Day two in Les arcs and during a long descent my brakes started howling. They were fine on day one but we did some more challenging trails today. Checked the rotors at the bottom of the trail and they look badly discoloured. They were new on and new uberbike race matrix pads. Can I undo the damage somehow and enjoy nice quiet brakes again for the rest of the week?
Yes I'm a serial brake dragger 🤦
I’ve turned my brakes black plenty of times in the alps and they’ve always been fine after cooling down and having some less draggy action for a while.
As above, they'll be fine assuming you have a good lever still. Crack on and try letting it go more.
Also, when you come to a stop don't sit with your fingers on the brakes - sure fire way to warp them especially Ice tech rotors.
Ok thanks, that's encouraging. Yeah levers still solid and still effective but howling like a banshee, which made me try a bit harder to let go! Might not have helped that it was 34⁰ today 🥵
I would second uberbike racematrix not standing up to the alps. Exactly the same thing happened to me and my partner last year, we ended up having to replace rotors too. Changed our for swissstop endurance pads and they were faultless for the rest of the trip until I blew my shock in Pila.
See if you can get hold of some other pads if possible.
I found uber bike race matrix pads not up to the job on big european descents.
How heavy are you?
Interesting, thanks both. If they're still bad tomorrow I'll seek out a bike shop for fresh pads. Unfortunately I only have the same pads as spares.
Not mega heavy at 75kg and at the cautious end of the riding spectrum!
Other dude with us has race matrix on his XT 4pots and his are fine but he's probably not a brake dragger.
I’ll say the same as I always do for these things. Cheap, shyte pads are cheap for a reason.
Case in point last week, my other half did a set of OE pads half way into the trip & when were out. We had an old (but new) set of Ubersh*te pads in a sealy bag in the SWAT box so chucked them in to finish the day.
Howled like a pig, braking performance was significantly worse & they felt like crap.
Swapped out for some OE sintered pads that evening & back to normal. That’s the last set we had kicking around, straight into the bin.
I’ll only run OE, Swisstop or Trickstuff pads for this very reason.
We have just got back from a tour of the Alps. Leogang, Livingo, Lenzerheide and Verbier.
All the bikes are on Racematrix and no problems.
Only had to change one set of pads which had worn down halfway through the second week.
Shimano 203 rotors and Saint brakes
Another vote here for racematrix pads being shite.
On Galfer reds and also in Les Arcs area ATM.
I won't even run them at home in the Tweed Valley as they're just not up to the job.
Just got back from 2 weeks of 5k days in the Alps - Les Arcs and surrounding area.
I used OEM Code sintered pads and went through
two sets (one front and one back) whilst I was out there.
I do run 220mm and 200mm HST rotors.
They do occasionally groan, funnily enough when I’d stopped and let them cool down a bit.
The main thing that has benefitted me has been going from comfort braking to picking braking areas, and then getting off the brakes between them.
Interestingly enough my Code Rs started to howl like a banshee on the downs in the Alps - and they got very hot (blue discs). Trees near by by spontaneously combusting etc
I changed over the uberbike race matrix pads before I went on the back - which were really bad
On the front I had Uberbike E-Bike compound - as I am 105kgs ....
I've cooked a few over there. Only had one that went a bit too warped to be usable. They usually come back. Best to get out of the dragging habit. It's hard when it's steep and goes on and on. On bigger descents I try to go a bit harder on the brakes, slow more than is actually needed, then go fully off and speed up, and repeat. Helps me actually ride a bit faster rather than constantly comfort braking.
Now y'all got me thinking.
I just removed the OEM pads from the RSCs and fitted the lightly used race matrix.
Mmmmm
Saints or 4 pot XTs with finned pads and 203mm rotors helps. I also think resin over metal pads as the metal ones can really heat up
I just removed the OEM pads from the RSCs and fitted the lightly used race matrix.
Why automatically replace the OEMs? Otherwise, the Uberbikes will probably be fine if not dropping 1,000m in a run
put oem pads in your brakes. sintered, unless your rotors aren’t compatible (some shimano rotors are only for use with resin pads).
Why automatically replace the OEMs?
BEcause he generally runs the Race MAtrix. That's the simplest answer.
On bigger descents I try to go a bit harder on the brakes, slow more than is actually needed, then go fully off and speed up, and repeat. Helps me actually ride a bit faster rather than constantly comfort braking.
This is the way.
what size rotors are you running, i'd just upgraded to tech4e4s and went with a 180 rear (stealth ad, silver), pmba graithwaite they absolutely howled, and i felt underbraked, just put on a 200 to match the front, didnt hear the brakes at ardmoors or pmbaAE felt so much better
Thanks all, I'll inspect the pads before riding today de-glaze them if needed. 180 SLX rotors f and r, which is ordinarily fine for me. Deore 4 pots.
180mm isn’t enough for the Alps.
I’d say 200mm front and rear, or even 220 front.
Sorry to hijack but seems pointless making a new thread as it's related to the discussion, I'm using uberbike race matrix and find they over heat a lot, I'm 20st 12lbs (down from 22st 6lbs in may woohoo) which means I'm needing to bleed my brakes quite often.
Does anyone know if you can use heatsink/finned ebike pads in normal calipers? Brakes are SRAM Guide, no "T" or "R" or anything as my bikes a 2016 bike and they didn't have those variations at the time.
On inspection the pads don't look too bad and the rear disc must have cleaned up a bit on the last run. But the front not looking good.
I'll see how they perform today.
Just got back from the alps, half of our group cooked their rear brakes.
sintered were the worse for howling, race matrix much better.
Got used to stopping for to de-glaze the pads on various convenient concrete steps. Made an huge difference to the howling.
I'm a serial brake dragger, my pal who isn't didn't have any issues. The alps probably isn't the easiest place to undo bad habits though...
half of our group cooked their rear brakes.
Learn to use your front brake instead of just dragging the rear all the way.
I’d say bigger rotor – 200mm and avoid dragging.
This.
Got used to stopping for to de-glaze the pads on various convenient concrete steps. Made an huge difference to the howling.
I assume you mean pads out and a scrape on the concrete to rough them up a bit?
I'll add my 2p. I've used Race Matrix for a number of years in the Alps, with no problems at all. Until last year in the Alps. As OP and others have said wailed like a banshee and poor performance. I'm not sure if the manufacturing process was altered, but I will be taking a number of different branded pads this year. I have also up'd my rotor size - mine also went pretty black.
I used galfer blacks in Les arcs last week no issues and plenty of life left in them.
One guy was on Ubers 7 changes, if I remember right, and a blued then blackened disc. By his own admission a brake dragger.
IME of riding in the Alps, the difference from riding at home, especially if doing enduro/big mountain days, is that the amount of vertical you can do in one hit (with a few stops) is massively bigger. Also it's steeper over much longer distances.
I think Dyfi has the biggest bike park vertical drop in the UK at ~ 400m. In the Alps if you're doing guided riding a 2k drop is possible in one hit without having to get back on the uplift.
This means that brakes that are completely adequate in the UK are tested (like every other component) much more in the Alps, especially when you add in unfamiliarity with the terrain.
When I've ridden there with brakes that are too small, there are two problems. Firstly they overheat and tend to stop working. Secondly is that the braking effort needed at the lever is fatiguing and contributes to arm pump.
Both of these problems mean that when I've had brakes that are too small, they've tired me out and I've lost confidence in them. When I'm tired and lacking confidence I tend to ride the brakes more, and so on in a vicious cycle.
The more that I ride in the alps, the more that I think that for mere mortals like me (not the guides or pros) bike set up is absolutely paramount. Big brakes, correct tyre set up, burly forks and piggy back shocks are all vital IMO.
Swissstop are really good. Racematrix im less so sure of. I like their swappable fin backs for my codes though. Seem to work reasonably well.
I’ve generally found my codes to be poor in true alpine conditions though. They have great initial power, but when heat soaked they fade badly. I’m running 220/200 on a 25kg emtb and 100kg of gorilla at the helm, so they have a lot to deal with, granted. But they’re not V4s.
I did a week in Les Arcs (and La Thuile, etc, with white room) a couple of weeks ago and one set of race matrix saw me through despite my being what I'd consider a terrified brake-dragger for a lot of the trip with lots of spares in the pack. 200mm/180mm avid code brakes on a Bronson v3, lightweight rider, beautiful weather for the most part and then wet for the last day and a half. There was a point on one afternoon where the brakes performance dipped for a bit so the levers were pulling back further to get any action, presumably overheating. Stamina for holding the damn things so long was more my issue, that and the terror. A great time all in all.
200mm rotors (at least, unless you're teeny) and choice of pads, Organic for dry and sintered for wet days, make sure your sintered are pre-bedded in. Make sure your rotors have plenty of life in them - get the callipers out and replace them if they're under 1.5mm for SRAM and Shimano, and 1.8mm for Magura.
Just back from 4 days in Morzine / Les Gets. Bit of a noise at the end of a couple of particularly long descents but otherwise worked fine. Used Race Matrix for years, never had an issue - yet..
Sorry to hijack but seems pointless making a new thread as it’s related to the discussion, I’m using uberbike race matrix and find they over heat a lot, I’m 20st 12lbs (down from 22st 6lbs in may woohoo) which means I’m needing to bleed my brakes quite often.
Does anyone know if you can use heatsink/finned ebike pads in normal calipers? Brakes are SRAM Guide, no “T” or “R” or anything as my bikes a 2016 bike and they didn’t have those variations at the time.
As nobody has answered you, I found Guides struggled with my 12st weight on steeper or longer trails.
Could you stretch to some 4-pot brakes? Shimano Deore are cheap & good.
And you can definitely fit finned pads in Shimano 4-pots if still needed.
Could you stretch to some 4-pot brakes?
I thought Guides were/are 4 pot? They're not the best brakes that ever there was though, that's for sure. I don't think I'd want to rely on them in the Alps
I fitted some of the 2.3mm thick rotors and non-finned pads in Shimano saints. The (comparatively) large mass of steel in the rotor and unimpeded air flow through the caliper made more sense to me than tiny fins trying to conduct heat away. I still dragged the crap out of them and cooked them anyway because I'm a massive scaredy cat.
Agree with the above, Guides can get overwhelmed with alpine riding. Bang for buck I'd be looking at Codes, Shimano are just too inconsistent.
I've just had the pleasure of using my Hope Tech4 E4s in the alps, Galfer black pads, 200mm SRAM rotors. Good consistent braking, plenty of power, no hand fatigue, no noise, no overheating.
Another race matrix non-fan here. I really liked them in the UK, took them out to the alps and they were just awful, dangerously inconsistent. Stopped at the first opportunity, replaced both with boggo superstar kevlars which worked perfectly. FWIW I've never had a similiar issue with any other pad ever, I still use the same brakes and I've had them smoking and the rotors completely discoloured a few times but without loss of performance (except for that time I branded a perfect brake disc shape into my leg)
The amount of variation in reviews is interesting though, it makes me wonder if they have issues with specific fitments? (mine are Formula The Ones frinstance). Obviously brakes vary a lot too. But it felt like they have a window of operation where they're good, and outside that, they're instantly awful. That can happen with car and motorbike pads too of course, I love my bog standard EBC Ultimax on the road but take them to the track and you will have Regrets, I think for a lot of people an alps trip is a lot like a trackday is for a "fast road car".
Your rotors will probably be fine as long as they're not warped. FWIW I don't think there's any point in trying to fix a brake issue with pads or discs (other than replacing bad parts of course or going up a size), all this fins on pads or aluminium rotors madness- this is a solved problem, all my bikes have the same Formulas from 2010 and they do not need massive discs, fins, anything like that, they're just really good brakes with normal parts and they work. Other really good brakes are available but bizarrely you can still spend a lot of money on absolute shit brakes that just aren't really fit for purpose. Maybe e-bikes are an exception but even then probably not.
Back to performing well again today. I was making a conscious effort not to drag them and zero honking and carrying more speed were my rewards. Did one black which was techy and slow (for me) where I was heavy on the brakes but they were great. Rotors have returned to silver. Thanks all for the input.
I think for a lot of people an alps trip is a lot like a trackday is for a “fast road car”.
Absolutely. I used to think that piggy back shocks were overkill for most "trail" riding, however every time I rode black 8 (fast, slightly techy downhill with ~ 800m vertical in Les Arcs) by the bottom I could feel the heat radiating off the piggy back from my Float X.
@kramer we've been considering la 8. Is it any harder than el chablette? Rode that today and survived.
I think it's much easier that Elle Chablette. Great fun, especially once you know the lines, a few tricky sections.
Also worth trying Farmer Jackson's. Left above the hut at the first right hander of Woodstock, then keep to the left at the first fork. Reasonably steep rooty tech goodness. Loads of grip when it's dry, alternates between loads of grip and absolutely lethal when it's wet.
Thanks Kramer 👍
Or go further out and do axe wound.
Or go further out and do axe wound.
I think that they're different names for the same trail?
Yes I’m a serial brake dragger 🤦
First time road riding in the Alps we made the mistake of hiring a chalet in Alp d'Huez village (at the top of the climb).
Anyway, day one and descend Alp d'Huez, got to the bottom and one of our group who was a big lad and not a confident descender, had dragged his rim brakes the whole way down. At the junction at the bottom there was a 'pop' and an inner tube popped out of one of his tyres, which had delaminated ie the material just unwrapped from the bead and the tyre fabric just separated from the rim leaving a hot sticky mess of bits of tyre.
Black 8 isn't hard, but it's hectically fast at times and actually hitting the features is a bit tricksy especially on the first run- I basically couldn't go as fast as I wanted to, while also being able to make decisions about what to ride fast enough, so I rode round a bunch of things that I should have ridden, or just plain didn't see em. Great fun though. Can you still duck under the pipeline and do the stuff over there? (well, the stuff that isn't mental, I saw a random ladder drop that I wouldn't ride in a million years...)
Can you still duck under the pipeline and do the stuff over there?
Yes. To varying degrees of not giving a hoot about your own self preservation.
Isn't that where White 8 is? Off out to Les Arcs a week on Friday, done it once before but that was 6-7 years ago..
Yes, and Pipe Dream, and Brown Pow (or the nadgery chute of death as it is known in my circle).
Cool - would you have any gpx or strava routes for them?
200mm rotors (at least, unless you’re teeny)
Just back from a week in Morzine. 180 rotors both ends were perfectly fine for me, and I'm 100kg (plus gear). Might not be the raddest of the alps, but still quite a bit of vertical, and momentum to turn in to heat before Newton made me go light speed.
Shimano are just too inconsistent
Mine (M8000) were again bang on consistent all week, with the only exception being the ride to the first lift after the bike had been stored vertical overnight.
Stock Shimano resin pads too. That set has done a week in Torridon and Aviemore, and another week in Glentress/Inners, at least. Did need to change them on the 5th morning.
Did consider 3rd party pads, but last time I used them I got stung. Superstar ones were coming off in chunks. And in our group last week, most of the rest were on EBC / Uberbike and somethign else, and were the ones with blued rotors, even though it's me that's more at the brake dragging end of the spectrum.
Hoarded a decent stash of Shimano resin pads, so I think I'm sorted for a while yet.
edit: oof! at that rotor though
I’m afraid not. Follow black 8 down until it flattens out and you’ll see a route off to the right. Duck under the pipes. Directly left is White 8, a little further on but still on the left is Brown Pow, straight on is Pipe Dream (the “easy” route), I think.
Just don’t run your pads to the metal too often please
Ridden lots in the alps & pyrenees, usually spend a couple of months every summer out there, never got on with uber brake pads, always started howling after a while, one of the spanish guys we were riding with at the time recommended Galfa pads - game changer
In Verbier one time we got caught in a storm so we just rode/slid straight down something standard steep for Verbier (very steep) cant remember the name, by the big cliff, I went through my pads, the backing and part of the pistons.
180 rotors both ends were perfectly fine for me
Sure, but there's literally no downside to putting 200mm rotors on your bike, while 180mm can be fine, 200mm will be better in the Alps. They'll stay cooler longer, make your pads last better and be more efficient at stopping for more control and less effort.
180mm tends to be fine for the bike park stuff if you've got decent braking technique.
From experience it's on the 2k sustained 25% average vertical descents where they start to cause problems.
The amount of variation in reviews is interesting though, it makes me wonder if they have issues with specific fitments?
I was wondering this as well. I've no investment in getting on well with Racematrix particularly beyond familiarity and having a few spare pairs on hand, if they were giving me grief I'd get shot of them immediately. But they were fine!
It does also make me wonder if I tried something else I'd suddenly be finding my brakes so much better that the scales would fall from my eyes, the strava times plummet, etc etc. Now I'm back in Bikepark Peaslake and so on, they'll do the job anyway though.
Another vote here for racematrix pads being shite.
On Galfer reds and also in Les Arcs area ATM.
I won’t even run them at home in the Tweed Valley as they’re just not up to the job.
I’ve just finished 6 days in Verbier and am now in the Racematrix are rubbish camp.
I’d never had a problem before but first 3 days on Genuine SRAM pads in my Codes and all was well. The rears needed replacing so put in some new RM pads and half way through the day they were howling and I had a very black rotor, they didn’t clean up or improve at all. I persevered for the next day but then changed them to some others (unknown brand) and they were instantly better, noise mostly gone and the rotor is no longer completely black.
I think I’ll just stick to SRAM pads from now on.
For reference Magura discs are 2.0mm thick whereas everything is 1.8mm, not sure if it makes a difference but I've never had issues in the Alps with various Magura's including the legendary Gustav's!
Said it before the race matrix pads used to be brilliant
The compound had an almost green tinge to it and they were brilliant
They the changed supplier and there utter garbage just glacé over
You can get them back a bit by removing them and scrubbing them together with some water but it doesn't take long for them to glaze again
SRAM HS2 are also 2mm thick. It does make a difference in the Alps.
TRP also make a 2.3mm rotor, Hope ebike rotors are thicker too. There are also fancy German rotors similar.
They are much more resistant to warping in my experience.
Anyone got comments on vented rotors?
They’re spendy and probably overkill for trail/enduro riding.
Heads up for anyone wanting to go under the pipes off White8.. 1. Loads of forestry work being done so the trails are getting destroyed with tracked forestry vehicles, 2. It’s actually off limits this year - was chatting to the owner of Gravity Lab and he said the police are actively finding anyone they catch using them.
Also, Gravity Lab are encouraging people to complain about the conditions of the official trails - they want as many complaints the tourist office as possible to help force more maintenance.
@philstone, are they fining for riding all unofficial trails or just that one? Might be heading back at the end of next month, or maybe not if they're cracking down on unofficial trails
I've never been one for worrying too much about which brand or compound pads I have, although I've been on various organic/resin/similar ones for years. Then I had day 1 in the alps on some Absima sintered things that had found their way onto my Guides. My god were they lacking in power. The hand pain was off the scale and I had to drag (brake hard) for long sections just because I lacked the power to brake as I normally would (not normally a dragger). New Disco green ones on the next day and all was well with the world. I was skeptical the issue could be just pads but I've been OK on these brakes before, and when I changed them I couldn't believe the difference.
For me, <200mm in the alps would seem an odd choice. If/when the rotors wear out on my big bike I might even go for 220s, and I'm only fairly little (<80kg).
Did Black 8 here too. Not a massively techy trail (less so than Chablette I think and the others near that) but tiring to do in a oner in a hurry to catch the tour go through Bourg. I only did it once so little jumping but it's quite a jumpy trail for what it is, I'd say. Would be fun to session it a few times. Seemed very heavily ridden (deep dust) but I liked it anyway.
We finally did black 8 on the last day and I inevitably cooked my brakes again 😆
Never had an issue with Race Matrix and we ride at least 2 months a year in big mountains. About to head off on this year's trip tomorrow, so fingers crossed they still work as normal.
I did have to upgrade to SRAM HS2 rotors last year to stop the squeeling though, the stock rotors that came with my new Codes weren't up to the job. No issues with 4 pot Shimano though, with Ice Tech rotors.
I’ll have 4 sets of RaceMatrix Code pads going up for sale soon. Unfortunately I’ve cut the cardboard down so can’t send them back.