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Just posted..
Guessing a carbon 29'er
Yeah, that'll be the inevitable Aether 29er, but in a very surprising (for Bird) Carbon flavor.
Not sure how I feel about Bird doing carbon. I'm sure they have their reasons, but durable, well made, fairly priced alu bikes are sort of their thing.
schmung
Member
Not sure how I feel about Bird doing carbon. I’m sure they have their reasons, but durable, well made, fairly priced alu bikes are sort of their thing.
My guess is they'll do a durable, well made, fairly priced carbon bike.
I had a Aether 9 on my "hope it's a thing next year when I'm bike shopping" list but in Carbon it'll likely be out of my price range unless i down spec things like suspension.
The ace thing about Bird is that you can build up a bike with the best suspension and few little compromises here and there (e.g. 4 Pot Deore brakes) for about 3k. Making it out of carbon probably means you are looking at more like 4k.
I'll be happy to be wrong though.
Yeah i'm a little concerned it will be carbon only. Theres environmental issues as well, so I'm told. Apparently if you bork a carbon frame, thats it - it's landfill.
I'm more concerned it will be out of my price range and I can't have one though 😉
I'm sure Ben will chip in at some point...
Would probably be interested, if I wasn't exceptionally happy with my current bikes.
I think I've seen Ben contributing to threads to explain that the cost to bike brands of alu vs carbon is nowhere near the price differential usually seen in the respective RRPs.
So perhaps Bird are planning a similarly small upcharge from their alu frame prices?
I seem to remember Ben making a comment along the lines of carbon not actually being any more expensive than aluminium to produce too. Not that my memory is all that reliable and it was probably "not much more" with "much" being undefined. It will be interesting to see what they come up with though. Look on the bight side; at least it's not an eBike 🙂
Wish it was a bluff...for some reason I've a real issue with carbon bikes - they can't be recycled or reused once done...it is a single purpose finite life thing.
I suspect plenty metal bikes also go the way of the skip but I'd hope some of that can be salvaged...not possible with carbon.
I think I'm entering my hippie stage of life as given how amazing outside is just now ( clear skies, clear water, amazing wildlife sounds), it is making me think more about keeping it like that for as long as possible...carbon bikes just jar with me as they don't and won't.
I suspect it'll look very nice and ride very well though.
Not sure how I feel about Bird doing carbon. I’m sure they have their reasons, but durable, well made, fairly priced alu bikes are sort of their thing.
It may not come to pass.
It's a bit of a surprise, on one hand every brand evolves (not your Orange) to higher technology standards and expands their offering, on the other the rest of the Industry seems to be getting back into Alu because they realise not everyone wants to spend another grand.
I seem to remember Ben making a comment along the lines of carbon not actually being any more expensive than aluminium to produce too. Not that my memory is all that reliable and it was probably “not much more” with “much” being undefined.
No, I can remember some figures but not quite clearly enough to repeat.
But I do remember it, because it was a surprisingly small differential in the landed price to a UK customer.
I test rode their 29er in 150mm flavour. Was way over biked for me. Would love to see this in 120mm version, would make for a very rapid and capable Xc bike.
Apparently if you bork a carbon frame, thats it – it’s landfill.
Carbon is very easily repaired.
Slight diversion, as bike values have been mentioned- I'm tempted by a Bird or Stanton, Bird's especially as they're not too far to book a demo at Swinley and appear to be better vfm. Is there a practical reason for this?
fairly priced alu bikes are sort of their thing.
I'm not sure they're really that much cheaper now though? Just seems like no one else makes aluminium frames to really compare them to anymore.
Yeah i’m a little concerned it will be carbon only. Theres environmental issues as well, so I’m told.
Whilst 'not great' (it's basically partial burnt plastic fibers encased in more plastic), aluminium production is hardly great (or steel).
But the energy required to make the bike is tiny. Last time this came up I worked out that the difference between the best and worst options is less than a round trip to a trail center.
Apparently if you bork a carbon frame, thats it – it’s landfill.
Same is generally true for steel and aluminium.
Aluminum being a PITA to weld.
Steel just generally being expensive to repair and re-paint at UK prices. Molgrips had his Salsa repaired last year and it looks great, but with a level head you could have just bought a 2nd hand one to replace it for the same price.
Carbon frames OTOH can quite easily be examined with an ultrasound scope and repaired. Typically I think prices like £300 get quoted for repairing quite substantial holes in frame tubes (i.e. the sort of thing that would have written off a metal frame is generally repairable).
Carbon is easier to repair than aluminium. It's also recyclable. Though realistically, a bike frame probably does go to landfill because that's where its owner will send it if it breaks. Thing is, it's really not that big a deal if it does- there's just not that many carbon bikes out there, compared to other waste
On the value for money front mentioned above with Stanton and Bird mentioned in the same post - they are quite different things in terms of production.
Stanton are steel and Bird are aluminium (unless the new 9 is carbon) and you almost always pay a premium for good quality steel frames. With hardtails I get why you’d pay more for the more forgiving ride of steel but on a full suss I don’t really see it.
That said, Stanton and Cotic are both in type same of bike / material and Cotic always seem to give you better grade steel for less money than Stanton when I’ve looked.
Might be worth you adding in the Cotic Flare / Flaremax if you’re after short travel fs bike. Personally the extra cost of the Flare over the Aether 7 wasn’t worth it so I recently got an Aether 7.
I'm currently flip-flopping over the Flare vs Aether choice. I guess you could say that you're supporting UK industry with the Flare, as the front triangle is made in the UK.
“”Apparently if you bork a carbon frame, thats it – it’s landfill.”
Same is generally true for steel and aluminium.
Aluminum being a PITA to weld.
Steel just generally being expensive to repair and re-paint at UK prices.”
Old steel and aluminium frames are never landfill. Both can be melted down and made into new steel or aluminium things.
I agree that carbon fibre is much easier to repair than most realise - I did a thesis in composite repair years ago. But carbon fibre doesn’t recycle well.
That said, Stanton and Cotic are both in type same of bike / material and Cotic always seem to give you better grade steel for less money than Stanton when I’ve looked.
The Stanton mainframe is hand-welded in-house (not sure about the aluminium rear end) and they’re painted in house and have loads of customisation options which adds to the cost. Pinned TV on YouTube have done factory visits and interviews for anyone that interested and Dan Stanton certainly seems clued up.
I love the look of the frames, but the weight puts me off a bit as I use my 160mm full sus for everything, so I’m happy with my carbon Intense which is 13.5 kg.
I was sceptical of carbon, having ridden some in the early 2000s that creaked like made, but I’ve had no issues and appreciate the responsive and stuff feel. The only downside is having to budget for an Invisiframe kit!
But carbon fibre doesn’t recycle well.
But it does burn, so equally it's not going to end up in landfill if the LA has an incinerator.
Knowing that your aluminium frame can be melted down and turned into a coke can is nice, but really the amount of energy saved by doing that is pissing in the wind compared to driving around the country to ride it or a trip abroad!
I suppose it depends on where the car on frame is being made.
Some of the manufacturers have piles of new trashed/reject frames in landfill - there was an article either on here or PB about it.
the amount of energy saved by doing that is pissing in the wind compared to driving around the country to ride it
Exactly this. Aluminium is around 10kg CO2 / kg Aluminium (2kg in the EU - see https://ec.europa.eu/clima/sites/clima/files/ets/allowances/docs/bm_study-aluminium_en.pdf) - so your 3kg bike frame is 30kg CO2 = 15 litres of petrol or 1 kg of (conventionally farmed) beef.
Plenty of things to focus on before you worry about the material your bike frame is made from.
But then we don't hold photos of scrapped metal bikes against the material?
Some of the manufacturers have piles of new trashed/reject frames in landfill – there was an article either on here or PB about it.
If it was a significant proportion of the production they'd go bankrupt.
I'm no fan of carbon frames, the cost to benefit is way off one them, but let's be objective. People take these absolute, simplistic stances on the eco footprint of things without taking into consideration the whole story. You see this everywhere, like saying electric cars are zero emission...
The material alone is only a small part of the equation. Manufacturing location and the company's policies are enough to offset material differences.
And, like some already mentioned, metal frames are also likely to end up in landfill and it's not like people are actually repairing them...
By the way, some of the pictures of huge piles of frames/bikes we see around are from the crash of the bike share bubble in China
This has certainly turned into an interesting thread; I'm certainly more educated in the subtleties of this.
If i'm going to feel guilty I should feel guilty about buying a bike at all, by the sounds of it. Its not really a case of carbon vs aluminium - the real environmentally friendly thing to do (aside from not buying a bike at all) is to buy second hand. Thats true recycling, i suppose!
Well.
I ****ing love my HB.160 and I feel not a sliver of guilt about it.
Back on topic, when do we find out more about the Aether 9C...?
^^^ what they both said!
we'll be drip feeding more info over the next few weeks / months
Yeah need more info please, best get saving eh!
Weeks / months?!?!?!?!?!
BUT I WANT ONE NOW!!!
Just hoping they do an ali version.
Dream list:
- 120-130 rear
- 130-140 front
- has space for water bottles
- available in aluminium
- 435 or shorter CS
- 66.5' HA & 74+' SA
I think it could be pretty close to that, and if it is I'll have one.
I hope the don't jump on the LLS bandwagen for an all-rounder. Make it more playful.
With a 130 rear / 140 front the Aether 7 has a 65 degree headangle / 76 degree seatpost I think.
So I wonder if it’ll be just a little slacker / steeper respectively than you hope.....
You'd need them to get off the bandwagon, surely?
I hope the don’t jump on the LLS bandwagen
You're not overly familiar with Bird are you? ha ha. They sell Medium frames with a longer Reach than some makers XL frames.
Yes, should have added- I meant for this model.
Yeah, the XL Aether 7 has a reach of 527mm, compared to most XL size bikes which are under 500...
It even dwarfs my XXL Jeffsy at 510mm reach.
If you don't want LLS, walk away now. 😀
They should release one line of the geometry table every day, to keep people on the hook.
I haven't been following - have they kept as low as the original Aeris?
I love how low it is. I know some brands went low and then have gone back a bit after moans of pedal strikes (transition spring to mind).
Otherwise, surely if you don't like the reach, you can downsize and get a 170mm dropper in.
I haven’t been following – have they kept as low as the original Aeris?
My Aether seems quite low and the Zero 29er is particularly low so I’d say yes.
I recall reading that the Zero 29er is designed for relatively large tyres for a 29er hardtail (2.5's). The bottom bracket drop is adjusted to suit. Running smaller tyres will lower the bb.
I recall reading that the Zero 29er is designed for relatively large tyres for a 29er hardtail (2.5’s). The bottom bracket drop is adjusted to suit. Running smaller tyres will lower the bb.
Even still I’m pretty sure it’s quite low - think it’s got an 80mm bb drop in a hardtail.
When speaking about hardtails, one needs to compare the BB drop with a sagged FS. Static BB drops are meaningless
Perhaps compare that to other hardtails rather than FS....
The current Bird bikes are all low, long and slack. They’re not at the absolute extremes but they’re certainly in the most LLS 10% of what’s out there.
And yes, you have to compare BB heights when sagged. So with a 160mm full-sus deduct ~40mm (assuming 20% sag front and 30% sag rear), with a 150mm hardtail deduct ~15mm. The Zero 29 is bloody low, pretty long and pretty slack.
Ok, i'll release a line from the geometry table today...
Bahahaha
As if lockdown was bad enough, turns out @danbird is a specialist in torture.
I think we'd all be happy knowing when we could buy one before knowing anything about it 😉
Ha! No small is the biggest news. I can't imagine Bird ever needing an XXL unless they sponsor a basketball league 🙂
lol ah you tease!!
That's enough information - now, where do I sign?
Even still I’m pretty sure it’s quite low – think it’s got an 80mm bb drop in a hardtail.
Average-ish 29er diameter wheel is 29.5", so 14.25" to the axle. Take off a 80mm BB drop and you've got 11.1".
Back in the good old days when BB height was measured rather than drop most hardtails had BB's around 11.5", so losing 10mm really isn't much
Plus BITD everyone used to run 175mm cranks, whereas now it's 170/165mm.
We don't build small sizes in 29ers as there just isn't demand for them.
We're hoping you'll be able to buy one earlyish in the second half of this year.
Where's today's line from the geo chart, Dan?
Eh? Eh? Just where is it...?!
Yeah, we need those seat tube lengths now, damnit.
Where’s today’s line from the geo chart, Dan?
*crosses fingers for ‘HT Dia’*
😈
Am so hoping this comes in (with a sensible build) within my possible budget and it's a 'real' Bird not an open mould with a sticker.
The bespoke build options, the UK focused bikes, the amazing customer service and the direct sales value for money makes it the company I really want to be putting my money towards at the end of all this current nonsense.
Just to say the Aether 7 is genuinely really good. Done a few xc type bridleway loops joined with some brutal road climbs and it is really efficient and pedals well. On the rockier bits it absolutely flies. Quite a burly build with 140mm Lyriks / code r’s / xm481’s on Pro4’s etc
Am so hoping this comes in (with a sensible build) within my possible budget and it’s a ‘real’ Bird not an open mould with a sticker.
99% designed by us. 1% by SRAM. Definitely not a rebadge! That's not our style.
Is that 1% by SRAM because you're fitting their forks, headset, bottom bracket, dropper post, rear hub and rear mech or is there more to it than that?
Probably a new hub width. Its about time we had a new one. Or a new bottom bracket standard.
Nope but keep guessing.
It's an e-bike with a SRAM motor and gearbox 😉
Universal mech hanger?
Oooh I like this game. What else can we get out of @benpinnick ?
IT's gonna be 3x12 only, right? Designed around a 26" front wheel? And the shock will be a wedge of Elastomer? Pls confirm
@benpinnick not sure what the implications of this is re: Shimano builds? Forgive my ignorance
Same old standard where it meets the mech, just a new standard where it meets the frame.
Works fine with Shimano too. Sram UDH is compatible with most mechs other than Shimano direct mount (which Shimano don't support anymore either).
Yet another
Universalmech hanger?
Well it's the first time someone credible has attempted a standardised mech hanger and dropout so it would be possible to make it an actual standard. What it does mean is that cheap replacements are easily available.
A key selling point is also that it can rotate, so if you catch the mech it might move not die.
WILL YOU PLEASE STOP TALKING AND TAKE MY MONEY!!!!!
I know we’re not comparing apples to apples here but:
https://geometrygeeks.bike/compare/bird-zero-29-2019-ml,bird-aether-7-2020-ml/
I wouldn't be surprised if we did see a slightly more conservative (by Bird standards) geometry.
Aside from the BB drop, the Zero 29 reigns it in a bit, and having briefly tried one it makes for a nicely balanced bike. 460mm reach in ML is tiny compared to their other bikes.
Food for thought?