[Closed] Cotic Rocket update from Cy

but, I'm thinking of trying 26 in my 650b frame coz I kinda miss the excitement and reaction speed..

With 650 in my 26 frame I can't really say the reaction speed is slower just an inch further up.

its an inch or so further out, and a bit heavier, inevitably, it definitely tames stuff more in my experience, but not as much as 29. I like it 650b, I think it is a middle way but I have quite liked going back to a few of my mates 26 bikes. As such intrigued to try 26 in the same frame. I have enough flexibility in a head angle chip so it doesn't make the BB too stoopid low, though its on the limit for the travel.

I also think 650b is the right business decision, like it or not the industry and target market has decided that.

Sadly it is the right business decision.
Good luck to them.

However, the target market decided nothing.

If some people prefer to delude themselves into thinking that they had anything to do with 'choosing' 650b then fine.
That's the way the industry have written it and the media just repeat what they are told to.
Choice had nothing to do with it - 650b was forced onto the market.

I feel better now.
🙂

wrecker - Member

And I bet that there isn't a 29 enduro or remedy for much longer.....2 years maybe.

I'll take that bet- there's very few manufacturers that don't have a 29er of this ilk now and those are 2 companies most into it- there's a brand new carbon Remedy 29 just out, that's a big commitment. They even invented some bullshit rear axle bullshit for it.

Put yer money where your mouth is? I bet you 2 scottish pence. And more generally I reckon most companies will continue to carry them too.

Yep and once we're all on 650b, they'll start to push us into 29 again.
I give it 2-3 years and then you'll see World Cup DH 29ers.

I'm not sure it's all the industries fault though - there are plenty of consumers who have pushed it too

[i]I give it 2-3 years and then you'll see World Cup DH 29ers.[/i]

No, it'll be 26" full fat or 27.5+ next for DH racing.

I'm not sure it's all the industries fault though - there are plenty of consumers who have pushed it too

Never met any.
Not seen any evidence.
I do not believe the industry people who say this.

I wonder how many forum posts there were begging for 650b?
Yes, a few people on here were early adopters, but the vast, vast majority seemed perfectly happy with 26 or 29.

As usual, someone from the industry will be along shortly to disagree.

Just as they disagreed when people mentioned that the proliferation of wheel sizes would adversely affect smaller manufacturers.

I give it 2-3 years and then you'll see World Cup DH 29ers.

there's a brand new carbon Remedy 29 just out, that's a big commitment.

Put yer money where your mouth is? I bet you 2 scottish pence.

Surely there must be thousands of people with quality wheels and fork that are 26"?

I'm one.
I spotted all this wheel size shenanigans happening, held on as long as possible and bought a really nice frame and fork for buttons, early last year.
There's no reason I can't get 6+ years out of the forks, all the service parts are shared with bigger wheeled forks. All other consumables will be easy peasy to get for years, and probably really cheap too.
I've got noting at all against bigger wheels, but I just can't be arsed to swap all my (really nice) kit over, and nor can I justify the expense.
I do love the flighty, direct ride of 26in though.
I looked the other day, and there's still brand new, straight steerer, 26in forks available very easily too.
Most people buy into the newest niche. I'm just biding my time until I become part of the year 2020 niche... 🙂

No hands up still then?

It's looking like my options for a shorter travel 26" FS frame now rest almost soley with either expensive custom or Chinese carbon.

Or the vast array of dirt cheap, lightly used 26in frames on the secondhand market of course.

Sold my Trek Fuel EX carbon frame for £550 this year IIRC, flipping fast bike with awesome geometry!

Northwind - Member

there's a brand new carbon Remedy 29 just out, that's a big commitment.

Depends how many parts are shard with the 650 - the Enduro 650 and 29er share a front triangle.

I've got noting at all against bigger wheels, but I just can't be arsed to swap all my (really nice) kit over, and nor can I justify the expense.

I'm here too. i'd love a new bike but i defo cant afford one and therefore i`m 26 for a goodly while yet.

i`m struggleing to fine good 26" 1/18th forks though.

i`m struggleing to fine good 26" 1/18th forks though.

Just keep the forks you already have or get a cheap 2nd hand pair and stick an Avalanche Advantage cart in them. my 36's are 2006 and are amazing with that cart in. Also means never have to be sent away to be serviced as you can just do it all yourself.

Enduro 650 and 29er share a front triangle.

No they don't. The 650b uses a 26er's front triangle.

[i]Most people buy into the newest niche.[/i]

Nah, most people buy a bike. People coming to the sport for the first time, they go to a shop and they buy the bike the bloke has got for sale, they like the colour, they like the way it rides, they like the price or the finance deal, or the helmet chucked in. What they don't care about at all, is wheel size. I've more than a few mates who run or road cycle, and have recently bought mountain bikes for the first time, they weren't even aware of the wheel size "debate" and couldn't care less about it anyway, it makes about as much sense as debating the colour red vs green to them.

It's done, get over it.

No hands up still then?

I'd still buy one! I was on the waiting list till well after the initial ETA, then had to drop out for a bit for money reasons, and then it all went a bit quiet. I didn't buy something different though, and I still ride the bike the Rocket would have replaced the frame on. I was really hoping that Cy would come through eventually, but I understand that the situation is different now.

I've got nothing against bigger wheels, but I'm happy enough with the 26" FS I have for now, not that I ride it much in winter anyway. If and when Cotic release something that looks like it's worth the switch to bigger wheels then I'll definitely be on the list for a demo...

wrecker - Member

There are far fewer Spesh 29ers in the trail/AM category now they've gone 650.

Are there? Still looks like a full range to me 😕 They've culled out all the non-Evo stumpies but that's most likely just because the Evos are better- the standard version competed too closely with the Camber.

No hands up still then?

I would have bought a Rocket in 26", but that was over a year ago when frames were apparently weeks away from delivery.

Since then I've bought a Whyte G150S, and it just happened to come in 650b. I'm not purposefully moving standard, it just happened to be the bike that was available at the time. I'd have stuck 26" a year ago if Rocket frames were there to be had.

Are there? Still looks like a full range to me

You forgot to mention the 5 Camber 29ers.

There's never been an Enduro 29er Evo, so that's not a reduction. Pretty obvious why, the standard version is the most extreme 29er out there (possibly shared honours with the WFO) so there's no reason to add an even extremer Evo.

It looks like the S-Works stumpjumper is the only actual reduction in the range, and 650b is still playing second fiddle to 29.

You forgot to mention the 5 Camber 29ers.

and 650b is still playing second fiddle to 29.

The Camber's a short travel trailbike, always has been.

But OK, if you doubt it for the standard model the Evo's most definitely a trailbike- look at the expert, 120mm travel, Pikes, 2.3 tyres (Butcher and Purgatory) and a dropper post. Not the trailbike I'd buy but.

Nor me. It's the only bike I've ever ridden which I can honestly say I have hated. I walked it down a trail, that's how much I wanted to continue riding the thing. You can have the evo as a trail but the rest are XC to me, just not XC race.

Specialized's US web site has 7 stumpjumper fsr 29ers v 2 with 650b.

There are an equal number of 29er and 650b enduro models, not counting the evo versions (one of which has a boxxer fork which makes me think it is a light park bike type of thing)

Make of that what you fancy.

I think Cotic are doing the right thing from a commercial point of view by cancelling the 26" wheel Rocket. I was going to buy one, but didn't get the chance. I still have my hemlock, though. I'll consider a 650b version when next considering such a bike.

I wonder what Mike Sinyard had for breakfast?

i`m struggleing to fine good 26" 1/18th forks though.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ROCKSHOX-REBA-RLT-SUSPENSION-FORKS-26-WHEEL-MOUNTAIN-BIKE-LOCKOUT-RRP-649-99-/261651474137?pt=UK_sportsleisure_cycling_bikeparts_SR&hash=item3ceba4a6d9

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-RockShox-Reba-RL-SA100-26-MTB-Forks-2014-model-1-1-8-Steerer-15mm-Axle-/321512642314?pt=UK_sportsleisure_cycling_bikeparts_SR&var=&hash=item4adba5970a

There's plenty 🙂

Didn't Spesh just replace the 26ers in the Stumpy and Enduro line ups with 650b models and the 29ers carried on as before?

Didn't Spesh just replace the 26ers in the Stumpy and Enduro line ups with 650b models and the 29ers carried on as before?

I guess so. I was prompted by the post suggesting that 29er trail and AM bikes were being phased out.

i`m struggleing to fine good 26" 1/18th forks though.

Ahem... Nothing wrong with these, and loads more if you look around:

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/bike-split-nicolai-avid-marzocchi

I'll be sticking with 26 as long as I can, if for no other reason than that the bike industry is trying to take the piss out of us all with ever changing standards. That and marketing BS, "it must be good it has Enduro printed on it".

Interesting that most that say they considered/would consider a 26" Rocket also say they either can't afford a new bike or got something else, probably not 26".

Looks like 26" is dead and Cotic made the right call. For the record I've got a 26" HT that I intend to keep and just service/replace the parts. I'm not worried about parts (except decent forks) drying up but can't see many people choosing 26" from new and don't see it coming back any time soon.

Regardless of 650b being a marketing exercise or not it's here to stay and has replaced 26". Personally, any wedge of cash I spend will be on 29" for the foreseeable.

[quote=stevenmenmuir ]I'll be sticking with 26 as long as [s]I can, if for no other reason than that the bike industry is trying to take the piss out of us all with ever changing standards. That and marketing BS, "it must be good it has Enduro printed on it".[/s] my Ti456 doesn't crack
Best get those 650B wheels ordered.....

@rusty spanner I think the target market did by default. Relatively high earners looking to buy exxpensive new bikes, all became very concerned about resale value (due to frequent changing of bikes) as soon as 650b was touted as the next thing and naysayers said 26" would be defunct, as such they all stopped buying any new 26 creating a vicious circle. My 2 peneth...

Think its another example of Cy trying to do the right thing and being honest and realistic about the wider bike industry.

It's just put a massive gulf in the middle ground ie with those of us who don't often buy whole new bikes and upgrade through time replacing big and small bits as we go, meandering through the fashions as they mature.

Myself, I'd love to buy a new frame with progressive/"Enduro" geometry in 26" format as I'm only 5'7" and I don't need wheels any bigger than that. I've got great forks, a good frame, 2 sets of wheels and pretty much a tyre for every occasion. I don't want to have to buy all that again just to get the new style geo. Especially at the 50%+ premium that seems to have been applied to the price of bikes in the last couple of years (to everyone but YT).

The Rocket was a cracking deal at approx £1500 and I was seriously considering one when the production started as I'm a big fan of steel (I've got a Keewee Chromo 8 for downhill) and think it sounds like just what I'd be after in a bike.

I'm sure I can get 96% of the effects of the new geometry with slacksets offset bushes going up a size and such and because of that I'm going to pretty much flick 2 fingers at the industry and not buy much until things calm down.*

* Not surprising as I'm still on 9-speed and have 8 year old brakes on my bike.

Chainline - Member

@rusty spanner I think the target market did by default.

Did what by default?
Stopped manufacturing and supporting 26 inch bikes?
That was the manufacturers.

Relatively high earners looking to buy exxpensive new bikes, all became very concerned about resale value (due to frequent changing of bikes) as soon as 650b was touted as the next thing

And who touted 650b/the death of 26/the stupidity of those who refuse to embrace the new wheel size?
The bike media, who spouted every single platitude spoon fed to them by the manufacturers.

And who touted 650b/the death of 26/the stupidity of those who refuse to embrace the new wheel size?
The bike media, who spouted every single platitude spoon fed to them by the manufacturers.

Doesn't make it untrue, does it?

true or untrue or exaggerated or understated or laden with whatever it's happened. Now would seem like a good time to move along.

I'm still waiting for the explosion in 650B+ 👿

Now would seem like a good time to move along.

Indeed. And you'll move along quicker on slightly bigger wheels... 😉

mikewsmith - Member
Now would seem like a good time to move along.

For who?

I think it does us good to be reminded of what a greedy, rapacious, cynical, dishonest bunch of shysters some of those in the industry are.

And the media reaction to 650b will always be there to remind us exactly how we are perceived by those who claim to represent and promote the best interests of 'our community'.

The bike industry doesn't care about what riders think or want, any further than if they can get people to buy their stuff. As riders, we owe them nothing. Frankly, I am excited about a move away from the massive companies by the folk exasperated by the dropping of the original 26" mtb wheel size. We can buy our bikes from smaller, more core companies, the odd one man bands even smaller than Cotic. The bike industry can go to hell, with their carbon and all that. Pfft.

I know communism must have created much better bikes than our capitalist approach ever could - have seen how popular bicycles were in China?

Complaining about cynical marketing bullshit and the forced introduction of new standards is promoting communism?

Wow.
🙂

To be fair to the bike industry (including the mags etc) they need something new to sell otherwise we'd all be happy with what we have and they didn't have a whole lot of other options.

They had an infinite number of options.

But they were all difficult ones - making things lighter/longer lasting/more accessible/comfier/more efficient/more fun is difficult.
Increasing market share is difficult.
Encouraging new people to take up the pastime is difficult.
Bringing genuine innovation to market at an accessible price is very difficult indeed.

Withdrawing an existing standard (and long term support for it) and replacing it with a pointless new one is much easier.

/\ That.

If the bike industry was struggling to sell their stuff, there are many ways they could have gone. What about making a move towards BMX, where a bike can be taken apart and built entirely with a 5 and 6mm Allen keys and a hammer? What about promoting their wares outside of the mega bucks racing world and more towards real grass roots events and initiatives, generating real rider goodwill? What about some more genuine geometry exploration?

There are so many more things than an incompatible, fractionally larger wheel size. That ain't communism, it's just not cynical and cheap.

Can't wait to see people's reaction to B+
Or B- ( though that's just me and Vee Rubber)

I agree; I'd rather they'd gone down those routes too, but would anybody really dump a perfectly good bike just to buy one that is slightly lighter or that can be taken apart with two allen keys? I doubt it. But clearly they will jump all over a new sized wheel.

I may not be happy with it, but I still can't blame the companies for behaving like companies.

Of course, we can behave like consumers and use our money to support those companies who have behaved in the way that we want. If enough of us do so then the companies will behave differently. Unfortunately it would seem that most of our peers just want to buy whatever is in fashion at the lowest price possible.

And who touted 650b/the death of 26/the stupidity of those who refuse to embrace the new wheel size?
The bike media, who spouted every single platitude spoon fed to them by the manufacturers.

meanwhile people are enjoying riding their [b]brand new 27.5/29"[/b]bike

Oh man. I was thinking about the Rocket yesterday. It must be very frustrating and stressful for Cy.

Withdrawing an existing standard (and long term support for it) and replacing it with a pointless new one is much easier.

It's only pointless in your opinion. I suspect it has a much greater effect on how a bike rides than the introduction of tapered steerers did - and they've caused equal problems for old frames. I was sceptical but I've spent most of the year riding a 27.5 full-sus and I'm now back on my 26 hardtail for winter. Based on that I've concluded that they're just a bit better for MTBing - I can see a disadvantage for dirt jumping, freeride, slopestyle and very small riders but for everyone else I suspect mountain biking just started out on a smaller than ideal wheel.

It's all very well arguing it's a tiny percentage change but a 2 degree change of head angle is equally small - and it feels really different!

I have it on good authority that the main reasons for shelving the 26 Rocket are nothing to do with manufacturing in the UK. The reason for scrapping it was mostly down to Cotics inability to secure a deal with the enduro grade 'pop' suppliers. The abundance of 'pop' was one of the selling points with the Rocket and people who had a natural 'pop' deficit (bad genes) were understandably very eager to sample this phenomenon. This lack of pop wont be as apparent on the 27b version. I'm not overly sure of the science behind it but it's to do with large wheels breathing life into trails or something.

And who touted 650b/the death of 26/the stupidity of those who refuse to embrace the new wheel size? The bike media, who spouted every single platitude spoon fed to them by the manufacturers.

See that guys holding a gun your head who is making you buy new bikes and forcing you read the magazines? If you want i'll have a word with him and ask him to stop.

See that guys holding a gun your head who is making you buy new bikes and forcing you read the magazines? If you want i'll have a word with him and ask him to stop.

I'm a victim of this. I relented and bought Pikes on the back of the fanfair and media hype. They are ok. They aren't the best thing though. I regret selling my sorted-55's. Lots of other kit that was bigged up by the mags that I couldn't see.

The man's running a business, give him a break; if his market feedback and manufacturing costs mean he can't sell enough 26" Rockets to make it economically viable then why would we expect him to make them?

I do feel for those who've pre-ordered one and are still waiting, but personally I would have cancelled my order and bought something else by now.

I do feel for those who've pre-ordered one and are still waiting, but personally I would have cancelled my order and bought something else by now.

brant - Member
Can't wait to see people's reaction to B+

hora - Member

I'm a victim of this. I relented and bought [b]Something[/b] on the back of the fanfair and media hype. They are ok. They aren't the best thing though. I regret selling my [b]Other thing[/b].

^TBF at least this was just about forks - I've done this with whole bikes!!

In fact I can think of 2 but I won't name and shame

For me its normally forks. Frames I just see something shiny/fancy something else. Never full bikes. Thats big wonga!

Fortuntately the 2 I'm thinking of were both bought 'reduced' as last years models 😉

Unfortunately they were both bought 😳

It's only pointless in your opinion. I suspect it has a much greater effect on how a bike rides than the introduction of tapered steerers did - and they've caused equal problems for old frames. I was sceptical but I've spent most of the year riding a 27.5 full-sus and I'm now back on my 26 hardtail for winter. Based on that I've concluded that they're just a bit better for MTBing - I can see a disadvantage for dirt jumping, freeride, slopestyle and very small riders but for everyone else I suspect mountain biking just started out on a smaller than ideal wheel.

It's all very well arguing it's a tiny percentage change but a 2 degree change of head angle is equally small - and it feels really different!

Bang on. Up to you if the difference is worth it or if it's better or worse but there is a difference.

As much as the evil manufacturers and mags force us to buy new stuff the simple fact is people like buying the latest thing regardless of the actual difference it makes. For examples see:

650b.
1x11.
Tapered forks.
Slacker and slacker frames.
Stans rims.
Pikes.
Carbon.
Wider and wider bars.
Shorter and shorter stems.

Most of the above might do the job better then what you had before but the margins are small and you don't 'need' any of them. Doesn't stop the vast majority of us, including those so very upset about 650b joining in to some degree.

Ultimately, this is the problem with having mtb culture tied inseparably to big corporate companies. We, as riders, should decide what we want from our bikes and our sport/activity/lifestyle. I would argue that a lot of the relentless tech progression is why so many talk about bikes rather than about riding, and why there is so little "culture" (literature, poetry, music, art) in mtbing.

Of course, this has nothing to do with Cy, who I feel sorry for.

I would argue that a lot of the relentless tech progression is why so many talk about bikes rather than about riding, and why there is so little "culture" (literature, poetry, music, art) in mtbing.

So on the one hand people spend too long talking about bikes, on the other hand they're not doing it in rhyme? And this is a bad thing because? Anyone care to contribute a haiku about 1x11, or a cubist painting depicting the inner turmoil over the 650b/29er decision?

The "relentless tech progression" is simply the result of people doing a lot of riding and thinking "how can we make this better next year". Yes making a new model for next year makes them more money, but it has to be better/different or no one would buy it! Pretty much every change people have moaned about is because someone sat down and drawn up something better. Frames's haven't be obsoleted by the 4x8 drivechain, or the reverse-tapered forks, or 24" wheels, they've all moved forewards. None of that makes an old bike any worse, just not as good as the new one in the shop.

All Cy's said is they're not making the 26" rocket any more as people now expect something better in that part of the market. The new one will inevitably have other tweeks too, internal dropper guides, maybe the ISCG will disappear as it's redundant, 650b+ tyre clerance, etc.

I think it does us good to be reminded of what a greedy, rapacious, cynical, dishonest bunch of shysters some of those in the industry are.

And the media reaction to 650b will always be there to remind us exactly how we are perceived by those who claim to represent and promote the best interests of 'our community'.

and why there is so little "culture" (literature, poetry, music, art) in mtbing

Shame about the Rocket. Would have had one in black, and customised the decals. It was just about my last hope for 26inch and threaded bottom bracket shell.

Lol masonsoul

I know what you mean. I can't imagine MTB equivalent of Norman mailer the fight anytime soon. Closer to home road photography and writing and bmx photography and video seems to be much richer than mountain bike. Privateer died on its arse. No old pros seem to do much writing. It's not a sport/pastime that seems to want to think about itself. Singletrack excepted of course 😉

[quote=eddie11 ]Lol masonsoul
I know what you mean. I can't imagine MTB equivalent of Norman mailer the fight anytime soon. Closer to home road photography and writing and bmx photography and video seems to be much richer than mountain bike. Privateer died on its arse. No old pros seem to do much writing. It's not a sport/pastime that seems to want to think about itself. Singletrack excepted of course Everyone enjoyed [i]Reveal the Path[/i] so much that it's never been followed.

Theres lots of good writing out there if you look for blogs and suchlike. Not everyone considers Strava to be the ultimate route to ascension.

It's really great that this thread has turned into a wheel size debate, eh?

why there is so little "culture" (literature, poetry, music, art) in mtbing.

Clearly you are not a man familiar with the Pinkbike comments section.

Hmmmm – I don’t agree with the notion that grasping bike companies are hawking kit that doesn’t confer any real world benefits to the sport/pastime and that we’re all mindlessly sucking it up, powerless passengers being railroaded. Granted there will be the odd exception as there is to everything in life, but in the main, as thisisnotaspoon has mentioned, those technological advances are for the betterment of the sport/pastime in terms of making bikes more durable/capable for their intended purpose, otherwise the respective companies just wouldn’t survive or remain competitive. [u]We[/u] are the drivers for this. I don’t feel I have to go 27.5/650b, 29 or whatever. I see it as having more options and diversity, which is good. There’s plenty of product out there to keep 26” alive for years if that’s your thing - as it is mine at the moment.

I think Cotic woukd be mad to bring out a 26 inch fs. A steel FS is already niche product to then make it even more niche by sticking with an obsolete wheel size doesn't make business sense. Not matter how much people on here might want one the market has moved on. I'm currently riding a 26inch 456 with 9 speed a straight headtube and qr wheels and non dropper post and absolutly love it. But my next bike and a i think its true for most will be 27.5 11 speed tapered headtube maxels and have a a dropper post.

They wouldnt wamt to stuck with a load of stock they couldn't shift quickly. Look at the Gyro's that Orange have just have to sell at less than 1/2 price.

It's really great that this thread has turned into a wheel size debate, eh?

Yes; will no-one think of the kittens?

Dig deep enough

http://www.churchoftherotatingmass.com/2014/12/02/are-we-not-journalists-part-2/ really is this what journalists think

And if you follow twitter you get a good idea why it "the rocket" didn't get made in this country, had far more to do with personalities than no ability to manufacture,

It's drilled home by calling it "27.5"( I do wish this bullshit would stop).

Good point! I just measured my 27.5 wheels and they're closer to 28" - and that's easier to say.

[img] [/img]
Still less than an inch bigger than a 26 with the same volume/height tyres.

deluded - Member
Hmmmm – I don’t agree with the notion that grasping bike companies are hawking kit that doesn’t confer any real world benefits to the sport/pastime and that we’re all mindlessly sucking it up, powerless passengers being railroaded. Granted there will be the odd exception as there is to everything in life, but in the main, as thisisnotaspoon has mentioned, those technological advances are for the betterment of the sport/pastime in terms of making bikes more durable/capable for their intended purpose, otherwise the respective companies just wouldn’t survive or remain competitive. We are the drivers for this. I don’t feel I have to go 27.5/650b, 29 or whatever. I see it as having more options and diversity, which is good. There’s plenty of product out there to keep 26” alive for years if that’s your thing - as it is mine at the moment.

The clue is on the user name.

There was a valid argument for 29ers as a wheel size for those who made 26" wheeled machines look like BMXs but for the rest of us there's no tangible benefit at least not enough of one to warrant making 95% of existing hardware obsolete overnight.

I don't know who instigated it or why anyone perpetuated it but it was the biggest con trick in MTB history and most people have fallen for it. OK it's mostly benign in that it's a just a bike with bigger wheels but it's allowed the industry to sell a load of completes at vastly inflated prices where I'd imagine thy wouldn't normally have done so. All in the name of fashion and progress.

Where did 650B/27.5 originate anyway?

Good luck with the new tweener Rocket Cy.

Still less than an inch bigger than a 26 with the same volume/height tyres.

Yes, they have the wrong name too. As do 29ers...

Have you ever stopped to consider that one reason 27.5 has proved popular is that it isn't closer to the 29 size? Maybe it is actually the (usually mythical marketing) sweet spot? 😛