[Closed] Comedy customer service exchange with Evans (Arkose content)

Aye, proper wellington boot top, that.

That can only be a warranty job.

The only useful thing that Andy at Evans did for you was to put this bit in writing.

...and you are right the 27.2mm seat post is too small

The rest of the email is nonsense but I'm sure you'll get it sorted in the end. There's clearly a fault and it shouldn't be down to the customer to find a solution.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts. Somewhat annoyingly I'm going to have to unbolt all the bits I've already installed when they get round to sending me a new frame 👿

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And the slit is facing backwards, I'd have not bought it for that reason alone

Deffo a new frame though

At least your floor is nice and clean.

[i]Deffo a new frame though [/i]

Assuming they have any of last years model left?

And the slit is facing backwards, I'd have not bought it for that reason alone

Agreed, but it does tick a lot of other boxes (post mount discs, 135mm rear spacing, rack and guard mounts that are actually useable, normal threaded BB). Internal cable routing would be nice too.

At least your floor is nice and clean.

I took the photos inside to avoid comments about the patio 😉

Assuming they have any of last years model left?

I'm going to need some sort of frame off them, because I bought that tapered carbon fork to fit especially and I've already cut the steerer...

Had exactly the same issue with a Hoy bike from Evans.

Does "Andy" know you bought it from Evans? 😯

Inexplicably stupid email if he does....

I've tried two 27.2mm Thomsons

You selling the dodgy frame on? Again, just saying...

I'm going to need some sort of frame off them,

a +0.1 tol on a reamed hole, **** me I need a job machining bike frames! I'm lucky if i get 0.02mm

Edit... And don't reamers only ever cut smaller as they get old

a +0.35 tol on a reamed hole, **** me I need a job machining bike frames! I'm lucky if i get 0.02mm

It's a 27.3 hole to allow a sliding fit on a 27.2 post, the tolerance is 0.05mm.

[edit] you edited.

I'm shocked at Andy's response. Suggesting a new seatpost, when clearly a coke can shim would do the job.

Thanks Jameso, that's good to hear.

I don't have a vernier caliper, but (and I see we're thinking along the same lines aracer) I did try making a shim out of a coke can. It took 1.5 wraps to get the post to fit reasonably snugly. Apparently Coke cans are ~0.097mm thick, which would suggest the seattube is closer to 27.45mm.

.1 clear would be described with different words around here to sliding, but I fear the swear filter would pick them up.

And don't reamers only ever cut smaller as they get old

Jameso, you could just say its a new 'standard'. The bike world needs more standards 😉

Didn't someone make a 27.3 seatpost for frames which were a bit over-enthusiastically reamed?

Not if it's 27.45 though.

On One?

Jameso: while we have your attention... is the Arkrose fork available aftermarket and in straight steerer variety?

Taper only, sold as part of the 2014 framesets. We may have some 2013-14 forks in the warranty spares stock, all tapered though.

Pah! 😥

[i]On One?[/i]

It was an early batch of Ragley frames, I think?

I do like the look of that frame and fork,

hope it gets sorted.

Jameso, you could just say its a new 'standard'.

I do like the look of that frame and fork,

hope it gets sorted.

Ta, it does look good doesn't it? Although if Evans want to replace it with one of the early-90s Kona-esque splatter paint frames they're doing for next year, I won't complain 🙂

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I've just head back from Andy. Here is the email I sent in response to his original message:

Andy,

Thanks for your response. However, I have several problems with it:

1. I don't want a "Vavert" seatpost, and with the exception of Thomson I'm not sure any other brands make seatposts in 27.4mm or 28.0mm sizes (and you don't even stock Thomson in those sizes);

2. How can I be sure a 27.4mm or 28.0mm seatpost will fit? What if it's 27.3mm, or 27.5mm? I'm not willing to buy three or four different posts to find one that *might* fit.

3, MOST IMPORTANTLY, as I stated in my original email, the seattube is clearly badly reamed. This frame isn't supposed to take a 27.4mm or 28.0mm seatpost, it's supposed to take a 27.2mm one. And that doesn't fit. The frame is therefore clearly defective.

I trust you will reply with a more reasonable solution promptly.

Kind regards,

Adam

And here is the reply I've just received from Andy:

Hi

Thank you for your email

As previously mentioned, I suggest you look at a larger diameter seat post available from the Vavert range.

If you have any other questions please do not hesitate to contact us.

Kind Regards

Andy
Evans Cycles
www.evanscycles.com

I'm genuinely lost for words. How do I respond to that?

Phone and ask to speak to the Customer Service Manager, if not available then the Sales Director. Clearly a waste of time continuing with an e-mail exchange.

I'd link him to this thread. If you just call him a cretin, that's just one narky customer. When he appreciates that a significant number of folk with some knowledge (including someone from Pinnacle!) think his knowledge is a bit dubious he might have a rethink.

Failing that, you need to go above his head to someone with at least a tiny bit of engineering competence.

I'm afraid Andy is rather confirming my prejudices that Evans can't be relied upon to sort arses from elbows with regards to bikes. Sort of like a posh Halfords.

I'm genuinely lost for words. How do I respond to that?

Dear, Andy.

Can I speak to your manager, please. As you appear to not fully comprehend the issue I am raising.

Kind Regards,

Finbar.

Trading standards would be my next email. Not sold as per description.

I'd link him to this thread. If you just call him a cretin, that's just one narky customer. When he appreciates that that a significant number of folk with some knowledge (including someone from Pinnacle!) think his knowledge is a bit dubious he might have a rethink.

Think I'll save that for the exchange with his manager! I've gone with the following:

Andy,

I'm afraid your reply is completely unacceptable. You've failed to address any of the points I made in my previous email.

I am going to need a proper response or for you to pass this upwards immediately.

Thank you,

Adam

I'd link him to this thread. If you just call him a cretin, that's just one narky customer. When he appreciates that that a significant number of folk with some knowledge (including someone from Pinnacle!) think his knowledge is a bit dubious he might have a rethink.

Failing that, you need to go above his head to someone with at least a tiny bit of engineering competence.

The worrying thing is, what if OP was just some dude/dudette who didn't have a STW to double check with?

Talk about a fob off.

Trading standards would be my next email. Not sold as per description.

Hopefully it won't come to that. I still need a frame at the end of the day, and I would like a Pinnacle one.

Send him a link to this thread - including highlighting the bit where James from Pinnacle has said it's clearly defective and they should swap it no probs.

Had exactly the same boneheaded selection of responses from a CRC rep.
1 email to the top chap and it was sorted in no time at all. Evans now have a customer services issue and a training issue and somebody in charge needs to know.

You need to escalate your complaint, speak firmly but politely.

or put it on twitter

Kind of moving beyond 'Comedy customer service' now......unbelievable.

Threads can move faster than a few calls can be made but we'll sort it OP, no probs.

Hurrah! Thanks very much - presumably - to Jameso for having a word 🙂

Hi Adam

Thank you for your email

Following a conversation with one of the Pinnacle guys in Head office, He has suggested that you send the bike into us for a warranty claim. We will then send you a new frame.

Quickest way to do this, is by taking into a store otherwise let us know if you have a bike box or not and we arrange a collection.

They're processing it as discussed yesterday, from what I can see from the emails there wasn't any mention of not being a warranty but I can see where it got confused. I'm not sure if we have any 2013-14 frames left here now so it may be a case of getting a new Arkose 4 frame when they land in a few weeks.

presumably - to Jameso for having a word

Actually all I did was raise this thread .. they were processing as a warranty yesterday and had got the pictures, if the suggestion of a larger post was taken as a 'no it's not warranty' then that wasn't intended.

Sounds more like Andy from Evans tried to fob you off. He clearly doesn't know what he's doing. Nothing was done about it until they got a call/email from pinnacle!

Added to the list, Never buying from Evans!

Okay, brill, thanks a lot Jameso. This does mean commuting on my lovely carbon bike for a bit longer. My poor Zondas... However if that means I happen to get the new frame with internal gear cable routing it's all good.

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Clearly a fob off. Why on earth would Andy keep pointing OP to those crappy seatposts

P.s. The confusion (and hence, me posting this thread) arose as follows. I didn't include this in my OP as it would have been a very, very long post...

Here is the first email I sent to Evans yesterday:

Hi,

A couple of months ago I ordered a Pinnacle Arkose frame from you (see order below), which I've just got round to starting to build up. Much to my dismay, the seattube appears to be badly reamed - I've tried two 27.2mm Thomsons and a USE Sumo post, and all of them have a considerable gap between the post and the frame tube - more than a coke can shim can take up.

I'd really like to keep the frame, as I've ordered various parts to fit it, installed the headset and bottom bracket, and even cut the steerer on a set of carbon forks to fit. However, I can't see a way around this seat post problem. Please can you offer a solution?

Thanks a lot,

Adam

I got this response from Sam:

Hi Adam,

Thank you for your email

I am sorry to say if there is a defect within the seat-tube of the frame this is a problem that is almost impossible to fix.

There are various mays that this could be bodged to work but with a new frame nobody wants to have to bodge it to make things work.

As such I feel on this occasion the only option would be for us to get the frame back with a view to replacing this under warranty.

Can you confirm if you have a store nearby you could drop the frame into or if you would need that collected please?
If you have any other questions please do not hesitate to contact us.

Kind Regards

Sam Bristow

Happy days! Aren't Evans brilliant? I emailed Sam my address, and got the following response from Jack:

Hi Adam

Thank you for your email

I have spoken with our warranty department and before we can look into exchanging the frame for you we will need some clearly detailed photos of the issues you are having with the frame. This will help us to get the ball rolling with the warranty procedures.

Could you also include a phot of the entire frame as well as the serial number on the bb shell.

Also could you please confirm whether you have been using a seat post clamp as there will be play until the seat post clamp is tightened.

Once we have received these photos we will let you know of the next stages regarding the warranty.
If you have any other questions please do not hesitate to contact us.

Kind Regards

Jack

Okay, that makes sense. So I sent some photos and a video. Then, to square the circle with this thread, this morning I got the email from Andy:

Hi

Thank you for your email

I’ve looked at your video, and you are right the 27.2mm seat post is too small, have you thought about trying a 27.4 or a 28mm.

Here is a link to a seat post with these measurements. http://www.evanscycles.com/products/vavert/single-bolt-400mm-seatpost-ec039090

If you have any other questions please do not hesitate to contact us.

Kind Regards

Andy
Evans Cycles

I think the lesson here is that Evans need to assign specific people to specific cases.

Ahaaaa - not such a CS fail after all then

Moral: Don't cut the steerer till EVERYTHING else is sorted!

Clearly a fob off.

.. posted while others were posting .. yes, specific people to one case/enquiry would be good, agreed, it could slow things up but would offer better continuity.

You should also probably buy jameso a pint, he deserves a pint for all the work he has done on here and for the fact that a good percentage of us really want to buy the bikes he is making!

Seems the OP should really have put all the info in his first post.

Does make things look much worse than they were.

seems to me the last email was a guy trying to help you achieve your stated aim:

I'd really like to keep the frame

I nearly posted that the advice to try a different size seat post might have been thinking of an option as to how you could keep that particular frame

Any way all's well that ends well

I think it was a bit unfair of the OP not to disclose all the emails at the beginning, particularly given the thread title. Looks like a case of misunderstanding really.

I feel used

So Jack and Sam @ Evans are cool.
Andy isn't so much.
James @ Pinnacle is cool.
OP hid the truth from us temporarily so we'd all jump on the "we all hate Evans bandwagon". OP is definitely not cool but has a new frame on its way.

As per winston, I feel used and dirty. I'm going to cry in the shower with my clothes on.

I support OP on this one. He did what Evans CS requested. Evans should have assessed the frame properly. If concluding that it was a warranty replacement they should have contacted Pinnacle to see if they could get a replacement frame.

If no stock was avail, then suggesting a 27.4 seatpost should have been last resort suggestion if the OP insisted he still wanted it.

"I'd really like to keep the frame" sort of explains why Evans were suggesting solutions other than a replacement.

Why did I sell my Arkose, sigh...

Seems the OP should really have put all the info in his first post.

Does make things look much worse than they were.

I think it was a bit unfair of the OP not to disclose all the emails at the beginning, particularly given the thread title. Looks like a case of misunderstanding really.

I'm going to disagree here. I didn't have multiple conversations going on with Jack, Sam and Andy - it was one email chain. And I interpreted the situation as Evans changing their stance from:

1. (yesterday) the frame is faulty, an exchange will be no problem; to
2. (today) the frame is fine, you don't understand how seatpost sizing works and you should try buying a load of different size posts to find one that might fit instead.

Which I thought was pretty comically bad customer service, hence the thread. There was no intention on my part to portray the situation as being worse than it actually is.

Anyway, all is clear with Evans now. Fingers crossed I'll get a frame that is fit for purpose sooner rather than later.

& after all that I'd still never use Evans.

Im going to take my previous statement back after the OP did not tell all.

All Adam tried to do was help, as you wanted to keep the frame. He did what he thought was right and offered you an outcome/solution. thus keeping your frame.

Who cuts the steerer before even riding the bike.....

You already had the warranty going though.

I think next time you should be so quick to pick up the pitch fork.

Booo! OP, Booo!

...and no I'm not saying Boo-urns!

You already had the warranty going though.

No, I didn't. Once I'd sent the photos and video confirming the problem the only responses I got were the ones from Andy suggesting I buy random size seat posts to find one that fits.

And this is still part of the exchange is still quite funny in my opinion:

Hi
Thank you for your email

I’ve looked at your video, and you are right the 27.2mm seat post is too small, have you thought about trying a 27.4 or a 28mm.

Here is a link to a seat post with these measurements. http://www.evanscycles.com/products/vavert/single-bolt-400mm-seatpost-ec039090

If you have any other questions please do not hesitate to contact us.

Kind Regards

Andy
Evans Cycles

Andy,
Thanks for your response. However, I have several problems with it:

1. I don't want a "Vavert" seatpost, and with the exception of Thomson I'm not sure any other brands make seatposts in 27.4mm or 28.0mm sizes (and you don't even stock Thomson in those sizes);

2. How can I be sure a 27.4mm or 28.0mm seatpost will fit? What if it's 27.3mm, or 27.5mm? I'm not willing to buy three or four different posts to find one that *might* fit.

3, MOST IMPORTANTLY, as I stated in my original email, the seattube is clearly badly reamed. This frame isn't supposed to take a 27.4mm or 28.0mm seatpost, it's supposed to take a 27.2mm one. And that doesn't fit. The frame is therefore clearly defective.

I trust you will reply with a more reasonable solution promptly.

Kind regards,

Adam

Hi
Thank you for your email

As previously mentioned, I suggest you look at a larger diameter seat post available from the Vavert range.

If you have any other questions please do not hesitate to contact us.

Kind Regards

Andy
Evans Cycles
http://www.evanscycles.com

However, if this is genuinely a sensible customer service response, and I'm just being unreasonable, then I apologise to everyone and you have carte blanche to get the pitchforks out.

the only responses I got were the ones from Andy suggesting I buy random size seat posts to find one that fits.

Well given that you'd asked for a solution as you'd rather keep the frame then that's not a completely ridiculous reply. I think you have unfairly maligned Evans.

Well given that you'd asked for a solution as you'd rather keep the frame then that's not a completely ridiculous reply. I think you have unfairly maligned Evans.

But that suggestion came after they'd initially acknowledged there was a fault with the frame and would replace it.

I'm not a bike expert - I don't, for example, work for a national chain of bike shops - but if such an expert tells me a frame I've bought is faulty and they will replace it with one that isn't, then when I try and arrange that another expert suggests that instead I should spend my own money attempting to solve the problem with a solution that might not work, well... that's not an appealing proposition in my book.

Out of interest OP - did Evans suggest you to disclose the other emails to us?

Out of interest OP - did Evans suggest you to disclose the other emails to us?

No, I just thought on balance I should tell the whole story. If it turns out that that makes me look like an unreasonable tit, then fair enough and apologies all round 😳

In my first post I did say that the email I quoted from Evans was the latest part of our exchange.

Sits on fence with pitchfork deciding who to attack

its more than likely the OP as you were deceptive over the e-mail chain and they seem to be offering solutions so you can keep the frame as their initial response - never retracted - was to offer warranty.

If you say I dont want to try seatposts as I want a new frame i expect them ot say

OK no problems

Fair enough. I think it was the correct thing to do (disclosing the earlier emails).

Sits on fence with pitchfork deciding who to attack

its more than likely the OP as you were deceptive over the e-mail chain and they seem to be offering solutions so you can keep the frame as their initial response - never retracted - was to offer warranty.

If you say I dont want to try seatposts as I want a new frame i expect them ot say

OK no problems

Which is basically exactly what they've done in the end 😀 . Really going to disagree that I was "deceptive" though.

well you withheld the bit where you said you wanted to keep it and the bit where their initial reply was to accept your warranty claim
I am not sure how you can think neither of these were pertinent or withholding it was not misleading

Deceptive is too strong a word though , no offence meant and I retract that bit.

Just a bit of a misunderstanding on both sides IMHO, and I don't think the OP deliberately attempted to portray it as something it wasn't by not posting all the e-mails, just that he didn't realise how it made it look different.

Though everybody seems to be ignoring the most significant thing in this thread - that it's possible to specify the thickness of a coke can to the nearest thousandth of a mm.

Americans dont use metric

me
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Why is Daniel Craig holding you?