[Closed] Cup & Cone bearings - how lovely!

Yes,I used to love servicing them back in the day.

The only problem was if the cup/ cone surfaces became pitted. Even then you could coax some more life out of them.

Another fan here.

I love that you can carefully take them apart, and carefully put them together again. No hammers required.

I'm surprised we haven't had loads of cartridge lovers dissing us cone heads! I really don't have a problem with c&c. They actually seem to last longer than cartridge bearings and are much easier to restore to health

I'll do it 🙂 my cartridge bearings last many years and are easier to replace than C&C. Done both lots, I know which I prefer.

Are there any decent square taper cup/cone bottom brackets these days? Think the last one I had came with cotter pins!

Bike shops worst nightmare

Customer "I've had a go at doing the bearings myself"

Usually resulting in missing parts or the cones being the wrong way around or the axle much longer on the one side as its been but back in the wrong side then the cone adjusted to make it fit

the latest "indexed" shimano offerings are a real pleasure to set up the older locking bolt version could sometimes be a bit fiddly to get spot on.

Only bearings I had that never needed adjusting and never wore out were unsealed cup and cone chorus hubs with a grease port.

are easier to replace than C&C.

I'll race ya!
I'll be handing you your ass on a plate though, have no doubt about that...... 🙂

Where do you live? I'm gathering not in amongst the grinding-paste-esque filth of the north west of England?

I wouldn't entertain using them in the drive-chain disintegrating slop that I generally ride through. Sealed cartridge bearings all the way. It's not like they're difficult to replace when they're nackered. Which is far less frequently

Based on experience I'm very tempted to go XT for some new hubs. It'll be a change from the ubiquitous Hopes!

I'll race ya!
I'll be handing you your ass on a plate though, have no doubt about that......

Aye Up, gods gift to the bike trade has landed, swoon!.

As much as I'm a cup n cone fan I'm not sure I have them on my winter mtb.

But the xtr hubs on my winter comuter come touring bike have been spot on for years. Despite just getting used in the crappy weather then left in the shed for the rest of the year

PP - including BOTH bearing surfaces? I can change a pair of cartridge bearings in under 5 mins and that includes all adjusting and both bearing surfaces. there is no way on earth you can do that with C&C

binners - Member
...I wouldn't entertain using them in the drive-chain disintegrating slop that I generally ride through.

Your local trails sound crap 😉

(#saveittillsummer etc.)

Give me Mavics with bearings that last the lifetime of the wheel any day.
Got a pair of cheapo Crossrides on my singlespeed, have never been touched, bike used to be used daily, in all weathers for dog walking and the bearings are still smooth as new. Faffing around with cone spanners? No ta.

PP - including BOTH bearing surfaces? I can change a pair of cartridge bearings in under 5 mins and that includes all adjusting and both bearing surfaces. there is no way on earth you can do that with C&C

Have you seen Big Al in Wheelcraft work? He'd have it done in 3 while drinking his coffee and chatting.

I'm a big fan - XT hubs have done me well and are cheap to buy and maintain. You can get a complete rebuild kit with a free pen holder for £27!!

Free pen holder lol

Cup and cone looked after well are lovely. It's a nice job to service them - very satisfying.

Keeping all the required spares for a headset, BB, hubs and pedals was simply a matter of 3 or 4 sizes of ball bearings.

Less nasty suprises as long as you stayed on top of maintenance too.

I just serviced the cup and cones in the cheapy Diatech hubs of my long suffering Halo's. Doing that regularly with a good bit of webbing grease has kept them in good shape.

I also clean my sealed hub and BB bearings out every now and again. Getting the grit and mud out and regreasing them does wonders for their lifespan.

I'll be handing you your ass on a plate though, have no doubt about that......

How often do you have to do it?

It's a nice job to service them - very satisfying.

You service hubs? How quaint.

I've tried to service them, but they're beyond my limited mental capacity. I can't do "tight but not too tight, do it by feel" things.

Whenever I've tried they've either been too tight to spin freely, it at all or so loose they wobble. There only seems a millionth of a degree of a turn between the two.

molgrips - Member
How often do you have to do it?

Once a year if you want them to last for the rest of time, every other year if you're happy to accept gradual deterioration over a decade or so...

I'm actually [i]trying[/i] to kill the less-than-deore 475 hubs on my commuter, after 5 years, and something like 25,000km, they're now a bit 'rumbly', but I've serviced worse, there's years left in those hubs...

Astonishing really.

orangeboy - Member
As much as I'm a cup n cone fan I'm not sure I have them on my winter mtb

LOL at Peter Poddy, couple of years in the bike trade and he's gods gift...

I'm with PP on this one, especially a rear hub, doubly so if it's been looked after and the drive side cone doesn't need to come off the axle.

4x cartridge bearings (which if worn enough to have significant play could be a PITA to get out as the inners will knock out leaving the outer still in there, blind against the hub) and retrieving pawls and springs from wherever they end up under the fridge.

Vs

2x c&c bearings and a modular freehub that attaches with one bolt.

And bessides, if looked after you never need to replace them, just wash in petrol, re-pack with grease and adjust them again.

I've tried to service them, but they're beyond my limited mental capacity. I can't do "tight but not too tight, do it by feel" things.

Whenever I've tried they've either been too tight to spin freely, it at all or so loose they wobble. There only seems a millionth of a degree of a turn between the two.

Trick is to get them as adjusted as close as possible and tighten the locknut/cone, then nip up the locknut with the other end in a vice to tighten the whole lot the last little bit.

My brother witnessed the end of the axle of his Hope Ti Glide being beaten with a hammer by a bike shop owner of many years to get the bearing out..

He learned to work on it himself after that.

molgrips - Member
You service hubs? How quaint.

As opposed to paying someone else to do it, or throwing them away?

Seems sensible to me.

What I do miss is hubs with a grease nipple , wtb grease guard and campy.

That and people selling the cup on its own without the free pen holder

molgrips - Member
You service hubs? How quaint.

So are some of the hubs I service... '95 & '96 XT are some of my more recent cup and cone ones which get my attention.

I also sometimes renovate unwanted bikes that can still be rescued and find a good home for them. Some of them are only a step above a BSO and even now come with cup and cone hubs.

P-Jay - Member

Whenever I've tried they've either been too tight to spin freely, it at all or so loose they wobble. There only seems a millionth of a degree of a turn between the two.

I appreciate that PeterPoddy is enaging in hyperbolex above, but assuming that you can service them fast with experience, is it just a case of knowing the cone tightness by feel so you can twiddle them up and that's it done straight away? Always found it an exasperating process of trial and error.

When I was working a a bike shop there was one particular wheel brand (Oval Concepts) whose cup and cone bearings would last a year and a half tops without servicing. After than they would be so pitted that the wheel was a write off. It suited me though. Most of the time the customer would just tell us to keep the old wheel so I would strip them for the rims and bladed spokes and build them up again with someone who had knackered their rim 🙂

Done C&C and likewise cage bearings on headsets in crud conditions. No thanks.

Sure they're serviceable without having to buy new bearing (may need new balls though), but it's extra faff and likely a right mess. On top of that C&C requires fiddling to get the preload right and then the QR has to be done up right each ride to get the loading right so it's not loose, but not too tight the wheel doesn't spin.

Did a c&c rear hub yesterday, as above its great when it all goes back together and you nip it up juuust right. It's definitely more satisfying than just whacking some new cartridge bearings in.

I was just thinking as for the 4th year in a row I've not touched any of my hubs how much I'd love to be messing around with some cone spanners

How has someone saying how they enjoyed servicing cup and cone hubs needed to become a critique of them and the people that service them....? Sheesh!

One of my watches I have to wind up. Let me guess the responses... Battery quartz watches are 'better' because you haven't had to touch it in 4 years or why didn't I invest in an automatic...

LOL at Peter Poddy, couple of years in the bike trade and he's gods gift...

To be fair he was an excellent mechanic for years before he changed careers. We've both been servicing cup and cone for 25 years so you do kinda get used to it!

A quality cup and cone is designed to last and be serviceable. Cartridge bearing hubs are designed so that they are easy to fix when they fail.

For the price there's not much that can touch an XT hub for longevity. I've got some which are 20 years old and still like new.

Last time I had cup and cone bearings, replacement cups were not available (though clearly a simple press-in part), so if you had let your's get pitted and rusty, that was it. Have things changed?

Objectively, I'm not sure that C&C is better than cartridge bearings. That's why the mountain bike has Hope stuff.

The bikes I've been tinkering with are form the 1930s / 1940s.

Last time I had cup and cone bearings, replacement cups were not available (though clearly a simple press-in part), so if you had let your's get pitted and rusty, that was it. Have things changed?

The cups only get pitted if you leave them too long between services, or do them up too tight and the bearings score the surface, the cones (being smaller) always suffer first. TBH though if they did need doing it would probably be a comparable effort to just rebuild the wheel by that point.

For the most part thoughI get ~2 years our of rims (either worn out or that's the mean time between failures due to rocks etc) though so actually having hubs that last the lifetime of a wheel is all that's required.

A quality cup and cone is designed to last and be serviceable

So are cartridge bearing hubs. They are a solid lump of aluminium, that's it. With C&C the races will eventually wear.

The interference fit of a "sealed" bearing hub is also a wearing diameter. Depending on how badly its made, what the surface hardness is like and how hamfisted the mechanic is they *may* only be good for a few years.
Not to mention the damage a seized or collapsed bearing might do, and as service on sealed bearing isn't actually a service, it's repair, it happens with some regularity. If you abuse a C&C hub as you would a cartridge bearing hub, you'll do more damage though. Cos that is what it is, waiting until it's *actually* worn out and rumbly.

Saying that, i have both. And have worn out both.

Cup and cone hubs roll much better than cartridge bearing hubs.

I have them on all my bikes if Shimano made them with serviceable freehubs.

davidtaylforth - Member 
Cup and cone hubs roll much better than cartridge bearing hubs.

I call balls on that 😛

Got cartridge bearing wheels that spin for hours (slight exaggeration) if left to spin in a stand, just the same as any C&C I've had. Just that the wheels have been untouched for several years and they still roll smooth (even pulled apart to check and clean, only to find it was virtually like new).

There's no technical difference to the rolling. It's balls in a race. Just one is in a sealed unit and the other isn't. Trade offs with each. Unsealed they are wrecked far more by weather and washing, but yes you can just service the stuff without buying replacements if done in time, but you have to do it far more frequently. Bonus though is wheels are typically much cheaper.

[i]I'm not sure that C&C is better than cartridge bearings.[/i]

Let's see - a bike with cup and cone bearings:
[img] [/img]

Sealed:
[img] [/img]

Yeah, it's hard to say really. Wonder which one has the best forks..?

We both know that's a crap comparison DezB. Leave the OP to have had a satisfying and enjoyable day fiddling with bikes and not piss on his chips.

Cup and cone bearings and not always unsealed. Labyrinth seals on c&c are less resistance than the contact seals used on the cartridge units.

DezB - have you seen many BSOs with Dura Ace, Record or XTR hubs?

I bet the conversation in the Shinano R&D dept went a bit like:
Should we just bash some off the shelf generic bits into a tube and sell it as a hub?
Nah, it'll be too high quality. Could we do something more expensive and complicated?
What, like make the bearings, races etc ourselves?
Yeah that sounds difficult. Is it worse though?
Yeah it's worse. Really rubbish. We need to spend millions on tooling and do all the QC in house though.
Brilliant. Let's do it.

thisisnotaspoon>>>...
For the most part thoughI get ~2 years our of rims (either worn out or that's the mean time between failures due to rocks etc) though so actually having hubs that last the lifetime of a wheel is all that's required.

[i]DezB - have you seen many BSOs with Dura Ace, Record or XTR hubs?[/i]

Nope, none of my bikes have any of them, but I have just bought a bike with XT hubs and within a few months had to buy a new set of bloody spanners cos they're all different sizes to all the old c&c spanners in my toolbox. And had to adjust them already. I just think they're crap and outdated. As on prev page, cheap set of sealed bearings, no hassle at all.

(Post with bike comparison wasn't entirely serious, as any fool could tell!)

[i]Leave the OP to have had a satisfying and enjoyable day fiddling with bikes and not piss on his chips.[/i]
That would make for a short and unintersting thread...hmm?

Except cartridges are not that cheap really.
I've killed a overly cheap set in my Hope rear hub in a few months.
Son's bike need new bearings front and rear - £50+ for them...

Pro 2 evo inner freehub bearings on a brand new hub lasted a week (500km) their replacement lasted a similar number of miles over a longer period mind....

Alfine cup and cones lasted 4 years of commuting with only an annual grease and adjust. Not even a full clean

I have and like both, tbh.

I refuse to perform acts of violent incompetence on something as beautiful as a Hope hub, so I have to pay someone else to do it.

I can fix Shimano myself, and the initial saving is nice too.

Deore on the latest bike.
Weighs a ton, not as well sealed as XT but has the older, bigger bearings.
LX had both the bigger bearings and better sealing but I can't see disc versions anymore.

The Deore has been absolutely fine btw, think it was about £25.00.

matt_outandabout - Member 
I've killed a overly cheap set in my Hope rear hub in a few months.

Ah yes, the awesome Hope. Because basically easy to service, i.e. replace bearings. Why do they need servicing so often though? Sure, easy, but why?

DT Swiss, not needing bearing replacement in years (decent wheels that is, not the budget ones). It's all down to the hub seals, not the bearings.

Why do they need servicing so often though?

Honestly, mine last years. Like five or more.

Yeah my current set are about 4 years old and never touched. Few bearings in others over the years but simple with the the right tools.
Shimano seem to want to hang on to their point of difference despite the world moving on as usual. I think when they launched saith they had cup and cinema alongside sealed cartridges for some strange reason

Happy with either, would probably have had a preference for sealed until recently getting some Fulcrums which are cup and cone but very nice quality.

Original Saint was still cup and cone but with replaceable everything including both bearing surfaces.

Cup and cone spreads the load better in the rear axle as the axle is supported at either end, rather than near the middle on the DS of a cartridge bearing hub (Hope axles don't last well for partly this reason), the bearings take cornering loads better as they are an angular contact arrangement, and as mentioned (but disputed above), they have less drag due to non-contact seals.

Downside is some spanner time, but I've no idea why people find it so tricky to correctly adjust the preload? Same principle as a headset.

That said, I've got DT 240s and 350s all my bikes 😉

[quote="deadkenny"]I call balls on thatYou can call it what you want, but he's not wrong.

Typical rear hub (cartridge) will have 4 bearings worth of drag when pedaling, each bearing with 2 seals. (And it's the seals that produce *most* of the drag.) Shimano will have two bearings, and two seals. Total.

A cartridge bearing that spins really really freely is probably a) underfilled, one good way to reduce drag, b) specced with rubbish seals (another good way to reduce drag, many ceramics are specced like this) or c) about to fail (seals worn out).

Whether the actual amount of drag is an issue is up to you.

Add a grease port to your c&c hubs and sorted. Easy maintenance.

Downside is some spanner time, but I've no idea why people find it so tricky to correctly adjust the preload?

It's not tricky, it's just another job to have to do. I want minimum maintenance. Life is short enough as it is.

Funnily enough the only bearings I have had to adjust regularly were my Power tap ones. They were cartridge but for some reason held in place with a c&c arrangement. Kept coming loose. Well - every few years. Never actually replaced them in 8 or so years though.

😕 How is one minimum maintenance and the other not.

Both need a quick check over once a year and a service every now and again.

Or is it as your favourite tool is a hammer?

ghostlymachine - Member 
Whether the actual amount of drag is an issue is up to you.

And likely unnoticeable to 99% of people.

[i]Same principle as a headset.[/i]

Headset? Nobody still uses cup & cone headsets, do they??

And likely unnoticeable to 99% of people.

TBH, the main reason C&C isn't used more is that tooling up costs 6 or 7 figures, in addition to the 6 or 7 figures spent tooling up to make the actual shell in the first place. Then all the design tasks, and assembly etc. Cartridge are a cheap, easily automatable alternative.

Which customers can change using a hammer.

Headset? Nobody still uses cup & cone headsets, do they??

No, but I do adjust the pre-load, just like my C&C hubs.

Both need a quick check over once a year and a service every now and again.

From what people are saying C&c seem to need more servicing than I give my Hopes. I have C&C on my commuter that I have not touched, and also had XTR on my race bike which were great but not used frequently.

And what's wrong with hammers? For me, simplicity of servicing is a positive design feature not a negative one.

From what people are saying C&c seem to need more servicing than I give my Hopes.

I love Hope and their proprietary bearing sizes. Not exactly a cheap job, is it?

And what's wrong with hammers?

What else would you use to tap bearings out of seats? Slide hammer?

Not exactly a cheap job, is it?

It's been that long since I bought any I honestly have no idea how much they cost 🙂

Bearing press.

Anyway my hopes needed more maintainance than my candc alfine.....

Which reminds me that hub is still in bits because I don't trust it anymore and went back to an old hub after 2 sets of inside freehub bearings in as many weeks from new

@DezB - all standard headsets require bearing preload adjustments regardless of bearing type.

And yes, plenty people still use loose ball headsets. Perhaps not out of choice, but they use them nonetheless.

It's been that long since I bought any I honestly have no idea how much they cost

About £40 for the rear bearing kit. Which is more than an XT hub.

And what's wrong with hammers?
Nothing. But not the right tool for the job. Not really the right tool for any job on a bike.

Removing an external headset needs a hammer. I can be fairly certain anyone who says you don't need a hammer for any bike jobs has never worked as a bike mechanic on cheap nasty BSOs. Or old retro bikes. Or neglected nice bikes.

sillyoldman - Member

@DezB - all standard headsets require bearing preload adjustments regardless of bearing type.

And yes, plenty people still use loose ball headsets. Perhaps not out of choice, but they use them nonetheless.

Don't particularly disagree with you, or anyone else, saying they're easy to service - I'm sure they are with experience. It's just not the unbolloxable job you're suggesting, whereas a cartridge change pretty much is.

I find it quite satisfying changing freehub cartridge bearings with just some hot water & thumb power - no lump hammer required!

But the feeling when you get c&c hubs adjusted just right, first time is wildly smug inducing.

The problem with the Hope hubs compared with the Shimanos is that they're a totally different proposition, and in reality you're just moving the wearable part about - Hope you have to clean/regrease the freewheel periodically or you'll need a new hub (or to send it back to Hope anyway), and Shimano the cup and cones are similar.

I'd like to know the cost of a new XT freehub to compare with the cost of all the bearings in a Hope hub (the 2 the hub actually spins on are quite reasonably priced but tend to outlast the freehub in the newer hubs).

Other cartridge bearing hubs have a similar arrangement to the shimanos, just with cartridge bearings on. I've swapped bearings on these (and front hubs) far quicker than I'd be able to properly clean and regrease a cup and cone hub. Hitting stuff with a hammer isn't "nice" though.

I prefer Hope, but I wish they lasted like they used to when we all ran QR hubs.