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I have been commuting by bike to work for a good few months now. I am lucky enough to have around 80% of my journey on cycle paths. These are generally pretty good and a much safer option than being on the road.
The thing i occasionally struggle with is other cycle lane users.
In my mind, i treat them very much like roads. I generally stay to the left. I ring my bell if over taking and slow down for walkers or those who i think are a bit unpredictable. I would say i am pretty courteous.
What i struggle with is those who don't see them as mini roads. When i see a rider coming towards me, i stake my claim of the left early and stick to it. The number of people that continue to ride head on towards me is sometimes staggering. A woman this morning pulled out of our game of chicken at the last gasp, despite me being as far left as i could be.
But then it dawned on me.... maybe my 'common sense' isn't that common. or filled with much sense?!
After briefly browsing the highway code, i cant see any mention of cycle path rules about positioning.
Therefore.... am i the one expecting too much? Using the wrong theories? Should i just stick to the middle and hope for the best?!
Your thoughts, feedback and experiences are welcome!
I applaud your resolution with sticking left. Please keep it up. Treat it as if you were training a very stupid dog: consistency and firmness.
I find the same but I wouldn't worry about it. Just stick to the left where possible and be prepared to stop. In theory they should be better than roads but you tend to get random people on them wandering all over the place it makes it difficult to know what people are going to do!
I do the same, stick left and force anyone off the path if they try and out chicken me!
The problem we have in Cambridge is 1000s of foreign students who, I assume, are used to riding on the right....
I find shouting 'on the f***ing left' often helps (probably not, but makes me feel better).
This is STW so I expect there will be a strong push to the left, and anyone who suggests the right will be condemned.
IME there is no consensus on usage - I try to use them like a road but as you say, sometimes other users mean that a more flexible approach is needed.
Once released from the tyranny of the road many, if not most, people revel in the freedom of riding on the right. I continuously experience this on the trails of Cannock Chase and I'm convinced that the popularity of closed road events like Ride London is purely down to the willingness of riders to pay hundreds of pounds for the experience of going round roundabouts the wrong way.
The best one is the dog walkers who walk on the right but their dog walks on the left with the extendable lead across the whole width of the path 🙂
I think you're correct, it's what I do too. Generally on my commute this is the most uncommon issue though as mine are mainly shared paths. The local hire and non-hire e-scooters are more of a problem for weaving about and large gangs of dog walkers spread out all over the place, albeit they are all friendly.
Smile and say hi. it's the only way.
The best one is the dog walkers who walk on the right but their dog walks on the left with the extendable lead across the whole width of the path
My personal favourite is when you have pedestrians walking right and left sides of the path, that then both cross to the other side when they hear my bell. Which then leads to mild panic as they choose which side, (or middle) to pick. It's like watching some rubbish Scottish country dancing unfolding in from of me. 😁
People see cycelpaths differently. Some see them as cycle based roads, some see them as general use footpaths, some as race courses. So it's a bit of a mess. That's why I rarely use them.
yep, it's a free-for-all!! When I was commuting regularly, I always stuck doggedly to the left though, [I]most[/I] people got the idea (although I'd move over for runners).After briefly browsing the highway code, i cant see any mention of cycle path rules about positioning.
My most memorable incident was when some old boy coming the other way took the corner a bit wide, so I moved over to the right thinking I was doing him a favour & giving him more room. Nope, he swung back to the left & played chicken with me 😃 We both stopped and he immediately started angrily berating me, "are you foreign?!" - the implication being that I had come from a place where you drive on the right 🙄🤣 We ended up having a long chat about the various places we'd been on bikes & he told me all about his racing days when he was younger. 😃
I default to the left but would move right rather than play chicken. Its not a road so needs more flexibility.
Middle is a rubbish option though.
I default to the left but would move right rather than play chicken. Its not a road so needs more flexibility.
No, utter bollocks ( it doesn't need ****ing flexibility) that's where the problems arise. It just needs people to ride on the left, end of.
This idea that we can just ad hoc it is completely toss.
Cycle on the left.
They aren't roads and there are no rules to say which side you should ride on. Maybe you're encountering sailors? They will always pass port side to port side when approaching head on for instance.
Cycle on the left.
Who put you in charge?
@v7fmp - Did you ever ride on the cycle path on the seafront in front of Brooklands (between lancing and worthing)?
Honestly...that stretch of green tarmac is a vacuum of common cycle sense!!!
People walking in the path... cyclists treating it like a joust - barely moving across or sticking religiously in the cycle lane when they could MAYBE POSSIBLY cross into the patch for a split second... don't forget the stones blown on from the beach!
It's safer sticking in the road!!
DrP
If you ever see a proper-width cycle path with Give Way lines then they'll be on the left side of the cycle lane. I think that pretty much seals it.
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Middle is a rubbish option though.
Christ on a bike!!!!! Are we denigrating centrists again 😉
Sailors! 😁
Sensible suggestion, maybe some equate it more to walking than driving, when the best course of action* is to walk on the same side as oncoming traffic where there's no footpath.
*I know that's very generic advice and needs to meet the local circumstances.
Sorry to rain on your parade, but yes, it is wrong. In fact , whatever you do will be wrong to someone, or everyone, and many of them will let you know, verbally, and often quite aggressively. Hope this helps.
No, utter bollocks ( it doesn’t need **** flexibility) that’s where the problems arise. It just needs people to ride on the left, end of.
You sound more like a Specificist than a Generalist.
I try and stick to the left when dealing with oncoming cyclists. But for walkers and runners I am less “persuasive” with my cycling - after all, by sticking to their right they are channeling the Highway Code advice on walking your on highways and although a cycle path isn’t one, from their point of view we are wheeled objects approaching at speed.
Certainly with other cyclists I stick to the left and expect them to. Pedestrians, dog walkers, who knows? Just go with the flow.
You are doing it correctly. Its how the rest of europe do it. You ride on the same side as you would on the road and treat overtaking in the same way
This idea that we can just ad hoc it is completely toss.
Cool. Get the law passed then to enforce it. Oh and then get people in place to enforce it.
Until you do so then it is adhoc especially on shared paths.
You seem rather close in position to those nutter drivers who close pass cyclists because the cyclist had the cheek to filter past stationary traffic and, in the drivers eyes, that violates the highway code.
Similar off road commute. Most of it I see no-one but I've a 3 mile section on the Fallowfield Loop - shared use old railway.
Most cyclists are sticking to the left other than a small section around Fallowfield it's self, where it's near a supermarket and student accommodation, so it's a bit of a free for all - loads of folk, so walking pace. It is like the M1 for bikes though.
You get the odd wobbly bob or kid that needs reminding, and a ding of the bell. Many years back, went to overtake a 'wobbly bob' and they literally wobbled from the left to the right - I ended up off-roading on the grass on 23mm tyres - a sharp 'ride in a straight line' was shouted.
It's going to be lumens wars soon - folk not aiming their lights down, so you either end up blind, or you've got to out lumen them. I've some 'dipped' beam lights arriving soon, mainly so I can run a high brightness in the dark and see the path, without blinding anyone, and so I can still see where I am someone has a 'blinder' light.
You still need something bright as it's unlit, and pedestrians and dogs don't come with reflectors.
There are signs up on my local path saying ‘keep left’ so it’s pretty unambiguous (although not legally enforceable). I tend to point at the oncoming moron, then point to the left & yell KEEP LEFT!!!! Seems to work.
My experience in Central London is that most of the people riding on the right:
1. Have never driven a car or paid attention to Highway Code.
2. Are from countries where you drive on the right but have never driven or paid much attention to the UK Highway Code. They are relying on muscle memory from childhood after starting to ride again in later life.
3. Plain stupid / just started cycling under Covid.
Something has definitely happened over the last few weeks though. It's like London cyclists have got much worse with cold and darkness to the point I'm having more close calls with other cyclists than cars. Don't get me started on those dropping phones, lights or other things into road, leaving bike in middle of cycle lane and randomly walking into traffic to retrieve without looking.
I approach it much like I used to with my sisters when I was about 6.
I spin my arms around windmill style and shout, 'I'm just spinning my arms around and walking (cycling) forwards. If you don't move out of my way and get punched it's your fault'
You can add a 'so Nnneerrr' for gravitas if you like.
Cool. Get the law passed then to enforce it. Oh and then get people in place to enforce it.
Until you do so then it is adhoc especially on shared paths.You seem rather close in position to those nutter drivers who close pass cyclists because the cyclist had the cheek to filter past stationary traffic and, in the drivers eyes, that violates the highway code.
As per the thread title. It’s etiquette not law. & it’s an etiquette that means riding on the path is much safer, more convenient & less hassle for everyone. Why be a dick about it?
A wonderful spread of sensible and spicy replies... just what i was after to lighten up a monday morning 😀
@DrP - i know the stretch you speak of. I dont use it often... luckily by the sounds of it. I do remember the stones tho... quite the treat when on skinny road tyres!
@kayak23 - sensational stuff. i will attempt this next time i am front wheel to front wheel with a buffoon!
I find the same but I wouldn’t worry about it. Just stick to the left where possible and be prepared to stop
Same here - common sense isn't that common and a note in the Highway Code, national guidelines, Bikeability etc is needed just to try and get everyone to stick to the left wherever possible.
But assume some people are idiots and ride on the road if its less stressful.
As per the thread title. It’s etiquette not law.
Precisely. Its etiquette not law so treating it as the latter is deeply flawed and likely to end in tears at some stage.
It makes sense, to me, to ride on the left but clearly not to all and in those cases you need to be sensible about how to handle it rather than strapping on the body armour to ensure you come out best if you both lose the game of chicken.
It’s going to be lumens wars soon...
Oh blimey yes. 🤬 That an the Ninja dog walkers, although TBF they've actually got a bit better the last couple of winters.
ride on the cycle path on the seafront...
Seafront town planners must be competing for Stupidist Cycling Infrastructure awards or something.
Southsea is amazing. Yes, the path is marked for each direction on the left. But, the path is about 11inches wide with a line down the middle. Also, it's on the BEACH side of the parking area (inside the dashes here), so doors opening, pushchairs being loaded, people generally dawdling out of their cars... It's genius.
Yes it's one of those things that really grates on me, I'll often chunter once I've gone past people about how we drive on the left so why can't we ride the same. I do, however, hog the left but look at them and know if they will cave or not and I'll just move other rather than have to face stopping or crashing, especially when a crash results in the canal dip!
I also find it happens when walking on pavements too and annoys me even further! I train my dog to walk on my left so that he/she can pass people with dogs easily as pavements arent play zones and people in general without becoming distracted and to save people who may have an aversion to dogs having to pass by them. When people then ignore that obvious passing rule that I've made up in my head I get very annoyed!! In that situation I keep my head down and avoid eye contact and then people think 'oh she hasn't seen me ill move over'. Doesnt work so well when the other person you may be walking with is oblivious to the rule too and they waver all over the place, cue me having to repeat 'pass on the left' to said person!
Try riding a bike on Dublin cycle paths for more than a week - its like the wild west here....
That Southsea path - also don't like those little refuges that are perfectly camouflaged with the road. They need a marker wand on either end of them!
also don’t like those little refuges that are perfectly camouflaged with the road
Oh yes! My 80+ y.o. mum got taken out by one of those (she rides the seafront a lot)... (but then she was probably drunk 😆 )
Used to have the same issue when I used to commute into the middle of Bristol (pretty-much) all on traffic-free paths. The Bristol-Bath Railway Path was the busiest in the country, IIRC. Unfortunately there are no rules for their usage, but Sustrans (for whom I used to work when I commuted onto Briz) do issue 'guide lines' - but which no one seems to know about. Always baffles me why no one ever installs some basic signage on traffic-free paths about how best to use them: 'Keep left'. 'Keep dogs on leads'. 'Pick up after your dog'. 'Don't speed'. 'Look ahead'. 'Cyclists: ring your bell to warn of your presence'. 'Respect other users'. 'Don't cause obstructions' etc.
I had SO MANY run-ins with other users who had no idea about their or other's safety: Joggers who'd be jogging towards me on the RH side while staring at their watch/phone.... groups walking 4-abreast... people who stop to chat in the middle of the path... free-range dogs... unrestricted e-bikes and e-scooters overtaking without warning... cyclists drafting... cyclists with red lights on the FRONT of their bikes... cyclists with 10,000 lumen main-beams not pointing downwards on unlit stretches...
I never came to blows with anyone or actually crashed, but by god there are some inconsiderate, ignorant pr!cks out there.
I think you need to reset your expectations. The vast majority will ride on the left in my experience, but I guess some people see it only as a path and nothing more. Many of those people probably don't drive. Some may be children who have no real concept of the rules of the road. You can usually tell from a long way out if somebody is going to commit to the right. If there are other people around to confuse the situation further then I might give them some time to rethink as I slow down, otherwise it's easier to move over to the right. Providing you slow down to a pace that facilitates good decision making for all involved, it's rarely ever a problem. Smile and say Hello on the way past.
From reading all the above I think there are far more important things to get angry and upset about. Sometimes on cycle paths I like to get some speed up but the thought that slows me to a crawl is “that could be you in front”. I’m quite often in my own little world when out walking - I might suddenly spot an unusual bird, a butterfly or a flower I don’t recognise and will lurch across the path for a better view - I’m often not aware of a bicycle bearing down on me to better the Strava segment for that stretch!
Shouting, swearing, muttering doesn’t help anyone. Be nice, say Hi! (I think I’ve heard that on here somewhere before!)
I had SO MANY run-ins with other users who had no idea about their or other’s safety: Joggers who’d be jogging towards me on the RH side while staring at their watch/phone…. groups walking 4-abreast… people who stop to chat in the middle of the path… free-range dogs…
I just think that shared used paths (pedestrians and cyclists) don't work unless there are segregated lanes and even then people just meander between the two.
I prefer roads for this reason. Cycle paths are a nightmare, I have seen more accidents due to dribbly cyclists, iPeds/iZombies, dog walkers etc.
Shared use paths are simply proof that people's willful ignorance of those around them is directly proportional to the level of danger they feel.
It's not that cars magically make people en masse selfish pillocks with no regard for others, it's that they magically make cyclists and pedestrians aware of what's going on around them.
Fear is a wonderful thing. If you want to prove this op, don a hoodie, put double crown forks on your commuter and swig monster* whilst playing something offensive loudly from your mobile phones crappy speaker and see just how quickly everyone gives you space and stays left.
*other brands of ASBO fuel are available.
I just think that shared used paths (pedestrians and cyclists) don’t work unless there are segregated lanes and even then people just meander between the two.
If the cyclist is wanting to get somewhere at a semidecent speed then yes they generally dont work well but for someone who doesnt cycle a lot going out with their kids etc I think its okay.
Basically commuting/riding in a hurry then use the roads but for pootles/warming up whilst riding out to the tails/crap I forgot my lights and its getting dark they work nicely.
Whatever the theory, may cycle paths have a bubbling undercurrent of anarchy and it's best to approach them with a chilled, flexible attitude and be prepared to slow down / stop / ride off the side of the path as appropriate to ensure your survival. It's a bit like riding a motorcycle on the road, it doesn't matter if you were 'in the right' if you're buried in the side of a car with multiple broken limbs.
My top cycle path horror is the once that runs past the parking on the A57 at Ladybower where cyclists are supposed to ride next to the parked cars making a perfect recipe for being car-doored. I just refuse to do it.
Just do what you must to stay in one piece is my advice.
I just think that shared used paths (pedestrians and cyclists) don’t work unless there are segregated lanes
my favourite are the ones where there is a wide path with a clear, slightly raised white line down the centre.
sometimes it is a "keep left" centre line. Other times it is bikes to one side, pedestrians to the other.
the bonus is that is sometimes communicated by very worn out paint on the path surface, sometimes by raised blue signs. sometimes neither (or worn, obscured or missing), sometimes contradictory.
Agree with the 'keep left and don't be a pillock' around cycle paths.
However, I remind us all that the ability to ride or licence to drive a car has no intelligence test or common sense test built in. Therefore half the people you are sharing the cycle route or road with are below average intelligence.....
.
This was beautifully demonstrated by the Focus RS driver who barrelled through the red light's behind me at the t-junction, then floored it in the 20 zone with shitty cycle infrastructure, to get ahead of me on my bike, only to barely get by and slam on for the mini-roundabout we were approaching, so causing me to brake hard. He did not look as he jumped the red light at way more than 20.
If he had looked he would have noted that the vehicle coming was a) slow to set off and b) a police van setting off from the police station a few hundred metres away. I did of course smile and wave as I overtook the police and now pulled car...
The problem with not riding in a shared path where it's parallel to the road is the abuse you get from motorists. There's a pavement cycle path along the seafront near me (between Hove and Portslade) that I don't use if I've got a tailwind or I'm in a hurry. Drivers are generally pretty good elsewhere but on that bit I get the occasional punishment pass and apoplectic use-the-cycle-path gesture.
I had my worst cycle accident on the cycle lane through the park. I was riding home from work as someone else on a bike was meandering all over the cycle lane avoiding the puddles. I pulled out to ride past them and hit someone coming the other way on a bike. We were both unsighted and didn't have any time to brake or swerve.
I had quite a lot of bruising where I slid forwards until I hit the back of the stem and a black eye and cut on my face.
The other person hit, thought she had hit her head on the ground but I think it was her helmet hitting me in the face.
The frame and forks on my bike were bent.
So be careful on cycle lanes.
I slid forwards until I hit the back of the stem and a black eye
which eye was black?
Let's be honest - most of the anecdotes here stem from really poor infrastructure.
The 'numpties ride bikes and drive cars' issue can be resolved through better infrastructure design, build and maintenance.
I’m quite often in my own little world when out walking – I might suddenly spot an unusual bird, a butterfly or a flower I don’t recognise and will lurch across the path for a better view – I’m often not aware of a bicycle bearing down on me to better the Strava segment for that stretch!
I think there are probably two types of people out in the wild - the ones who behave like this ^, and the ones who wonder why the above are allowed out without supervision.
So be careful on cycle lanes.
...
I pulled out to ride past them and hit someone coming the other way on a bike. We were both unsighted and didn’t have any time to brake or swerve.
And this, folks, is how people get killed on roads.
If you can't see don't go. It's not rocket science, it's barely above 1+1=2.
It's also nothing, at all, to do with being on a cycle path beyond the fact you both managed to walk away.
I used shared use paths a lot and don't often have these issues many of you seem to face all the time. Pwerhaps ITS THE BELL! Get a bloody bell. It really helps
You can't see if you don't ease out to look and the bang. It wasn't a narrow path but if some can't ride a bike straight you have to have a look.
It's all simple sitting at your keyboard. Life isn't.
You can’t see if you don’t ease out to look and the bang.
Then don't ease out. There is no obligation on you to over take.
It wasn’t a narrow path but if some can’t ride a bike straight you have to have a look.
No you don't, if you can't see well enough ease back, leave space and wait.
You'll also find that, from 20m back, your (and that of oncomming traffic) sight line is better and your (and that of oncomming traffic) available reaction time is increased.
It’s all simple sitting at your keyboard. Life isn’t.
Sometimes life is. "I can't see but I'll chance it" really is one of those times.
@V7fmp - People being people! DOn't expect anything and you wont be disappointed!! 😀 The general public are clueless.
I've noticed these ultra bright LED lights are everywhere now its gone dark, but rather than point the lamp at the floor they are always pointing at eye height and are bloody blinding!
You have your opinion, mine perception is different.
You have your opinion, mine perception is different.
Sounds like you needed more perception just before that crash. 😀
You have your opinion, mine perception is different.
You couldn't see.
You pulled out.
You [s] caused an accident. [/s] rode into an oncoming cyclist.
There's not much room for perception or opinion on that.
Had you done that in a car you would have been very likely to have done more than bend the frame and forks of your bike.
I'm very sorry if you don't want to hear it but your opinion is downright dangerous and kills thousands every year.
The one I really don't get on cycle paths is when there is a lined lane on the left hand side of the carriageway why on earth would you even try to cycle the opposite way to the oncoming cars and bikes!
One road I regularly use is a nightmare for this despite quite nice wide lanes on the left hand side in both directions! For full effect no lights in the dark whilst cycling the wrong way wins.
I'm trained to deliver Bikeability. The question came up at my training. The answer is that there is no directive to ride on the left unless the cycleway is marked and that more often than not will be for a cycle / pedestrian split not two way cycle traffic.
One road I regularly use is a nightmare for this despite quite nice wide lanes on the left hand side in both directions!
How busy is the road? Might be an arse to cross over at the point someone wants to.
Ah Bristol-Bath Railway Park, now there's always a good giggle to be had reading the Bristol & Bath Railway Path - OnePath FB page on this.
When walking on the path should I keep left, or keep right?
So which Side would you walk on then 🙂
When walking on the path should I keep left, or keep right?
When walking left right left right left.
Otherwise it's hopping isn't it
I’m quite often in my own little world when out walking – I might suddenly spot an unusual bird, a butterfly or a flower I don’t recognise and will lurch across the path for a better view – I’m often not aware of a bicycle bearing down on me to better the Strava segment for that stretch!
I think there are probably two types of people out in the wild – the ones who behave like this ^, and the ones who wonder why the above are allowed out without supervision.
Wheres that like button 🙂
It the one thing I find weird is this lack of spacial awareness, I did wonder if its a driver thing that walkerists don't get as they don't get driving lessons.
It the one thing I find weird is this lack of spacial awareness, I did wonder if its a driver thing that walkerists don’t get as they don’t get driving lessons.
not necessarily. could just be a mental separation. for them, wondering around a multiuse path, their brain just switches off.
I know a handful of (mountain) bikers who are an absolute liability riding bikes on the road. yet very safe and correct when in their car.
If you ever see a proper-width cycle path with Give Way lines then they’ll be on the left side of the cycle lane. I think that pretty much seals it.
Sure, but most cycle paths aren't like that and most are shared use. Whilst I always keep left on the bike, I don't think it's necessarily reasonable for pedestrians to behave as if they're traffic. As a general rule, if I want to ride quickly, I use the road.
One road I regularly use is a nightmare for this despite quite nice wide lanes on the left hand side in both directions!
How busy is the road? Might be an arse to cross over at the point someone wants to.
The lane isn't wide enough to pass in and leaves you with the choice of both bikes stop or one moves out into the passing cars. It's the wrong side of the road and asking for a crash.
Not quite as scary as the drug dealers on quad bikes though. I generally accept that they have right of way on the cycle paths as rules are obviously not their thing.
I’m quite often in my own little world when out walking – I might suddenly spot an unusual bird, a butterfly or a flower I don’t recognise and will lurch across the path for a better view – I’m often not aware of a bicycle bearing down on me to better the Strava segment for that stretch!
I think there are probably two types of people out in the wild – the ones who behave like this ^, and the ones who wonder why the above are allowed out without supervision.
Needs more recognition.
The answer is that there is no directive to ride on the left unless the cycleway is marked and that more often than not will be for a cycle / pedestrian split not two way cycle traffic.
Ah yes, here is our 'quality' local cycle lane provision.
Please note the 'A9' designation.
Please note the two cycle lanes.
Both are bi-directional and of course shared with pedestrians.
.
As you can tell, the markings, separation, safety when having to cross the road, dropped kerbs, width so that two users can pass safely without having to go into the traffic lane are in line with general good practice around cycle infrastructure.
.
There is a good reason that most mornings I follow other cyclists not using the infrastructure so thoughtfully provided, and why in an evening I choose the 130m climb over the Glen Road instead.
I usually treat them the same as roads, in that I treat everybody as a f***ing idiot that's out to get me, and treat myself like i'm invisible. All the rules, regulations, signs and markings are pretty much pointless if nobody reads them or takes notice of them.Oh, and always give way rather than get involved in an accident.
I sort of like the anarchy of shared paths, I think the way forward is just to accept that "something" is likely to happen, and as long as one party (normally me) is paying sufficient attention it'll mostly be OK and sort itself out.
It's the same with pedestrians who 4 abreast fill the cycle path completely and as you slow down and pull to one side to pass they all just stay exactly where they were and stare at you as if they have no idea what to do 🤷♂️
Then there are those walking on cycle paths or bridleways in beautiful countryside, birds are singing, cows munching grass, the wind is whispering through the leaves....but they are wearing headphones and walking head down staring at a phone and it's the cyclists fault that they jump a foot in the air as you eventually find a section wide enough to pass after ringing a bell, asking politely and even resort to buying a hope hub to announce your approach
I generally keep left, just 'cos I got so annoyed with the chaos and confusion of not having any 'rules'. The only exception are towpaths, where I try to ride on the 'water' side - my reasoning being that 1/2 the handlebar will hang over the canal on narrow sections.
My top cycle path horror is the once that runs past the parking on the A57 at Ladybower where cyclists are supposed to ride next to the parked cars making a perfect recipe for being car-doored. I just refuse to do it.
Though it's usually full of open car doors and folk faffing about so it'a better to ride in the pedestrian bit.
Get a bell and use it properly - takes away almost all the shared path pain. FFS guys - its not hard