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Having heard a passing mention on Peak Torque's youtube channel last week, I thought I'd try it out on the MTB and Gravel bike.
Will update after a few rides, but it was very easy and fairly mess-free to clean the chains and get them coated in the emulsion wax.
I have zero experience of hot waxing, but will report my findings after a few rides.
https://hagenautomation.com/products/dipwax-system
Looks like smoove / scotoiler UBS, but supplied in larger quantities?
I think I've got two big spray bottles of UBS still (because like smoove I found it to be useless) so could give dunking it in a pot a go to compare against putoline.
Hmm. Could be interesting but how long does it take to 'dry'? The nice thing about hot wax is that it cools quickly and is ready to go.
With Smoove, the Zero Friction Cycling people found that pre-heating both the chain and lube gave better results. Be interesting to hear how you get on, but I think the 'hassle' of hot immersion waxing tends to be massively overstated. The only time-consuming bit is cleaning the chain initially, but beyond that it's really quick and easy.
Could be interesting but how long does it take to ‘dry’? The nice thing about hot wax is that it cools quickly and is ready to go.
I suppose the advantage might be in not needing a fryer/electricity, just two jamjars.
Agree on the 'faff' of hot-wax being massively overstated though. It's either done while you wash the rest of the bike, or in-between other jobs. I usually do it during the TV add breaks.
Switch fryer on low.
Chain off and into solvent jar, swish.
Faff with something else for 5 minutes, swish again.
Faff with something else for 5 minutes, swish again.
Chuck the chain in the basket, turn up the temp to ~150.
Make a cup of tea, swish the basket.
Wash the bike, swish the basket.
Put bike away, swish the basket, lift out the wax, switch it off and leave it to cool and refit next time.
You get two zip-lock bags of cleaner and 'wax'. Just curl the chain up in the cleaner, shake and leave it for 20min. When dry (1-2hrs left in the sun) dip it in the wax for 5-10s minutes with a shake or two. Then hung up on a nail outside for an hour to dry and you're done. Fitted to the bike with clean hands!
Impressed with the prep, now to see how it rides and lasts...
Interested although also not phased by 'faff' of hot waxing.
Just curious as to what the catch might be, I'm guessing a wax which is water soluble at ambient temperatures is never going to last as long as a wax which is solid at ambient temps?
Is this effectively a big bag of Squirt? I could imagine immersing in Squirt rather than dripping it on to the surface of the chain would be a better way of applying it.
pre-heating both the chain and lube gave better results
I'm still using up two bottles of Fenwick's Stealth on the gravel bike, which to be fair seems to work pretty well. You need to pre-heat the bottle to make the lube runny, but you can see where it solidifies on the cold chain, leaves it a bit messy. I'd wondered what the easiest way to preheat the chain would be, just put it in a plastic bag and place in a pan of just off the boil water?
My only questions are, how many miles between applications? And then how many waxings does a 250ml pouch cover you for?
At £25 it's got to cover a fair few applications to make it worthwhile and I'm always going to see Putoline as a bit of a baseline in terms of required frequency when it's measured in hundreds of miles (depending on your local conditions).
£24 get the cleaner, wax and the top up wax 'pen'. It's 12.99 for a just a pouch of the wax.
I've dipped 2 chains so far and i think i could be at least 10 coatings - maybe more. Will give a it a go on my e-commuter and my fixie too 🙂
Will update the thread i've put some miles on it.
I find the overall faff of hot-waxing much less. Whilst you do have to wait for it to cook up, it's time but zero effort, and it removes all the chain cleaning and de-greasing I used to have to do with wet lube, and even then the results were pretty terrible with the wet lube being washed off in minutes in the mud. My wet lube wasn't lasting one ride it was barely lasting one descent.
This cold wax, is it actually water soluble? Surely that's a major design flaw in the wet?
You need to pre-heat the bottle to make the lube runny
That sounds like a cracking idea.
You could very easily melt it to flow around the chain with a hot air gun. Although getting the angle right to avoid heating your tyres can be tricky. I wonder if one could rustle up an applicator for this that you either heat up yourself or contains some kind of electrical heating element.
EDIT put your wax in one of these, a batik wax dribbling tool heat it up, apply to chain then heat gun it to flow around the chain. Would be a great maintenance application.
EDIT2 It's called a Tjanting tool and you can get electrically heated ones.....
"With Smoove, the Zero Friction Cycling people found that pre-heating both the chain and lube gave better results."
yeah - and without that heating & immersing in Smoove the penetration was poor.
Silca have a "super secret" drip wax product - needs to set overnight but it's highly rated.
ideally you'd need to do the solvent cleans described below before application
The Zero Friction Cycling hot wax method in a nutshell:
Hot wax?
1:
clean the new chain to get rid of all manufacturer's grease (vital)
agitate in 2-3 baths white spirit (5 baths are needed for sram chains) change the liquid, wiping the pot and agitate again until the liquid is still totally clear, i.e. no more residue
(save that last bath to use first next time)
dry with hot air (important)
2:
agitate in 2 baths of meths to get rid of all white spirit residues as they would stop the adhesion of the melted wax.
that’s the last you'll see of those solvents, do dispose of them considerately.
alternatively use the UFO clean stuff from CeramicSpeed, more expensive but far less is needed.
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/product/ceramic-speed-ufo-clean/
dry with hot air, we don't want water inside the chain
3:
now, wax in the slow cooker (don't overheat the wax, 80 C is good) I use Silca Super Secret wax
leave it in 5 mins - agitate a bit, a "swoosher" is useful
break the links over a dowel rod to loosen up the chain,
don't wax the quicklink - makes it hard to fit
(you can reuse them until they stop "clicking" when fitted)
maintenance -
after ANY wet ride (which inevitably carries contamination into the links) remove and wash the chain in 3 lots of boing water, (DO NOT shake it in a closed container, boiling water explodes)
dry off with hot air
into the wax pot 5 mins agitate well, hang to drip dry
the chain is now free of contamination and "like new" as near as.
this is a good time to measure for wear.
NO NEED for solvents after the initial clean.
Its very easy once you get it and increases drivetrain life massively.
Why is this a good method, well any non-melt in lube will become grinding paste pretty fast, 'self cleaning' properties are marketing B.S. So you'd need 5 solvent baths to clean a chain every time.
NO NEED for solvents after the initial clean.
That's good to know, after using 5+ pots of white spirit and two of meths 😬
Cycling is supposed to be a green hobby 🤣
molgrips
"This cold wax, is it actually water soluble? Surely that’s a major design flaw in the wet?"
I believe drip wax like Silca Super secret is a "wax emulsion" it sets, it's not water soluble after setting.
The wax I'm currently using recommends heating to 110 then cooling to 80 before removing the chain. The 110C boils off any moisture left on the chain after cleaning with boiling water - which saves having to dry the chain. The wax does go a bit mad when it gets to 100C with the water boiling underneath it....
after ANY wet ride (which inevitably carries contamination into the links) remove and wash the chain in 3 lots of boing water, (DO NOT shake it in a closed container, boiling water explodes)
dry off with hot air
into the wax pot 5 mins agitate well, hang to drip dry
So after say, 85% of all rides in the UK this procedure has to be followed?
Seems like quite alot of faff to me.
footflaps
Full Member
The wax I’m currently using recommends heating to 110 then cooling to 80 before removing the chain.
I can see that would help get rid of water. My hot air gun does that.
Interesting, though.
Both MoltenSpeedWax and Silca say that overheating damages it.
Silca support:-
“ The wax will melt at around 160F. (71C) You don't want to leave it at temperatures over 200F (93C)for very long or it will risk damaging the wax.”
after ANY wet ride (which inevitably carries contamination into the links)
Not really.
That's a ridiculous faff. Use the Molgrips method instead which is put chain in fryer for a bit then refit. When it gets noisy, repeat. It works fine no need for all that bollocks.
Cycling is supposed to be a green hobby
It's a green method of transport that's not the same thing.
*hands the putoline evangelist banner to molgrips" 🙂
I'm now talking about hot waxing since whilst I am convinced that's the best approach I've no idea if other hot waxes are better 🙂
Molgrips
Read up on lube comparisons on the marvellous Zerofrictioncycling site if you like.
MSW and Silca Super Secret wax do very well.
Or watch his YouTube channel.
I’ve a feeling he doesn’t like Putoline cos it attracts dust as it contains oil. I may well be wrong.
My chain is totally clean other than a bit of splashed up mud. Clean hands. Nice.
Hey. Anyhow.
Each to their own
It doesn’t seem a faff to me as the ZFC method increases the life of a £300+ cassette. I like to get all the contamination out with a bit of boiling water.
I ran 2 XX1 11s chains 2 years on the same X01 cassette and all are like new. No wear detected on chain with Pedros guage.
So my order of MSW arrives tomorrow hopefully. I have today cleaned a brand new SRAM X01 chain (only afterwards did I discover that cleaning it more than 12 hours before waxing was a no no 🙄). Hopefully it will remain rust free until tomorrow.
I used the 5 x white spirit bath followed by 2 x meths process…. I didn’t dry the white spirit off with a hairdryer but I did dry the meths off like that… 🤷♂️ It had better be bloody good is all I can say.
In the meantime I cleaned a slightly used chain (100 miles) and put Squirt on it. It’s gone rusty in a few small spots already after I went out on damp roads this morning and then rinsed off when I got home. The rust is around the rollers too not the side plates. Rubbish.
Ocean skipper. Good work
I don’t think an X01 chain will rust. That’s a big advantage. Good luck waxing. Keep up to it. Boiling water rinses and re wax after a wet ride. Getting the chain back to zero contamination (near as) is one great thing about this methodology.
For those concerned/put off by the cleaning process, I'll be buying all my waxing goodies from https://inaspin.co.uk/ who will also supply you a pre-cleaned chain.
They only offer YBN chains but they seem to score pretty favourably in various durability tests, and inaspin make some interesting claims about wax adhering better to YBN chains than e.g. Shimano. This might explain some of the variable results I've had with Putoline in the past but I've not been scientific to record which applications last longest. I know the 105 chain on my winter road bike has done at least 300km since last application and still feels fine.
My partner has just converted to hot wax chains and I'm going to do the same now that I need to replace my chain. People seem to see the 'faff' of hot waxing and reapplying after a wet ride and then get turned off by it but last time I cleaned my drivechain of gunk and grit and mud properly, it took well over 30 minutes and even then the whole drivetrain still wasn't 100% clean. That' a hell of a lot of faff when I could just take off the chain, rewax it then put it back on. Also I'm looking forward to not having to replace my chain or cassette not nearly as often.
Also I’m looking forward to not having to replace my chain or cassette not nearly as often.
First winter where my 105 chain on my road bike is showing no wear after riding all winter. Normally I bin the chain and cassette as they're both totally shagged around this time of year. To be fair, it was a drier winter than normal here, but still a big difference.
They only offer YBN chains but they seem to score pretty favourably in various durability tests, and inaspin make some interesting claims about wax adhering better to YBN chains than e.g. Shimano.
As an aside, the Planet X Jobsworth chains are 'made for them' by YBN and are (relatively) dirt cheap - 12 quid odd for a 10-speed - from a quick read, they appear to have the same hardening and features as the less s****y YBN chains sold by In A Spin. I don't know if they are the same chain, but it's hard to believe that YBN has a separate spec for Planet X chains. Obviously you can't buy them pre-cleaned and/or pre-waxed.
So wait, if chains last a long time with wax then it's probably worth getting one that won't rust.
I'm on Shimano 11sp on road and MTB, can I use an X01 chain? Suggestion is that XX1 is super durable anyway, so with wax it could last years - 11sp can be had for £35.
First winter where my 105 chain on my road bike is showing no wear after riding all winter.
Sorry if you've already said this @footflaps but how many times did you wax it?
I read that there is negligible difference between X01 and XX1 so I bought the cheaper one!
The chain that rusted with Squirt was a low end SRAM (not sure which one, it came new on the bike).
MSW is not arriving until tomorrow now. 🙄 I do have the slow cooker and Silca lube (ready for after a wet ride) though….
SRAM chains have slightly different roller sizes, so are not always compatible with other chains. KMC claims that theirs are fully compatible with SRAM are not technically true, so just be aware with running crossing brands.
KMC can’t be waxed either, according to ZFC as their coatings repel wax.
So the MSW waxed chain is on and I've just done 20 miles on it. It is buttery smooth and shifting is silent and instantaneous. I can see why people like it. It did take a full hour to heat the pot up and melt the wax but I only needed one puck in to get it deep enough. There are wax flakes scattered about the drivetrain and chain stay etc but they brush off readily enough. Lets see how long it lasts....
KMC can’t be waxed either, according to ZFC as their coatings repel wax.
Well my KMC chain on the Shand was waxed for the big ride - retreated once in 3000 miles. so thats baloney
I expect Putoline sticks OK. They're talking about MSW with no oil in it at all.
Lets see how long it lasts….
Take it out for a ride in the pouring rain that's forecast tomorrow 🙂
good work Oceanskipper, if you need help, do PM me and I'll try.
You wonder how it will last? a LONG time with the right care.
ZeroFrictionCycling is an amazing resource
- I've no idea why folk doubt the serious testing Adam Kerin does, almost all drip lubes are really poor in comparison to hot wax immersion of a CLEAN chain. And, as you've experienced, its not much trouble - yeah do set the slow cooker pot to heat as soon as you start washing. It does take maybe an hour to get to the ideal 80C.
OK, so ZeroFrictionCycling's basic premise is reducing friction, but as that also increases drivertrain life massively, it should be on everyones radar. Who would not want a £300+ cassette to last 5+ times longer?
Do take your chain off and rinse in boiling water then dry and rewax if it gets any mud/ grit on it bacause that contamination will findoits way inside the links / rollers and act as a grindign paste (as any dirty lube will).
Super easy cleaning is one massive point in favour of of immersive hot waxing, the chain is totally cleaned with just agitation in boiling water. To get a chain with pretty much any other lube (inc Smoove and Squirt) proper clean requires multiple solvent baths (or the rather expensive UFO clean, which I use only on cassette and chainring) .
You should get 10 uses out of the SRAM quicklink before it stops clicking.
oceanskipper
"I read that there is negligible difference between X01 and XX1 so I bought the cheaper one!
The chain that rusted with Squirt was a low end SRAM (not sure which one, it came new on the bike).
MSW is not arriving until tomorrow now. 🙄 I do have the slow cooker and Silca lube (ready for after a wet ride) though…."
yes on the chains
but "no" on using the Silca Super Secret" drip lube, its great to 'top up'a hot waxed chain (do let it set overnight) on a dry chain but its not gonna expel the contamination from a wet ride. The boiling water rinse is essential if the chain is contaminated. or youre riding on grinding paste.
To get rid of a bit of the inconveneince I roate 2 chains so theres alweays a newly waxed one ready to go on.
Do take your chain off and rinse in boiling water then dry and rewax if it gets any mud/ grit on it bacause that contamination will findoits way inside the links / rollers and act as a grindign paste (as any dirty lube will).
If I had to do that it would be an absolute deal breaker. I don't believe it's necessary in the least.
The boiling water rinse is essential if the chain is contaminated. or youre riding on grinding paste.
The dirt does not get into a nicely waxed chain, that's the whole point. Or if it does it gets squeezed out.
Mudfish
Has ZFC tested putoline? He hadn't last time i looked. It doesn't need any cleaning. The wax does it making it even quicker and easier.. 5 mins in the bath of molten wax is all thats needed.
I’ve no idea why folk doubt the serious testing Adam Kerin does,
It's a rabbit hole, I'd rather ride my bike.
almost all drip lubes are really poor in comparison to hot wax immersion
If Putoline is 10,000% longer lasting than drip lube, then I'm less excited that something else lasts 10% longer than putoline, or reduces friction by a few percent (when drivetrain losses are <7W anyway for the worst case).
And it's so long lasting I don't really care what the competition is upto? I've got a tin and a half of putoline, so at a pessimistic estimate that's going to be 2040 at least, maybe 2050 before I need to look at a lube grouptest to see what I'll buy next.
Who would not want a £300+ cassette to last 5+ times longer?
Me, but I'm less fussy whether it lasts 4.9 or 5.1x longer. SRAM's already on the road to obsoleting current 12s with their 'transmission' standard, presumably shimano will follow suit. My summer road bike cassette dates back to 10speed!
MSW might be better, but I'm not throwing out a 30 year supply of putoline for highly marginal gains.
Has ZFC tested putoline? He hadn’t last time i looked. It doesn’t need any cleaning. The wax does it making it even quicker and easier.. 5 mins in the bath of molten wax is all thats needed.
I think the test that will never happen is ZFC style testing of "real world" waxing.
Does making a smokey mess of putoline matter because the fryer gets hot too quickly so it burns before it melts?
Does 80C Vs 200C make any difference?
Does it matter that for 10 years I cleaned my chains in the wax? And now I throw them in still soaked in white spirit and diesel?
Does it matter that it's contaminated with OEM grease and old chainsaw oils?
Does it make a difference if I wax it for "1 cup of tea" or "2 beers and a kebab" before I remember to take it out?
I think the obvious advantage to MSW is less of the gunk around jockey wheels/chainring that comes with Putoline, which on a road bike that spends less time caked in mud, might be preferable. The removing the chain after washing my bike is the bit I'm not sure I fancy doing - I wash it regularly, virtually after every ride as I ride on some damp tracks as well as the roads and I ride in the rain occasionally too. The MSW feels luxurious and smooth though on my new bike which I haven't tried with Putoline. I will probably keep the Putoline on the MTB.
Well, I went on a 4hr road ride in the rain today... hmmm.
The bike and I were filthy. So when I got back I rinsed off the bike with a bit of car shampoo in a bucket of warm water and brought it inside to dry while I ate lunch. I then took the chain off and gave it a boiling water bath or three, as per the instructions on ZFC; some grit etc came off and I let it dry then whacked it in the slow cooker with the MSW. I thought I would give the cassette a once over as my order of UFO Drivetrain Clean got delivered (Royal Mail - on a Sunday 🤷♂️) just as I was waiting for the chain and annoyingly as I was cleaning it I noticed a couple of rust spots on the cassette, literally a couple but still. Not very satisfactory really.
However, the drive train itself - including the chain, were very very clean, no gunk anywhere, but if it goes rusty during a wet ride then it's a total waste of time if you ask me....Maybe topping it up with either the Silca or something else BEFORE the wet ride is going to help but again, bit of a faff with that as it needs to set overnight and potentially takes longer to clean afterwards - perhaps I'll try it and see.... I do like the way it shifts silently and quickly with the MSW though, and it feels faster, so I'm keen to persevere for a bit, not least because I've bought the bloody stuff now...
Decided to post the above in my own thread instead so Mods feel free to delete..
Thread update on the DIPWAX cold emersion waxing….
So far so very good! I appreciate it has been an exceptionally dry 4-5 weeks in southern England, but I’m coming up to 400km on both my road bike (new KMC 10sp chain) and ebike (cleaned Linkglide 10sp chain) on an initial clean and emersion, with perhaps a weekly drip treatment from the supplied mini bottle.
I’ve kept a log of mileage, so I have an eye on a fresh dip this weekend, but that’s not because the drivetrain feels dry or noisy. The Linkglide eeb train does look very dry and shiny, but when manipulated you can feel there is a lubricant in between the rollers. I think the weekly drip treatment is all it’s needed to say supple and quiet.
Both are also very clean drivetrains. No gunk clogging the pulley wheels or mech cages. I had to repair the KMC chain roadside twice and finished with fairly clean hands – a minor win!
I think I’ve cleaned 7 chains so far with the cleaner and I think it’s lost a bit of its cutting power. I need to strain it through a coffee filter and try again.
The residual packet of wax is still going, with about 1/3 used and I suspect enough to do 5 or 6 more chain.
I’ve emailed Tom at Hagen to make him aware of the chain waxing Histeria on this forum and prompted him to get in touch with editorial to send over some kits for testing.
So, in summary:
Good
- Very easy and mess-free cleaning and wax application
- Effective chain cleaner
- Useful durability (in dry weather…)
- Feels smooth and supple in use
- The Kit can do a lot of chains
- Gunk free bike
- No need for crock pots etc
- Biodegradable credentials
- Create coms and service from Tom at Hagen
Bad
- Wet / muddy use a bit of an unknown
- Chains have corroded/ discoloured a bit (is that normal for all waxed chains?)
- Quite expensive
- The top up lube pen needs to be larger or some clean wax needs to be set aside to keep this topped up
Link again -
https://hagenautomation.com/products/dipwax-system