[Closed] Copper grease and brake pads - anyone still do this?

The science is stopping the pad from vibrating through friction against the face of the piston.
It works.

Car pads (sometimes) come with anti squeel shims, which are just pad shaped bits of copper. I've sometimes wondered if a a bit of sticky back copper tape would work on bike pads.

The modern equivalent is ceratech grease anyway. Much better in every way (other than not costing £2.99 for a tub that'll last a lifetime, it's £8 for a tube, which probably will still last a lifetime).

Saw some trials riders recently recommending applying tape on the back of pads to quieten them. Apparently a plaster works!

Grease and Brakes 😕 Never a good combo.

Yeah ok, maybe on a car, with 4 wheels and 4 brakes and far more powerful brakes at that. But on a lightweight bike, as your only method of stopping 😕 I'd say bad idea.

I have done it. Done properly and carefully you don't contaminate pads but I found it made no difference

Id go for the chamfer and sipes myself.

What spoon said. I use hi temp silicone grease paste stuff. Because it's what I use on the car. Safe for rubber, resists washout really well. And keeps the pads quiet.

@dyna-ti I would have said the same thing but apparently it is the done thing by many so I'm assuming contamination isn't a common issue.

I actually tinkered with anti-squeal tape in my Spyres but it was too thick, had to remove pad adjusters to fit pads and tape, which of course meant no adjustment.

There is probably a solution to that, cutting shims from coke cans and using as spacers instead of the pad adjusters perhaps...

Thanks for heads up on ceratech, will have a look.

I had horrendous issues with brakes squealing constantly, not even when braking. You could see the vibration through the caliper and traveling around the bike. Tried 2 sets of new brake pads, aligning brakes, everything I could think of. Copper grease fixed it in the end.

Is this the stuff @thisisnotaspoon?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B007IZ4VOG/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_FEGD3G9TRB9JZ30QM8MB

Cheers bud.

Wakos v-160 brake protector is supposed to be the best stuff and is specifically designed for this very issue. It's not cheap though. It's not just that it's not cheap, I thing £ per g, it might be the most expensive grease I'm aware of.

Do your brakes squeel on all your bikes or just this one? I've just got one bike that squeeks, the others are fine.

I've found that different bikes with the same brakes, wheels and pads can have different outcomes. Almost like it's down to the frame, hub or disc resonating and it's really annoying.

Why does my bike squeel like a pig but yours doesn't?

I guess it could be down to how you bed them in but we've even done that the same and my other bikes are fine.

I'm currently using a little brake setting tool recommended by @bikerevivesheffield and that has actually made a difference so far! Maybe it was user error or maybe I just got lucky 🤣

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-4pc-MTB-Disc-Brake-Pads-Adjusting-Tool-Bicycle-Rotor-Alignment-Bike-Repair-Kit-/124715582542?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

Do your brakes squeel on all your bikes or just this one? I’ve just got one bike that squeeks, the others are fine.

Spyres with Swissstop green pads and 140mm catalyst rotors on my gravel bike, deores with shimano resin and 160mm XT rotors on 29er. Shortly going to try some yellow (RS) Swissstop pads in the 29er but I genuinely don't think it's a pad, rotor, alignment or bedding in issue, I think it's just a combination of weight and riding style (I'm not an aggressive braker nor never will be, a lot of my rides don't really call for much hard braking!).

Will try mechanical solutions first do will chamfer pad edges and maybe try some shallow sipes in pad, will then look at grease products above or even have another go with the anti squeal tape, it was promising for the Spyres at least.

https://m.pinkbike.com/news/tech-tuesday-silence-that-squeaky-disc-brake-2011.html

https://www.magura.com/en/maximize-your-brake/

Thanks Paton, my bedding-in game is pretty much on point, any better and I'd be spending a disproportionate amount of my riding time just bedding in brakes!

Interested on Magura adding mass to e-rotors to damp out squeal, wonder how out of place they might be on a CX bike 😁

I think it’s just a combination of weight and riding style

I think ( having followed your tale and being interested in discs and stuff) you are getting "cold glazing" where the pads get a polished surface from never getting hot enough. that can lead to squeal

Won't additional mass mean the rotors heat up even less and so cause more squealing?

Scotroutes - but may change the resonant frequency so stopping the squeal

Good point Scotroutes, I deliberately installed 140mm rotors despite my 87kg heft in order that they might heat up quicker, and since I doubt e-rotors come in a 140mm size they would probably takeeven longer to heat up.

Is probably a moot point, on the CX bike the braking is so infrequent and brief that I doubt any rotor would ever heat up, hence seeking a solution that might keep them quiet even when rotor is wet.

Well I've had a horrible raspy noise coming from my rear Code on the ebike and I thought I'd tried everything to fix it. I just put a tiny bit of Castrol red rubber grease on the back of the pad and bingo, its gone!

you could try taking off the top surface of the pads, as they may have glazed over, and give the rotors the once over with some wet'n'dry. then re-bed in on a steepish hill?

I tend to agree with TJ, I think they're glazed

I'll check re: cold glaze, but they've been doing it ever since the very first bedding in ride, I basically bedded them in (in the dry) outside my house, 20 hard 'almost' stops so never locking wheel etc. etc. then went for a quick ride and got caught in rain, and they squealed. Once dried, they stopped.

I've done a few rides but unusually for me some of these rides actually did require some decent hard braking, or included some good peaty, gritty muddy sections, so overall I doubt it's a glaze thing.

Easy to check though.

I doubt it's glazing, I'm about your weight and run 160/140 and they're slightly blued, albeit that was the result of a trip upto Yorkshire where they were dragged a lot! But even down south they never feel overpowered enough to be at risk of not warming up.

Is this the stuff @thisisnotaspoon?

Looks like it but mines in a yellow tube. Not sure if ceratech is a grease that brands can stick in their own tubes, or an additive that they add to their own base. Either way they all seem to market it for the same purpose so I'd guess it's all similar at least.

^^ ok, cheers mate.👍

Being methodical, experiment number 1: chamfering pad edges. Result: no noticeable improvements, invoked a stampede when braking near to a field of horses after a few puddle splashes 🙄

On that basis I doubt sipes will work but will give it a shot next, then copper grease/Ceratech

Here's a thing I have noticed.

Pads bedded in in the winter do not squeal in the wet. Pads bedded in in dry weather really squeal in the wet.

I have seen it recommended that bedding pads in with a drag to stop then dousing the hot pads with muddy water is the way to go. To be honest I just drag my brakes a bit down the hill outside my house and call it job done...

I had a bit of flutter and a lot of wet squeal on my 105 brakes on my road bike from new in October last year. I hadn't touched the brakes assuming they'd been set up by Cube. I took at look at the rear though a few weeks ago and noticed it wasn't centred, so I centred it - flutter gone, only a slight squealing left.

I have seen it recommended that bedding pads in with a drag to stop then dousing the hot pads with muddy water is the way to go.

Its suggested but its a stupid idea. It won't help brakes bed in and will cause thermal shock

Bedding in is 3 things, curing the pads with heat and pressure, conforming the pads to the disc and depositing a thin layer of pad material on the disc

13th - if you want another pair of eyes to check your set up give me a shout. sometimes another pair of eyes sees something different

Its suggested but its a stupid idea.

Fair enough!

Recently got some EBC pads (green) from Merlin. In the front brake, first time my Shimano road brakes have been silent in the wet. Last week rears needed replacing, so got EBC F&R now. Next wet ride will report back if they're still silent... Not that anyone believes me.

Its suggested but its a stupid idea. It won’t help brakes bed in and will cause thermal shock

So when I go down a massive hill/mountain and do lots of braking do I have to make sure I miss the puddle at the bottom?

Being methodical, experiment number 1: chamfering pad edges. Result: no noticeable improvements, invoked a stampede when braking near to a field of horses after a few puddle splashes

Updating for posterity/future forum searches.

Experiment number 2: I tried some "automotive anti-squeal shims" this weekend. They basically look like glorified gaffer tape so it might just be that the adhesive is rated for higher temps or something.

Obviously they add a bit of thickness to the pads but by winding my Spyres right out I could just squeeze them in (secondary problem - the rotors ran free but there was all sorts of horrible dragging going on after every puddle/muddy bit, evidently not enough real world clearance).

First signs were good but sadly I think this was just because I hadn't properly got them wet, after a few downpours/puddle splashes/wet undergrowth they were back to their howling best. Once I'd eventually braked long enough and hard enough to dry them off they would go back to silent, powerful braking, but on a long ride of quiet roads and gravel tracks I wasn't really doing much braking, no need!

Interestingly the howling hadn't changed pitch/tone/volume so it's almost as if the noise isn't caused by pads vibrating against pistons as I'd expect a layer of tape to have at least changed the note slightly.

On this basis I'll skip straight to cutting slots in pads, if a (relatively) thick layer of tape between pad and piston doesn't solve the issue then I'm not sure how a thin layer of copper grease/Ceratec would.

I did wonder about trying a layer of the anti-squeal tape between the rotor and the hub though, would be a fiddle to fit it around the centre lock spines unfortunately. Or could the leading edge of the pads be vibrating against the front of the calliper (e.g. as they move in the direction of rotor rotation?). Don't think you could squeeze any tape in there unfortunately.

The noise is from slip and grip cycles on the pad / discs - high frequency resonance. that then resonates thru the fork legs and hub. try adding lead weights to all the disc spokes? 🙂

I think you have just nailed the issue - your riding style you end up not using the brakes hard enough and end up with a polished surface on the pads which is then prone to squeeling in the wet.

I assume mastic tape would be way too thick to put on the back of pads?

Might be worth a try on part-worn pads though, if you have brakes with plenty of clearance like Shimano.

In general I don't disagree with what you're saying but I don't agree it's polished pads, I do pull hard stops from time to time and they get exposed to a bit of grit now and then (plus I'll give them a wee rub on a sheet of wet and dry quite frequently).

If they ARE getting polished then they're becoming so literally within a few stops of leaving the garage at times which I don't think is possible.

I did wonder about adding adhesive wheel balancing weights to the spokes of the rotors, but with 140mm rotors there's barely any space to do so!

Interesting engineering experiment if nothing else...

Might be worth a try on part-worn pads though, if you have brakes with plenty of clearance like Shimano.

I would, but given how little difference the tape made yesterday I don't think tape behind the pads is the answer. I think the noise is between pads and rotors so as TJ says it might be worth trying to modify the harmonic of the rotor somehow, or stopping the vibration at source (cutting slots in the pads).

Absolutely gubbed after yesterday's ride so think I'll have a rest during the week and just pray for wet conditions next weekend for experiment number 3! 😁

Sticky pistons can often be the issue especially with bikes often being duel pot. Had horrendous juddering and fix in the end was to coax the pistons in and out with dot fluid / mineral oil depending on make. Been silent since.

Straying away from my own thread title now but have read up on a couple of interesting things to try

1) Tying the spokes. Someone claimed wrapping the spoke crossings in electrical tape cured a squeal although I can't imagine electrical tape really doing much in terms of damping or physically restraining the spokes. Since I have 3 sheets of that automotive damping material free I'm tempted just to insert a little bit in between each spoke crossing, not very labour intensive and won't cost anything to try...

2) There is *just* space between the front and back edge of the pads and the calliper body to insert a layer of the damping material, so if the pads were vibrating back and forth (in direction of rotor rotation, which seems more likely in a stick-slip situation) this might catch it.

3) I notice Avid did a solid rotor specifically to help resolve squealing on certain combinations of brake and frame? £50 posted for a pair from Germany, but what are the drawbacks to a solid rotor??

Whilst I thought that the grease on the pad trick fix my issue, it came right back on the next ride. Since then, I have taken a palm sander to the pads and aggressively to the rotors, thoroughly cleaning them with Muc Off disk brake cleaner before and after and re bedding them all again. Touch wood this seems to have fixed my issue.

Do folk get brakes that squeal badly in the dry then?

Pretty sure that the only ones I've had squeal in the dry were Shimano with a leaky caliper. Leaking hardly effects braking performance, but makes them honk!
Even my SRAMs were squealing yesterday, but I did go through a few hub deep puddles. I don't think grease will help with that.

i tried copper grease and it made no difference so I'm back to my usual trick of blasting the pads with a blowtorch when they get to squealy.  Seems to work every time so far

Do folk get brakes that squeal badly in the dry then?

Oddly, I get a very light chirrup on my RX4s in the dry, but they're silent in the wet. A pad change made no difference.

Aye, defo never had pads squeal in the dry Dez, which rules out any resonance really. And it'd be low frequency, not high frequency.

Check axle is tight and no play in wheel bearings.
Align caliper.
Clean rotor.
Deglaze pads.
Suitable grease on back of pad.
Re-bed.
Cross fingers and ride!

Sorry, another update. This was already an unhealthy obsession of mine but now it has become a little engineering project! 😁

1) Tying the spokes.

I was quite hopeful about this actually, had read a couple of comments elsewhere from people who had eradicated squeal by tying/wrapping spoke crossovers, and also SRAM had patented a little rubber cone which sat between disc and spokes, with the specific aim of damping disc brake noise. I tightly wrapped each crossover with electrical tape then glued the ends to stop it unravelling. I was under no illusion that a few wraps of electrical tape would stop the spokes moving against one another, but figured it might damp out any resonance or excessive vibration.

Forced myself out into the rain last night to check out some local trails. As usual brakes were impressively quiet and strong once I'd burned off what little rain had accumulated on the rotors, but after a few puddle splashes, prolonged showers and lots of wet undergrowth, they were back to their noisy best. No change at all in note or volume.

So I think I have now ruled out noise from pads against pistons, and noise being amplified via spokes, it is quite obviously noise generated between pad and disc and being amplified by the rotors. I've got some EBC red pads coming which are apparently exceptionally soft (I'm not worried about wear, I don't brake much on this bike...) but will reluctantly follow through on my idea of cutting slots in the pads to try and stop the noise.

I also see Magura do thicker, stiffer e-bike rotors in 160mm which will be my next experiment although I don't believe they could be any stiffer than my 140mm, 2mm thick Swissstop rotors with aluminium carriers...

I hope you find the/ an answer!

My dad bike- no hard braking or long descents with a wee one in the child seat on the back- has super loud brakes in the dry.

What do your rotors look like? The more holes in the rotor the better the rotor can remove water from the braking surface and the pad will get scraped by the trailing edges of the holes. Some rotor designs are better than others in the wet so might be worth experimenting?

I have the Magura storm HC rotors, they work brilliantly in the dry, bit of squeal in the wet until they warm up. Partly due to they being thicker than standard SRAM/Shimano rotors, but also because they have a section of rotor with no holes