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I've always had a thing for mini velos and owned a few too.
None have ever hit the mark geomnetry wise, so I'm going the custom route with Marino.
This will be a build thread as and when things develop and turn up.
It'll probably be dull and very niche..
So, a few key highlight:
- It's going to be Reynolds 520 frame with 4130 fork. I've opted for fender mounts & gravel mounts on the fork.
- The frame is exrternal routing but with a dropper port to run a 150-180mm ish dropper.
- Boost through axles front and read with sliding dropouts and clearance for 2.8" tyres.
Anyway, here's part 1-
The geometry I've settled for is this, Long/ low/ slack:
It’ll probably be dull and very niche..
Oh no, looks ace, I'll follow with interest.
I've fancied a mini velo for a while, but it would probably have to replace the dedicated commute bike. Your design looks like it has all the practicality that requires. I'll have a Nexus and belt drive for added nicheness though please. 😀
I was contemplating a coaster brake hub and single speed for more beardiness.
I'll definitley run it single speed at some point. Hoping to take it to SS UK champs next year for extra fun.
I've had one on the framebuild "to do" list for a long time (got two other frames I want to make before that so we are probably talking years away yet). Just about got as far as buying some 20" Schwalbe big apples and a Sachs 3 speed coaster hub....
Will be really interesting to know how you find the handling / steering - the stumbling block for me was needing to knock together some kind of prototype with adjustable head angle and fork offset to decide what worked rather than making something hateful. If you get it finished in time for SSUK I might be tempted to dust off the radiator bike 🙂 (survived the Staveley one whichever year that was)
Kind of reminds me of the old Burro Bikes:
I know what you mean! This build has been nigling me for a long time now so I thought enough was enough.
I've tried to be sensible with the geometry, constiantly comparing it to other bikes I like, but hard to know given it's on 20" wheels. No ones really done a mini hardcore hardtail either so difficult to compare. Fingers crossed! If nothing else, I'll be able to take a few people on the journey hopefully.
I should be finished by SSUK I think.. if it is, I'm there! Would love to see the radiator bike 😀 !
Not heard of the Burro, but they look like huge amounts of fun!
Will be really interesting to know how you find the handling / steering – the stumbling block for me was needing to knock together some kind of prototype with adjustable head angle and fork offset to decide what worked rather than making something hateful.
Surely a raleigh shopper folder and various inserts between the two halves is the solution to protoyping.
Nice! I've been having my head turned by the Boom Boat that Stridsland is working on
https://www.instagram.com/stories/highlights/18015235151588054/
I've used Marino for a frame and fork and while I've ridden the frame and it rides fine it is the heaviest steel frame I've come across (I went for Reynolds 725). Marino comms is good until you've confirmed the order and paid but if there are any issues after you receive it you probably won't hear back. They made me a fork to go with the frame but the disc spacing wasn't right and they never replied to my emails so it's unusable. Part of that might have been me trying to get them to make a 135mm front-disc spaced fork but either way it didn't work out. It also weighed 3kg!
XACD in china ( https://www.ti-bikes.com/ ) will do a custom steel frame now, I've had them make me a Ti Truss fork that was very well made so I'd trust them to make something like your mini-velo. The discussion before they make it is done via CAD drawings that are much more accurate than Marino offer. No worries about comms either, Porter from XACD will chase you up relentlessly if you don't reply the next day. I had a quote for a basic steel frame with butted tubing and it was about $500, so not loads more than Marino but I think the quality will be better.
Anyway sorry to bash on Marino, they're definitely a good option for trying funky geo on the cheap but like others I have had issues with their work. I'm getting another custom frame done soon and while I'd love to be able to afford a UK builder I can't so I'll probably go with XACD.
The geometry I’ve settled for is this, Long/ low/ slack:
Well, it'll wheelie easily : )
..wheelie, wheelie easily.
@cokie, might want to check that fork length if you want to fit 2.8 tyres. A 20 x 2.8" tyre is about 280mm radius I think and a steel unicrown fork often has 35 to 40mm crown depth - so 282 to 287mm axle to underside of crown. Could be getting a bit close?
Boom Boat
I love this thing. Looks great fun! I'm just not a fan of how it looks or the steep HA. Other than that it's spot on.
Marino quality
Yeah.. I've read lots about them, so fingers crossed! I didn't realise there was others on the market.
I'm locked in now, so let's see how this pans out!
Easy wheelies
Yup 😀 ! I loved that about my Zeta, so looking forward to the playfulness.. hopefully.
320mm A-C
You could be right.. I'm going to start with some Kenda Slant Six 2.6" which clear on other bikes with 320mm. Hopefully it'll be fine.
I'm locked in now, so no changing..
I’ve bought custom titanium frames from both XACD and Waltly Titanium - I’d go Waltly if they’re still doing custom frames, Porter is just such a PITA to deal with. Waltly frames are better finished/less agricultural.
I’ve bought custom titanium frames from both XACD and Waltly Titanium – I’d go Waltly if they’re still doing custom frames, Porter is just such a PITA to deal with. Waltly frames are better finished/less agricultural.
I dont think Waltly do steel frames though. Would be interested if anyone knows of other custom steel frame builders near the Marino price range.
And yes, Porter is really something, maybe one day I'll have the chutzpah to email colleagues like that.
I chatted with Ted James. Always loved his work! Close to 3x the price. One day I’ll have one of his frames though..
My next challenge is building up my first wheelset! Deciding on specs, but Hope hubs on some sort of BMX rim I think.. Need to work out nipples and spokes too.
For the wheels, with small rims and a decent dish (because of the small rims and boost hubs) they're going to be massively strong. Go for a low spoke count if possible. 28 would be loads.
The Marino 135mm fork disc mount problem is probably because front and rear hubs have a different offset of disc mount to axle end. I guess they just made a fork with 135mm dropout spacing but normal fork disc position.
I had the same but opposite issue using a 100mm front hub on the rear of an oversized balance bike. I did a normal ISO rear dropout where the disc mount is flush with the dropout face and then found the alignment issue - hence the aluminium spacer plate shown below. I'd say 50:50 designer : builder at fault -I was both so can't really complain 🙂
I'm not really a mini velo aficionado, but I do find them interesting. Silly question, do slacker head angles actually suit 20" wheels? Is wheel flop more or less of a thing for them?
If you want a uk builder maybe chat to my mate Jon. He’s built his own minivelo amongst many other things including my tall bike and is great at what he does at and very knowledgeably, I’m sure he’d be happy to share ideas and lessons learnt from his build.
@cookeaa I’ve done a bit of reading around different wheel sizes and geometry and everything suggests it applies across the board.
I’ve not seen anything slacker than 69’ though, but I think that’s mainly because they’ve been setup as urban/road bikes.
@bugpowderdust thanks! I love a tall bike too. Always fancied one but wouldn’t fit into my bike rack. Surprised I’ve not come across his profile.
Currently quoted 2 months for build + 1 month postage time. Hopefully it’ll be a little build project for winter/early spring and then get the miles in once the weathers better.
Marino comms is good until you’ve confirmed the order and paid but if there are any issues after you receive it you probably won’t hear back.
I know Marino can be a bit slow but when I had a small problem with a frame they built me another frame as a replacement.
They also let me keep the original frame which I'm still riding.
The new one is still sat in a box as a spare.
Maybe try them again?
YES!!! I love this kind of thing. Proud owner of two minivelo, a Cannondale Hooligan and a Challenge Urban Camper & always liked the look of the Braasi too though I guess that's more of a mediumvelo.
I actually taught myself to braze so that I could build a minivelo but unfortunately while I was kinda ok at it, I'm flipping terrible at the tube mitering so it never went anywhere other than some very expensive scrap.
Watching this thread with maximum interest.
Silly question, do slacker head angles actually suit 20″ wheels? Is wheel flop more or less of a thing for them?
Good Q I reckon, started wondering about that after I got a Brompton.. You do get a bit more flop for a given trail figure from a small wheel vs a 29", 15% ish. But a larger radius wheel will have a very different geometry to get that same trail figure starting point so it's all in a mix. I think (because the maths that covers this is ok in principle but beyond me in detail) if you compared 2 bikes with the same flop and different wheel sizes, the rate of change of the steerer tube / steering torque the flop creates as you go into a corner will feel different with a smaller radius wheel, but other aspects of the geometries will make much more difference overall.
It's all about how that flop torque feels to you, how much feedback you like and how far the bike can be leaned w/o tucking (more trail = more lean). I think getting a frame made to try your ideas is the way to go, look fwd to hearing how OP gets on here. This bike looks fun - I reckon far more bikes ended up rubbish because of too little trail than from having too much.
@thepodge nice! I love the Hooligan, especially with the lefty. They seem to have gone mad price wise recently. Good investment 😀 ! Would love to build my own frame one day.
@jameso interesting, that all makes sense to me! My Stooge SpeedBomb is probably my most favourtie bike to date, so I was trying to get close to that.
The Hooligan uses standard 26" length forks and a short head tube which would make experimenting with offset a touch easier but does change the whole aesthetic.
I don't know what any of the numbers are on my bikes but the Challenge is a more neutral ride while the Cannondale needs to be kept in check a bit.
The Marino 135mm fork disc mount problem is probably because front and rear hubs have a different offset of disc mount to axle end. I guess they just made a fork with 135mm dropout spacing but normal fork disc position.
I actually wanted the normal fork disc position but they made the fork with rear disc spacing (which does make some sense when it is to fit a 135mm hub) Anyway the fork was so heavy I don't think I'd enjoy riding it anyway (I'm sure a mini-velo fork will be much lighter!). I tried to email them a few times about it but had no response so gave up. The frame they made for me was to spec though, some extra gussets I didn't ask for but the angles were as close to correct as I could measure them.
Lots of excellent conversations on geometry and frame construction over here https://forum.customframeforum.com/ .
@mick_r I'm intrigued/encouraged by that plate fix. I'm wanting to do something similar. I'm just commenting as a place holder should I ever get around to it and have questions
The plate disc mount was part of the second STW balance bike project:
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/happy-christmas-stw-story
I've got the iso disc mount drawing somewhere (should also be online). It is basically a few radial dimensions about the axle, so lots of scope for where you can put it and tricks to work with singlespeed etc.
Oh brilliant, thanks.
I've got a bunch of tabs open on iso and post mount, I think I just didn't actually sit down to read them properly and got a bit confused.
Sorry for the derail @cokie, looking forward to seeing this build progress.
No worries, that’s all interesting! Never knew there was a difference between brake calliper spacing/pattern front and rear.
So, I’ve named the project/bike.. Minimacho.
the decals just arrived. 
Black Friday is turning into a bit of a treasure trove for the build.
- I’ve got a set of SLX brakes & cranks. Managed to pickup a 42t direct mount chainring too.
- Hope hubs, spokes, nipples & hubs just arrived so will start the build on those shortly
Not sure what speed mech/cassette to go for. There’s some clearance issues so can’t go too wide. Currently thinking Zee with a 11-36t 10spd cassette.
Black Friday is turning into a bit of a treasure trove for the build.
- I’ve got a set of SLX brakes & cranks. Managed to pickup a 42t direct mount chainring too.
- Tyres, Hope hubs, spokes, nipples & rims just arrived so will start the build on those shortly
Not sure what speed mech/cassette to go for. There’s some clearance issues so can’t go too wide. Currently thinking Zee with a 11-36t 10spd cassette.
Another option for small wheels is the special short cage 9 speed microshift derailleur.
It's discussed briefly in the Velo Orange Neutrino review. Might help with any clearance issues and I think allows 11-38 cassette.
Interesting! Microshift has passed me by. Wasn't sure on quality and always defaulted to Sram/Shimano.
I can get a full 8spd 11-38t setup for £84, which is remarkable value.
Given my main bike is SS, the gear range should be plenty.
Looks like some nice parts, look forward to seeing the build!
I know Marino can be a bit slow but when I had a small problem with a frame they built me another frame as a replacement.
Maybe try them again?
They just got back to me actually, I had emailed back in March so it took a while. They've asked if I could make the fork work and I've said I can't so I'll see if they can sort it out.
just for interest, one of these popped up on a recent Berm Peak Vid
also using the designed for little wheels supershort Micro shift stuff on my daughters bike and seems pretty good so far.
Wheelset built up- really happy with these! Pro 5 makes a lovely buzzing noise and the 2.6” Slant six tyres fill out nicely.
Pretty much all other parts gathered now. I’m still undecided on drivetrain. Will do a mini video on wheel build and and spec at some point.
@rootes1 - I really like the Itty Bitty, but Kyoot wouldn’t give me the geometry and I have an aversion to QR hubs. Frameset is also more expensive than the Marino.
Cool project! Have you seen this? Builder does some brilliant stuff and is on the LFGSS forum
Vandal metal works were my inspiration when I started brazing. They reframed an old GT LTS and had it at the Glasgow handmade bike show.
Loves those wheels and tyres! shame the Brompton G Line wouldn't accept tyres of this width...
also came across this - also QR though:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/frames/blacksnow-granite-ebb-frame-fork-set-grey-large/
I love Vandal metal works' builds. I first started following him when he was going to use an old damaged biplane Stooge fork in the seatstay of one of his builds. Wish I had the skillset and workshop to do that sort of stuff.
I was actually close to getting a G Line recently on C2W but price, weight & availability put me off. Partly where this project was born. I can still fit this in the backseat of the car with the front wheel off. This build should come in under 30lbs and £1700-ish and be able to handle a lot more abuse.
Heck knows if this will work, but Bicycle Pubes has published his minivelo top 5 for the year. Maybe next year Cokie...
Nice looking wheels - really hard to judge how big (or small) they are without the bike for scale 🙂
Thanks for the Vandal frames link - I did the same as him (the price of a framebuild course buys a good chunk of equipment, brass and tubes to practice with).
I was actually close to getting a G Line recently
Yes, I am interested for the same reason. I have a std Brompton tucked in my little campervan for local bimbling when away, but fancy something more capable. Interested in the G-Line, but weight, price a factor, although not seen one yet to judge. Will pop up to Glasgow at some point and look at a G-Line and a Kinetics. Maybe a mini-velo might work. Small enough to tuck in the van but a better ride than a std Brompton.
Not sure I’d ever want to feature on BP’s page 😀 !
The tyres measure the same size as my 29x2.6” Magic Mary. Centre to top of the tyre is 265mm, so hopefully plenty of clearance for the 320mm a-c fork.
@andy - similar thoughts to me. I started looking at what was around, such as kinetic, but feel like they’re all pretty poor value. This will be higher spec for less and don’t need a true folder.
I tried the wheels on the Stooge to see if I could roll around the estate for a laugh, but no chance. Cranks hit the floor before 6 o’clock and tyres buzz the break hose . Looks fun though.
Not quite the same but I think it was someone from on here that rode a Santa Cruz with wide 24" wheels. It looked a lot of fun.
My first update from Marino! It’s looking good. BB drop looks quite aggressive and the back end looks mega short. Should be fun!
I quite like how they have joined the SS to the ST. Pleasant surprise.
Im promised some more photos in the coming days and then I’ll do a little video update with the build spec.
I was chasing the same dream with mini-velos a while back. They were not any fattish tyres worth considering from a rolling resistance aspect back then, but I found the AMP design fork on my Dahon adequate for rough surfaces.
It's spent a fair bit of its life on what we'd now call gravel
Excitement is building! Would be really interested to know what the steering is like (can never make up my mind what I'd use head angle / offset for a mini).
Interesting not to be using all that head tube for directly mounted rack. But saying that, you have probably made the right decision. I tried one on a 700c frame this year and should have used beefier top and down tubes - it all got scarily speed wobbly with a bit of payload and some rear panniers......
Nice to see epicyclo. I thought of you the other week when buying a Sturmey 3 speed with the rotary shift mechanism for a project ?
@cokie. Good to see adjustable dropouts. Not many bikes with the option for singlespeed on hubgears these days. If you're undecided about your optimum steering geometry, why not build a fork with 2 dropout positions? One for loaded, the other for unloaded. That was a feature on an old British motorbike I had (Panther 600) and it was instructive the difference the small amount of adjustment made.
Your design reminds me of the Burro which used 20" wheels with 3". Unfortunately it was ahead of its time and just faded away. https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/1300949/a >
Another offroad minivelo was the Dahon Groove with 2" tyres and suspension front and rear. It didn't catch on either and was soon discontinued. I gave mine a fair bit of exploring use, but found my fatbike more practical for the sort of riding I like to do.
@mick_r been hors de combat due to slowing down enough for age to catch up on me. 🙂
Nice bikes above ^^. I keep getting asked if this is a folding bike. I'm just trying to explain it's a normal bike with smaller wheels.
The fork rack is just a preferance. You're probably right that it might feel off, but not planning on any heavy transport.. maybe the odd keg.
My part 2 is up now:
I don't think that the Zee shifter will work with the Deore M5130 mech which is linkglide. Not 100% sure but I suspect that is the case.
Thanks @cerrado-tu-ruido ! When did this get so complicated?
I'll see how the Zee behaves, otherwise I guess I'll need the Deore M5130 shifter (which looks hideous & cheap).
As an aside another option for custom frames is https://armourcustombicycles.com/.
I have seen some of his work and it is beautiful. No idea on cost
Frameset now complete! 3-4 week wait on shipping now.. gives me time to sort the drivetrain compatibility issue. Tempted to go Zee mech & 11-36t cassette instead.
Saint mechs are spendy. This U600 10 speed shifter will work with the 5130 derailleur and is much nicer looking than the Deore 5130 shifter.
https://fawkes-cycles.co.uk/shimano-cues-sl-u6000-shift-lever-right-hand-10-speed-p33235
Sorry for the confusion, upon further reading, you should be ok, try the Saint shifter first. The cable pull for cues/linkglide 10 speed shifters is very similar to Shimano MTB 10 speed and the cues/linkglide derailleurs have the same pull ratio as Shimano MTB 10/11/12. Pics from drivetrainbuilder.com
So, here's the Minimacho!
All built up, completed a shakedown ride and a gravel 12 miler.
It's awesome! Very please with how it fells. Exactly how I thought it would.
Essentially a Stooge Speedbomb but more playful.
Doing some more rides and then editing together a little video.
It's not been smooth sailing with Marino... still seeing how it'll get resolved.
For now, pictures:
Nice. Looking forward to the next, (final?) YouTube installment.
Looks amazing, although that rear mech looks very vulnerable so close to the ground.
Sorry for the ignorance, but is there a point to it, apart from 'just because'? Not that there's anything wrong with that, but just wondering whether it has a specific use case?
When working out your gearing for this type of bike, presumably you take into account the smaller wheels and the affect this has on final gearing?
What a stupid and pointless bike.
I love it.
Don't know why but it just looks like the kind of bike that'd want to take you to the local brewery every time you got it out the garage.🍻
Looks amazing, although that rear mech looks very vulnerable so close to the ground.
I hadn't noticed that, actually looks like the bottom jockey wheel might hit the tyre in first!
Don't know why but it just looks like the kind of bike that'd want to take you to the local brewery every time you got it out the garage.🍻
I have a dawes kingpin in the basement. When i lived in glasgow and Edinburgh despite having the obligatory fixed gear and an early gravel bike and a single speed rigid mountainbike... The kingpin was ridden more and harder.
The folding raleigh 20 before it was the same. And at the bub i would fold it up and leave it in a pile.
Never stolen... Until it was taken out a close.
Great to see it finally built up. There is a Microshift clutch mech that is specially designed to give ground clearance with 20" wheels:
https://www.microshift.com/news/introducing-super-short/
I know it is hard to describe, but how does it steer?
I'm sensing a tale about the Marino experience - the "seeing how it gets resolved" sounds like something not being right.....
@cokie Looking forward to seeing pics of it in use. A neat little weapon.
Cheers all! Trails are dusty so I've managed 28 miles so far and it's definitely smile inducing.
Sorry for the ignorance, but is there a point to it, apart from 'just because'? Not that there's anything wrong with that, but just wondering whether it has a specific use case?
I've had a few mini velos and really like the playful handling. Also easier to move around for storage and transport in the car.
Primarily it's a 'just because' bike. They challenge you, especially offroad so makes some more mundane rides fun.
When working out your gearing for this type of bike, presumably you take into account the smaller wheels and the affect this has on final gearing?
Yes, used a few gear calculators to work out what would work for me. I spend far too much time on a single speed, so this is a pretty luxuries gear range. For more urban riding I've got a 44t and some Schwalbe Super Moto 2.4"s.
Looks amazing, although that rear mech looks very vulnerable so close to the ground.
I hadn't noticed that, actually looks like the bottom jockey wheel might hit the tyre in first!
It's close- about 15mm from the tyre in the granny gear. I've done 28 miles offroad now and no issues. Including a crash. I think the clutch makes a huge difference. I think the bigger issue will be mud in winter.
Long term I will go for MicroShift Advent though for peace of mind.
Don't know why but it just looks like the kind of bike that'd want to take you to the local brewery every time you got it out the garage.
I'll be doing that this afternoon. 8 miles pretty much all uphill (500ft) to the pub and then roll back home.
I know it is hard to describe, but how does it steer?
Really hard to describe- the geo is quite long and slack, like my speedbomb, so it feels familiar, equally it's really snappy due to the small wheels. At low speed it's fantastic to climb as I can pick my way up a gravel/rutted trails easily and it accelerate well, but I did a particularly rocky and descent that was terrifyingly fun(?). I've ridden it thousands of times on other MTBs- always off the brakes and pushing on. This is the first time I've had to brake. Wide bars help keep things straight, but with the small wheels and short back end it becomes more nervous and snappy the faster you go. Need to stay lose, especially with rocks and ruts pushing the wheel around. I'm getting used to the short chainstays too. Far to easy to over rotate and have a big off. Overall it requires far more delicacy with placing and steering.
Bits to change/adjust:
- Dropper post; I want more drop. When I'm messing around the saddle intrudes a bit. I think I can get away with 170mm.
- Bars: I've got a set of Stooge Junker 100mm rise bars- not 100% sure on riding position. Might find some low/mid rise BMX bars to try and get another 20-30mm rise.