[Closed] Cut Gate - share your feedback!

Not on FB so here's a couple of my thoughts.

"Fixing" the two worst areas could, and I stress could, simply shift the problem elsewhere on the route as people then assume that the route is rideable in all conditions. In a few years' time there'll be calls to fix those points, effectively a complete resurfacing by stealth/parts.

Could there be "entrance tests" at either end? I.e. "If this bit is boggy/up to your axles then please don't continue as you'll be increasing erosion".

Unfortunately there'll always be some who are of the opinion that "I've come all this way so I'm going to do it". You get it in biking along with climbing and other sports. Not sure what you can do about this other than name and shame which is a bit confrontational.

I'd vote for more flagstones. But I do think that any work is just going to move erosion elsewhere on the trail as more people ride it. Does the winter erosion of the boggy areas do irreversible damage each year that gets worse and worse, or does it exist in a steady state winter to winter? If the latter then maybe doing nothing is best with the bogs acting as a natural enforcement of voluntary restraint to using the route during sensitive times? Making the bogs passable in winter will shift erosion to other parts of the path which currently see little traffic when wet.

ridden cutgate for over 30 years. it is now better than it has ever been. the whole top level section used to be a quagmire in winter. last time I went over it was not. the work they have done seems very good, if the top what harcored it would be ideal.

"Fixing" the two worst areas could, and I stress could, simply shift the problem elsewhere on the route as people then assume that the route is rideable in all conditions. In a few years' time there'll be calls to fix those points, effectively a complete resurfacing by stealth/parts.

To be fair, after the restoration work a few years back, most of the rest of the route is pretty sustainable - the worst section was fully slabbed. It's just a couple of places that get really boggy. Personally I only ride it in a dry summer or when it's frozen solid, but the reality is that some people don't care about conditions and ride it whatever.

That said, I'm not sure Cut Gate is ever going to get the sort of traffic that more accessible trails do even it if is selectively restored in the currently eroded areas.

Personally I'd favour better rider education, but I suspect that's not a viable solution.

Only ridden it a couple of times as even though it's local weather and timing rarely work out. As mentioned in the report there are a couple of key areas that get very boggy. If these sections of the path/trail could effectively be raised with flagstones or similar so the water/bog can flow clearly underneath then that would help massively. The rest of the trail is, from memory fairly resilient.

Heading up after cranberry clough there is a lot of flagstone which is obviously resilient. On the north side, heading down to North America is lovely singletrack. It's generally on the side of hill so water drains off it pretty well. My only thoughts are that if more people use it you get more traffic jams as it is very narrow. I guess this is made worse by the out and back nature of the route.

As a aside, after carrying out a spectacular OTB the boggy nature of the trail does have it's upside 🙂

I think the top two replies have nailed it.

People will ride it whatever the condition and if its "fixed" even more people will ride it. You can't educate everyone and even if you could some people simply don't care.

A fully armoured (hardcore or paving) trail would be best even if this has to be diverted off the main ROW and around bogs... And while you / they are at it have a look at the North America trail as that used to be a couple of foot wide and now its a couple of yards wide plus fix the bit by the corner of the wall as the path is boggy and unclear meaning everyone goes really wide.

Same as Ton, been riding it for over 30 years and it was as bad then as it is now. When we have a cold winter and a bit of snow it seems that it holds up better the following summer.
Asking people to be sensible wont work, not even sure that a repair to the worst effected areas will work.
Over the last couple of years we have seen less and less bikes on a weekend so maybe riders are giving it a miss. if they do decide to repair its going to be one hell of a task to get the stuff up on to the top

Definitely no more flagstones.
I run as well as bike and flagstones in winter are a deathtrap when frozen on the high moors. If you walk from snake pass through to Kinder you will see in parts a small footpath developing next to the flags as people avoid walking on them.
Like to see one of my photos made the brochure as well..!

Cheers folks, glad to get some replies straight off.

As per the booklet, we're looking at rider (and other user!) education first - but that's a very difficult task.

It's by no means a winter only issue these days, often wet and bad to ride at other times of year too. We think there's still a lot of use (bikes and others) when it is wet, hence the growing boggy sections. I don't think enough people are avoiding it when bad. That's not necessarily intentional, hence my point of education.

The previous work by Moors for the Future has done a cracking job, agreed. It's meant that most of the route is good, but then contrasts heavily with the really wet bits.

I think the tide is changing a little, with riders now paying some attention to what they ride and when. There's still a big (probably growing) group of people who are used to trail centre/all weather routes and don't question a route guide on a website (for example)

Rode it once a few Summers back, couldn't see what the fuss was about, there's loads of better trails and circular routes in the Peaks, so I give it a miss.
Agree that addressing the issues would be good but not sure what can be done apart from turning into another trail centre type surface 😈

on a dry summers evening, it is one of the best trails in the whole of the uk......simply stunning.

but now knowing what it get likes in winter, I would sign myself up to a voluntary self imposed ban from riding it.

Fascinating subject. I don't have any answers, but very interested to read other's thoughts.

My personal thoughts.

Flagstones are bad in general.
The work done so far on the top on the areas that aren't flagged is excellent.
It's never going to be a super-accessible path, so there's no point in making it so.
'Superbog' does probably need something done as the path is getting wider and wider. Interesting that people above think that it will just move the problem elsewhere. It's not something I've noticed in other areas.

Might it be worth trialling a "We recommend you don't ride Cut Gate this weekend" post on KoftP when it looks like it'll be bad (based on recent local weather and experience)? If no-ones posted up conditions during the week and you're planning on riding on the Saturday it's kind of a guessing game if you're not in the area to know what the weather has been like.

Don't know how likely it is that the ones who ride it in poor conditions will check KoftP, or if would even make them avoid it, but couldn't hurt to try?

Signage might not put everyone off but might help with non locals riding when not appropriate - i certainly would have found another route rather than taking a group up there a couple of years back if I'd known of the issues

@AlexSimon - the problem moving elsewhere may or may not happen, it's hard to say. I've only ever done Cut Gate twice, probably ten or fifteen years apart and I can't remember what if any difference or degradation there was.

A quick check on Strava segment explore shows about 6000 attempts which IME is a high number for a natural track, it's about the same as Jacob's Ladder, a bit less than The Beast and half that of Potato Alley. If those numbers are correct then it's getting as much use as a stoned surface track.

Paving or partially paving Cut Gate would seem ruin its point (A bit like the Pennine Way). At the moment this is the only legal route across the moor so its quite heavily used. There are two other bridleways across from the Strines Road (Foulstone Road & Dukes Road) which are downgraded to footpaths once they hit the watershed or county boundary. The gap between Foulstone Road & the shooting tracks on the derbyshire side is perhaps only four or five hundred yards. Dukes Road can be a bit of a boggy mess by the time it reaches the watershed even in the best of conditions (but then again so does Cut Gate for much of the year).
Opening up one or both of these routes could significantly lower the pressure on Cut Gate.

When the Right to Roam legislation was brought in 16 years ago the Peak Park Rangers were insistent that the discrepancies where bridleways get downgraded to footpaths at county boundaries or where old cart or quarry tracks were classed as footpaths would be addressed but that never happened.

There is some serious naivety on this thread:
KotP is an excellent service but very small considering the UK riding population and you're likely preaching to the converted.

There are very few alternative routes up there so no virtually no one is going to ride part way, see a sign and then turn back, its mountain biking, its supposed to be muddy and difficult and a bit of a challenge.

"We" are mountain biking enthusiasts, were talking about a bike group that have produced a guide about a biking route for and posted it on a biking website. We need to be thinking about the tens if not hundreds of thousands of others that have bikes not ourselves.

And that's where this seems to be heading, fixing the issue for everyone, not just the enthusiasts.

I'm not a fan of more flags. Half the attraction of the top section is the peaty moorland feel.
And it's hard to give way to walkers on flagstones. You end up stepping off them anyway.

Education and signage gets my vote. Has a knock-on effect for other fragile areas too.

and posted it on a biking website

...and emailed it out to representatives from across the spectrum, including the Chief Executive of the Peak District National Park, councillors, county councils, various media, horse riding groups, disabled groups, access officers etc

Great comments. Keep 'em coming.

Any possibility of improving drainage? There's 3 main boggy points, all relatively short. I'm no groundsman but wonder if raising the path with drainage pipes under might create a usable/sustainable track

stilltortoise - ...and

Its good to see "us" branching out into cross discipline improvements.

Would it be possible to go data mining on Strava to help with this? If you could get user names for people who ride it when conditions are poor you could maybe message them to take part in a survey to understand why they're riding it and what you could do to encourage them to use alternatives.

Not sure if that's even possible with Strava and it definitely won't capture the whole user group, but it would be a start and could maybe be followed up with someone taking a survey at the trail head (not volunteering btw 😀 ).

Edit - could maybe get some undergrads to do the survey as part of their thesis. We seem to get quite a few on here asking for input into surveys so there might be a way to make it worthwhile for them as well.

I think any plans need to take in other user groups. For instance last weekend there was a fell race that was an out and back along Cut Gate. Thats 200+ across it in a day there and back. So 400 journeys on a wet Sunday in Feb.

I think it is also a well used track mainly because it is a very convenient way into the main of the peak district from the northern edge. More access to ridable trails and bridleways that lead in a similar direction would lead to less erosion and less traffic. I suspect a lot of the traffic is because it is a means to an end.

With regards to preventative measures, no to flags! Re-enforcing and raising sections with aggregate and more drainedge round the side would be good (not sure how easy).

First of all, well done to all those involved in the production of this leaflet - excellent work and was well received at a BMC meeting last year

Personally I only ride Cutgate in the height of summer - partly due to a history of crashes, problems and other issues that has ensured that every time I've done it I've had an epic, but that's another story. Because I live in Sheffield there is no need to me to do it when it isn't in good condition.

But I'm a bit concerned we could take this self-regulation/self-restriction too far. Look at a map of Bleaklow - that's the huge tract between the Woodhead Pass and the Snake Pass - a Cutgate is the only way across it for MTBs. There are a few other trails that nibble at the edges - and those two dead end bridleways - but essentially it's a bike free zone. You go for 9 miles due west of the summit before you hit a road and there's no legal trails in between. Even to the east it's 3 miles.

So I think it's important that we do something to make it more viable for more of the year. And that means that when people go up there there isn't a drought, they don't deviate from the tracks to go round the bogs. This applies not only to cyclists, but also walkers and runners.

When I was up there in August last year it was mostly bone dry, but the bog of doom (as in seen in the pictures) was really bad. Not sure whether boards or flags are the answer, but we need to do something before the path gets half a mile wide at that point. Main thing is to improve drainage, but of course the mud is so think that it blocks ditches really quickly. But apart from that there was only one other dodgy section along the top - a vicar of dibley hole where I had an OTB the previous year - along with some boggy sections near slippery stones (where drainage ditches had been dug, but had got blocked).

As a local to Cut Gate and a regular summer user my personal opinion is that it would take More than just slabs to cure the swamp problems up there. The slabs would just end up sinking over a period of time thus being a waste of time and money. As for a solution to the problem the only way I can see would be to move the path to the higher ground on the right, but then you would be back to square one again in a few years time when the new path turns to a bog. I would love to see a solution to the problem as it's one of my favourite summer evening rides.

Im wondering why its even being looked at , the guy I live next to is the gamekeeper up from langsett to midhope boundry and then Magnus is the actual keeper from midhope to the rocks before you start to drop down, they both say this land is privately owned and not by the peak national park so who actually does have responsibility

In fact he just gave me the names of both landowners who run the shoots up there

Cheers fo all the useful comments. Just a couple of things to add onto here.
This may be mountain bikers taking the lead and starting the conversation, but the idea is to get all user groups and landowners onboard to come up with a solution that works best for all.
The main focus is the two deep bogs which have deteriorated noticeably over the past 5 years. It is expected that these two spots would be sorted professionally. The rest would not see masses of work as no one really wants to see its character change. But there may be some volunteer trail days just like Ride Sheffield and Peak District MTB are already doing.
This is just the start and it's really important that we can listen to everyone's thoughts on this. Keep the comments coming and thanks again!

This one might be controversial, but I say "leave well alone". The really horrible bits are probably max 50 metres. If we go kicking up a fuss, we could easily focus unwanted attention from those who will use any stick to beat us with.

Also, sanitising it will inevitably lead to it becoming more accessible, not always a good thing. The more people you encourage to ride (or even walk) it, the more likely you are to get a mountain rescue situation as you will be making it more accessible to people who are unprepared.

It is a wild ride, in the best non-gnar sense of the word. A classy trail with a real element of committing to it and remoteness.

Also, hauling equipment and materials up there may well lead to the existing trails being 'improved' to facilitiate this.

I love the work that PDMTB and others have done to the likes of Lockerbrook and Whinstone Lee Tor, but that has been addressing erosion caused by heavy traffic on trails that are popular no matter what the conditions. Cut Gate is an oddity in that it really isn't something you just 'pop out' to ride or come across by accident. The bog at the top is pretty much a natural feature from what I can see, just a consequence of the ground leveling off with water coming in from the right (looking northwards).

Please, just be careful what you wish for. Some places are wild, committing and not always 'fun', but this sometimes adds to their mystique. Not everyone needs to be able to pedal or ride their gnarpoon for 100% of the ride to enjoy it, and we could end up with unintended consequences.

This one might be controversial, but I say "leave well alone".

i sit in this camp to be honest

The problems I hear about, happen much lower down the trail where other users frequent those trails and are more to do with idiocy in the countryside than erosion most often in summer , yes people will light a barbecue on moorland

people will let their dog go wandering off to see the grouse chicks/lambs despite the signs to keep your actual dog off the frigging moor completely

luckily this is usually winter time so getting the landowner pissed off and everyone banned even though its not our fault yer honour might fix the bog problem anyway for those 6 months,

However seriously i think your looking from the peak district proper side from ladybower over and back , rather than our side of the hill where to be honest lots of us go up cut gate regularly but also spend lots of time up winscar, hade edge etc

its like anything publicise it and they will come but its been classed as a classic ride for the 25 years of my life ive been riding there and not much changes up there despite the numbers which seem pretty constant unlike wharncliffe where the numbers seem to explode on a sunday you can still go out and see no one all day and on others theres loads even when it wragging it down.

and in winter when the

Thanks folks, appreciate all the comments. As Stilltortoise and RideSheffield say, the whole point is to bring other user groups/stakeholders together to start a discussion.

This document has been VERY well received by Peak Park, alongside Moors for the Future who did some of the previous work on Cut Gate.

There's lots of sides to this, including user education.

Mick- I think your points about other problems (idocy in the countryside) are valid too, that's a slightly different side to things but does link into user education.

[url= http://www.ridesheffield.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/CutGatev8.pdf ]Here's a direct link to the booklet.[/url]

(I'm not entirely convinced that everyone has read this before commenting) 😉

Agree with above poster. But could they not create a raised platform area over the worst areas at the top. Even get the' nair do wells ' doing it on community service, paying back to society and gaining skills for potential work/jobs later.

This should throw the moggys amongst the pigeons.

I agree with slight return could a raised platform/ bridge be built over the big bog on the top, it's been done in other parts of the Peaks. I know the Langsett side mostly and other than a couple of bits on the top, I can't really think of any other parts that are too bad, it's mostly rock isn't it?

I'm a once a year Cut Gate rider so I doubt my opinion counts for much but, I'd rather ride it as a loop. If those bridleways that turn into footpaths can be regraded then I only pass through the bog once.
I realise I'm asking for the earth, but you did ask the question.

Mickmcd, those contacts would be really helpful if your neighbour doesn't mind asking them to get in touch with PDMTB or RS.

This is a great discussion already, thanks everyone for your thoughts.

On Danny's point, the idea is absolutely not to sanitise. In fact the real aim is to avoid the damage up there and avoid us being blamed.

On the education piece, we're already working hard with the mags to improve things on that front. Always can do more though

shifter - I'm a once a year Cut Gate rider so I doubt my opinion counts for much but, I'd rather ride it as a loop. If those bridleways that turn into footpaths can be regraded then I only pass through the bog once.
I realise I'm asking for the earth, but you did ask the question.

Serious question but as we know the world wont end if you ride footpaths, why don't you use those footpaths and ride it as a loop?

It seems little odd to me that if exactly the same path had a different name some people would treat it differently.

It's been known but it's something I usually avoid. If everyone did that it would protect Cut Gate but I don't think it would do much good for the mtb profile in the Peak.

I've only ridden it once, when it was dry and firm in July. The education must be working a bit, as I've avoided it due to likely boggy conditions on all subsequent visits to the Peak.

I'd vote for an aggregate track rather than flagstones, for aesthetic and safety reasons.

Brilliant work with that document Simon, it's a breath of fresh air. I'm gonna drop you an email about something a bit related to it.

You might want to drop Pook an email too, I believe there is quite a bit of his work in there.

I've not ridden Cut Gate for a couple of years now, having moved away from the area, but it used to be a regular ride. I absolutely love the trail, but like others only ride it in drier conditions.

My inclination is to leave it alone and focus on rider education. I appreciate that rider education is likely to have limited effect, given the reasons outlined by others above. However, some people will pay attention.

I'd hate to see the trail covered in flagstones. A few little sections of flagstone where necessary is one thing, but it can definitely go too far. The packhorse trail down into Marsden is a prime example of this - a couple of really boggy bits did need to be flagged but massive sections of the trail got unnecessarily 'improved'. The end result was the ability to ride at much higher speeds, potentially causing increased conflict with other trail users, and a surface that was prone to getting covered in ice.

In a way, it's almost better for it to have large boggy sections when it's wet, rather than one or two smaller ones, as it makes people less inclined to ride it in unsuitable conditions.

Having read the booklet it targets the only two areas of concern, which is good. Those two areas do need dealing with, they are suddenly much worse than they used to be and the areas to the side are deteriorating rapidly as people avoid them.

I've no objection to two short sections of flags, they'd only be 20-40m long which isn't going to be a deal breaker and it'll last. I can't see aggregate lasting as long and I'm not certain it wouldn't be affected by mud in the same way. Bear in mind that these two points ford streams, which are likely to was aggregate away.

chakaping, YHM back. As Podge says, Pook has helped somewhat!!

munrobiker, exactly - we're highlighting a couple of points, not the whole route

It's a collaborative effort!

And that's what it needs to be. This debate is just what we want from the document - but for it to be really effective we need input from walkers, horse riders and runners too. Your input is great (and I know we all wear two hats and that - I'm a walker when I'm not on my bike) but spread the word.

If you see the document elsewhere in other groups then please let us know.

Paving or partially paving Cut Gate would seem ruin its point (A bit like the Pennine Way). At the moment this is the only legal route across the moor so its quite heavily used.

I don't think anyone is suggesting paving large sections of the track, just a couple of boggy areas where users are deviating from the main trail and widening it, creating large areas of erosion.

Everyone seems to have forgotten that around ten(?) or so years back, the whole trail was given a thorough and very sympathetic makeover by the PDNP, I think. It was a model of how trail restoration should work and while one or two areas - the slabbed section that runs along a peaty shoulder for example - are very obviously built, in other areas you can barely tell it's been worked on.

Big chunks of it, the sustainable bits, were pretty much left alone. There are places where you can still see and ride the original line if you want to, but the 'new' trail is better, more flowing and just works.

I've been riding Cut Gate since the early 90s and in the right conditions, it's a brilliant bit of trail with a proper wilderness feel to it that's actually been improved by the restoration work in the part, which isn't something you can always say unfortunately.

Done right you could make those boggy sections interesting with careful placement of rocks to create a sustainable line that's actually interesting rather than just big, paved slabs. As a parallel, consider the small singletrack diversion on the Campsite descent above Hayfield. It was put in to prevent people from basically head-butting the wall on the off-camber bend on the main trail, but because it's fun to ride, people use it.

I don't see why Cut Gate sections couldn't be made interesting too - stick in a moderately narrow, elevated plank bridge for example - no, not extreme north shore - or some 'stepping stone' links that actually require some thought and technical ability to ride, but are easy to walk across too. Or even provide two alternative lines.

I know the counter-view is about making things accessible for everyone, but trail restoration doesn't have to mean trail sanitisation if you do it right.

ps: if Cut Gate was left 'natural' there wouldn't actually be a trail, just a stream-bed... and some sheep.

and there's nothing natural about sheep.

it's already an entirely man made environment, the idea that by leaving it alone we'd be 'leaving it wild' is fundamentally flawed.

if we ignore the problem, it's only a matter of time before someone with a bit of clout looks at it and says, loudly, 'those mountainbikers are pain in the neck aren't they? - it's a good job they're not allowed on the other paths'

Pook and Simon have done an amazing job of assessing the problem, and starting a conversation about it, and a positive force within that conversation.

if we ignore the problem

What problem?.

Your citing that sheep are not natural :roll:, I'm sure people that have farmed the area for the past 100 years would say its not natural for a bike to be up there either.

What problem?.

erosion/damage/loss of peat is a problem, National Parks spend a lot of time and money trying to reduce/mitigate erosion, and repair/regenerate the peat.

its not natural for a bike to be up there either.

exactly, human activity is very much part of the landscape up there, asking if there is anything we could be doing to lessen our impact is a good thing.

erosion (and loss) of peat is a problem,

For who, you? How is it your problem? You don't actually have any stake in the land other than being granted permission to use it.

So stop the bikes then, problem solved people will still be up there walking.

Oh look, its Phil trolling again.

and there's nothing natural about sheep.

Are you sure about that? 😉

The solution is easy

A roll or two of Combigrid 20/20 Q1 from http://www.naue.com/naue-geosynthetics/combigrid/ and some 300mm of Type1 MOT and thats your floating weather proof surface.

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/cut-gate thread resurrection

7 YEARS AGO (beat that then)

bloke at bottom of thread didnt seem too chuffed about bogs

erosion (and loss) of peat is a problem,

For who, you? How is it your problem? You don't actually have any stake in the land other than being granted permission to use it.

Peat is about 90% carbon. Its erosion leads to oxidation, which releases carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, which means that peat erosion is contributing to global warming. Its well documented on the internet!

philxx1975 - Member
...You don't actually have any stake in the land

i live downstream of this enormous rain-catchment area, it's management is very much my business.

i live downstream of this enormous rain-catchment area, it's management is very much my business.

lets make it about you eh? Plenty of people live downstream special petal.

What exactly is your point philxx1975?

I don't. For me it's more about

1) the protection of the peak
2) the reputation of mountain bikers

In fact, pretty much what we say in the intro to the booklet.

Simple really.

philxx1975 said something stupid.

My killfile list now has three inhabitants.

😀

problem solved people will still be up there walking

This is why we're hoping the booklet goes further. It's not just bikes causing the perceived problem. It can't just be bikers determining what the potential future of those bits should be

This is why we're hoping the booklet goes further. It's not just bikes causing the perceived problem. It can't just be bikers determining what the potential future of those bits should be

Has anyone ever actually seen horse riders up there? Not a loaded question, just wondering. Similarly on Jacob's Ladder.

Has anyone ever actually seen horse riders up there? Not a loaded question, just wondering. Similarly on Jacob's Ladder.

Slightly OT (but when's that ever stopped STW?) - a friend who is well into horses has a map of The Dales with each BW colour coded according to how suitable it is to take her horses along. So those marked red are bog fests, etc. I'd imagine the horsey crowd in the Peak will have worked out something similar and shared it amongst themselves.

Generally horse riders are looking for the same things we are: a route with a decent surface that avoids traffic.

I've seen horses up there once, and you do occasionally see their tracks, though I've not seen any in the last year.

I did see some motorbikers up there midweek last summer, they'd cleverly snapped their number plates in half or unscrewed them so I couldn't report them. Apparently they were going up to Derwent Edge.

I know about 10-15 years ago motorbikers were up there quite a bit but judging by the tracks it's a lot less common now. Might still be worth looking into motorbike gates at either end, though, especially if Type 1 is the proposed solution to the bogs of doom as they'd tear it apart very quickly.

do we have any figures about how long MTBers and walkers will take to wear the mountain away until it's flat? 😐

https://www.imba.com/resources/research/trail-science/natural-resource-impacts-mountain-biking

I'm sure you could do the maths from some of the research there. I'd guess around 10 million years. 9 accounting for the invention of Strava 😉

I have only ever seen horses on three separate occasions up on the top in all the years I've been using it. There is an area in the Langsett Barn car park that has been set up for horse boxes and horses but only seen it in use on once.

I've never seen a horse up there. Having said that, the path is on the Peak Horsepower Kinder Loop so it's a a route of particular interest + they have the right to be up there so we should talk to them. As we're trying to!

Hi folks, bubbling this one back up. We're working with Peak District National Park to gather feedback on this so please share with other groups.

The debate so far is brilliant - just what's needed. You can send you comments directly to info@peakdistrictmtb.org too if you like, or on the Ride Sheffield and Peak District MTB facebook pages.