[Closed] CX racing wheels and tyres - what do I need to know?

I am a massive clement fan. For all round mixed conditions the mxp is fantastic, personally I think it is far superior to the grifo it's based on, th edge knobs have real bite, on grassy offcambers you can hear them gripping, itosundslike velcro! Then the pdx for mud, seems to be good but I've not tried any competitors

If you're racing then there's no substitute for tubs, and if you're going for tubs then there's no substitute for either Dugasts or FMBs. The wheels themselves matter less, it's all in the tubs.
Make sure they're glued on properly and you're away.

Tubeless is good for training.

I'm on:

Dugast Smallbirds for fast dry days
FMB Slalom for intermediate days
FMB Supermud for biblical days

I train on Kendas set up tubeless, either Cholla Pro, Slant Six or Happy Medium.

Wheels I'm on 38mm carbons for the tubs and American Classic Hurricanes for training.

I'm on Stans Grail rims with either Vittoria XG or XL TNT depending on conditions, same for racing and riding

Might get some MXP's for training and set them up tubeless (or latex tube?) on clincher rims. The OEM Maxxis Mud Wrestlers on there at the moment are lethal on local wet rooty trails.

Shall look into a set of carbon tubs. Any recommendations?

Ooo, have you bought it then?

I've raced with tubs and tubeless and was just as rubbish with either 🙂

I spent most of the races worrying that my tubs were going to roll off on corners or puncture when I hit stuff. With tubeless I didn't worry about anything and I could use the wheels tyres for any other riding on my cross bike too.

Crosshair, unlikely it'll be going back!

Reynolds Assult Discs and the whole range of Challenge Tyres, mostly using Griffos (most used) day races, long distance, races in a mix of hardpack and loam, then Limus in mud and soft loam, Almanzos in super hardpack dry and Clem' Gravel Grinder 38c for gravel.

Pic?
Why not.
[img] [/img]

I spent most of the races worrying that my tubs were going to roll off on corners

Tubeless - seen plenty struggle with the low pressures, rolling tyres off rims, probably seen more rolled tubeless than rolled tub or flatted tubes.

I currently have clinchers which I swap tyres on; file tread Challenge Alamanzo, or Clement PDX which is broadly similar to a Baby Limus, and a good intermediate tyre with low rolling resistance but strong side knobs for cornering and digging into mud.

I also have a set of nice mud race wheels similar to LS; 38mm Light Bicycle carbons with FMB Supermuds. Tubs take a bit of adjusting too as they grip so much, but you can run such low pressures you get lots of sidewall flex so initially it feels like the tyres are sliding.

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/01/03/wyman-method-setting-proper-race-tire-pressure-part-1/

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/01/04/wyman-method-picking-cross-tires-part-2/

I'm ~67kg, I tend to run ~25psi in clinchers and 18psi in the tubs (both vary depending on whether it's a smooth grass crit or a rooty, techy course), I've had the tubs as low as 15 and they bottomed out regularly on small rocks but no damage done.

Crashtestmonkey... tubes with your clinchers then? Thanks for the links too, useful stuff.

Shall check out LB rims. Bikebuoy, those Attacks may need to wait for next season!

yeah sorry, clinchers with regular butyl tubes. Latex tubes supposed to be the dogs danglies, which is probably why they're not cheap and have been sold out (in CX sizes) when I've looked. I use latex in my road bike, but not risked trying a 23/25mm tube in a 32mm tyre.

Properly glued tubs are totally reliable. You'l only roll them if you haven't glued them properly in the first place, or you've let them get wet over time or not looked after them between seasons. (Speaking as someone who's rolled badly prepped tubs in the past!)

I normally bow to the wisdom of LS for all things CX ( :D), but proper top-end tubs always seem a little more 'fragile' than the run of the mill Challenge that I use (Do you still need to aquaseal the side walls etc?)

Grifo/Limus for me.

Trying some Clements this season as well, but seem to remember reading that they're more cheaply constructed than even the Challenges...

Do you still need to aquaseal the side walls etc?)

not on FMB as the sidewalls have a (latex?) rubber coating, they're not untreated cotton.

http://www.fmbtires.com/fmb_cotton_Super_Mud.htm

FMB Cyclocross tires feature a superior sidewall coating factory installed.

And at the risk of pointing out the bleeding obvious keep an eye on eBay and on your local CX league FB pages, plenty of people are gearing up for the new season and selling old kit which might include wheels if they're using new axle standards, got new sponsor/support etc. Think I paid £250 for mine which are mint LB carbon on hope Pro 2 with newly fitted FMBs (which are ~70 quid each).

I use Clement tubs for racing, either PDX or MXP depending on course conditions. All mounted on Hope 45 carbon wheels.

For training either Clement clinchers or the Schwalbe G-one gravel tyres ive been knocking around on all summer mounted to Hope 25 alloy clinchers.

I used to use FMB and Dugast, which arguably run a little quicker than the Clement, but they're fragile. I felt no the clement much better in the mud than either of the others.

I aquaseal all my skinwalls, doesn't stop them from going muddy brown it just sort of delays the inevitable... I've got a set of Fangos in my cupboard yet to use.. they look a little fragile with thier well spaced short knobbles but I'll give them a go soon.

IME tubs vs clinchers is the difference between riding and walking in places. Because of the bigger tyre carcass volume and low pressures, tub tape doesn't work - Belgian method works best, using a cloth rim tape between the rim and tubular. Ideally, having 2 sets of wheels/tyres to cope with different conditions.

I'm running Dugast Rhino's when it's muddy, but I do think the FMB carcass is nicer to ride on, having had a set of Rhino treads on FMB's in the past.
I've tried Challenge of various types & they're ok, but nowhere near as supple as the others, but do the job when it's drier & that matters slightly less.
Schwalbe Racing Ralphs would be great if they were slightly wider, as they're narrow for a 32 & I've had puncture issues in the past.
Glue them well, try & rush it & it'll show when one rolls-I use the standard method, but generally four layers of glue on tub & rim with 24 hours between each layer until the last one on the tub, do that & bang it on!

Thanks chaps. Loads of great info there.

Need to sort out tyres for training first so will try and find some stock of MXP open tubs and run set them up tubeless (can the Griffo clincher be run tubeless?) Pinch flatted already with the stock tyres and tubes. Can't remember the last time I pinch flatted, not ran tubes off road for years.

I've nothing to add except

Ooo, have you bought it then?

It looks very nice, much better than you'd give it credit for in the web-shop pics.

It got me curious again and I found a cheap Alu KMC 105 last night, but I'm buggered if I could justfy a purchase, what with a dedicated 2018 MTB race season & 17/18 coached winter plan needing MTB skills in the mix.

A bit like my TT bike, which I've used only 3 times this year... 🙁

Nice one MrBlobby

I'm using sk gravel king on hope XC rims. Much lighter than most tubeless CX specific rims and work very well tubeless

Now this thread has got me looking more seriously at tubulars too 😳

Now this thread has got me looking more seriously at tubulars too

for me it was like going to full suspension, or fitting a dropper post in being a step-change improvement in performance. I can't afford a rack of tubs/wheels for different conditions so for now I'll be sticking with swapping different clinchers for dry/mixed, then my tubs for mud (where there is the least grip available so they make the most difference, is my theory).

I can't afford a rack of tubs/wheels for different conditions so for now I'll be sticking with swapping different clinchers for dry/mixed, then my tubs for mud (where there is the least grip available so they make the most difference, is my theory).

Interesting stuff. I'd have thought tubs for the most likely conditions then clinchers as a second choice, but that ^^^ makes a lot of sense.

It looks very nice, much better than you'd give it credit for in the web-shop pics.

TBH I haven't given much thought to what it looks like, it's a tool for a job. Is actually quite nice, though not as nice as bikebouy's baby blue one. My LBS tells me the paint is a little faded on one side (unnoticeable to me!) so he's doing me a deal on it 🙂

then my tubs for mud (where there is the least grip available so they make the most difference, is my theory).

That was my thoughts. Also no chance I can sneak a new wheelset thorugh till I've started making inroads into paying off the new bike so prob not till Nov.

Also I feel more likely to get a thorn or other sealant fixable puncture earlier in the season so running tubeless with sealant makes sense until it gets really muddy, especially as I'm quite happy with running tubeless around 22psi which gives plenty of grip on drier courses.

If you only get one set of tubs, get mud ones. The difference between them & clinchers is unreal. Mainly due to how low you can go with the pressure to find grip on off camber stuff you never thought possible! I run down to 16psi on some courses. In the dry where higher pressures are needed, the difference between them is reduced.

Deep-ish section rims that big a deal in the mud or is it all about the tubs?

Thinking something like Novatec CXD tubeless with MXPs for all rounders. Then some tubs on deep-ish section wheels for mud. Sounds reasonable?

not sure if it's 'officially' a reason, but deeper section wheels don't clog as much as there's a rim sitting where the mud would go. Switching between a 'nice' bike with deepish tub rims and a 'pit' bike with standard shallow (clincher) rims it makes a genuine difference.

Ignore all that ^.

Skinwalls. Its all about skinwalls.

Is there much in it between the various Chinese purveyors of 38mm tubs? Thinking about a second set and it seems like the planet x ones (which I have) are about the same price once you factor in shipping from lightbicycle etc

The PX 38mm tubs ones do seem a pretty good deal if you want it all built up. Don't know much about their hubs though.

... though QR with no mention of them being convertible to 12mm, which would rule them out.

Deep rims? Depends on what your local ride conditions are like, but if you do get ankle-deep slop then it's often quicker to run unless you have a spare bike in the pits and someone to clean if off every lap as the drivetrain gets so gunked-up that you're effectively stuck in one gear. Agree that if you can only go for one pair of tubular wheels, then a mud tyre is probably the best as you'll often find grip e.g. off-camber whereas you'll slide in a clincher. I also run sealant in my tubulars.

Suspect I'll be racing similar courses down south to crashtestmonkey as I think he's fairly local to me. So his advice is probably good for local conditions.

These look reasonable: [url= http://www.swinnertoncycles.co.uk/wheels-c293/wheels-c308/road-c314/novatec-cxd-aluminum-cross-disc-wheelset-shimano-p52110 ]Novatec tubulars[/url]

I read somewhere else they come with all axle adaptors but don't rely on that! Would like a bit lighter (suggested 1485g wheelset) but think you are going to big money to acheive that

Ferrals I was looking at their clincher ones for all rounders. Can get them for under 320 quid from wiggle. They come with axle adapters and spare spokes and nips. Weight is pretty good, a big improvement from the > 2kg stock wheels!

If you're having more than 1 set of wheels, i advise on going for 6 bolt compatibility. I made the mistake of getting some Mavic open pro's on Hope RS4's made up last winter & whilst they were sensibly prices & durable i didn't factor in the fact that 160mm rotors & lockrings are about £45 each. Then i ended up getting another pair done recently with some clincher rims, as it became a total arse adjusting the disc brakes when swapping wheels.

Deep section rims (like mine) hmmm, I bought mine because the std wheels weighed more than the bike with me on it alone. 😆

It's mainly weight and aesthetics in my world. Lighter they are, roll better and have a sort of rolling motion to them. Less weight = a teeny bit more umph. But I've only noticed the deep sections being any good in long distance races and short course mud. Short course dry they make no difference in the real world, only longer distance dry when you can blow chunks is where they come into their own.

I'd not bother if it's short course racing only and save a few squid and get another set of wheels (Hunt for example) and set em' up with mud tubs or open clinchers on.

But .. they do look s****y don't they 😆

Can anyone recommend somewhere to buy cross tubs that don't cost the earth? Planning on starting racing this year, got the bike sorted with two pairs of tubular wheels, but need some new tubs. Don't really wanna fork out £200 on tyres alone.

£50 per tyre seems reasonable to me. Not seen any cheaper

P-X has Racing Ralph tubulars for £20 - they're not brilliant, but they'll be better than most clinchers

bought mine because the std wheels weighed more than the bike with me on it alone.

Must be the same ones as mine, front wheel alone is 1000g 😯 My 29er XC wheels are a lot lighter, may run those instead. Despite the weight I don't think they are particularly strong as, after 3 rides, mine are no longer round. And I am neither a heavyweight nor cack handed on the trails. Maybe I just need to reassess what a crosser is capable of? (Or do I just need fatter rubber for training on rooty trails?)

Maybe I just need to reassess what a crosser is capable of?

It's more a case of altering your riding style. You can ride a CX bike on a surprising amount of terrain but it involves riding lighter, riding round things instead of through them that you might on an MTB and sometimes just knocking the speed back a bit.
Race courses are generally pretty smooth nowadays anyway!

after 3 rides, mine are no longer round.

Spoke too soon. Not quite sure what happened there but it looks like the bead wasn't seated properly and had somehow made its way down into the well, hence a lumpy wheel. Bit of manipulation and all good now. Got some nicer latex tubes in there now which help a bit but still can't get away from the fact that there's around 2.4kg of wheel there! I've ordered some 12mm adapters for my hope/crest 29er wheelset and will get some MXP set up tubeless (when I can find some stock!) I'll use them while I muse on a wheel purchase.

Realised half way through training this evening my tubeless front tyre was down to 15psi. Felt really really nice and only checked when I saw how wide the contact patch was on tarmac. When I realised wasn't super confident on fast hairpins till I'd inflated it a bit so I think I'm going to have to wangle a tub set up somehow 😆

Ferrals, tubs sound essential to me 😉

Re tubs, what's the thinking with rim width? I've got some old 50mm ones in the shed that I could cannibalise but they were road ones and are probably quite narrow. Spoke count might be quite low too.

They'll be fine. I ran 16 spoke 45mm fronts for years without any issues at all (the braking surface wore completely through and they still didn't need touching with a spoke key), and they were standard road rims of the time so not the new wide ones. It's the shape rather than the width that matters, they need to be nice and shallow.
Most carbons are, it's the older alloy v-rims which cause issues as the base tape can't follow the profile of the rim properly and so doesn't stick on well without bodging.

Thanks LS, I'll go dig them out tomorrow. They're the Planet X 50/50 tubs. May be a cheaper option just to get some hubs and build them up.

Nick Craig won an Elite national title on those wheels so I'm sure that they're good enough 😀

Hmm front is 20H, can't seem to get disc hubs for them, probably for good reason. Oh well.

Say I have an aversion to PX, and the Kinesis wheels seem too heavy.. what other options do I have for a tub wheelset (discs 12mm through axles) that are reasonably priced?

Strada seem a pretty good bet [url= http://www.stradawheels.co.uk/product/34mm-tubular-carbon-wheelset/ ]here[/url]. Depends on what you mean by reasonably priced I guess. Other than that I think it's likely Chinese direct carbon or ebay.

They look bang on, thanks. It's not going to be an imminent purhcase but good to have someithng in mind.

I went with these clinchers https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/dt-swiss-r-23-spline-disc-ta-11s-shimano-wheelset-502783/wg_id-12981 for £330 - the come complete with all the adapters, lock rings, tubeless ready, valves etc. Mine are for the odd race and local trail rides.

[img] [/img]

1655g

Guy on Central league FB selling various unused tubs for about half price

https://m.facebook.com/CentralCXLeague/posts/1481022138646379

Thanks for the link. What's the thinking on baby limus? Would you have it as your mud tyre or is it more intermediate?

Baby limus is a great all rounder and really works well in all conditions.

As to the tub argument I have to agree that they are significantly better, however I wouldn't recommend anyone in their first season using them.

Thing is, you'll be racing most weekends, and in between you'll be training. cleaning kit and mending stuff. There simply isn't enough time to be stripping off a punctured tub and gluing up another. It adds another layer of stress on to an already exhausting schedule.

I'd recommend buying a set of Baby Limus open tubulars, use inner tubes and lean not to pinch flat them (ride light) so you can run 20psi both ends.

Tubs will make a difference of a place or two in some races. Fine if you want to get from second to first place but not worth the hassle whilst you learn the craft of getting bike and body to the finish line in one piece a little further down the field.

Baby Limus, excellent tyre. Wide spaced and smaller nobz, grip nicely and corner well. I didn't go as low as 20psi, normally stay around 28-30psi for all round conditions.

rollindoughnut - Member

Tubs will make a difference of a place or two in some races. Fine if you want to get from second to first place but not worth the hassle whilst you learn the craft of getting bike and body to the finish line in one piece a little further down the field.

Totally agree; you more likely to finish higher by just getting fitter ... I know thats not the easy quick fix answer some will want, but unfortunately its the blunt truth.

I run clinchers - usually position in the top 10 of my category ... and apart from 1 or 2 courses, I have never felt it is grip that is holding me back from a position or so higher; its always my legs/lungs that are the weakest link.

Thanks chaps. May well do that while dipping my toe in for first season then look to tubs next season if I get on ok.

So open clinchers and latex tubes or tubeless? Expect the former to be better at lower pressures if you can avoid the pinch flats.

Totally agree; you more likely to finish higher by just getting fitter ... I know thats not the easy quick fix answer some will want, but unfortunately its the blunt truth.

Uh, in that case- get the Tubs MrBlobby 😆 😀

I use butyl tubes on clinchers (cheaper and maybe tougher?). I've not found tread patterns I like as much as the Challenge open tubular range in other manufacturers tubeless designs plus the tubeless I did try either suffered from unsealable sidewall nicks or burped air. The only ones that worked were the Bontrager range but these tread patterns are far behind Challenge tyres.

So to surmise, If you are buying two tread patterns then make one a limus and the other a griffo, if just one (which I recommend; less to worry about) then I think the baby limus is the best all rounder. I use this tyre from road/dust/gravel trough to thick mud as it stays on my training bike all year. Current set, rubber lasted 9 months although it's very worn now and I got 3 punctures in total (2 pinch flats and a thorn).
I vary the pressures between 20-35psi depending on what I expect to come across on my ride.

On a 'cross race course, you can identify any feature that can cause a pinch flat during your pre-ride laps. There will often only be one or two hazards a lap and you can choose whether to hop, ride around, slow down or dismount for them. Therefore on race day you can drop to silly low pressures and really enjoy the feeling of floating around on a set of cushions. Beware though, when you stand up and sprint or corner hard you may cause the tyres to fold over which is a whole new thing to learn to deal with. It's such a cool game!

Thanks rollindoughut, loads of good stuff there.

Got some MXP on the way. Shall try them tubes and tubeless and see how it goes.

Did you get the tubeless version of the mxp or the normal? Tubeless much less supple but very easy to run tubeless, I wouldn't bother with tubes if you have the dedicated tubeless ones.

Had ordered them thinking I'd run the MXP tubeless. Then get something softer to run with latex tubes for when it's muddy.

In light of above I'm wondering if I should have gone for a griffo with a latex tube instead.

Probably overthinking this seeing as I've not even raced yet 😉

Probably overthinking this seeing as I've not even raced yet

Nobody on here has ever done that before 😉

Bikebuoy is that the SDW where it meets the railway line just north of Meonstoke?

I really like Baby Limus. Very versatile.
Ideal set up for me, with the little finesse and skill I have, is Limus front and Baby Limus rear. I have Cole 38mm section wheels and some Ambrosio alloy rims on Hope hubs. I prefer the Ambrosios. Stiff and light. Not run tubeless but latex tubes in open tubs which worked well for training and spares.
If you don't want spangly Carbon you can probably find alloy wheels for Tubs for a good price.
I used the Chinese Carbon wheels with Novatec hubs for a couple of years with no issues.

I run clinchers - usually position in the top 10 of my category ... and apart from 1 or 2 courses, I have never felt it is grip that is holding me back from a position or so higher; its always my legs/lungs that are the weakest link.

I agree - Munqe Chick won the Central womens league overall '15-'16 season, and came second '16-'17 season on clinchers 8) I bought the tubs last year half way through my second season; I had my highest placing riding them but I also got physically stronger as the season went on so couldn't attribute that to them, but they are a genuine performance improvement. I wouldn't buy tubs until I knew I actually enjoyed racing, but as Munqe Chick and I are mad for it (doing as many races as my shift work allows) they were a worthwhile outlay.

Thanks for the link. What's the thinking on baby limus?

well, we ended up buying the unused Baby Limus off the link on the basis Munqe Chick will be going tubs next year 😉

Well one of the MXP arrived this morning. I shall get some of those Novatec wheelsets, pop them on, and go racing 🙂

Quick one for you lot. If I do go for a clincher mud tyre do I go tubeless (like a PDX maybe) or open tub (like a Limus) with a latex tube? Thinking the latter might work better at lower pressures.

Unsure of tubeless option but i've run some pretty low pressures with a latex tube and PDX clinchers. Weirdly the pdx clinchers came up wider than the tubular version for me.

Weirdly the pdx clinchers came up wider than the tubular version for me.

I read that was because the clinchers are 'generous' whereas Clement were aware those using tubs might get their tyres measured and so made sure they were bang on the UCI reg. 33

well, we ended up buying the unused Baby Limus off the link on the basis Munqe Chick will be going tubs next year

I was the one who bought the used Limus and Baby Limus... sorry!

Anyone know where cx latex tubes can be purchased?

Anyone know where cx latex tubes can be purchased?

chain reaction had stock briefly this weekend. you need to set up stock noification and be quick!

Anyone know where cx latex tubes can be purchased?

My LBS has loads of the challenge ones 🙂

chain reaction had stock briefly this weekend. you need to set up stock noification and be quick!

Done

Also...

https://www.sigmasport.co.uk/item/Challenge/Superlite-Cross-Latex-Inner-Tube-29-38mm/BXZP

I read that was because the clinchers are 'generous' whereas Clement were aware those using tubs might get their tyres measured and so made sure they were bang on the UCI reg. 33

Munqe-Chick raced the UK nationals in 2015/16 with PDX clinchers, they technically failed the UCI caliper test on the start line but as she posed little threat to Wyman, Harris etc they let her race 😉