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It's long overdue, I realise, but I felt it was time to update you on the Rocket situation even if there's not much to say, unfortunately.
First things first, we are no longer working with BML. Mike and I got to the point where we couldn't agree on how to move it forward in a way that worked for both Cotic and BML, and we haven't been working with him since 5th September. The reason why I didn't say anything at the time is that, as with anything involved in a partnership, there was a lot of things to sort out legally and financially and I wanted to be clear of all that before saying anything further. Since then I've been doing everything I can to make it happen, finding new fabricators to work with, adjusting the design and processes to work better with them, trying to get final prototypes made, but we're still not there and we still don't have a definitive frame design signed off.As for where we go from here, we still don't know for sure. We know there are Rockets in our future, we love the bike and we're desperate to get them back on sale, but realistically, regardless of where or how we get them made we are months and months away from having anything on sale. One thing for sure is that it won't be a 26" wheel frame. It's not that we think they're rubbish, or anything like that. Quite the opposite. My main bike is my Rocket 26. But commercial reality has to have a bearing on this, and although it was completely beyond our control, the wholesale adoption of the 27.5" wheel has made the situation more difficult for us.
The main problem from a practical point of view is that to package the 27.5" wheel the frame has much more in common with the 29er prototype we had made in Taiwan, and that 29er wasn't right. It didn't have enough stiffness and needed improvements which would read across to the 27.5". Developing processes, tooling and construction techniques to make the 26" wheel frame which was effectively very different from the larger wheel frames we know we need for the future made less and less sense as time has gone by. It was never just a case of making an identical frame to the Taiwanese version, because they are set up to make parts of the frame in ways which are very expensive or prohibitively difficult to do over here.
Trying to get things made over here is the hardest thing I've ever tried to do, and to know that not achieving it has let so many people down really hurts. This has been the most stressful, most difficult year of my life. We're still working on the project, and we will see where it takes us. It might be that in the end we have to go back to Taiwan and get them made there again. Regardless of where it's made it's a great bike which we have spent an awfully long time developing and we want people out there riding them. UK made would be great, but if we find out it doesn't make sense on any cost or quality grounds then we can't keep chasing a dream.
On the flipside of all this, we've had a great year with the hardtails and the best year ever on commuter bikes. We still have a great relationship with our suppliers in Taiwan and continue to do great things with them with all our non-suspension products. Thanks to everyone who has bought one this year, and all the years we've been doing this. We love that you love Cotic bikes and we love hearing about it. It makes us keep on keeping on!Cheers,
Cy
Well written Cy. Still riding an >X< and a Solaris thanks to Cotic 🙂
Hope the Rocket dream works out...
Just get em made in Taiwan.....no bugger gives a toss where they are made anymore.
Got to feel for them, it can't have been easy making some of those decisions. They seem a nice bunch and I'm certainly pleased with the Solaris I bought earlier in the year. It's brilliant.
The Rocket has caused such a headache for Cy. Amazing how difficult it can be to bring one product to market in the UK.
Why not have hardtails built in Uk, full sus in Taiwan?
er...
You have to feel for them, they tried to create a British product made here and it hasn't quite worked out. Get them built in Taiwan and get the sales back in and maybe try again with a hardtail built over here to start with.
It's a real shame. Looks like it'll be 27.5 when it finally arrives..
when it finally arrives..
if
🙁
I wonder if he could fit a 140mm 27.5 in there without having to split the seat tube? Or if not, how much the travel would have to be reduced?
Sounds like the move to 150mm 27.5 is giving headaches.
So despite the fact that the 26" is the best option, they're going to try and amend a poor 29" to suit. Come on cy, plough your own furrow. If the 26 is the best bike, then make it!
[i]If the 26 is the best bike, then make it! [/i]
he wants to sell them, not just make them...
I had been hoping they'd buck the trend and stick with 26". It would become a niche bike which is what Cotic started out doing and would appeal to all the people who haven't swallowed the 27.5 BS. Come on Cy, go with your heart! So long as 26" rims and tyres are still available there will be demand.
he wants to sell them, not just make them...
People want the best bike though, do they not?
I'd prefer 26'' over a modified 29er to fit 27.5''. Sounds like an afterthought.
[i]People want the best bike though, do they not? [/i]
People want a bike they perceive will have new models of fork developed for it etc and, frankly, they believe that 650B is the way forward to get the best bike.
Even very large manufacturers who were 'never' going to switch to 650B are doing so.
Cy would be daft to try and develop and sell a new 26" bike in the current marktet. Even if things go well and he could start production in Taiwan soon it'd be May or June next year before he had anything to sell.
Cy would be daft to try and develop and sell a new 26" bike in the current marktet.
Have I missed something? Does he need to develop a 26" bike? I thought he'd done that?
Get 50 or 100 made up and see how they go.
In the mean time, carry on developing the 27.5 (from the ground up).
Judging from what I read all over the place (particularly the UK), there is still very much an appetite for 26".
So despite the fact that the 26" is the best option, they're going to try and amend a poor 29" to suit. Come on cy, plough your own furrow. If the 26 is the best bike, then make it!
Thing is, if no one buys it?
I still suspect that [i]26" aint dead[/i] was to some extent or another [i]26" stock ain't shifted yet[/i]
I have nothing against 26" bikes, some of my best friends still ride them, but I'd not buy another small wheeled bike after swapping to a 29er for my main bike, it's just better. If that's difficult to package into all frame styles I'll take the biggest wheels I can get before it becomes too much of a comprimise, which for most seems to be 650b.
And he doesn't actualy say the 26" bike is better only "[i]it won't be a 26" wheel frame. It's not that we think they're rubbish, or anything like that. Quite the opposite. My main bike is my Rocket 26[/i]. Bikes don't get worse with time (wear and tear excepted), but new oens do get developed which are better (or very occasionaly worse).
[i]Get 50 or 100 made up and see how they go.[/i]
and if they don't? For a small business it could mean a big cash hole and problems. He could go down the kickstarter route like Sam has but that's fraught with difficulty too.
Given he had some problems with the original Rocket production I think it's not just a case of clicking a button and handing over £50k to get another 100 frames made. It's not development from scratch but it's not an off the shelf purchase either.
but I'd not buy another small wheeled bike after swapping to a 29er for may main bike, it's just better.
Funny old world. I hate 29ers, I just think they're not very good. Great for an XC racer, not so good for the rest of us.
And he doesn't actualy say the 26" bike is better
But he does say;
the 27.5" wheel the frame has much more in common with the 29er prototype we had made in Taiwan, and that 29er wasn't right. It didn't have enough stiffness and needed improvements which would read across to the 27.5".
Read into it what you like, it seems to me like he's saying that the 29 isn't very good at present, and the 26 is.
27.5" front, 26 Rear ?
[i]it seems to me like he's saying that the 29 isn't very good at present, and the 26 is. [/i]
I agree.
He's still not going to start selling 26" Rocket's again though.
I read the update earlier, spoken from the heart as always.
No 26 means no sale to me although to be honest if I bought anything it would be a used Bandit.
Years ago I met the original owner of Saracen, he told me how although he loved the idea of UK built bikes when he went over and saw the Taiwan factory there was no contest, it was better quality work and cheaper. There are some things which require scale and bike manufacture is one of them, a big factory will have the infrastructure and scale to make good bikes and in smaller run sizes too. He told me a story about how in the UK you had to submit technical drawings to the manufacturer and they would come back in a month with a quote, in Taiwan you gave them a sketch and they came back to the hotel in the morning with a prototype.
Read into it what you like, it seems to me like he's saying that the 29 isn't very good at present, and the 26 is.
Except the Cotic enduro team riders chose to race the 29er prototype rather than the 26 Rocket...
Hands up how many people actually want to buy a 26" frame, with their own money at around £1.5k now?
Not just if you think it'd be cool if a someone was making them, or you would "if you were in the market".
Actually quite relieved to see he's not persisting with 26" because I'd like to see the company survive and thrive if possible.
Except the Cotic enduro team riders chose to race the 29er prototype rather than the 26 Rocket...
Except he's still saying it's not good enough to sell.
You should call and tell him if you know better though, he'll probably be really pleased.
My hand would be up for a 26" frame* and I am pretty sure most of the people I ride with would as well.
It may well be that a smaller company like cotic could fill the niche for people still wanting 26" stuff ?
* Not that I will be buying a frame any time soon.
He's still not going to start selling 26" Rocket's again though.
It's his business, and it's quite easy for me to sit here with nothing at risk and tell him to carry on making the 26's.
You should call and tell him if you know better though, he'll probably be really pleased.
Yep, you should definately do this.
Hands up how many people actually want to buy a 26" frame, with their own money at around £1.5k now?
Well I'd rather not pay £1.5k but if that's what a Bandit frame cost then perhaps. I keep my bikes a long time, that's why I am not in the market. If all I can buy is 275 I'll be riding these bikes until everything breaks like the wheels and forks etc.
To be a little harsh 26 Rockets were selling, Cotic just couldn't get them made to the right quality. What Cy has said is the dynamic has changed now and going 26 only is too risky
My hand would be up for a 26" frame** Not that I will be buying a frame any time soon
These two statements tend to go hand in hand! 😉
I hope the Rocket returns, with whatever wheel size, and if does then UK manufacture would be nice. It may be that a relatively mass-market product like this is just too expensive to manufacture in the UK with locally available methods and setting up a more efficient factory is just too big a leap for a small company.
I'm glad I stopped waiting last autumn and really glad the bike I bought instead has proven to be brilliant! But it would be nice to see more Rockets out there, wherever they come from.
Feel for them but they make great hardtails and my solaris is a great bike 🙂
It was always a noble aspiration to bring frame building back to the UK (creating jobs/skills etc.), but aside from that, I don’t think the consumer is hugely bothered if the frame is from Far Eastern supply. We know those countries have an unarguably skilled labour force, particularly when producing carbon layups through proprietary molding processes. It must be frustrating though, being a designer in the UK and having to work within time and technological restraints imposed by oversees manufacturing.
My sympathies are with Cy – ultimately this is his livelihood as well as his passion. His business must compete effectively and make a profit. I don’t think the 26” is commercially dead (I certainly hope not) – would I rest my pension on that belief though – no, I wouldn’t.
I'd probably buy a 26" rocket if he did a limited run... not in the market for 27.5 for some time tho
I really appreciated his honesty tbh. He tried...it failed. Can't blame him for his attempt.
As for the 27.5 thing, well him and Paul presumably have family to support, so sticking with 26" could be a gamble not only with the business, but also to those they hold most dear.
This sucks for cy and all those who originally ordered a rocket all that time ago.
IMHO he Has to go 27.5 now because of the market. What I don't understand (sure there's a good reason) is why he didn't get a batch of Taiwan rockets made soon after the first batch. He must have had enough pre orders to order another run and at the time, the rocket buzz was huge and the 27.5 move hadn't really happened.
I love my bandit but I'm a real Cotic fan and I'd have had the min rocket like a shot instead if it had been available, but that's a whole other story I guess
wrecker - MemberRead into it what you like, it seems to me like he's saying that the 29 isn't very good at present, and the 26 is.
The 29er's proved itself pretty well in proto form tbh. "It's not right" doesn't mean "it's not very good"- it could equally mean "It's going to be very good... But it's not right, yet". Or even "It's already very good but it's going to be better" The Hemlock was very good, but wasn't right until a few revs were in.
Cy might very well think the 26 is a great bike, but he's already got one, he doesn't need any more in his shed. For whatever reason, 650b is the thing now, he'd be a mug to make another 26er without guaranteed pre-orders, and he can't take pre-orders til the manufacturing's 100% sorted so it's catch 22. Just about every other manufacturer's got out of 26 inch wheels and he has more reason than most.
I hope it works out.
When a self confessed 26" fan says he won't be making a 26" x you know the game's up so all those saying they'll never buy anything but 26" should get ready for a long wait. Must admit I'm surprised how quickly things have changed but can't say I'm all that bothered.
I hope Cotic can get this sorted as they seem like a good, honest company. Shows why the likes of Orange struggle to meet certain price points or embrace stuff like carbon.
Must admit I'm surprised how quickly things have changed but can't say I'm all that bothered.
Same here. I just replaced my bike with another 26" last year, and there were only a couple of 650b options on the shortlist then!
But I usually keep bikes for a several years, and I don't keep a shed full of spendy bits tying me to a particular size, so as long as I can get parts (which I don't think will be a problem) I'll just ride what I've got till it's replacement time and then I guess I'll just choose from whatever the standard is then.
Anyhoo, it would be a heart over head thing for Cotic to insist on flying the flag for 26" at this point. They've no real option but to go 650 IMO.
The 29er's proved itself pretty well in proto form tbh. "It's not right" doesn't mean "it's not very good"- it could equally mean "It's going to be very good... But it's not right, yet". Or even "It's already very good but it's going to be better" The Hemlock was very good, but wasn't right until a few revs were in.
A bit selective. He said a bit more than "it's not right" and if it's not good for more than a few races then it's worthless in the marketplace
Agreed. Apart from a few maybes on here there doesn't seem to be much interest in 26" new bikes. Saying you'd have one but have no intention of changing bike doesn't count.
Mather01 - i dont think he's financed by the taliban ......is he?
That said it could have been the making of cotic if they'd caught the enduro bow wave. Shows his nouse that it wasnt the end of them. Would have finished a lot of small companies
@wrecker- I wouldn't say it's selective, the full quote is
"that 29er wasn't right. It didn't have enough stiffness and needed improvements". That doesn't sound chronic- in fact it sounds like why you make a prototype.
Not sure what "not good for more than a few races" means?
To be fair, if the bike designer says it's not right, then it's probably a fair way from being "right".
Al pretty much irrelevant though. Si is building a 650B and as long as he doesn't call it a ****ing "27.5" then I wish him all the very best with it.
Sorry to hear it's not worked out, so glad I got mine 😆 There doesn't seem to be an emoticon for smug git!
I can only wish them the best of luck.
Funny old world. I hate 29ers, I just think they're not very good. Great for an XC racer, not so good for the rest of us.
This ^^^
But I speak from having a Rocket and I will ride it until either it falls to bits or I do. I'll be doing my best to delay both, whilst riding it hard, and I'll be making sure I've plenty of 26" stuff to carry on with.
A 29er is never going to be as chuckable as a 26er and I hate the fact that the industry is deciding that we all need to buy in to the big wheeled "revolution" but hey I'm a luddite.
(Yes, I've tried a 29")
Al pretty much irrelevant though. Si is building a 650B and as long as he doesn't call it a ****ing "27.5" then I wish him all the very best with it.
I don't know why anyone would call a 27.5 wheel 650B? 650B means the outside diameter of the tyre is 650mm and the tyre is "B" width, a middling width (~35mm) touring tyre. It's also called 26 x 1 1/2. Considering that the outside diameter is about 715mm and the rim diameter is 584mm and the tyre widths 2.1 to 2.5" I struggle to understand using an old touring tyre designation. Call the MTB standards 22, 23 and 24.5 and it makes a lot more sense. Or 27, 28 and 29.5 because that's what you get with a good sized tyre.
(Yes, I've tried a 29")
I guess trying ONE is perfect for making an opinion about them all.
The next person to make sweeping generalisation about wheel sizes gets a slap....
Spot on business thinking to drop the 26", unless enough people all call him in the next 5 days and PP Gift him the RRP for the frame right now you wouldn't even consider making a batch. Thats it folks money where your mouth is.
chiefgrooveguru - MemberI don't know why anyone would call a 27.5 wheel 650B?
Because it's either that or you buy into the marketing toss and pretend that it's really halfway between 26 and 29.
From what was said I imputed the 29’r was a no goer and that was that.
Not sure what "not good for more than a few races" means?
Was wrecker referring to this -
chiefgrooveguru - Member
...
[b]Except the Cotic enduro team riders chose to race the 29er prototype rather than the 26 Rocket... [/b]
Funny old world. I hate 29ers, I just think they're not very good. Great for an XC racer, not so good for the rest of us.
+2
Not read this thread all the way through - and apologies for my ignorance over the next question...I saw a Rocket in Keswick MTB last year and though it was a great looking bike...what's happened to it and why such heartache all round?
Because it's either that or you buy into the marketing toss and pretend that it's really halfway between 26 and 29.
Would that be the 29 that's only 2.5" bigger than 26? 😛
Would that be the 29 that's only 2.5" bigger than 26?
And even then, it's still not halfway between both.
Face it the reality is that for Enduro bikes which the Rocket roughly falls into its all about 650B, and so really the only option is to follow.
Personally I still think steel is the wrong material for a full sus, despite Cy's claims. But the one plus point for Cotic is at least it does differentiate you from the competition.
Funny old world. I hate 29ers, I just think they're not very good. Great for an XC racer, not so good for the rest of us.
Have you tried the non XC ones?
Yep. A variety including an enduro. I'm happy that they're not for me, just the same as some love them.
better than most making some sweeping comments 🙂 I guess in 2-3 years the debate might have died off and people shop for a bike not a wheel size though.
To be honest, with pretty much all of the DH bikes having gone 650, 26 is going if not gone. 29 is now looking like it's going to be the XC option. With regards to longer travel, there aren't many 2015 29ers are there?
The ones I'm seeing (you have to discount the BS tastic Spec/Giant from the list) are 29 seems to be covering the trail end of stuff up to AM and 650b taking over from there. Considering how long 26" took to get to the level of bike that was available I think the next 2-3 years will be a settling period for the industry with some refinements and probably one or two "Best Bike" types shaking things up.
The vast majority of AM (shouldn't we be calling it enduro now?) seem to be 650 to me. Two remedy models and a few enduros aside
Even the trail end of the spectrum is mostly 650.
Bronsons, solos, scouts, sb5/6c etc etc.
I guess this is proof (if proof were needed) that it doesn't matter how good your product is if you don't have your supply chain sorted. Cotic made a great bike and a few years ago there was good demand for that bike. They took a gamble on trying to manufacture it in the UK and as a consequence lost out on a lot of sales. That's got to hurt.
Maybe that's why Orange prefer to stick with processes that they know well. They may get stick for not being innovative enough, but at least they know that they can make the number of bikes they need when they need them.
The whole wheelsize thing has certainly hurt Cotic. Without it the Rocket being late would still be annoying, but not such a disaster. I just hope that they don't finally release a 650B version of the Rocket just as the rest of the industry swings back to 26".
Still, if Cy wants to make a bit of money in the meantime he could always write a book on the whole saga. I bet he's got a few stories to tell.
I get the impression that the hardtail business was always going to be Cotic's bread and butter so, the (current) failure of the full suss project is not the end of the world. All that effort plowed in so far though (and not just Cy's), must be pretty soul destroying. TBH not many folks would have even attempted it so it's one of those things that getting close and failing is still pretty damn cool
wrecker - MemberThe vast majority of AM (shouldn't we be calling it enduro now?) seem to be 650 to me. Two remedy models and a few enduros aside
Most of the big manufacturers have a 29er... And for the Remedy there's minor achievements like winning the EWS, being Dirt's trailbike of the year... Still the best bike I've ever ridden, it and the big Five really opened my eyes to what a 29er can ride like.
throw in things like the Tallboy LT and the RM instinct and there are a few knocking on the door. Some tweaks and there will be some great bikes on the market especially for those that can ride them well. I'm really enjoying my new 100mm 29r FS as it's making me ride better
Surely there must be thousands of people with quality wheels and fork that are 26"? Surely they would buy a frame that worked with 26" now but 27.5" later?
I loved my ugly old Hemlock, and I'm sure I'd love a Rocket but it it would need to work with my Hope Hoops & Pike forks.
Surely there must be thousands of people with quality wheels and fork that are 26"? Surely they would buy a frame that worked with 26" now but 27.5" later?
How many of them want a new frame, can you make a 26/650 hybrid that is not a compromise at either size. Wheels (if you got quality hubs) are just rims and spokes away from being 650, some forks work, some can be spaced.
Yeah, I've got a ton of top end 26er stuff but if I wanted a new frame for them, I'd buy one of the million undervalued used frames that are out there now, rather than a new frame. Obviously not everyone is into buying used, but then, the sort of person that's hoarded 26er parts and wants to build a totally new bike out of them is probably more likely to be?
I guess it all just comes down to, is it better to be a little fish in the big pond of 650b and 29, or to be one of the 2 fish in the dried up 26er pond.
Option 3's obviously dropouts like Banshee, but that's not really a perfectionist's option.
I said on another thread the job had gone to the wall.
I can't believe people are still clinging to the vain hope 26" will be a viable wheel size for the future, it's over guys!
Shame Cy couldn't realise his dream it's undoubtedly cost him a fortune but at least he hasn't got a shed full of unsellable 26" stock...apart from the hardtails.
I've been a regular frame changer but all this has put me off, I'm just going to look after my frame and ride it till it dies. If I was buying a whole bike then I wouldn't care if it had different wheels, in fact, I'd love a go on a Codiene. I just don't like being forced to change.
As Northwind says, fingers crossed, there will be lots of great 2nd hand frames to choose from. I suppose, I feel now about mountain bikes like I do about motorbikes. My old and long gone 52 plate Gixxer 600 was so much fun and so far beyond my abilities that everything produced since is just more than I can hope to exploit. Most modern mountain bikes are surely the same and have been since they all got a little slacker with lower BB's. Whatever size wheels, they're all loads of fun & very capable in the right hands 🙂
In a few years, when my bike dies and the whole forward geometry thing has settled down, I'll treat myself to a new 2nd hand one..
And back to what I meant to say originally, it's a shame about the whole project, I loved my Hemlock, I'd like to try and Soul at some point and a 26" Rocket would have been on my list.
Surely there must be thousands of people with quality wheels and fork that are 26"?
True, but with regular use how long do they last, 6 months a tyre, 2 years of trail use will kill most wheels, forks maybe 3?
+1I guess in 2-3 years the debate might have died off and people shop for a bike not a wheel size though.
Dismissing a wheel size is like saying you dont like bikes with 67.8deg head angles as they're too inbetween 67 and 68, and not really half way between anyway, and there'll always be someone who thinks they should be sold as 1.18333recuring radians not degree.
2 years of trail use will kill most wheels, forks maybe 3?
the hope hoops (soft as cheese dt5.1) on my soul and the fox talas forks are going on for 8 years about 3000 varied miles a year and still look good for a few years yet.
True, but with regular use how long do they last, 6 months a tyre, 2 years of trail use will kill most wheels, forks maybe 3?
This is STW, most bikes don't get ridden so they'll last ages! 🙂
Most of the big manufacturers have a 29er... And for the Remedy there's minor achievements like winning the EWS, being Dirt's trailbike of the year... Still the best bike I've ever ridden
Some odd points. The EWS has been won on a 26" Cannondale and (absolutely blitzed) a 650B Yeti. Doesn't make them the best bikes in the world.
Some like 29s, some don't. I don't.
It's looking like my options for a shorter travel 26" FS frame now rest almost soley with either expensive custom or Chinese carbon.
wrecker - MemberSome odd points. The EWS has been won on a 26" Cannondale and (absolutely blitzed) a 650B Yeti. Doesn't make them the best bikes in the world.
Nope, but it proves the capability and suitability for the job.
Graves switched midseason btw, he was on the 26er Yeti til, I think, Colorado.
Nope, but it proves the capability and suitability for the job.
Is it in doubt? Its a long travel full sus, of course it's suitable!
More pertinently of course, it was ridden by Tracy Mosely. Same goes for the Yeti, Graves just wins races. DH, XC, Enduro. Doesn't matter really.
Mosely would probably have won on a 650b, and graves would probably have won on a 29.
Funny, didn't think this was a wheel size post but, I'm thinking of trying 26 in my 650b frame coz I kinda miss the excitement and reaction speed..
I've had all of them, still got a 29, it is horses for courses imho! It depends what you like and what/how/where you ride and how good you are...
On topic I liked the rocket, like the company, applaud the effort and hope it comes good. I also think 650b is the right business decision, like it or not the industry and target market has decided that.
wrecker - MemberIs it in doubt?
Apparently...
wrecker - MemberI hate 29ers, I just think they're not very good. Great for an XC racer, not so good for the rest of us.
Apparently...
And I bet that there isn't a 29 enduro or remedy for much longer.....2 years maybe.
This is STW, most bikes don't get ridden so they'll last ages!
True, since joining the real world after university my bike kit lasts much longer 🙁
Need to sets some propper goals for next year.