[Closed] Country File NOW -Greenlaning!

All it highlights is just how out-of-date pretty much all our countryside access laws are! I mean, having banned 4x4s from pretty much 99% of the off orad network, people are now surprised that drivers of these vehicles (and mountain bikers too) are taking to "illegal" trails instead........

(not to mention the fact that the vast majority of people seem to think that "muddy" is equivalent to "destroyed" (the so called "chocolate box" countrysiders as i call them (who generally live in the town and like to drive out to perfectly manicured parts of the countryside in their cars, and go for a short walk making sure their inappropriate shoes don't get muddy) For example, take the Ridgeway in Oxfordshire, how muddy do you think that was in say 1650, when it was used to move 150,000 cattle and sheep a year between market towns??)

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

Getting the Godwin in early there!

Comparing the plight of this lot;
[img] [/img]

to the Holocaust seems a bit ridiculous.

Thought my brother in law did a good job with Ellie and the Black Grouse.

The Ridgeway used to be really unpleasant until they banned 4x4's from it. Massive ruts put in by people charging around.

I suspect 150,000 animals wouldn't actually do that much damage: compare the horse-power of say, a horse, to that of a 4x4....

And of course in the days of livestock movement by droving (and before the enclosure act) the ridgeway wasn't just the 5m wide track at the bottom of the ridge it is now.

green laning is a anachronism

Thin end of the wedge innit.

Thin end of the wedge innit.

John Craven has just annexed Poland, as it happens.

[i]Thin end of the wedge innit.[/i]

not even close.

I'm in the thin end of the wedge camp here. 4x4s have a right to use (some) green lanes, and are facing pressure to stop in many places due to conflict.

We have a right to ride bridleways, but come under pressure in areas of conflict.....

Where was that trail in the Peak District where that lady was interviewed stood by the gate? Looked interesting

20 years ago the Ridgeway was a hideous, rutted mudbath to be avoided.

[i]20 years ago the Ridgeway was a hideous, rutted mudbath to be avoided.[/i]

For a couple of months a year at worst 😆 and bits of it were kinda fun, although TBF it is much better now they've banned vehicles

We (4x4 and MTB's) are all in the same boat as it were.

Countryside access is a big issue and if we don't all stand together we'll all lose out.

CaptainFlashheart - talk about missing the point 🙄

Countryside access is a big issue and if we don't all stand together we'll all lose out.

I agree in full, and I've not missed the point. I have made the observation that comparing land access with the Holocaust is utterly, utterly ridiculous. Bordering on offensive, in fact.

The local council have spent god knows how much money trying to improve the drainage of the brown lane opposite me because it gets constantly chewed up by plonkers in 4x4s 'living the dream'. There's more technical challenge driving up the pot-holed road to get to it,than can be had driving down it.
If it's the 'thin end of the wedge', then someone lend me a ****-off big hammer to smash it home.

Where was that trail in the Peak District where that lady was interviewed stood by the gate? Looked interesting

It's a pig of a climb in the Vertebrate White Peak mountain biking book, Cheedale and the Wye Valley ride, as a descent, yes it would be very interesting, it's steep and very rocky

First they came for the 4x4 drivers
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a 4x4 driver
Then they came for the off road enduro riders
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a off road enduro rider
Then they came for the horse riders
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a horse rider
Then they came for the mtb riders
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a mtb rider
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

[i]We (4x4 and MTB's) are all in the same boat as it were.[/i]

No, we're not. Don't be lumping us together in an effort to put the fear up, or get cyclist to support the cause of 4x4's.

^^Lame poetic recreation^^

Thanks Iain 1775

"Because I was not a mtb rider"

You're on the wrong web site fella

No, we're not. Don't be lumping us together in an effort to put the fear up, or get cyclist to support the cause of 4x4's.

Where should the line be then? Engines, wheels? You're being very naive.

Where should the line be then?

The Polish border, perhaps?

where should the line be is easy, you said it yourself, engines.

People want peace and quiet, when was the last time you saw a plan for any bit of BW that actively encouraged 4x4s? Councils are falling over themselves to provide cycling provision...Have you noticed how popular it is?

No 4x4 access without land owners permission works well in scotland.

And thats from someone who goes offroad in his offroader.

I would hate to see billy bob and joe attop a hill in their 4x4 having to put in effort to see the scottish country side is a good thing even if that is just paying the land owners a large sum of cash

Councils are falling over themselves to provide cycling provision...Have you noticed how popular it is?

Councils don't provide cycling provision - at best they stick up a few signs and employ an access officer.

I think geoffj is making a valid point, surprised your not getting it Flashy, not like you.

I don't [i]like[/i] noisy 4x4s chewing up the bits of the countryside they are allowed on, but I'm reluctant to support excessive restriction of them because the same arguments can - and have - been levelled against MTB use in places.

And as for councils encouraging general off road cycling provision - not talking about tourist trails, trail centres or multi user resurfacing of bridleways - I'm not seeing any round here.

Our does, CC Swansea and Sustrans have a great job in upgrading the Swansea Valley cycle path - even have a direct link specially built to connect our village, all tarmac and properly signed.

So not actually encouraging MTBing then?

Which I think is the point we are trying to get across.

FFS, I do get the point, I just very strongly disagree with the delivery method!

Comparing it to the Holocaust is utterly stupid.

Using the Holocaust verse was trite, maybe. If he'd posted the second version in the first place, that would have been clever (imo)

And you do seem grumpy today? International demand for paper clips not what it was? 😉

And you are do seem grumpy today?

Yoda? Is that you?

The 4x4s are limited to a very small amount of the rights of way network
And imo the motor bikers us and the 4x4 should make an effort to work together for our access

There will always be tossers who spoil things no matter if they ride a bike or drive but do not apply that to all

Was speaking to a green lane motorcyclist the other day. He put forward an interesting point...where do we stand with electric enduro bikes?

I remember the Ridgeway being rutted such that it was unrideable. And it presented risks of broken legs to walkers and horses, the deep winter ruts having dried and hardened into something close to concrete. So their 'sport' left the route unuseable by others.

Using the holocaust is either offensive, ignorant or both.

Wanting peace and quiet in the countryside is fair enough, but it's not going to happen when it's where our food factories and quarries are located.

However, it's not unreasonable for most recreational countryside users not to have their days ruined by the noise from the relatively small numbers of recreational offroad motorbikes and vehicles. The solution: carry on greenlaning, but electric only from now on.

Edit: cross posting with ollybus.

[i]but I'm reluctant to support excessive restriction of them because the same arguments can - and have - been levelled against MTB use in places.[/i]

I know of at least 4 places where 4x4 have been banned (Oxfordshire, Kent, Wales and Lakes) where the banning was specifically because of the excessive damage that lots of 4x4 did, and in all cases the relevant authorities were quick to point out that it was business as usual for everyone else, walkers horses and bikes. They simply don't see MTBs in the same way as 4x4s, the whole "it's us now, then it'll be you" is propaganda put out by 4x4 groups.

The counrty side is a working place , not just an attraction for those that don't live there

slowoldgit
I remember the Ridgeway being rutted such that it was unrideable.

Me too, and that was last week!

The Ridgeway is a road. It just happens to be an unsurfaced one. I can show you probably 150 km of footpaths that run alongside it and across it, and another 60km of bridleways as well if you would like to walk/ride some where else?

The reason it is less muddy than it used to be is broadly because of all the maintenance that is now done to it year round, including the surfacing with hundreds of tonnes of stone, gravel, and git etc.

Thing is, everyone who uses our unsurfaced rights of way does some sort of "damage" (by this i mean potentially makes these ways erode or get muddy). No one has more or less right than anyone else to use these paths. However, take a look at the amount of access (miles of path) currently available for each user (ie Foothpath, bridleway, byway) and it's quite clear than it is already enormously skewed in favour of the pedestrian. If we ban 4x4s, who is next? Horse riders, Mountain bikers?

To say it's the start of a slippery slope, is, pun intended, absolutely correct....

If we ban 4x4s, who is next? Horse riders, Mountain bikers?

To say it's the start of a slippery slope, is, pun intended, absolutely correct....

Saying it again doesn't make it any more true.

[url= https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope ]Know your logical fallacy[/url]

However, it's not unreasonable for most recreational countryside users not to have their days ruined by the noise from the relatively small numbers of recreational offroad motorbikes and vehicles.

The funny thing is, that these people who's days are "ruined" by hearing an engine are never found in the proper, wild, and still undertrod far flung places.
They are generally found within 5miles of a nice clean National Trust carpark, where they can park their car, and "explore" the chocolatebox/calendar photo countryside in comfort without getting there shoes dirty.........

lemonysam
Saying it again doesn't make it any more true.

So you've never been on your bike and been shouted at / challenged by walkers who want you off "their" paths (even the legal bridleways) because "mountain bikers always go too fast and are dangerous to walkers"?

I guess you don't get out of the Trail Centres much then....... 😉

Not once have i had that maxtorque

Only get that attitude on the road

The funny thing is, that these people who's days are "ruined" by hearing an engine are never found in the proper, wild, and still undertrod far flung places.

These proper, wild places. Scotland has made it's own arrangements, where are there any of them in England or Wales? I can't think of one, only the North Pennines and Northumberland would come close.

The counrty side is a working place , not just an attraction for those that don't live there

This is true, it's easy to assume that all 4WD/motorised access on these routes is recreational/greenlaners, when a fair bit of damage is tractors/permitted use.

Personally I think an opportunity has been missed by not taking a more holistic approach to the solution rather than simply banning thrm (and thereby pushing them onto fewer and fewer routes, increasing the damage, which in turn justifies a further Ben), the forestry Commission could have earned a fortune from paid 4WD

[i]So you've never been on your bike and been shouted at / challenged by walkers who want you off "their" paths (even the legal bridleways) because "mountain bikers always go too fast and are dangerous to walkers"?[/i]

In 15 years + maybe once or twice, but, being shouted at by grumpy a-holes is still a million miles away from the actual bodies which have authority banning you 'cause you do too much damage.

midlifecrashes
These proper, wild places. where are there any of them in England or Wales?

I'm not telling you! 😉

Seriously though, get an OS map, learn to read it, and there are thousands of places you can have the countryside to yourself still, often within 5miles of major towns and cities too! I can think of days i've spent walking/cycling on Dartmoor, Exmoor, Quantocks, Mendips, South/Mid/North Wales, even in the busy south / midlands where i've not even met a single other user on our rights of way network!

nickc

In 15 years + maybe once or twice, but, being shouted at by grumpy a-holes is still a million miles away from the actual bodies which have authority banning you 'cause you do too much damage.

I'm not going to suggest that riding a MTB is as an contentious an issue as driving a 4x4, but it's worth remembering the sort of people who have the time, inclination and money to kick up a fuss are often difficult to ignore by the councils and people responsible for our rights of way networks. Often retired, well off, and what you'd call "influential" people, they can cause enough of a fuss to make simply barring access for one user group look like the easy option for overworked, underfunded civil servants.

So 5 miles from a major town is proper wild now? OK. 😆

see up there my post about logical fallacies.

the Ramblers are all about making sure that existing ROW are open to them, and that their access rights are being widened, and below is a direct lift from their "Off road vehicles on footpaths" section

[i]4x4s, motorbikes and other off-road vehicles using footpaths, bridleways and other tracks is a problem in many parts of the countryside.

In places people are greeted with thunderous engines, deep ruts left by 4x4s, and have to jump out of the way when motorbikes whizz past. We feel this isn't just unpleasant, it's dangerous.

There are some laws in place to limit the damage caused by off-road vehicles. But it still represents a large problem for many walkers, [b]cyclists,[/b] horse-riders and other vulnerable users.[/i]

Ramblers are on OUR side

Hands up every english mountain biker that's never ridden a cheeky footpath.

Restrict motor vehicles to a very limited number of areas. Act surprised when those limited areas get too much traffic. Act surprised when some motor vehicles go outwith those areas, and use that to attack greenlaners in general. Mention that there are purpose built venues they can go to so kicking them off the bridleways won't stop them going offroad. Oh and observe that these roads weren't made for motor vehicles, and that the bridlway network is crowded.

There's no part of this argument that you won't also hear aimed at mountain bikes. Motorised access is a bit more controversial because of the noise and damage but the argument against always comes down to "I want to do my thing in the countryside and I want to stop other people doing their thing". The solution as for all trail contention is wider, better access.

midlifecrashes
So 5 miles from a major town is proper wild now? OK.

No, i'm not suggesting that there are places with the wilderness of say Alaska or Siberia just 5miles from a major UK town.
BUT, there are plenty of "wild" places you can have to "yourself" that are! You don't need to say follow the crowd to the popular over crowded tourist attractions of places like say Edale in the Peaks to find our own adventures!

Am I the only one that thinks that you should have the land owners permission to ride a motorbike or 4x4 across their land? Might not be the legal position, but perhaps it should be. Not the same as walking, horse riding, cycling, and mobility scooter use at all… far more damaging and intrusive, no?

Ramblers are on OUR side

I would strongly disagree there, on the basis of the Ramblers having objected to every upgrade from Footpath to Bridleway or RB that I have seen in my local area, and having sat across from the RA regional rep at LAF as he made the exact same 'whizzing past at speed' 'forced to jump out of the way' and 'dangerous' comments about mountain bikers!

kelvin - Member

Am I the only one that thinks that you should have the land owners permission to ride a motorbike or 4x4 across their land? Might not be the legal position, but perhaps it should be. Not the same as walking, horse riding, cycling, and mobility scooter use at all… far more damaging and intrusive, no?

Pretty sure in Northern Ireland there are no ROW paths/bridleways so all access to/through some one's land requires permission from the land owner. Which with the liability concerns/claims these days, means it pretty much doesn't happen.

As for people complaining about the noise of engines in the countryside and ruts, I bet these people haven't heard the common noise of a 20 year old tractor with a duff exhaust or just a piece of pipe under load/working the land. Or that the reason a field or across road they are walking along is badly rutted is because due to restrictions put in place giving farmers small windows of time when they can spread slurry, meant that even though the land was still wet the farmer had to go out and spread the slurry on it, cutting up the ground in the process.

the argument against off roading is just hypocritical nonsense, they are arguing that you cant use these tracks for pleasure but you can if you live there and work on the land.

pure a holes all of them.

the banning wont stop people using the lanes, just make sure that when you ride them you dont stop and hang about, keep your number plate muddy and fek off anyone who gives you any grief.

Sancho - Member
the argument against off roading is just hypocritical nonsense, they are arguing that you cant use these tracks for pleasure but you can if you live there and work on the land.

pure a holes all of them.

Having had the misfortune to live around one of Lancashire's mill towns and head up into the hills to find the locals think off roading on motorbikes etc. involves trying to ride up a boggy hill thrashing the throttle as hard as you can until the rut you create is bigger than the bike there is a massive difference between recreational and business use.

Some farm tracks are unsuitable for use during the year simply because excessive use would mean the land owner would need to rebuild, armour etc. rather than use an alternative. Who would foot the bill for sorting out the track? You can guarantee that the long term solution would be a long bland aggregate road in the style that STW likes to get all upset about. So perhaps that is it, the solution to green lanes are to surface them all properly making them both suitable for long term use and really dull (hence reducing traffic)

Ninfan is correct the ramblers are notorious for objecting to status change on footpaths to bridleways, the Byeways and Bridleways Trust fight for our collective rights to use these rights of way. No legal 4x4 or trail motorcycle go "off road" they use legal unsurfaced roads (these remain our legal right and constitute less than 1% of the public rights of way in England and Wales)

If anyone here thinks you are welcome in the countryside by the Ramblers association or part of their "team" crack on and enjoy your trail centre.

The damage argument is a load of b*******ks - when the ramblers destroy parts of the Pennines way they get tons of stone helicoptered in and duckboards by the mile.

A track fixed after damage by 4x4
[img] [/img]
Is that what you want?

It's terrible. if greenlaning is stopped there will be nowhere left for people to drive cars.

My opinion only, but...

When you drive about on Bridleways in your 20 year old Discovery with your family of over weight kids and wife with all your mates in similar vehicles in the name of 'enjoying the countryside' or 'getting out into the great outdoors' without leaving your vehicle but just milling the sides of the trail with the over sized tyres you fitted you look like a dick.
'One life, live it'. But don't do it sat on your fat arse in a truck that destroy habitat and restrict access to any other form of transport by rutting up the trails where you believe more power is the answer to everything. Did I mention, you look like a dick, at best.

No-one's answered the point that I see as: If you wreck the track so that others can't use it, you ain't going to be popular.

Or if they have, I've missed it.

And it wasn't just The Ridgeway. I didn't have an opinion until a convoy of 17 (yes, seventeen) four by fours passed me in Stockton Wood near the 303. The ruts made that track unuseable.

If they came back later with picks and shovels I missed that too.

All I want is for the Nibthwaite Descent to get restricted so I don't have to wait behind a train of 'Kankku' offroad tourists every single bloody time I try to go down it! 😀

Otherwise it's good to have the buffer of motorised vehicles in between us and fur-hat lady from countryfile. If a complete ban was every implemented, she'd have to find someone else who was ruining her enjoyment of the countryside.

My local green lane was repaired last summer.

This is how it looks now

[URL= http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h82/Paul_Fulford/05057BD9-C641-49E6-A10E-5BE79E3DD1B7_zpszyeqdqix.jp g" target="_blank">http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h82/Paul_Fulford/05057BD9-C641-49E6-A10E-5BE79E3DD1B7_zpszyeqdqix.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

[i]If a complete ban was every implemented, she'd have to find someone else who was ruining her enjoyment of the countryside.[/i]

Why do people keep saying this, as if it's some sort of fact? Are we all so afraid of our own shadows? Mountain biking is a pretty established part of the countryside "scene" now, no-one bats an eyelid at us anymore (even if they ever did way back when...)

Does anyone know of any examples where once there have been traffic orders put in place to restrict 4x4's the next thing was a downgrading of the status of the BW to footpath so that MTB was banned as well?

Surely there is a middle way here? I'm completely against the idea that certain groups shouldn't be allowed to enjoy the countryside because of their chosen way of enjoying it.

Something like Scotland's laws of "access with permission" would make sense. Or even a halfway house of their open access laws- if you aren't going to damage the track in its current condition then go ahead. The Roych, Chapel Gate, probably the Roman Road- all can stand up perfectly well to the limited amount of motorised traffic they will get. Common sense applies, if a ranger catches you on a track that's sodden and liable to get ripped to bits then a large fine can be imposed.

IME horse riders are particularly bad for not applying common sense to their use of trails- several near me are ripped to shreds because they insist on keeping taking their horses along them in the wet and now they're impassable with any sense of enjoyment by anyone other than a horse rider.

[quote=munrobiker ]IME horse riders are particularly bad for not applying common sense to their use of trails- several near me are ripped to shreds because they insist on keeping taking their horses along them in the wet and now they're impassable with any sense of enjoyment by anyone other than a horse rider.Indeed - and there's a 100 mile horsey event taking place through the Cairngorms later this year that will leave some very soft tracks in a complete mess for ages to come.

Thin end of the wedge....?

Nonsense.

I think we need to make a clear distinction between what recreational use of countryside rights of way is for: non-motorised enjoyment of the landscape through clean air and relative peace.

And what it is not for: neanderthal idiots marauding along 2km long isolated stretches of badly eroded 'green lane', motorised access to which is simply an anachronism - and impinges enjoyment of the countryside for the majority of other recreational stakeholders.

There isn't a 'thin end'. Combustion engines simply shouldn't belong on rights of way. They can't ever be used in ways that don't severely affect other recreational users of the countryside. The same can't be said for bikes, or pogo sticks, or horses, or fatbikes, or whatever.. 🙂

"There isn't a 'thin end'. Combustion engines simply shouldn't belong on rights of way"

And you call others "neanderthal"! Your user name seems apt.

I guess that would make you quite special then.

We can resort to name calling if you like, but perhaps a more nuanced approach might be to describe how someone controlling >1 tonnes of >100hp metal down an unsurfaced road, prone to erosion, and used by others largely seeking enjoyment from clean green space is somehow being considerate to other users of the countryside.

Explain your point of view in a nuanced way, please. Please genuinely do. I am intrigued to know what the appeal of it is, from a 4x4 perspective.

I hate the bikes me. Every now and again we get a swarm of them here, up to 30 bikes taking over the road making a right racket. They came past me on our road once and made my son cry in his buggy.

So on the basis that I don't like them and I live in the country, then surely an outright ban is the only possible conclusion?

Last year I rode around Staveley, I was on the top of a big hill when about 20 motorbikers appeared on the Moor making their own tracks towards the path.

They caught up to us at the gate which was locked. They proceeded to destroy the barbed wire fence so they could get over it.

Then at the bottom of the hill had to hide from the rangers as they knew they were in the wrong.

Personally I don't mind motor vehicles out and about but follow the rules, leave only footprints etc. Don't fubar it for the rest of us who like to enjoy the routes kindly left open by the land owners

I think we need to make a clear distinction between what recreational use of countryside rights of way is for: non-motorised enjoyment of the landscape through clean air and relative peace.

So, where do you stand on mobility vehicles/electric tramper buggies?
How about E-bikes?

combustion engines simply shouldn't belong on rights of way

E-motorbikes and hydrogen fuel cell powered motorbikes OK then?

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[img] [/img]

They came past me on our road once and made my son cry in his buggy.

Your son needs to MTFU.

Seriously though, lots of things make children cry but that doesnt mean pandering to irrational fears/phobias and banning them.

FFS live and let live people.

The reason so many bikes and/or 4x4s congregate on the same trails and 'destroy' them is exactly because of restrictions put in place...the more you take away Byways Open To All Traffic the more use the remaining ones will get.

Go down the Scotland route of open access and spread the load so to speak, there is enough green countryside out there for horse riders, cyclists, ramblers, green laning etc to take place without being on top of each other....people just need to stop being so mean spirited about their particular hobby and stop trying to ban others from enjoying theirs.

"Go down the Scotland route of open access and spread the load so to speak, there is enough green countryside out there for horse riders, cyclists, ramblers, green laning"

NO NO NO this is wrong.

In scotland you cannot take your vehicle off the highway. Your motorbike or your 4x4 on "green lanes" without explicit permission from the owner is not allowed.

Organised events , trail days etc are run "fairly" responsibly and with owners permission to cross the land.

Any other use of 4x4s and motorbikes for recreation on scottish hills is not allowed and if your lucky the gamie will give you a warning shot across the bows.

Our system works specifically for this reason. it promotes responsible land access and not tearing up the hillside in your 4x4 for no apparent reason.

(and thats from someone who would like to take his 4x4 off the beaten track more / outside of competitions and organised days.... how ever ill come down to england and bother you guys for that :D)

Go down the Scotland route of open access and spread the load so to speak, there is enough green countryside out there for horse riders, cyclists, ramblers, green laning etc to take place without being on top of each other....people just need to stop being so mean spirited about their particular hobby and stop trying to ban others from enjoying theirs.

That would be the Scotland where 'Green Laning' is banned without the landowners permission? [edit beaen too it]

The difference between 4x4's and mountian bikes is that the 4x4 does a huge ammount of damage by a small number of people, mountainbikes, even if we collectively did as much damage to a track that's hundreds/thousands of MTB'ers buying cake and talking rubbish in the pub Vs one tubby guy in a battered TD5 from Stoke-on-Trent.

*which I'm fairly sure we don't, even the busiest, muddiest track at Swinley pre the makeover weren't 8ft wide and 2ft deep rutts (maybe 8ft wide though!)