Cycle commute - employers duty of care

I don’t like some of the crap bikes that people ride to my work 🤷‍♂️

If they are illegal let the police know?

Or really radical, if you work with these people, talk to them

What would you expect your employer to actually do about it?

Maybe ask the question about company attitude to cars being on company property that would be illegal on the highway?

What would you expect your employer to actually do about it?

I'd assume the OP was thinking the company shouldn't be allowing illegal vehicles on site?

An email circular something along the lines of

"It has come to our attention that a number of employees appear to be commuting to work on unregistered electric motorbikes and securing these on company property. We would like to remind employees that these modes of transport are not legal and we cannot condone this by allowing them to be stored on our grounds.

If it comes to our attention that employees are breaking road traffic laws on the way to work we would have no choice but to contact the police, and use of company property to facilitate illegal actions could be considered a disciplinary matter."

Then give it a couple of weeks and speak to those who are still insisting on carrying on.

That would be reasonable right?

What would you expect your employer to actually do about it?

They could prohibit the use of non standard ebikes on site. We're not allowed to ride bikes at work, even though it's a large site other than from the gatehouse to the bikeshed at start/finish time, so some might consider it unfair or a PITA, but it can be done.

You also expecting them to check every car/van is also legal?

A far, far greater risk IMO.

This is what I’d do as a way of possibly forcing their hand. Go and see the head of HR, or the HR person for your dept. if it’s a big company, explain the situation as you see it, and ask their advice on whether you should contact the police or whether they should. They may be unaware of issue and prefer to handle it themselves before involving the police, but you’ve brought it to their attention and put it on record.

TBH, if they are illegal/modified e-bikes, how many of them are sufficiently dodgy that they are a fire risk from their gaffer tapped batteries and exposed wiring?

How happy would your site safety guys be with half the site going up in smoke?

(We're not allowed e-bikes or e-bike batteries on site/in the bike storage without a safety check and a sticker.)

You also expecting them to check every car/van is also legal?

A far, far greater risk IMO.

No, that would be nigh on impossible. However I can make it quite obvious to them which bikes are illegal, they stand out a mile compared to the normal stuff that's parked up. And although you can't tell by looking at them if they're derestricted, when I'm getting overtaken at 40 mph by someone not pedalling, whilst smoking a vape or playing with his phone I'd say that's pretty conclusive proof.

What really annoys me is the cycle path was put in at considerable expense to encourage pedestrians and cyclists and keep them safe. If its now getting used by what are basically motorbikes then it's pretty much a road.

I'd certainly be asking the employer how they stand on the issue.

My main issue is that people who ride illegal ebikes like bellends give all cyclists a bad name. Legal ebikes should be reshaping urban transport and commuting, that needs supporting.

Ask whoever does your PAT testing to certify them the next time they do the rounds.

I wasn’t allowed to plug my Nespresso machine on my desk in until it was tested at work (yes I know, probably should be in the middle class problems thread).

Certainly an issue that needs action, it's getting to be a bit wild west out there at the moment & media only seem interested in deaths when police are seemingly trying to put a stop to it ☹️

Ask whoever does your PAT testing to certify them the next time they do the rounds.

PAT testing doesn't cover low voltage stuff, which pretty much excludes anything battery powered. They'd need to be charging at work for this to be an issue.

And although you can’t tell by looking at them if they’re derestricted, when I’m getting overtaken at 40 mph by someone not pedalling, whilst smoking a vape or playing with his phone I’d say that’s pretty conclusive proof.

And therein lies the problem, if YOU can't tell just by looking how is anyone else supposed to? Or do you expect to just be taken at your word?

And therein lies the problem, if YOU can’t tell just by looking how is anyone else supposed to? Or do you expect to just be taken at your word?

I'd expect first step is a company wide email stating there's going to be a clampdown. Next would be getting police involved, all they'd need to do is hang around about twenty minutes at the various shift start and finish times, it's really obvious which bikes are illegal once they start moving. Next step would be names taken and passed to the company - the compound is only accessible if your site pass is enabled so it's easy to block access. Then a written warning for riding illegal bikes on site, caught again you're out the door.

Or, we just keep on ignoring this, accept these bikes are now part of the traffic and that there are inevitably going to be accidents. They're becoming more high profile now the scroats are generating darwin awards on them, get used to them, they're coming to a trail near you very soon.

PAT testing doesn’t cover low voltage stuff, which pretty much excludes anything battery powered. They’d need to be charging at work for this to be an issue.

You can 'test' the appliance as well as the power supply/charger. It's become a bit more applicable recently with the introduction of functional earths. But yes, fundamentally unless it's charged at work then it won't be applicable.

The slight issue might be that they aren't illegal per se. They are illegal for use on the road. Private land, like a workplace, can have whatever rules they like. The path may also have its own rules, especially if it isn't immediately adjacent to a highway.

Thread title is a bit misleading - not sure it's an employers duty of care issue, more a general duty to report crime.

Or really radical, if you work with these people, talk to them

What would be the point in that...

OP: " excuse me you're riding an illegal vehicle dangerously on a path designed for bikes and peds
C: "yep"
OP" please don't"
C" whatevs"
OP" but it's illegal"
C:"but fast and convenient for me"
OP: "but it's dangerous for other people"
C: " whatever. It's best for me"
OP" I'll have to report you to the police/ company"
C" by the way, how are the kids?"

You also expecting them to check every car/van is also legal?

Annually I supply a copy of my MOT, insurance and license to my employer who reimburses my mileage.

Now this is clearly different from the commute.

I agree a gentle approach with a 'company doesn't condone, you should not be storing any illegal vehicle on site', but I would also approach police in OP shoes.

OP” I’ll have to report you to the police/ company”
C” by the way, how are the kids?”

Not sure where you work but threatening people is usually gross misconduct.

Mmmm, indeed.
And stealing from people's houses is illegal.
As is speeding
And lying to parliament.
And invading other countries
etc

Kudos and respect to the OP if he does go down this route but.....

I’d expect first step is a company wide email stating there’s going to be a clampdown. Next would be getting police involved, all they’d need to do is hang around about twenty minutes at the various shift start and finish times, it’s really obvious which bikes are illegal once they start moving. Next step would be names taken and passed to the company – the compound is only accessible if your site pass is enabled so it’s easy to block access. Then a written warning for riding illegal bikes on site, caught again you’re out the door.

🤣 Aye, right ye are.

Meanwhile in reality 2023 UK...

You think police are going to hang about to catch people riding bikes* too fast when they're already under resourced and can't even attend burglaries?

Secondly, you do know it's possible to ride a derestricted ebike slowly don't you? It's not a digital on/off thing.

Finally who is going to take the names? The non-existent police or some staff member that doesn't know what the hell an ebike looks like never mind what is or isn't kosher?

Good luck, be sure to let us know how you (predictably) get on with all that.

* lets not start the whole motorbike/e-bike debate, just say what you see.

Our site, a large factory with offices accessed via a perimeter road has ruled that electric scooters cant be ridden on site and must be pushed. Thats something under their control and its obvious to the gatehouse security staff what an elec scooter looks like. This is the wording of the announcement put out :

"All site traffic must comply with the rules of the road as set out within the Highway Code. Site speed
limits and road rules (such as stop, give way and one-way routes) must always be followed.
The rules apply to all vehicles including, where allowed on internal roads, pedal cycles. None of the
facilities fall within a trial area for E-Scooters and as such the use of E-Scooters on any site are
prohibited."

If it comes to our attention that employees are breaking road traffic laws on the way to work we would have no choice but to contact the police, and use of company property to facilitate illegal actions could be considered a disciplinary matter.”

What happens when someone breaks a speed limit in their car and gets a speeding fine. Do they get sacked?

The only really concern that I could see that they would have is that the bikes doo not meet UK standards and therefore are they a fire hazard on their property?

Not sure where you work but threatening people is usually gross misconduct.

I don't think there's a snitches get stitches fired clause in most employee handbooks.

FWIW if it was a workplace that actually took H&S properly seriously (rather than just an over zealous high vis, risk assessment and rubbish reporting metrics) I'd expect them to do something about it. Does your company have an unsafe action / near miss reporting procedure? Start by spamming that. Decent companies will take it seriously as they view H&S as something positive that keeps employees productive rather than just a box ticking exercise to avoid getting fined. They don't want you taking time off because you've been in an accident on the way to work any more than you do.

OTOH the Tesco's warehouse down the road turns the cycle path into something resembling wacky races at shift changes. But at least they're not in cars.

I am a total jobsworth but I think instead of emailing 6000 workers with another rubbishy "will all colleagues PLEASE be reminded that henceforth blah blah" email there is a simpler way.

Can't the H&S team just pin notes to all the bikes in the shed that say "oi you lot, give people space when you're zooming past them on the cycle path, and stop riding dodgy chipped bikes like ****s"? It's a small problem population and they're not realistically gonna start a multi agency enforcement initiative.

<p>Maybe just contact the police and tell them there are loads of illegal vehicles being driven into / out of the employers’ site and let them pop along to seize them all at home time.</p>

The only really concern that I could see that they would have is that the bikes doo not meet UK standards and therefore are they a fire hazard on their property?

TBH, I think the potential for fire/explosion is the only avenue worth trying.

I would hope you are going after all the illegal cars as well - those with knackered tyres etc etc.

you don’t think that if your boss found out you were driving to work every day without tax or insurance they might want to have a quiet (or loud) word? 🤦‍♂️ 

You'd need crayons and several hours to explain it to my boss. 🤦🤦 Plus, of course, my response is "**** off, no, I'm not, mind your own business".

tjagain

I would hope you are going after all the illegal cars as well – those with knackered tyres etc etc.

That's not in the same category as effectively driving on the pavement/speeding onsite near employees though.

As someone else suggested, use the near miss reporting each time it happens, and encourage your colleagues to do so too.  If they are up on H&S presumably they will have some sort of system to do this on.  It might only need a couple of bad offenders to get some grief over it to put off the majority of other employees from riding carelessly onsite (even if their bike is still technically illegal)

Dangerous cars kill folk.  BIkes do not

Dangerous cars kill folk.  BIkes do not

With the exception of 3 recent high profile death of teenagers riding high powered ‘ebikes’ of course.

Given the damage the last one did to an ambulance I suspect they can.

they killed themselves not others.  Cars kill hundreds every year and huge numbers of defective and illegal cars are on the streets

I’m not suggesting cars aren’t a risk, my point is a fast moving bike / e motorcycle could easily cause a fatal accident involving not just the rider.  Commuting in London I see the risk first hand, all the more so as the ‘bikes’ in question are often ridden by morons with little attention to other road / cycle lane users.

apart from it doesn't happen bar very very rarely

But in the context of the OPs problem, a car with a defective tyre is very low risk to himself when the cars are probably going slower than the electric bikes, and they are not sharing the cycle path with him either.

It would be unreasonable for the employer to carry out safety checks on private vehicles that are not used for company business (as you imply), but if those vehicles (or ebikes) are being driven unsafely onsite that would be an area they could decide was worthy of intervention.

If complaints and near misses were raised and ignored, and subsequently an ebike...let's say electric motorbike...caused injury to an employee whilst onsite, it would put the company in a vulnerable position

apart from it doesn’t happen bar very very rarely

Sadly, and the three recent deaths show it, we will see more as the number of them grows.

I wonder if there is an issue of statistics being 'hidden' - because the machines involved in the statistics are 'motorbikes' and they are 'road accidents'?

To go back to OP - the police are the people who should be informed.

It would be unreasonable for the employer to carry out safety checks on private vehicles that are not used for company business (as you imply), but if those vehicles (or ebikes) are being driven unsafely onsite that would be an area they could decide was worthy of intervention.

What about the cars that are illegal and unsafe?  I bet a significant % of them are

Matt - those 3 killed themselves not others

What about the cars that are illegal and unsafe? I bet a significant % of them are

MOT

MOT

Plus of course speed cameras, police on the road.
I wonder how much of an issue that segregation of cycle lanes means no policing, no speed cameras, infrastructure designed around slow speeds and mixed use being used at higher speeds (etc)?

Those three deaths were motorbikes. Which do kill people (usually their riders, as in these cases) with some regularity.

How naive to think that there are no unsafe / uninsured cars on the site.  considering the % of such on UK roads

Just to answer a few points, I'm fully aware the police are far too under-resourced to tackle this behaviour, I have 2 close friends who've been in the police for years and I've heard all about their issues. This is why I'm wondering if going down the route of getting my company involved would be a better course of action.

I'm also fully aware illegal cars are an issue, perhaps those raising this point could start a new thread because that's not what I'm asking about. I'm not sharing the road with those when I'm on my bike so it's irrelevant to this discussion.

We've all read the recent badly reported news stories about scrotes killing themselves on these things and we've all seen the massive increase in their use in general. At the moment the police have clearly decided it's a problem they're either unwilling or unable to tackle.

Matt – those 3 killed themselves not others

Agreed, but a pensioner has been killed by an illegal e-scooter and i know two people with broken bones having been clattered by illegal ebikes on Nottingham cycle paths

I actually preferred it when the odd scrambler bike was found on canal banks. Speeding electric motorbikes isn't a huge problem here but when the odd one appears you get  little warning of them coming.

For the OP. Presumably he knows the identity of these riders.  As they arrive at a known time an easy catch for the police I would have thought.

I actually have some sympathy with modifying e bikes because the 15mph limit is too low for on road. But exceeding that speed on off road routes is being a dick.

I suppose talking to the dicks first before the police is an option. But I don't mind being unpopular.

If contacting the police in Scotland you can quote their spokesman

"Both community and road policing officers will tackle issues in local areas. Anyone with concerns in their community should contact police via 101 so we can carry out enquiries and report those breaking the law."

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/police-scotland-e-scooter-campaign-29975416

Those three deaths were motorbikes. Which do kill people (usually their riders, as in these cases) with some regularity.

What the OP is describing are effectively motorbikes, just electronic ones.  I don’t think anyone has an issues with a regular e-bike here. The discussion is about illegally modified, uninsured electronic motorcycles being ridden at speed in areas designated and designed for the safe use of pedal cycles (whether regular or electronically assisted).

My perspective is that it’s a regulation issue, so given the government can’t even regulate its own members properly, just expect to see the issue get worse until the Daily Hate readership call for the blanket ban of pedal transport.

I’m also fully aware illegal cars are an issue, perhaps those raising this point could start a new thread because that’s not what I’m asking about. I’m not sharing the road with those when I’m on my bike so it’s irrelevant to this discussion.

This seems like an infrastructure problem outside of work premises and work should have and enforce speed limits inside work premises.
I'm missing why they are on a cyclepath ?? Is there a reason ? Is it at all valid? Are they ALL on the cyclepath or just some?

On my real bike I'd have no wish to go 30-40mph on a cyclepath if there was a 30-40mph road next to it vs a narrow NSL road...

irc

I actually have some sympathy with modifying e bikes because the 15mph limit is too low for on road. But exceeding that speed on off road routes is being a dick.

It's a legislative minefield I guess...
I totally don't think anyone with a derestricted eBike/scooter should be using it on cycle paths ...
Whilst 15 mph is unsafe and impractical on a road... (Impractical meaning it's not going to be adopted as a valid transport means)
and the legislative exception for road legal e-bikes means they are using a motor vehicle without insurance/MOT (and tax but who cares in the wider picture)

However going too quickly on a bike is not restricted to eBikes or illegal e-Bikes...
TBH if I was still commuting then 15mph is a huge turn-off for anything over a couple of miles...

Personally I see the benefits of e-transport on scooters or bikes as outweighing the disadvantages but I can't see widespread adoption with 15mph limits.

E-scooters/bikes are great for urban transport but I don’t really think they’re the solution for most people for longer distances e.g. commuting to the next town.

MOT

Is a test one day a year, what about it? Are you suggesting it stops cars with dangerous defects being driven ? That being the case do MOT failures only happen when they are presented at the testing station ?

How naive to think that there are no unsafe / uninsured cars on the . considering the % of such on UK roads

Who said that there are no unsafe/ uninsured cars?

Is a test one day a year, what about it? Are you suggesting it stops cars with dangerous defects being driven ? That being the case do MOT failures only happen when they are presented at the testing station ?

😂 MOTs without doubt stop cars with dangerous defects being driven! Or do you mean all cars with dangerous defects all the time? In which case of course it doesn't but its better than nothing.

A 20mph limit would make e-bikes a more practical  solution for urban transport. It would work well with 20mph speed limit areas. The problem would be a significant number of riders would adopt a 20mph speed as the default on off road routes.

But I'm not sure even a 20mph limit would encourage widespread use.  Current e-bikes are useful for local journeys particularly in hilly areas and especially when their are traffic free routes. Many people would still not want to mix with traffic though.

My wife very rarely cycles. We were out this week for a short trip using a mix of road and off road paths.

Mixing with traffic suddenly looks at lot less safe when it is an inexperienced rider. Places I think nothing off are suddenly full of potential hazards. Mixing novice cyclists with busy 25-35mph traffic does not feel great.

Add in typical UK weather for the dark part of the year and you can see why people choose other options.

20 mph is fine for experienced cyclists - not so for less experienced.  In the netherlands older folk getting back into bikes and injuring themselves on 15mph e bikes is becoming a big issue.  I would be very much against raising the limit

The slight issue might be that they aren’t illegal per se. They are illegal for use on the road. Private land, like a workplace, can have whatever rules they like. The path may also have its own rules, especially if it isn’t immediately adjacent to a highway.

the rules of the road apply to any space accessible to the public. also, 'road' or 'highway' has a lot wider definition than you might imagine. it includes footpaths, pavements and verges for instance, as well as cycle paths.

the OP's work site is not subject to the rules of the road.

the law was changed some years ago IIRC regarding publicly available spaces to give police the tools to deal with nuisance gatherings in maccyD's and such.

TBH if people want to risk prosecution riding unregistered, uninsured e motorbikes and de-restricted ebikes at speed they're welcome to in my view but doing so on cycle paths is a dick move. i'm sure a lot of us could get a road bike up north of 25mph for a burst but generally people aren't doing that a lot or for long. cracking along at 40mph on a cycle path is rude.

If you find 15mph to restrictive you should just ride a normal bike and go as fast as you like.

20 mph is too fast for crowded bike lanes and shared use paths.

• Cycling hero's shouldn't need an ebike.