[Closed] Country File NOW -Greenlaning!

I've seen The Ridgeway mentioned in this thread a few times. I walked the length around 20 years ago when vehicles were permitted to use it, I found it incredibly sad that what was believed to be Europe's oldest road was trashed to such an extent that it was a case of walking two steps forward then taking one step back. My progress was extremely slow.

Am so pleased that it has been restored and that many more folk are able to enjoy this historic and beautiful trail.

Your son needs to MTFU.

Seriously though, lots of things make children cry but that doesnt mean pandering to irrational fears/phobias and banning them.

I'll tell him but he's only 1 so not sure he'll get the gyst.

You however need to lighten up and learn to spot sarcasm.

I think he may have - somewhat sarcastically - been ignoring yours.

HTH 🙂

Segregation of one type of trail/path/person from another is not the way forward IMO.*

Common sense, human decency and mutual respect for other users is the way forward.

(* though in the modern world, it unfortunately is - any excuse for more rules and regulations!)

cinnamon_girl
I've seen The Ridgeway mentioned in this thread a few times. I walked the length around 20 years ago when vehicles were permitted to use it, I found it incredibly sad that what was believed to be Europe's oldest road was trashed to such an extent that it was a case of walking two steps forward then taking one step back. My progress was extremely slow.

Am so pleased that it has been restored and that many more folk are able to enjoy this historic and beautiful trail.

Sorry, but that^^ pretty much is exactly my point! The Ridgeway is a very old road. Roads are used to move people, goods and livestock around. Had you been alive in 1650, you would have found the same Ridgeway, with even more mud, and the same difficult walking conditions. It has not been "trashed" and "restored", it has been "surfaced" and "upgraded". We only see nice, clean, stone/gravel roads as "restored" because that fits our quaint modern day take on the countryside, as seen on thousands of calendars and chocolate boxes!

This is what most of our (working) countryside actually looks like:

[img] [/img]

However, the Farmers and Landowners has spent a lot of money, time, and effort surfacing (generally with non "native" infill) such tracks so that they look like this:

[img] [/img]

Contrary to popular belief, it is the second picture in which the natural ecosystem has been "trashed"!

I don't get the green laning hate.

A muddy track gets made more muddy by motorbikes and 4x4s, so what?!....it's not like these vehicles are being driven through fields of crops and across areas of special scientific interest.

Oh no, you can't ride your MTB down it anymore, boo-flipping-hoo....ride somewhere else like you're telling green laners to do!

Deviant, you can drive your Land Rover 4x4 through a SSI, as long as youre the land owner or someone employed by the land owner in fact its ok to quarry, mine, and do what you like as long as youre the land owner, and as all farmers are slim and have slim children its ok for these slim athletes to ride on a track in a 4x4 but fat families from the city are not as they destroy the place.

We have hardcore tracks on ilkley moor that you can drive a 4x4 across as long as youre shooting birds, but you cant ride a bicycle on them as they scare the birds and its an SSI, the country access debate is a mess with self interets everywhere,
I also laugh at the suggestion that motorbikes are tearing about the place, yes they do, but these are illegal, and always have been so the last change in the law didnt stop them, but that's because the police arent doing anything about them. They do enjoy taking their BMW x5 up a track and waiting all day to stop half a dozen legal riders and then do their best to get them for something, typically a small number plate or a light out. But the police are there as a private police for the wealthy landowners who dont want anyone up there other than paying customers.

joke all round.

Had you been alive in 1650, you would have found [u]the same Ridgeway[/u], with even more mud, and the same difficult walking conditions

Please cite your sources. I'm not quite sure how multiple >1 tonne 4x4s, with >100bhp are equivalent to 100s, or even 1000s of sheep and cattle passing over a trail three centuries ago.

it is the second picture in which the natural ecosystem has been "trashed"!

As an academic working in ecological science at a leading university, my mind boggles at this statement. Again, please give your reasoning behind this and cite sources..

Nice primroses though 🙂

/\ /\ /\

Really 😯

I appreciate that people want to ride motorised transport in the countryside, don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is showy offy types on mx'ers who think it's fun to intimidate an old girl riding a bike on her own when there's not enough space to share. It's not clever to buzz me and generally act selfishly by splattering me. They're supposed to give way to me, horse riderists, walkerists etc.

There are people who will never share the countryside and that also includes mountain bikers, walkers and horse riders.

Edit: will say again that if only motorised transport users would come to a complete stop when they've finished a section of trail, take a look at the state of it and decide whether they're making it worse for other users.

illegal activity is the problem, always has been.
and arseholes are arseholes whatever mode of transport.

Same can be said for everyone CG, especially horses.

I have my own scientific study outside my house - newly layed mot aggregate track 5 year ago. In the intervening years it has had hundreds of bike rides up and down it, thousands of sheep trample and do their stuff on it, lots of walking and vehicles drive up and down it.

Other than it being a bit overgrown in the middle, the only significant damage I need to repair is the ruts created by the vehicles struggling for grip.

Other than my tongue-in-cheek remarks re. the bikers, I hardly ever come across green-laners or damage they may have caused. So I've not really formed an opinion on them - but it seems to be a clear fact that vehicles do way more damage to tracks than any other mode of transport.

Happy to post pics when I get home.

kind of what you would expect.

vehicles need access to the country as its not a picutre box its a working land.

And there is negligible difference between working vehicles and recreational, only probelm is the entrenched positions people have, as they want the landscape to be perfect for their use of it.

and that is where ramblers and land owners hold the power.
we are just mugs being allowed at their grace to use the land.

land owners hold the power.

Perhaps because it is their land?

Uncontrolled motorized off road access clearly doesn't work. The extra power tears up the ground and turns accessible dirt track into rutted bog that only other 4x4s can get through.

Access rights for non-motorized recreation works well in Scotland. No reason that can't work well in Englandshire as well.

I do understand the appeal of 'off roading' but I think in general the UK is not big enough to handle unregulated access, the population density, land type, and weather is not conducive to that.

"unregulated access," - we don't have unregulated access(*this post only applies to England/Wales), try googling on section 59 legislation.
https://www.gov.uk/right-of-way-open-access-land/use-public-rights-of-way

* %figures are overall % of actual length of tracks NOT the number of tracks

Vehicles are legally limited to about 2% of all track types England/Wales)

Ramblers - 100%+ (yes 100%+, they can use all tracks + have r2r)
Bikes(+horses) - about 21-22% of all tracks(bridleways, boats, restricted byway)
vehicles - about 2% (boats) of all tracks

On a maths basis I'd suggest that the 80 or so % that the ramblers are studiously hanging onto sole access on is a better target than the 2% that vehicles are left with.

Sancho - Member

illegal activity is the problem, always has been.
and arseholes are arseholes whatever mode of transport.

This.
It seemed to be the beginning of more lowest common denominator regulation; ignoring that those who truly flout the laws don't give a **** either way anyway.

Want to really make a difference; actually actively police the areas, get the groups to take responsibility for members actions and share the spaces. They don't make land anymore.

Green lanes/BOATS are usable roads that sometimes aren't paved.
They're still roads. They're very useful for driving along to get to fallen trees for wood, and thus clear said wood from the way so it's open again.
Traffic should still be expected on them.
Bridleways are a different matter and by christ the ones near me get churned to mire by horses, but hey, it's expected.
Yours, 4wd owner, off road motorcycle rider, MTBer and walker.

If you use the 'they are still roads' argument then don't use the 2% argument! You need to add the roads only vehicles can use (not walkers), roads like the M6. If you do that then vehicles prob have way over 50%.

Green lanes are where I go, on foot or on pedal-bike to get away from vehicles, engine noise, fumes and all the rest of it.

Surely there must be some areas, be them National Parks or some other designation that says vehicles stick to tarmac and let us peaceful users have some tranquillity?

C

Methinks this thread is linked in one or more 4x4 forums 🙂

towzer - Member

"unregulated access," - we don't have unregulated access

I am talking about a dirt track in the UK that is open to anyone tearing up and down it in any motoriz3ed vehicle they care to. That is not sustainable as power + aggressive tread + challenging terrain = wheel spin / sink = churned up lane that is wrecked for everyone else.

[quote=shedbrewed]It seemed to be the beginning of more lowest common denominator regulation; ignoring that those who truly flout the laws don't give a **** either way anyway.

Regulation does tend toward lowest common denominator yes. And I can sympathize with off roaders. But I don't see how some ancient law of access translates into ripping lanes to pieces in powerful vehicles in the name of recreation. That kind of thing, in the UK at least, is better on private land with the landowners permission.

But no one minds access for farmers and pheasant shooters that's ok.
But that is because the land in the UK is the playground of the landed gentry. We are just grateful to walk on it when they allow. No difference between working quads and recreation quads etc they cause the same damage.
Yet a farmer/gamekeeper can tear it up wherever they like on or off a track.
If you look at most of the scars on the moors they are from farm vehicles.

ChrisE

Green lanes are where I go, on foot or on pedal-bike to get away from vehicles, engine noise, fumes and all the rest of it.

Surely there must be some areas, be them National Parks or some other designation that says vehicles stick to tarmac and let us peaceful users have some tranquillity?

eh? Are the [b]140,000[/b] miles of FOOTPATHS in England and Wales(ie, only access on FOOT, no vehicles, bikes or horses) not enough for you? Greedy git you! 😉

I think motorised users have < 2% of the rights of way. If you don't like seeing the odd 4x4 or trail bike go walk/ride somewhere else. As for illegal drivers then same goes for walkers who tresspass or those riders who enjoy the odd cheeky trail. Remember byways are unsurfaced roads. If there is an issue with damage then they need to be repaired and sanitised if need be.

Remember byways are unsurfaced roads. If there is an issue with damage then they need to be repaired and sanitised if need be.

Yes cos that always goes down well...

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/rushup-edge-resurfacing

Green lanes are where I go, on foot or on pedal-bike to get away from vehicles, engine noise, fumes and all the rest of it.

Already asked here but unanswered, we've seen several mentions of engine noise etc - Would that make Hydrogen fuel cell or electric motorbikes acceptable then?

Surely there must be some areas, be them National Parks or some other designation that says vehicles stick to tarmac and let us peaceful users have some tranquillity?

Aren't bicycles vehicles?

Remember byways are unsurfaced roads. If there is an issue with damage then they need to be repaired and sanitised if need be.

And there is negligible difference between working vehicles and recreational, only probelm is the entrenched positions people have, as they want the landscape to be perfect for their use of it.

And the manner in which they are driven
Farmers and landowners working the land will be more careful and considerate to the environment, because it's their land and livelyhood they are potentially churning up, they also tend to know how to drive a 4wd vehicle properly in mud etc, and generally only go in already churned up areas when absolutely necessary, and not in a long line with all their mates
Many (not all) recreational users of both 4wd and motorbikes will go round looking for ruts, puddles and 'challenges' and some (not all) have no idea how to properly negotiate these without causing maximum damage, as it's not their land, not their problem and they don't have to put it right they will be less considerate

It's the above I have issues with, unfortunately from what I witness around the Peak and Derbyshire the vast majority fall into this camp (4wd seem to attract them, I'd say 90% of all I see fall is to the inconsiderate camp, off road motorbike riders probably more 50:50) , whereas the more inconsiderate walkers, bikers and horse riders are more of a minority within their respective user groups
Basically if any user group wants access to any land they should, as a collective group, prove they can do so responsibly

Come to think of it, I have yet to ride on a surface and think that someone has ruined it for mountain bikes. It kinda breaks the definition of an MTB if that is even possible. Getting around regardless of the surface and terrain has always been part of the challenge. Even riding up stupidly placed aggregate has a sick challenge to it.

To avoid conflict we ride with some farmers and anyone stops us then "we are checking the lanes and the livestock."

No difference in the bikes or how we ride.

I live in the South Downs national park in an area that is notorious for being muddy but with quite a few byways making it popular for visiting 4x4ers. A lot the byways have bylaws preventing use by motorised vehicles during winter months because they are vulnerable to damage. I remember pedalling into a local village a couple of years ago in October with 15 filthy 4x4s parked up and the occupants in the pub. By the stickers on the 4x4s they were from some London based club. Clocking the date my heart sank - the last weekend before the winter ban and it had been a wet week. My ride home (on the byway they had just been down- I had been down it the other way a couple of hours before and it was fine) turned into a walk - they had naused it up good and proper, and left a fair sprinkling of bits of bumper and trim behind for good measure. It remained impassable for the rest of the winter and an incredibly unplesant walk.

If you can't see the difference between that sort of 'leisure' use and legitimate use by local workers of the land then I don't value your judgment. And if maintaining our rights as mtbers means uniting with folk like this to prevent 'the thin end of the wedge', I'd rather not thanks. I feel I have far more in common with walkers in terms of rights and respect for the land than I ever will with some of these muppets.

It's lovely and everything to think of those old fashioned, quaint farmers gently rolling down those Halcyon, sunny dry grassy trails in an old LR 90 with a SheepDog poking its nose out from under the Ifor Stocktop, but these days, around here, the Farming Contractors drive these:

[img] [/img]

Trust me, the concept of "treading lightly" is quite difficult to achieve in 15ton/400bhp/massive tyred modern tractor, and by some standards thats^^^ a "small" tractor these days!

Farmers and landowners working the land will be more careful

Well if I'm carrying a lamb on the quad then yes. But afterwards it's back to getting it on 2 wheels...my reason for being out on it has genuine purpose though so it's not fun, not in the slightest 😀

Yes machinery is getting much bigger, yes Farmers are driving round on land that they own or rent, yest in a lot of cases they are putting roadways in to drive on (my Dad has put in an surfaced a lot of tracks on his farm to prevent them turning into muddy slop) it's their job and responsibility. It's not there to cater for the recreational user. It's also nearly always on private land.

And those big tyres don't spread the load at all. Look at [s]fat[/s] bike tyres on those 35lb bikes......

Just what I was thinking. There's a good reason for massive tyres in a tractor.

Besides, agriculture is an industry operating in an industrialised landscape. What do you expect? And 15ton monsters have been around for well over a century now.

Farmers considerate to the land ? Not from what I see crap left all over fields and farms rotting more years bale plastic and tyres left on bridleways wgere they have dumped stuff and fed animals in the next field .There is a farm near us that has so much crap strewn up the verge even a pikey would clean it up.

people bleating about the Ridgeway really grinds my gears, I used to trail ride the Ridgeway a lot, lived in Uffington so knew it really well. Had a few confrontations with walkers, your bike is illegal, you shouldn't ride here etc etc

Well my bike was legal and it was a public right of way, if you want to walk in the countryside go and find a route that isnt a road. As for the damage argument, the majority was caused by farm vehicles or lack of maintenance by the local authority.

The voluntary ban came in for not using in the winter, then the whole ban. Great force me to break the law because I like riding a dirt bike.

Are people so narrow minded that they cant accept that other people want to use the countryside in different ways. If a 4x4 driver is driving recklessly report them, 99% have number plates, if a kid is riding illegally on a Mx bike report them.

Interesting read, this tread... Pigface makes a good point about the law...

Environmental aspect asside, enforce the law as opposed to eliminating the activity to reduce law breaking.

Same argument that the minority of (insert recreational group), are getting the rest of (said recreational group), acting in a responsible and legal way, tarred with the same brush.

Its easy to "hate", it takes litte in the way of understanding, just a lot of rotational rhetoric. (i.e, if the same story gets repeated enough times, it becomes fact).

There is a constant battle here in my part of Germany. Bikes only allowed on trails wider than 2m.... and the rest of the walking, farming, forestry population is against changing this despite the other 15 Landes in Germany repealing the law. Switzerland opened all mountain trails to bikes this week, but we are stuck in the 16th Century. There are boads in the forest saying No Cycling, Bikes Trash The Environment next to forest tracks mullered by heavy logging vehicles... Its always the lines where recreational groups meet, like groups of users seldom complain about themselves, its usually the "other lot".

Sorry for digressing....

You make very sensible points rickmeister.
We got so much stick from the dog walkers for building jumps in the local woods.
Until the forestry came in cut down all the trees smashed the walls down destroyed the tracks and left the paths covered in left over branches.
Now they have no argument and no woods.
But we have built the jumps even bigger than before 🙂

there needs to be more focus on what is sustainable.

What a rights of way is classified as currently seem very random.

Basically because the difference between a footpath/bridleway/BOAT was just decided by a a series of civil servants in the 50's.

The current thinking seems to be if its a bridleway/BOAT and its not sustainable it needs to be repaired to a standard so it is sustainable.

Personally I think all rights of way should be reclassified on sustainability.

MTBer either need to be classed with walkers as they are so similar or have their own group they are not comparible to horse's see below.

average walker weights 70kg
average MTB 80 kg + 20 kg average.
average horse rider 500kg + 70kg
average 4x4 1500kg +

Alot of trails in clay areas should only be bridleways in the summer.

I don't get this whole argument about the greenlanes, in most areas offroad driving has been banned. On certain greenlanes it's allowed. Why on earth would anyone pick those areas to walk or bike?

It's an enjoyable hobby, not everyone has the same idea of enjoyable but it is enjoyable to some people.

Only saw the second part but to me they missed the real issue, the people who find the muddy bits and drive through them until they get stuck. I've seen 4x4 clubs having a go at these people. It's the same in every sport/hobby. MTB centres still get people using walker routes, walkers venture on to downhill tracks.

On some of the USA 4x4 sites I've seen fantastic photos of people taking a long trip off road and camping along the way. I like the fact the greenlanes can be used to get somewhere rather than driving round the pay and play site. It's not all about ruining the countryside for all drivers but it's ruined by a few.

Definitely agree though that a lot of the arguments aimed at 4x4s will be turned to mtbs if 4x4s are banned. Seen plenty of trails ruined by bikers avoiding puddles or riding through already muddy areas.

Definitely agree though that a lot of the arguments aimed at 4x4s will be turned to mtbs if 4x4s are banned. Seen plenty of trails ruined by bikers avoiding puddles or riding through already muddy areas.

Whilst true, in proportion a lot of the existing errosion is often the result of motorised use (I'm thining of Chapel Gate etc). And banning a few 4x4's is a loss to the local economy of a few £'s (MTB'ers still have to drive there so petrol stations are moot) but removes a lot of the pressure on the trails. Removing a few thousand MTB'ers could bankrupt local businesses (Peaslake stores? Hope Woodbine Cafe? 18bikes?) who get a significant part of their trade from us.

Yes I can see how it's enjoyable for some people to drive off road, it's a question of whether their enjoyment takes precedence over the ability of many more users to use the track afterwards.

Bessides, they might all swap their TD5's for Trek's.

scu98rkr - go and sit on the 0ty step.
How dare you come up with sensible suggestions on a STW thread
- everyone knows that only trollery and spurious spontaneous 'fact-making' are allowed.

there needs to be more focus on what is sustainable.

What a rights of way is classified as currently seem very random.

Basically because the difference between a footpath/bridleway/BOAT was just decided by a a series of civil servants in the 50's.

The current thinking seems to be if its a bridleway/BOAT and its not sustainable it needs to be repaired to a standard so it is sustainable.

Personally I think all rights of way should be reclassified on sustainability.

MTBer either need to be classed with walkers as they are so similar or have their own group they are not comparible to horse's see below.

average walker weights 70kg
average MTB 80 kg + 20 kg average.
average horse rider 500kg + 70kg
average 4x4 1500kg +

Alot of trails in clay areas should only be bridleways in the summer.

That makes a hell of a lot of sense. For folk that live in well draining areas I suspect what you typed will seem an irrelevance but living in an area exactly as you describe the concept of sustainability is an important one.

Yes I can see how it's enjoyable for some people to drive off road, it's a question of whether their enjoyment takes precedence over the ability of many more users to use the track afterwards.

That's my point though, have certain trails specifically for the 4x4 community and walkers find a different route that avoids it. There is plenty of countryside, I'm willing to bet most of the people complaining drive to the start point and enjoy the fact that they can moan about the 4x4s. There's got to be something to make walking enjoyable afterall and suspect for some of these people having a cause to moan about is as enjoyable as the walking...

As mentioned, it's about responsible use and most 4x4 clubs and users will encourage avoiding the trails that they'll ruin. It's the actions of a few that spoil it for many.

That's my point though, have certain trails specifically for the 4x4 community and walkers find a different route that avoids it.

I Think the Ridgeway is well spoilt now been graded so much not much fun on anything.Best bit now is the rutted bit to the top of the Avebury byway.They have graded loads of them around there Ramsbury Byways/Albourne/West wood etc.Wilts council must be loaded.

there needs to be more focus on what is sustainable.
What a rights of way is classified as currently seem very random.

Basically because the difference between a footpath/bridleway/BOAT was just decided by a a series of civil servants in the 50's.

The current thinking seems to be if its a bridleway/BOAT and its not sustainable it needs to be repaired to a standard so it is sustainable.

Personally I think all rights of way should be reclassified on sustainability.

MTBer either need to be classed with walkers as they are so similar or have their own group they are not comparible to horse's see below.

average walker weights 70kg
average MTB 80 kg + 20 kg average.
average horse rider 500kg + 70kg
average 4x4 1500kg +

Alot of trails in clay areas should only be bridleways in the summer.

Just what we need - a bureaucratic solution. That should take about 2 decades to sort out.

*coughs*

[b][url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/who-are-your-favourite-nazis ]Who are your favourite Nazis?[/url]
[/b]CaptainFlashheart - Member
SFB, there's little or no tolerance there, unless it's what they agree with!
Has anyone mentioned traffic wardens yet? No? Then take this as a mention!
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