very dependent on weight. 100km and 2000m of climbing is very doable with full panniers for back to back days. Once over that I find it depends on gradient, gearing, fitness and the amount of time you want to be riding for. Some folk love 12 hour days others prefer an early bath.
At least with Torino nice you can bail at tende and get the train

I found 60 miles ok, even with a big col.

But Im not sure I'd spend a whole week in the Alps. I love them but the climb/descent days are hard any it could get monotonous. I've had my best trips mixing mountains with foothills.

I think 110km with 1400m ascent is my biggest day loaded on a touring bike as an unfit mtber. That was on day 6 of an 11 day tour of 1400km/8500m. Felt fine but the 32 degree heat in the valleys killed me.

But this massively (except day 2 which is always shite):

The nice thing is you (usually) get fitter/more used to it as you go.

3 days in the middle of 3365m, 4000m and 3165m

Way too much for me.

I seem to recall that The Fred is seem as a meaty undertaking, that's three Freds consecutively.

Nah

Dont get me wrong. I'm sure there's dozens on here that could do it, and a fair few that would enjoy it.... but I expect them to be in the minority

thats pretty much 3 half-everests back to back. The easy thing to do would figure a local loop that is a half everest and then see much you want to go for a ride the next morning.

That does sound quite brutal unless you’re an absolute machine. I do like doing silly things but that sounds like it’d be an epic challenge rather than a holiday.

That's some good perspective, thanks! Hadn't thought of the Fred comparison.

Have adjusted start/end points and have spread the elevation out, but is maybe still a bit spicy so next step is to add a day and maybe some 'foothills' as Al mentioned 👍

Mate & I did 5 days, 85miles & 2500m per day at your sort of age, kind of did me in but not him, but then he was also happy to team up with Mark Beaumont at the time, so a bit of a machine.

It’s purely down to fitness levels and how long you want to spend riding each day.

We’ve done Geneva to Nice in 6 days, and Biaritz to Girona in 7 days both with 10kg luggage. We were doing between 90 and 130 miles a day with some serious elevation. Couldn’t even consider it now in current form however!

It’s purely down to fitness levels and how long you want to spend riding each day.

totally this. Those days are doable, but will be long. Whether they would be fun depends on you: how much you’ll carry, how much effort you’re willing to put in to self care/faff at the start and end of a day, and what ‘fun’ means to you.

I’ve done several days that big in a row in the past, but always as a supported tour, which is a different thing entirely.

My idea of ‘holiday’ deffo constitutes ‘ challenge’ more than most, so I’d be up for what you have planned, but it would need a lots of time in the bike, both as prep and each day will be long.

We did a Pyrenees tour and did roughly 100k days. That felt pretty manageable and we had enough chill out time in the day. A few years later we did an Alps tour and did lots of back to back days of 130k+ that was doable and didn't bust us but we definitely didn't have much time chilling in campsites!

no bike bag needed with SAS flights.

Not according their website.

Spin
Free Member
no bike bag needed with SAS flights.

Not according their website.

they give you a big clear plastic bag to wheel your bike into. just turn bars and remove pedals.

(touring is a misnomer as I’d be travelling extra light, evening clothes and a toothbrush sort of thing)

Quoting first post just to re-iterate it'll be credit card touring, was a reluctant decision to even take the gravel bike as my ideal trip would basically be a supported road ride, just can't find any doing the routes I want to do!

Could be a fun objective to work towards, learn to pace myself unlike last trip where I emptied myself on first climb of the trip (Col de Sarenne) and never really recovered 🙄

As said, down to individual fitness, but essentially where you wake up to tired and achey to want to do it again. Starting early; steady, what feels easy pace; long, non-boozy lunch. The other option is to make every other day an easier ‘recovery’ day.

Tell some more about yourself weight? how much luggage will you take? FTP or 20 min power.

Do you want to just finish the ride or have time to stop for pictures eat at restaurants during the day and so?

Good would be an idea how many meter you climb an hour on a climb of at least 30 min and that at endurance speed so far from flat out as you will have to do it again and again and again. Are you used to 1 to 2h continious climbing.

I have doen something in that style but a bit harder. At 5k 5k 3,5K 5K 2.5K long days 250k short ones 150. I needed al day to ride quick eat stops and IMO opinion not enough to enjoy the scenery and certainly to take pictures.

Take your 4000m day even if you climb at 650 an hour you spend 6 hour climbing you still need to descend valley time eat enjoy it.

Well in short don't be to ambitious...

Also 100 km + is that 110 or 150 as 150 compared to a hundered will mean close to four hours extra riding for most people.

Tell some more about yourself weight? how much luggage will you take? FTP or 20 min power.

Right now 275W (not accurate, so probably less 😂) and 87.5kg. Would only take a decent run of consistent riding to improve both though. Will be very little luggage, lightweight evening wear, flip flops, toothbrush, book too I guess. Longest day would be 115km, nothing more.

I've never enjoyed long lazy stops during the day, lots of micro stops is my preference, early start, early finish.

Will definitely work at splitting days a bit better. At this rate will have 1.5yrs to prepare, so am willing to work towards a challenging route, but probably not 'epic'.

Sound like you’re fairly fit, travelling light, are happy to do long days on the bike with minimal relaxing time, and you have time to build up to it…so it doesn’t seem unreasonable at all. Will still be a lot of hours in the saddle and it might be sensible to have an option to shorten a day or two in case you’re not feeling it though.

What's your biggest climbing day to date?

Back in '18, when I would have been ~78Kg rather than being ~88Kg currently, one morning in May I got up and spontaneously decided to do my one and only 100 mile ride to date... Taking on many of the relatively tiny South Downs hills between Bishops Waltham; Liss and South Harting.

~9000 feet over 7.5 hours moving time, carrying a ridiculous rucksack of provisions and water, with ~2 hours extra of overkill pit stops absolutely wrecked me!

... Wouldn't even cover the equivalent of 3 Alpe D'Huez -esque climbs iirc.

What’s your biggest climbing day to date?

I think (again, according to Strava elevation figures) it was either the Fred Whitton, or a loop in Mallorca starting in Soller, up Puig Major and down the Sa Calobra, back up and over to Luic, then along and up to Orient, down again then up and over the Col de Soller.

So actually a reasonably good indication, 117km and 2970m. As it was we were absolutely roasting and went chasing PBs on the Sa Calobra so I really suffered at the end although think I was finding a second wind on the final climb. A useful trial run, wouldn't have wanted to do back-to-back days like that!

I think if you're reasonably fit it sounds doable (but definitely hard work) with a lightweight setup. I as ever say this from my own opinion. I haven't ridden rode in Over 10 years but climbing was definitely my thing.

If you are credit card touring & therefore properly lightweight then tbh I don't find that hugely different to riding an unladen bike for the sort of thing you are contemplating.
The key points are:
- Pacing yourself properly (FTP isn't terribly relevant really; it's far more important to have decent stamina and know how to go at a pace you can maintain all day)
- Keeping fuelled and rehydrated. Eat, drink and take breaks before you feel you need to.
- Get a good night's sleep and, again, refuel properly in the evening.
Do all that and you'll be fine.
To put it into context, my mate & I did 11 days back to back in the Pyrenees last October credit card touring (west through Spain, over the Portalet, east through France and back over the Ares). He's in his 60s and whilst not at all quick (as he will be the first to admit), has enough experience to know exactly what pace he can maintain and eats / drinks astonishing amounts.
We did 100km to 140km with 2,000m to 3,000m of climbing each day and he was absolutely fine. Slow. But fine!
In terms of pace, if you assume 20km/h including stops you won't be too far wrong.
If you can be flexible with your route that's really helpful. We only booked a day ahead; each evening I would look in detail at the weather forecast & amend the route as necessary (e.g. we bailed on the Core, Latrape, Agnes and Lers due to weather and instead did a bunch of cols further north).

The trick to touring is to start up slow.

In 2017 we rode up Vancouver Island and the across BC to the Rockies and down the Rockies.rode my self back fit after a shitty period at work

Day 1 was 60k day two 50
...
From then on it was 100-160k a day and even then heading for McBride we managed 30+kph for am hour fully laden 4 panniers and tent to hit the only shop before closing. By the time we got to the Rockies they really were child's play

Years ago I did a CyclingUK (CTC) tour of the Dolomites.

One pass a day was considered to be doable on a group tour. Tour leader said they'd tried two but it wiped the group.
This was carrying luggage. A lot of the group paid for a taxi to take half their luggage ahead for them as they couldn't cope.
So - going solo I'd be alternating single and double-pass days.

No idea what an FTP was back then but I could ride 200 miles in a day on Scottish Audaxes.

I suspect FTP isn't the most important metric anyway, hours @ Z2 probably is!

Revised my route by chopping out the 'eyes bigger than my stomach' visit to Bourg/Croix de Fer/Telegraph/Galibier, but now it seems too short! 😂 Just need to book some extra fancy hotels for the end of each day so I can relax in style 😎

Bonus feature is I could finish in Nice, meet family, recover for a day then do the classic Col d'Eze/Col de la Madone loop with fresh legs and no luggage, would feel amazing!

Anyway, all nice pipedreams, thanks all for helping me calibrate my expectations a bit 😁

7 days for the TNR is easily doable with not much luggage as a pleasure rather than an ordeal.

I have done it a few times and about 100 km a day with the rsulting climb per day is about right.

This is worth a look if you want some inspiration. Incorporates a few of the classic cols so good for bragging rights. I think I'm going to do a flip flop tour of it later thus year once the cols have cleared.

Route des Grande Alpes

I wouldn't put too much weight in the Fred comparison. Long steady alpine climbs are very different to the brutal gradients you get on the Fred. Personally I find it much easier to clock up massive elevation gains in the Alps... provided it's not too hot.

'How much Alpine climbong can an ambitious amateur reasonably enjoy in a week’?

It can be measured with a piece of string : )
Ime.. just be adaptable in your plans. You have all day to ride X000m but you'll also take a couple of days or more to acclimatise. Have short cuts and longer options in mind and just ride, see how it goes.
Timf is right on the TNR.

For me the question is how ready you are for the inevitable first Col feeling when you suddenly remember how much harder this is than you recall. I live in between Quantocks and Exmoor and can find a nice blend of 15 min savagery and 35-40 min steady climbs to help prepare and it still always feels a shock to me when you realise you have more than an hour at no less than 8% gradient ahead of you

more than an hour at no less than 8% gradient ahead of you

Longest climb I can find (conveniently local) is 10km & 750m elevation, mostly steep gravel I think. Have been avoiding it until now but one for the summer months perhaps!

Lol! In fact I've just realised my local Munro has tarmac then land rover track almost all the way to the top, or a longer more gradual track sidehilling all the way round to about 650m but bumping distance up and av. gradient down. Could make for some lovely summer's evening practice rides 😎

I usually spend a couple of weeks in the Alps every year and last year rode down to Nice taking in a lot of the big cols. The big difference after lockdowns seems to be a complete infestation of motorbikes and sports cars touring the Alps. Routes like Telegraphe, Galibier and Bonnette were horrendous. Endless streams of really loud sports bikes. Weekends are terrible but even mid-weeks we're pretty bad - and that was early June. Talking to other riders en-route they all agreed that it's got a lot worse since Covid. On future trips I'll be planning much quieter routes over the lesser-known cols and riding gravel wherever possible.

and riding gravel wherever possible.

From what I've seen, riding gravel doesn't necessarily offer an escape, lots of 4x4s and motorbikes also!

Maybe another argument for risking the Norwegian weather (and cuisine, and coffee, and expensive beer 🙄)

I did 4 days in the Maurienne valley a few years ago, find riding alpine cols easier than riding hilly UK terrain. Pretty easy to just get into your rhythm and stay there for a couple of hours, then have a break at the top to take in the views. Most of the Cols are a pretty regular gradient, roads are engineered not to go much over 10% at any point. My rule of thumb for route planning was to account for an hour per 10km of climbing which worked well - similar weight and ~FTP to you. You just don't really need to go 'into the red' at any point.

Telegraph & Galbier was harder than other days - could have been that we did it on day 1, could have been the steeper gradients, altitude and clocking up nearly 3000m climbing.

I think it would help if you know whether you ride into fitness or not. Occassions where I've done back to back days I generally find it gets easier, however my riding mate seems to go the other way. By day four of my Alps trip Col de Madeleine felt like a breeze.

Would echo points about cars. Telegraph/Galibier was really busy, lots of throbbers in sports cars although the view from the top and sense of achievement was amazing, as was watching the TdF go over it last year so I'd still recommend it. In contrast Col du Chaussy, Glandon etc were basically deserted.

I guess there's no 'peak' season for busy roads as throbbers in sports cars are unlikely to be on their school holidays? 🙄

The only bit of the TNR route that sees some sport cars in September (July/August is different) the Izoard, but it's only a few. The rest is pretty quiet, a few touring motorbikes and 4x4s on the stradas but nothing I'd call busy. Not compared to a Swiss col on a Saturday.