[Closed] Coil/air shocks & general moan

There's really no reason why we can't have bikes that would run for a lifetime rather than being mostly disposable stuff to replace every few years.

less $ for makers obviously...

But, arguably a manufacturer that made kit that lasts with just renewing bits that wear out would sell well too.

Interesting post... some points for good debate. My 2 cents as a bike designer/manufacturer for what its worth:

Specialized used to use plastic bushings on their pivots, but they've shifted to sealed bearings and a propriety mount at one end of the shock. For truly durable low-maintenacne designs, plastic cylinders exposed to grit is far from optimal. We need shocks to be mounted on sealed cartridge bearings asap.

Yes and no, there's actually some pretty good polymer bush technology out there thats very good for the purpose. Most shock positions isolate the bushes away from the main crud and dirt of the daily ride, so there's not a massive exposure, and if you use the right tech in there, bush life can be measured in years. I think we can all agree that the commonplace DU bushes are pretty rubbish, but Im not convinced that going to a ball bearing is the answer for a couple of reasons. As mentioned the bush solution can be relatively low friction, and have a decent service life. Given the cost and ease of replacement of these parts, this can be a very viable trade off. Also, using a bearing requires a more complex design and some sort of proprietary shock mount (theres no standard for this right now and although you could double up with a 'static' bush and bearing, thats not really addressing the issue). I'm currently testing a polymer bush that has a very low COF and offers some elastic properties allowing for impact absorption without damaging the bush - extending life considerably... or at least thats the theory. Bushes and bearings both have the same flaw with a dislike of high impact loads and low rotation, and while ball bearings are not progressing in anyway to reduce this flaw, bushes are so bushes may still prove to be the better ultimate solution.

The general durability of the rock shox rear shock was poor

Yup. They were. Shocks now tend to be more reliable. They (obviously) need a more aggressive cleaning and service regime than coils, but I would say 50% of issues come from the dampers not the air spring, so while coils are more reliable, they are not entirely so.

Another thing is tubeless tyre scam - it's fairly necessary to reduce pinch flats in a race situation - but after trying Stans system - the flaw of burping with cornering force is dumb - compared with how a tubed system would respond. Using a coil shock with tubed tyres let me run much more suitable tyre pressures.

Thats a valid point, but it does depend on many factors, especially tyre choice and rim choice. For [i]most[/i] riders a good combo will provide a better ride, no punctures and burping is not an issue. Many people though (not saying you did) forget that you lose air consistently over time in tubeless - its inherent in the nature of how they work, and so many burping/rolling issues I see are from riders not maintaining their tyre pressures correctly.

Air shocks (and a team mechanic) make sense for racing where climbing is the main time saver - but for general trail routes, the performance of a coil shock is in another league all together. But because bike shops want to stock product that look like podium winners, there's not a single trail bike sold in the UK fitted with a coil rear shock.

The real rise of the air shock is down to average quality of ride. Put another way on average the customer gets a better ride from an air shock... why you ask? Because an air shock is likely to be better set up for a rider than a coil. It comes down to the spring tuneability and how bikes are assembled. Coils are almost certain to be the wrong weight for any given rider, whereas an air shock only needs a shock pump. Because bikes are generally assembled and packaged long before sale, the option to tune that spring weight would fall to the shop. Given that customers would almost certainly want a correct brand spring (trust me on this), you'd require the shop to carry lots of springs to cover all the possible weights and brands they stock. Lots and lots. Moreover, you'd need the shops to then assess the customer's weight and riding style to get the right spring, and accept responsibility when they get it wrong - even when thats just bad information from the customer. Thats something most shops would not want to do.

The other major factor is weight - through marketing mainly, we've (I say that in the general sense) been convinced that weight is a determining factor in how a bike should be. Adding a coil adds a lb or so of weight. A lb is enough to push a bike from its given 'desired' weight bracket, into the 'too heavy' bracket. Buyers respond to this more so than they do ultimate ride quality - sorry but its true!

I lost a set of Mag21s on a ProFlex with the same Aluminium oxidisation problem on the crown too.

Consider this a blessing.

I'm sort of thinking that built in obsolescence and inadequate design is a strategy on the part of the bike industry to shift more product. There's really no reason why we can't have bikes that would run for a lifetime rather than being mostly disposable stuff to replace every few years.

Sort of correct Im afraid. The market demands that bikes progress at a certain rate, and so investing in making things bombproof is somewhat futile. You will sell more bikes by adding a door in the downtube where you can keep a tube, or some pants, or maybe a sandwich or something than you will by making the bearings last for 10 years. Why? Because buyers want the pants door more than they do a 10 year bike. Bike companies are commercial businesses and so they deploy their engineering resources to where they make the most money, and yes they (on the whole I think) disregard long service life (3+ years), ease of maintenance etc., or at least long service life with minimal money spent, as a necessity. I personally (and we all do here at Bird) disagree with that ethos, and so a good deal of all our design and spec efforts goes into making sure the bikes will last as long as we can make them do so, and offer simple home maintenance, within a sensible budget. Offering a lifetime warranty does somewhat focus the mind on that too!

Finally FWIW I do agree on coil shocks offering the ultimate ride... expect some coil options to appear on Bird full sussers in the near future! You heard it here first folks.

First off, thanks for the interesting post. I'm sure a lot of people will be put off by the length, which is a shame as there are some interesting points in there (and in the responses).

As a user; one of the reasons why I don't demand longevity in my mountain bikes is the speed with which they are evolving. In contrast to the road, where the basic design was fixed many years ago and where you can legitimately talk about a bike for life, mountain bike designers still seem to be experimenting with the basics (angles, lengths etc). My road bike is 15 years old and other than the desire for new shiny stuff I can't see any reason to change it. Whatever mountain bike I buy now it's hard to imagine that I wont be tempted by something new inside 5 years, so longevity doesn't seem that big a deal.

I must admit that I've never tried a coil shock. As a relatively new convert to mountain bikes an air shock seems to make sense. It's lighter (although I'll accept that may not actually matter) and I can change the way it behaves with a shock pump (and maybe by adding a token). Pulling it apart and applying some grease every now and then seems to be a small price to pay for that versatility. But maybe I should look more carefully at coil shocks.

Finally, as has been touched on, there are already options for those that want a bike that will last a long time. A steel hardtail (or even rigid) bike will do the job most of the time. You can use tyres of pretty much any size you want to get the desired level of low-maintenance squish. If you really want full-suss then something from Orange's range with a coil shock should keep trucking for as long as you want it to.

bearings and pivot maintenance are the trade off for riding a FS in the winter in the UK, but to have the bushes wear out after 4 days is pretty bad 😯

OP how much do you weigh? (sorry, should explain, not trying to be rude) but in my experience Big bloke (and I'm guessing you are, given your various experiences) on a 100mm (and therefore a XC) frame = short life.

Thanks for the read, some interesting points made.

Regarding the issue of longevity, I think what you are getting at is the nature of the full sus design i.e. more moving parts subjected to high loads = more chance of things wearing out / going wrong.

I'm watching the emerging plus size / Boost trend with interest because I'm guessing that a plus size 29er hardtail with wide rims and 3" tyres run at lowish pressures (perhaps even a leaf spring fork) might feel similar to a short travel full sus without the addition of more things to go wrong.

I'll certainly be looking at something like this when I'm in the market for a new bike.

All I read in that was:
Things were rubbish ages ago
No one makes something that only I want
I cant set up tubeless or air shocks properly
I don't understand the concept of a business

Interesting read.

I've owned bikes which devour a shock bushing in 4months of hard use which is a short life for something, but for a few quid and a few mins to change it's not the end of the world.

4 days on the other hand is appalling, but I would say not typical for the life of shock bushings in general. So it would be unfair to brand this design approach useless. I do disagree with the need to use a bearing at the shock mount point. I find shock bushings life is significantly shortened if there is any play in the pivots. Just to suggest one possible reason why yours didn't last long.

I do also find some US bikes make you wonder if they even have mud over there. My Santa Cruz doesn't have much rear tyre clearance and a nice little shelf for the mud to collect thanks to the pivot design. It's almost as if they wanted it to clog up with mud really easily!

I'm afraid I disagree about the tubeless tyre scam. When set up properly it's awesome. Defiantly a solution if you're getting pinch punctures. If you're burping when cornering then I'd be looking at your rim and tyre choice as that shouldn't be happening.

Air shocks are becoming more popular than ever. They're becoming much more tuneable and offering much higher levels of performance. So much so that they are starting to appear more and more on DH bikes. A place where you would have only ever seen a coil shock up unto a few years ago. So again it's a shame you've had a problem with your one, but I wouldn't be branding them all as useless anytime soon.

A gap in the market for robust mid travel bikes?? The market is currently saturated with 140-160mm travel 'enduro bikes' which can certainly look after you in conditions you would have only taken a DH bike 10 years ago.

I'm sort of thinking that built in obsolescence and [s]inadequate[/s] [b]designed to wear out [/b]design is a strategy on the part of the bike industry to shift more product.

140-160mm is not mid travel. manufacturers want to sell you it as but its not its acutally quite alot of travel!

125-140 is about right for 90% of uk riding and riders i think.

i'll admit shock tech has progressed a bit so it can sometimes be ok to pedal a 160mm bike. but i'll still wager a shorter travel bike, setup decently, will be more than adequate for most.

and tubeless is a bit of a scam. i cant decide whether i like it and i live somewhere with loads of hawthorn trees.

How is tubeless a scam? You can these days use 'normal' tyres, a lot of rims come tubeless ready, or at worst you have to fit some rim strips or tape & valves, squirt some stans jizz in and away to go, no more thorn punctures, or pinch flats/burping if you match rims/tyres well. Less rolling resistance, less punctures, potentially more grip, similar weight. People who have problems are I think setting them up fundamentally wrong, or using bad combinations of rims 7 tyres.

Needle roller bearings on the shock mounts is the way to go.
18 months trouble free so far. Only maintenance so far has been a precautionary re-grease using Castrol marine grease.

Interesting post. I don't agree with all of it, but I don't disagree entirely either. Couple of points.

Bearings aren't so great when you're loading them at the same point over and over (i.e in a shock linkage). They're better when actually spinning. This evens out the wear over at least one of the races. Bushes are also much more compact therefore easier & simpler to design for, also requiring less material (therefore less weight and cost).

Pinch flats and burping definitely suggest you need more air in your tyres. I know it's a combination of luck, tyre choice, personal riding style and more luck but for many people, tubeless has resulted in a massive number of punctures when riding in normal and rocky terrain.

Ghetto tubeless setup has stopped me pinch flaying and burping. If it's good enough for Graves it's good enough for me.

I can sort of see the "tubless is a scam" argument, you have to choose rims, tyres and pressure pretty carefully rather than just going:

"woo, goop and a ghetto set-up that's me sorted for 10psi.."

my rear used to be at about 30psi with a tube in it, it's still at about 20-25psi tubless, and I'm a lightweight. Haven't had a puncture in ooohhh, forever though.

All good points in the past, but technology has come on a fair way. New air shocks with bigger negative springs mean they actually work over small bumps and the ability to add volume reduction spacers to increase ramp up is great and genuinely works. The same applies to forks, you can now change travel and spring curves at home with only a few tools. As a previously firm coil stalwart I've changed my opinion after riding 2015 and 2016 air sprung forks and shocks. They're not perfect and still don't quite meet coil standards but for me they're so close it doesn't matter. Having tuning possibilities that are even easier than coil is a huge factor.

As far as tubeless goes, you just need to run it with nice wide rims and use tyres with decent enough sidewalls. Get the right kit and the kit works well together.

Regarding the original point about no suitable bikes, if you want a low service interval bike that will last and has a coil shock I'm sure Orange bikes would supply you with a Five and a Cane Creek Double Barrel happily. Or try a Turner, the bushings last years if well maintained (well, mine certainly did). Both lovely handmade bikes with sensible angles and sensible travel.

Orange bikes would supply you with a Five and a Cane Creek Double Barrel happily

tru dat...There are def ways of mitigating the servicing

Some interestin observations, and some of the reasons why 14 years ago I bought a Ti hardtail and not a full suss bike.

I still ride it now with minimal maintenance or expenditure. 1 set of shifters, a wheel hub bush, couple of chainrings and cassettes, and two bottom brakets. Not really anything else. The forks are due for a service or replacement, but I've stuck some rigid forks on for now.

I built it with a very long term view (ie last me a lifetime). You don't HAVE to succumb to industry if you don't want to...

Cheers for responses - I do feel better for having had a grump about the state of it all.

"Bird"
that's a new name to me. Photos look tidy on the website.

"Orange's range with a coil shock should keep trucking for as long as you want it to"
Yeah, I hear that from a few folk - that they like their Oranges. I bought a sub5 frame over in NewZealand in...2004 and it didn't work out very well so I'm a bit put off the brand - part of the problem was probably so far away from customer service - but emails to them directly didn't get much response. The swing arm just seemed really flexy - so that with pedalling the rear shock ended up being worn either side - I replaced it for a manitou coil but then I had dramas with corrosion on the top tube - I sent Orange photos but they were pretty much just 'ooh that's unusual' and no further help. Then the bearing seized onto the frame - in the end needing to be attacked by the bike shop with unfriendly power tools to remove it. Meanwhile the stantions on the VanR forks marked up within 3 months of riding, the seals stopped holding oil and Fox refused to warranty - ended up having to post the forks away and pay for new stantions but they were just pants compared to how Marzochi kit used to be. All up, I was sort of put off Orange & Fox - but just unlucky experience for me I guess.

"A steel hardtail (or even rigid) bike will do the job most of the time"
yup - sort of loving my Cotic BFe for now - except I have a lower back disc thing on the go and I'm just getting beat up on the trails - hence general moan at no proper mountain bikes for sale in the shops.

"to have the bushes wear out after 4 days is pretty bad "
yeah - I thought so too! I had chats on the phone with the tuning company I got the fox coil replacement from to see if the system on that Sunn Shamann had been unusual and the response was that it's the same as on every stock bike sold. The week up in the Lakes was fairly enthusiastic - sort of riding all daylight but nothing much gnarlier than Walna Scar / Garburn etc - plus the bike was put in a hostel shed grubby overnight - just made me think most bikes get an easier life or I was really unlucky somehow. Looking at the bush mount - there isn't much to stop grit getting on the load bearing surfaces and I guess it's better that wears than part of the bike/shock itself

"how much do you weigh?"
gym machine says 79kg, with 19.5% lard content

"plus size 29er"
sounds like fun! seems like motorsports sticks with big volume tyres if the surface is rocky - I'm guessing once all the fuss about letting go of fairly skinny 26" wheels, most trail bikes will have fat rubber soon. The way I see it most folk want to have fun out riding - not always so bothered about whether a skinny xc racing snake is faster on a super-lightweight ride. As long as it climbs ok and reliable for a week away then happy days.

"No one makes something that only I want
I cant set up tubeless or air shocks properly"
fair point. I dunno if it's particularly unusual what I want to do on a bike - I think I'd just like a sturdy ~120mm travel coil full suspension ride that I'd feel ok about taking into the mountains year round. I posted just because the difference in performance between a 2013 monarch and fox van coil was incredible - like I said instead of having to use 45+psi to avoid pinch flats, I could run 25 and hit stuff ok. I did spend a a good while faffing with set-up, with input from shock tuners but coupled with unreliability I was happy enough to switch to coil and until I twisted that frame it was brill. Ha - I managed to pop 8 spokes over time in the rear wheel too - feedback from shop was that black spokes seemed to fail more often - after swapping to DT double butted it was fine. Ok, so maybe all a bit more adventurous a life than the xc marathon bike was expecting but I'm a timid rider and not into jumping/stunts etc - plus this sunn shamann was a ~£2800 new ride or thereabouts so you'd expect it to cope with a few days in the hills.

"some US bikes make you wonder if they even have mud over there"
I hear you - this Sunn was a european version of a US design, but still 2.1" ADvantage was about as fat a rear as it would take. I read a mag article about US bike designs coming to ride over here and they were shocked about heading out in the mud rather than wait for a sunny day!

"125-140 is about right for 90% of uk riding and riders i think."
True that. Even a bit less - Banshee Phantom is a burly 105mm 29er and felt like the best out of test rides so far. I don't want to fuss with locking out shock for climbing - want the bounce for traction and take rocky steeps so I figure a coil shock sub120ish would be ideal. Another thing...as much as I like the OneUp 30>42 1x10 I'm running, it's too tall a gear for long steeps - it's a crazy idea to spec most bikes with just single - mostly limits them to be driven to a trail-centre for a short 4hr loop.

"tubeless tyre...When set up properly it's awesome"
Yeah I've read that a few times - but going back to that week in the Lakes, riding between YHAs and longer days in the hills (I stayed in Coniston/Windermere/Keswick and rode between bases with a lamp after days out on the trails) - it's not that easy to set up with a folding mini pump is it? Might be brill with a CO2 cartridge or track pump and without getting punctures - but if it does fail - like I had a proper nasty tumble cornering when the front tyre burped off the rim, it seems to more faff than positive. I should try another go at it - the feedback here was just that surprisingly running a coil rear shock seemed to take out loads of pinch flat risks that lead to need for tubeless to begin with.

"designed to wear out"
Yeah - for racing and driving the bike to a centre, it's mostly no dramas at all - but for a bigger day out or a few days away from a shop in the hills, it's just a bit of a worry sometimes. I think I'd settle for bit heavier/more reliable/more£ than chase latest fashions.

"Less rolling resistance, less punctures, potentially more grip, similar weight."
No doubt - especially on a hardtail or a light bike I figure tubeless is probably a bit necessary.

"Needle roller bearings on the shock mounts is the way to go."
Any more info about what sort of bike/set-up? sounds cool

(soz for text wall - was just interesting posts from folk and wanted to chip in again)

"Bushes are also much more compact therefore easier & simpler to design for, also requiring less material (therefore less weight and cost"

fair enough - it'd be cool if there was a way to seal them a bit better to stop grit sneaking in

"Pinch flats and burping definitely suggest you need more air in your tyres"
Ha - that first week of riding heard some creative swearing from me! I was despairing a bit really - even with a ToPeak digi pressure meter if I dropped below 45psi at the rear, riding into rocks would just pop the tube and at that sort of tyre pressure I'd just ping off stuff. Sure, finesse hopping over stuff rider-error etc - but line choice with a bit of momentum on rocky Lakes tracks isn't alway carefully considered! Part of it a bit I guess is having spent 10yrs up-skilling on the mtb over in NZ so I was used to travelling a little quicker - but on mostly smoother trails. I've given up on clip-ins too, opted for dmr vaults & 510 freerides. The burping drama was the front tyre from cornering - my sense was I could run lower pressure in a tubed system without any ouchy tumbles

(for now, running 2.5 High Roller/Minnions - with a maxxis free-ride inner tube on the rear at...22psi is working alright - but kinda heavy and too fat to fit in a lot of bouncy bikes. I'll maybe try out tubeless set up on next bike. I liked the ADvantages but - again must just be me, the XC rear and regular 2.25 on the front both failed at the sidewalls before the tread wore out - so back to sturdier kit for a bit)

"air shocks with bigger negative springs mean they actually work over small bumps"
cheers - good to hear other folks' experience. Turner's look decent too

"14 years ago I bought a Ti hardtail and not a full suss bike"
Good call. I wonder, for a laugh, would any racers consider riding on even a 3yr old enduro frame? On one hand it's great that we can ride the same kit as talented professionals and in the scheme of things even at, say £1000 a year loss of always riding a fresh bouncy trail bike - it's a cheap enough hobby. But on the other hand I kinda think we're being taken for mugs some of the time - it's crazy that a fancy carbon enduro bike might sell for more than a new HarleyDavidson. I'd be totally set on sticking with this Cotic BFe - I mean the excitement of riding it, sense of speed, peace-of-mind/reliability wins enough for me - but despite being staunch about it I just get a bit beat up after half a day of riding (I have a bit of Sciatica/disc-nerve pressure thing for now) so really just want a reliable, thought-through full-sus ride and felt a bit uninspired about the choices available.

If you like the shorter travel bikes, look at the Transition Scout. It's a straight up Horst 4-bar though so has plenty of bearings to wear out! It is Canadian though, I hear they have mud there. I bought mine after a test ride and I'm dead pleased. I'm riding faster on it than any other bike I've had, which I think is due to the increased confidence the longer front centre brings, but who knows. It's got 125mm travel and is built solidly. It pedals fine, though not as well as the Turner, and descends superbly.

I'm no engineer, but don't needle bearings in pivots have a reputation for wearing a groove due to the small repetitive movements rather than full rotation?

"Transition Scout"
looks decent - cheers for tip : )

I didn't really have a problem with the main pivots on the 4-bar, no grumbles from them even with a couple of years of neglect, it was the shock mount bits that wore out to give a bit of play - I mean it still basically went in a straight line, but it was possible to lift the seat up a tiny bit before the back end would follow if that makes sense and it just seemed a bit naff after less than a week of winter. The mail order co sent me new bushes and we had chats about if there was any other mounting system and confirmed with another shock tuner that it's just par for the course for now. I had much better life out of the bushes with regular riding - maybe 6 or so changes over a year - but there must be something gnarly about proper grit!

that makes sense about bearings being designed for regular spinning, being a bit uncomfortable with just oscillating a bit instead. In general, I'd bet money too on a lot of the computer analysis mostly modelling the bike in a horizontal orientation with a vertical load - rather than the angle forces hit the rear wheel on a descent - let alone trying to factor in much of a side load from the drive train being unsymmetrical or cornering twisty forces too - the sums just get a bit fiddly - so much of it is prototyping and re-design (hopefully!)

[i]I dunno if it's particularly unusual what I want to do on a bike - I think I'd just like a sturdy ~120mm travel coil full suspension ride that I'd feel ok about taking into the mountains year round[/i]

see, to me that just screams Orange 5... I know you've had issues with your old sub5, but that was 9 years ago, and they've got a lot better since then. Test ride?

What's the least travel you can run on a five and not kill the handling?

i read this and thought '5' too, but then i own one, and chose it for minimal faff. i never changed the bearings on my 2009, and a mate has just built it up, and i bought another 5. have helped mates change bearings on multi-pivot bikes and would have to be very convinced of their advantages before i thought of buying one.
if you really want something with minimal maintenance maybe take a look at the stooges with a b+ rear for a bit of cush?
you'll find plenty of reading about them here....
i quite fancy one myself but 27.2 seatpost puts me off

Good call on the 5 - and I know it's shallow of me - but I'm unimpressed at them not speccing a 5/segment with a double up-front - almost like they're aiming more at trail centre commuters. I didn't have that Shamann long enough to fuss over the multi-pivot bearings as they were working alright for a couple of years - but ordeal of the bearing cold-welding itself to the earlier sub5 frame doesn't encourage me about general durability of moving parts

*daydreams ideal bike*
I think possibly 29"...bit sturdy but probably around ~120 travel, wonderful if it had a slightly rearward axle path for hitting bumps coming downhill - so nearly like that Banshee Phantom then - except without the dumb idea of different places for the rear wheel - also lots more tyre clearance or even scope for +tyres sometimes. Coil shocks probably front & rear (I know it's budget but my 150mm sektor for now is a bit sketch - if it's soft enough to work as suspension then it does epic dives with braking but set up bit harder and the static friction/stiction means it only really moves with thud on the trail rather than working like suspension to take out vibrations - to be blunt my coil 100mm rockshox Judy of 15yrs ago was a better ride)

ha - I just read in MBR letters about a bike suggestion and their pick was a Canyon Strive - so a multi-pivot bike with an extra adjustable office-chair-technology part, extra bushings and another lever - Good Luck for that working in 3yrs time!

Are your sektors coil or air... if they are air you could probably fix the dive!

Honestly, you just seem grumpy and upset.

Why would a Canyon Strive not be working in 3 years time? Seriously, explain why please. If you look after your expensive purchase (like manufacturers tell you to do), it won't break down half as quick. Bikes are put under a lot of strain, so a few bits breaking is perfectly acceptable over time regardless, just like they did in the olden days when everything was 'better' and 'easier' like people seem to think.

You just seem like the idea of technology moving on is just wrong, and therefore will never be good enough to meet the seemingly unattainable standards you are looking for.

If a company could make their products last forever, imagine how much it would cost you. £1000 for a mech? £10000 fox forks? I'm sure you would be front of the queue to buy then wouldn't you. No, you wouldn't. Nobody would. Which is why we have products that don't usually last forever; So that the businesses can sell more, we can afford them in the first place, and years down the line we can buy more because the business is still in business. Something they wouldn't be if they sold one time only products for stupid prices.

like that Banshee Phantom then - except without the dumb idea of different places for the rear wheel - also lots more tyre clearance or even scope for +tyres sometimes

Speaking as a Banshee owner the adjustable geometry is great - really good for tweaking the vibe of the bike to suit your riding (style/terrain/etc). There's a ton of tyre clearance on all the Banshee frames - you may have been confused by the vertical struts forming the front of the rear triangle, which look very close to the tyre from a side view but are actually miles away.

Also, there's plenty of space for 27+ tyres with the standard dropouts (you can use the adjustable geometry to raise the BB if you like as they make the bike even lower). And if you put the 27.5 dropouts on (the shorter ones are 26/29) then you can run 29+ tyres (and use the flipchips to being the BB height down).

"sektors coil or air?"
solo air. They're set up for now with one click of compression and five clicks of rebound (I just checked and that's 1/4 of the way from the hare towards the tortoise sticker). Running with enough air inside to let me have 130 travel on regular rides - with an extra 20mm I guess for clumsy hitting into something. I've tried around a few possibilities and seems like that works ok for me - but they're not very sensitive to small bumps. It's hard to compare rides - but my call is that the ancient coil Marzochi Z1s, Judys and Fox VanRs (while they worked) did a much job at dealing with vibration and working like suspension rather than just cushioning against bigger bumps.

"Banshee owner"
That's really good to hear - I only had a scoot on the Phantom but it felt sorted. I'm a fan of them using tubes at the back with an extra reinforcing bit inside to make a sort of boxy sideways 8 cross-section, that'll do heaps to stop them twisting so much. I was just nervous thinking that the interface with the adjustable part would be a creaky soundtrack all day and wasn't sure if the soft aluminium would wear a bit there - but no doubt they're designed for bigger hits than me gently rolling along. Really felt like a fun snappy ride - keen to test again. Sounds ace being able to run a second set of fat wheels for off-groomed trails too : )

"Why would a Canyon Strive not be working in 3 years time? Seriously, explain why please."
Ah I don't mean to worry folk - I'm sure it's reliable enough. It's just that with rotating load bearing surfaces, not very well sealed against the elements, with a dollop of grit on top are going to wear out fairly soon - but not in a bad way - just in a having to replace a few bits of it - and it'd just show up as a bit of clunk first rather than something to spoil a ride. That office-chair-technology activating bit to change the geometry adds complexity too that might not last for ever - in addition that bit rotates around heaps more than without so it'll wear faster. Plus any play that develops is sort of amplified on account of it happening in so many places. But none of it's going to cause any tumbles and I agree regular maintenance is essential - I bet they're heaps of fun to ride too!

"you just seem grumpy and upset"
I am a bit - nothing major tho. I'd just about settled for a steel hard tail again and was loving just getting out riding heaps - but it's not agreeing with my back and it's different looking back at bouncy bikes again - maybe it is possible to keep the same frame running for 10yrs or whatever (especially if it's part of a £6k push bike) but I'm more thinking it'll be stuff to break on the trail and spoil a ride (in-between lots of it being genuinely the best performing mountain bike that has ever existed)

"the idea of technology moving on is just wrong"
I'm just a bit unsure all the technology is moving in an appropriate direction for general trail riders. I'm not being a Luddite about it - I'd love to see hi-tech ideas but applied more towards durability and decent product life - instead of a crazy tide of never-ending 'industry standards' so that a fork of a few years ago doesn't fit a frame of today, or last bikes wheels are a different sized hub to the next new frame etc. It just feels a little bit of a sneaky bid for the most cash from bike makers - rather than a fair swap for decent long life kit at a fair investment. Honestly if there was a bike out there that didn't use polymer bushes, had decent sealed cartridge bearings, a frame that went in a straight line through rock garden bits, came with coil suspension - but designed for trails not gravity runs I'd throw maybe £5k at owning it - everyone else must be looking for a different sort of ride I guess.

solo air. They're set up for now with one click of compression and five clicks of rebound (I just checked and that's 1/4 of the way from the hare towards the tortoise sticker). Running with enough air inside to let me have 130 travel on regular rides - with an extra 20mm I guess for clumsy hitting into something. I've tried around a few possibilities and seems like that works ok for me - but they're not very sensitive to small bumps. It's hard to compare rides - but my call is that the ancient coil Marzochi Z1s, Judys and Fox VanRs (while they worked) did a much job at dealing with vibration and working like suspension rather than just cushioning against bigger bumps.

My advice?

1. Strip them and rebuild them with oil (float fluid or similar) in the air chamber and fresh oil in the lowers. Might as well do a seal service while you're at it. You will find that they will open up a whole load if you do that (same applies for all RS forks). Small bump sensitivity will be increased [i]alot[/i].

2. While you're at it, check under the air cap. If its threaded on the inside get some tokens for it. If not buy a new air cap (it will have tokens as part of the kit). Both options are reasonably priced. Start off by running no tokens, and find a pressure you like the feel in the first half of the stroke, but (presumably) dive through the second half and bottom out too easily. Add a token, pressurise again to the same pressure and test. Repeat adding more tokens until the additional progression they provide gives the support in the stroke you need to get the forks soft off the top, but not blowing through the travel.

3. Think to yourself 'ok maybe air forks are not so bad after all' 🙂

Wow! Longest posts ever. As mentioned above this is why I keep on coming back to Turners. They focus on longevity and ride quality and less on weight or fashion.

Good call on the 5 - and I know it's shallow of me - but I'm unimpressed at them not speccing a 5/segment with a double up-front - almost like they're aiming more at trail centre commuters

I used to share your view, that 1x was for trail centres and not suited to "big days out in proper mountains". In fact I still have sympathy with that view, but a few things are starting to change my mind.

First, you can now get pretty low ratios on a 1x setup. With a 28T up front and a 42 (or even 45 if you go for a shimano 11 speed setup with expander) you can get as low as (or lower than) a "standard" 24x36 bottom gear.

Second, I realised that I only use half the cassette with my 2x setup. The smaller sprockets are pretty much unused as I change out of the granny as soon as I can and never need to go beyond the middle with the outer ring off-road. In fact, even on the road (with soft chunky tyres) I don't pedal beyond about 20mph, which is only around 80 rpm with 28x11 on a 29er, so easy enough.

Finally, there are a few folk on here who do "big days out in proper mountains" and choose to use 1x setups.

[i]everyone else must be looking for a different sort of ride I guess[/i]

Not really, it's just that most folk have realised that bikes are always going to be a compromise

As a recentish reverter back to coil shocks, air just doesn't do it for hard riding. Swapped out my lyriks and a fox air shock for some marzocchi 55's and a fox dhx on my old specialized enduro last summer, performance was night and day - small bump and big bumps, off jumps drops rocks etc. Upped the weight to 33lbs but still not a chore by any means to do 50k+ routes in the fod, welsh mountains, and the peak district. Now have an ohlins shock on my new enduro evo longest ride being 52k so far, yea it isn't going to win any hill climbing awards but is very functional and just gets on with it and then the moment it points towards anything resembling technical riding it is awesome and well worth the weight penalty. All about having the most fun possible at the end of the day rather than worrying how fast up fire road I am going to be.

I struggle to see how air shocks can't do it for hard riding when pro DH and ENDURO racers are using them? Yes, plenty use coils too but why would any use air shocks if they couldn't handle that kind of riding?

I do think air forks and shocks are generally harder to tune than coils. And coil shocks and forks will generally have their dampers tuned for harder riding, but that's a damper not spring issue.

They have skill I don't!

Imo it's got to the stage where the new round of dh air shocks are just as good as a coil in performace. The only time when a coil is better is on reaaaally long tracks where you might notice some heat build up in an air shock.

When you've got Gwin and Remi amongst others choosing air shocks over coil for dh tracks like Lourdes and Fort Bill you know air shocks have bridged the gap.

robd

As a recentish reverter back to coil shocks, air just doesn't do it for hard riding.

chiefgrooveguru

I struggle to see how air shocks can't do it for hard riding when pro DH and ENDURO racers are using them? Y

robd

They have skill I don't!

And that's it in a nutshell right there. The first post just reminded me of being in a bike shop and pretty much once a week you were guaranteed to encounter someone with all of the OPs complaints.

Bikes are too expensive, not fit for purpose, too complicated, too weak, air shocks were crap, ... etc etc but when you scraped away the surface you find out that the guy you're talking too was either riding something completely unsuitable and/or they were nowhere near as gnarly as they thought they were and they'd be doing some howlingly awful bike maintenance like power-hosing or spraying WD-40 into the pivots or running 10psi in their tyres and 400 psi in their air can. They'd almost always be some kind of "engineer" too 😉

Current full suspension bikes are sensational. There are some bad ones out there, some design flaws, but on the whole they are sensational. To be able to have an air sprung 160mm bike with comparable or better performance than DH bikes of not so long ago is incredible. With correct maintenance most will go on for many years.

People are being sold bikes that are great for racing/racers people who ride day in day out jimjam not for people who ride 1 or 2 or three times a week on a variety of terrain from fire roads to fort william all on the one bike. Aaron gwin runs his suspension hard and goes faster for it, I am not as skilful or strong so a coil sprung bike with a longer wheelbase etc will flatter my lack of skill and enable me to do road gaps etc, doesn't mean people are using the wrong bike (there is no wrong bike really as long as it's fun for you). Bikes should flatter peoples abilities not the other way around as most of us only get a couple of rides in a week and want to enjoy them as much as possible.

robd - Member

People are being sold bikes that are great for racing/racers people who ride day in day out jimjam not for people who ride 1 or 2 or three times a week on a variety of terrain from fire roads to fort william all on the one bike. Aaron gwin runs his suspension hard and goes faster for it, I am not as skilful or strong so a coil sprung bike with a longer wheelbase etc will flatter my lack of skill and enable me to do road gaps etc, doesn't mean people are using the wrong bike (there is no wrong bike really as long as it's fun for you). Bikes should flatter peoples abilities not the other way around as most of us only get a couple of rides in a week and want to enjoy them as much as possible.

I don't disagree rob, but when I said inappropriate in the above I meant typically a guy who buys a cheap hardtail, takes it to dh track, nothing works. He sees a guy on a dh bike flying past, decides to buy a full sus. Buys a cheap XC full sus. Still doesn't work, in fact it's worse because it's got xc angles, light tyres, narrow bars etc. So he fits wider bars and shorter stem and bumps up the pressure and wonders why he has no grip and keeps going over the bars....that kind of inappropriate. I used to see it all the time. And whilst that may not be the op, that's what his post reminded me of.

If you like coil fine. I dallied with air sprund 160mm bikes 6-7 years ago. Promptly declared them to be shit and built a coil sprung sx trail. Problem solved. Except I couldn't ride it anywhere.

My current 160mm Ghost is Air front and rear and absolutely trounces any coil sprung bike I've ever owned. It can do anything that I have the balls to do, damping is not the issue. The best thing is I can flick on some pro-pedal and some lsc and go for a 40 mile xc spin, or I can open it up, drop some pressure and take it downhilling. So I'll not be going back to coil in a hurry.

"Gwin and Remi amongst others choosing air shocks over coil for dh tracks like Lourdes"
A lot of results are to do with the rider - wasn't Steve Peat winning local early races with 1.5" tyres on a hardtail? Also, that Lourdes result was enough of a unexpected result that FOX took out full page results in the mags. This is the same FOX that provides a one-off prototype coil shock with a lockout to the reigning male Enduro champ too.

"being in a bike shop and pretty much once a week you were guaranteed to encounter someone with all of the OPs complaints"
So, the obvious conclusion is that we're all wrong?

My experience might have been really unusual and soz for text walls : ) but I'm on about a nearly £3k new bike from 3yrs ago equipped with rockshox monarch that blew its seal and left me out on the trails with 5hrs 'riding' to do as it clunked heavily on fully compressed. Even before that when it was running 'OK' hitting rocks would just pinch flat a crazy amount of times with anything less than pinging 45psi - the transformation of ride after swapping to a coil shock was honestly like a brand new bike. I was reading a review of another bike recently & their justified gripe was the rockshox air fork blowing the seal totally off the lower stantion mid-ride. I'm not disputing that sussed out air shocks esp with a negative chamber can perform well - but even if the only rationale for coil was that at 'failure' you weren't faced with a looong walk home then it'd justified to take into the hills - but my feedback of - ok not brand new kit but 3yr old stuff was the step up in performance was incredible!

"Current full suspension bikes are sensational"
No doubt.

"With correct maintenance most will go on for many years."
Not so convinced about the second bit - for a start it's pretty likely even basic stuff like size of wheel axles will have 'evolved' forcing buying the whole thing over again. But sure, as the sport moves more towards snowboarding with resorts and infrastructure in place then it's still a much cheaper hobby than some other alternatives - a buddy of mine windsurfs and has all sorts of sails/boards for different weather - most of which he just runs for a couple of seasons and then replaces.

Did you buy a Sunn Shamann from CRC?

The distinction with motosport and mountain-biking is really significant - on a pushbike the engine pressing down on the pedals is bound to squish the suspension - unless it's de-activated a bit with a 'platform' or lock-out. That sort of thing might be ideal for firetrack climbs or competitive xc with wins happening uphill.

Interesting that the only air rear shocks for motorbikes that FOX lists are for mini-moto bikes. Seems like the coils must perform better for them to justify the extra racing weight. I get that for bicycle racing an extra pound might make a podium difference - but for trail riders, maybe folk would like better performance and durability instead? It all seems a bit topsy-turvy for now, 29ers not generally viewed as burly trail machines - and 160mm enduro rides equipped with cushioning to land doubles rather than deal with natural obstacles - ok so I don't jump but I'd have thought it's pretty average what I want a bike to do.

What I'm suggesting is that a ~110mm coil bike left fully open might be perfect for a big slice of trail riders - that way the suspension can really help with traction climbing and out in the hills the ups might be just as rocky as the downs.

"1x transmissions"
Having a narrow/wide at the front with a clutch rear mech is brilliant - fan here for sure and it makes a lot of sense. But I used to run a 22/36 (0.61) gear and that's welcome late in the day compared to 30/36 (0.83) stock gear on current Oranges - OK possible to select a 30/40 (0.75) on their website but not enough to get rolling on a steep tech climb. If they can't spec a 28/45 (0/62) at point of sale then it's just missing the needs of trail riders a bit. Sure - get fitter legs etc! But it's always ultimately going to be the reason to have to get off for a steep and then tricky to get rolling again. To be honest I'd be happy to run something like 24/45(0.53) thru to 24/10(2.4) on a 1x10 setup - I've not found the need much to spin out big ring gears on tech descents.

Not so convinced about the second bit - for a start it's pretty likely even basic stuff like size of wheel axles will have 'evolved' forcing buying the whole thing over again.

yes, bikes are changing, and it's possible that some of the new standards are going to fall by the wayside - 26"+ as used on the surly instigator I don't see going very far for instance, but by and large i don't think it's half so much of a problem as you've built it up to be.
i'd be pretty confident that if you bought a 27.5 5 now you could still be riding it in 10 years if you didn't break it or break yourself. relatively mainstream, adopts the sensible improvements we have around now.

"Gwin and Remi amongst others choosing air shocks over coil for dh tracks like Lourdes"
A lot of results are to do with the rider - wasn't Steve Peat winning local early races with 1.5" tyres on a hardtail? Also, that Lourdes result was enough of a unexpected result that FOX took out full page results in the mags. This is the same FOX that provides a one-off prototype coil shock with a lockout to the reigning male Enduro champ too.

I never said Gwin won because he had an air shock.. merely that he chose to use it which says something for how capable it is. And it's hardly a shocker that a company makes an ad because a pro rider wins a race on their item?

And with the enduro coil shock, that's likely because enduro stages can be 15 minutes+ compared to around 4 minutes for a dh track so you're much more likely to get heat build up affecting the air pressure.

I'm not pretending to be an expert but I'm sure the pro DHers are, and they're increasingly turning to air.

"Did you buy a Sunn Shamann from CRC?"
y - inappropriate bike selection. Crazy bargain price of £799 & the sense that as a 42yr old timid trail rider after long days out in the hills, a marathon xc style bike would be more than enough for me.

[i]hitting rocks would just pinch flat a crazy amount of times with anything less than pinging 45psi [/i]

tbh though...buy better tyres? There are some shockingly thin side-walled bits of crap that have no place on a bike. But, there's also very capable rubber out there that won't perform badly at all. Last time I burped any amount of air was just shocking riding from me, nowt to do with the tyres.

alsolofty - Member

"Did you buy a Sunn Shamann from CRC?"
y - inappropriate bike selection. Crazy bargain price of £799 & the sense that as a 42yr old timid trail rider after long days out in the hills, a marathon xc style bike would be more than enough for me.

Crazy bargain or cheap for a reason. CRC bought up stock of those when the company went bust. I used to try and talk people out of buying them because they were a flexy horrible mess, tarted up with nice parts. Lean the bike over and put your foot on the pedal and you can see the whole bike flex like a coke can. It also had very XC race focused angles, not something I would see as playful or versatile.

I put it to you that this statement, and maybe all of your post....

there's not a single decent mountain bike that meets my fairly average needs available to buy in the shops yet.

.....is skewed by the fact that you bought a very poorly made bike that was unsuitable for your needs.

Which is unfortunate. If you'd gone to an lbs and spoken to someone who understood your needs I don't think you'd be in the same situation or be feeling the same way.

"the pro DHers are, and they're increasingly turning to air."
It's quite a (popular) niche style of riding tho - there's lots of flat-out pedally sprinting at every opportunity in-between trickier sections...do they run them with a switch to flick to gain a few extra seconds?

Are the runs really only1/3 of the duration of an Enduro descent? How come the downhillers don't ride down the whole hill then?

So all manufacturers are wrong and from the other thread all the general public are wrong.

As a media studies graduate I'd have thought an engineering graduate would be able to think outside the very narrow "everything is shit" line

I like this thread, some valid points from all concerned.

Firstly you need to dismiss the one off air shocks Fox are making for Gwin to race with, they're not production ready or available to you or I....likewise the one off coil Fox fitted to Graves bike for the last EWS race shouldn't really feature in the discussion, these are racing prototypes that may or may not make it to the shop floor.

I've been vocal in the past re. the advantages of coil forks, up until a few months ago I was running a TFtuned coil sprung Sektor that was bloody ace....smooth on small bumps, no bottoming out on tough stuff and stunningly reliable....I just couldn't see the appeal with air forks that leak, require inflating, regular servicing etc....

That said I did rate the performance of a Fox RP23 that came on a Saracen Ariel I owned a few years ago...the Float-32s it had were dire but that's a different story....the shock was very good.
So when a 'cheap' Revelation SoloAir came up recently on Wiggle I took the plunge, I didn't want to replace the Sektors but like a numpty I'd cable tied brake hoses to the crown steerer and caused some unsightly wear...new forks were needed and 26inch stock seemed to be going cheap.

The Revs have been great, easily as good as the coil spring Sektors out on the trail, I can't comment on longevity yet but I have taken them on XC type runs around the local woods and uplift days all over the place...just play with the pressures and away you go....it's got me thinking.

My next bike is going to be a DH bike and I'd thought I would do the usual coil shock and perhaps get flashy with some titanium springs in the fork but now I'm not sure...seeing how good these new Revs are and how good the RP23 from four years ago was I think I'll probably go frame only and build it with whatever DH air stuff is on the market at the time....realistically with a recent house move this is probably a year or two away, if I was building one now I'd probably still use a coil shock but air forks.

I wouldn't go as far as to say I'm a convert but I welcome the additional choice, air suspension is definitely bridging the gap to coil stuff for gravity type riding.

(You can keep tubeless tyres however!...far too much faff, I'm a serial tyre swapper so breaking beads, cleaning up sealant, playing with compressors etc isn't for me. Thanks to Snakeskin and Exo sidewalls I haven't pinch flatted in years and can happily run 25psi all day long).

deviant

Firstly you need to dismiss the one off air shocks Fox are making for Gwin to race with, they're not production ready or available to you or I....likewise the one off coil Fox fitted to Graves bike for the last EWS race shouldn't really feature in the discussion, these are racing prototypes that may or may not make it to the shop floor.

Gwin's bike

[img] ?1433443013[/img]

and the Float X2 on [url= http://www.wheelies.co.uk/p79195/Fox-Racing-Shox-Float-X2-Air-Shox-Factory-Series-Rear-Shock---Kashima-Rear-Shock-2016.aspx?gclid=Cj0KEQjw3auuBRDj1LnQyLjy-4sBEiQAKPU_vYSmyvdF9NAvkah_7gHDWK3sS2AAxx-XXH-Oq-sR1BYaApwK8P8HAQ ]sale.[/url]

[img] [/img]

Granted, Gwin may have custom internals but twas ever thus in terms of what elite riders and racers have access to.

"buy better tyres?"
Well I tried eh - honestly the fattest I could squeeze into the back of that bike was a Maxxis Advantage 2.1"

"a very poorly made bike that was unsuitable for your needs"
No disagreement from me! : )

"coloured by the fact..."
No doubt, but one useful insight from the whole experience was that, the rear shock itself & mounting hardware really let me down and it was totally transformed switching to a coil. So can you imagine if that boost in performance was coupled to a frame that went in a straight line - ideal! - except there's still not a single rear coil ~110mm bike on the UK market.

Are the runs really only1/3 of the duration of an Enduro descent? How come the downhillers don't ride down the whole hill then?

Not sure if trolling but I'll bite.

The whole hill will have loads of boring featureless fields and access roads....can't really say I'm interested in watching that. The course designers usually take the most technical 3-5 mins of a given mountain and race there, it makes for good viewing for spectators, good racing for competitors and good TV coverage....also short sharp courses allow good line-of-sight marshalling for medical/safety reasons....15 minute long Enduro stages don't have that.

except there's still not a single rear coil ~110mm bike on the UK market.

Thats because no one wants an off the shelf short travel coil sprung bike in big enough numbers to make it worthwhile.

160mm bikes these days are almost as good as 120mm was just a few years back so why would anyone go for less when more is always better?

Also an Air spring can be made to suit 95% of the buying public, no shop wants to carry umpteen different spring rates in umpteen different sizes and umpteen different materials just to find out the one they gave you in the shop isnt what you want on the trail.

You could easily build one up from a frame no too dissimilar

In lots of ways you're right, there is a space for a durable, not weight obsessed mid travel, suss bike that has decent angles and a robust build, off the top of my head:

Bird Aeris, DMR Bolt, Orange 5 all fit that bill pretty effortlessly, and have great support and back-up, are customisable enough by the dealers, or manufacturers, and will do what you want.

But having looked at the Sunn you bought, TBH what were you expecting?

edit

Well I tried eh - honestly the fattest I could squeeze into the back

It's not all about the size though, it's also about how the sidewall's been constructed and what rubber's been used on the tread.

except there's still not a single rear coil ~110mm bike on the UK market.

That's because there's little or no demand for one. The type of riding "most" people want to do on short travel bikes involves lots and lots of pedaling. So light weight and good pedalling traits are desirable in this category. Air is preferable for both of these. You need to go to 160mm + to start seeing bikes where the climbing/descending bias is tipping towards descending before descending becomes enough of a priority that riders will forsake the lightness and adjustability of air for the compliance, grip and resitance towards overheating that a coil provides.

Most of the time what people want isnt necessarily better.

Great discussion here. Tagged for reference.

That's because there's little or no demand for one.

I've always reckoned that it's often most accurate when deciding what bike to buy to start by picking the tyres you need / want to run and get a bike that will suit the tyres.

I like this thinking, don't 100% agree but I do like it

This. By the time you have a designed a bike primarily around reliability and fitted a coil shock to it, there is absolutely no reason to restrict it to 110mm travel, so why would you?

I like this thinking, don't 100% agree but I do like it

Just to say I've got a Turner RFX with 5" and 6" travel plates and I prefer it in 5" guise - it's more playful but still enough travel to soak up most of the hits. Its also rock solid and hasn't needed so much as a bushing change since I've owned it.

Oh and it's got a vanilla RC coil shock with a Ti spring.

Bikes are always a compromise. Luckily I have 3 mountain bikes in my collection after many years of riding. A hardtail for mud and larking around on with 140mm revs. Light but fun. Aluminium SC Solo 140mm air shocked bike for playing on dry trails. Carbon Nomad with Ti Coil Dhx rear and 170mm Lyric forks.
The nomad gets used in the mountains and climbs very well too for a long travel bike. I like coil shocks on it as in terms of reliability and maintenance they are a lot better than air and I ride it in remote locations. I agree air forks are much improved in terms of reliability , however still not quite as good as coil shocks in that you tune and forget. I have never broken a coil spring apart from on a pace fork in the bad old days.

I use dropper reverb posts on my full suss bikes but make sure I have spare seat posts handy when away, as I have found reverbs are still far too unreliable especially in very cold weather. No way would I want a reverb stealth and have all the faff of taking that off. Press fit bottom brackets also seem a retro step to me as is internal cable routing which is really a time trial aero thing.

My shorter travel air shocked sc solo is way more playful and "pingy " than the nomad which with long travel coil both ends is almost like a dh bike on the way down. For exploring new trails the Nomad is much more forgiving when things go wrong, but the solo makes even fairly tame trails fun as the short travel encourages you to jump everything .

I use dropper reverb posts on my full suss bikes but make sure I have spare seat posts handy when away, as I have found reverbs are still far too unreliable especially in very cold weather. No way would I want a reverb stealth and have all the faff of taking that off. Press fit bottom brackets also seem a retro step to me as is internal cable routing which is really a time trial aero thing.

You read my mind.

On a remote ride with out the chance of nipping back to the trail centre carpark id use a spring loaded Gravity Dropper seatpost every time....or not bother and manually raise and lower accordingly.

MTBs are getting like cars where there is so much tech stuff that can go wrong and leave you in the lurch on a decent ride.

Agree with your thoughts on internal cable routing, mechanics hate it so why are we doing it?!....style over substance yet again, driven by the marketing dept and lapped up by posers.

Agree on pressfit BBs too, simple money saving for the manufacturer who no longer has to spec a threaded tube and ensure it all works, just weld in a smooth tube as the BB which may or may not have the right tolerances and may or may not squeak like a bugger when used....seems to be entirely pot luck as to whether you get a good one!

Oh how the engineering dept must have laughed when the marketing guys at Spesh presented the idea of a flippin' lunchbox in the downtube of the new Stumpy....and how quickly the smiles must have vanished when they realised it was a serious suggestion.

Seriously, bikes should be simple.

Give me good quality suspension, good tyre clearance, brakes that could stop a runaway train and build it from something that wont break within the first few years of abuse.

I can happily do without internal cable routing, stealth droppers, pressfit BBs etc etc....its probably why i like hardtails so much.

cheers for warm welcome & great posts all : )

I just re-read thread and made a tally...I make 5 counts of riders with both air & coil experience choosing coil and 2 counts of riders with experience of both picking air rear shocks

I was half sure I'd also read about an Spec.Enduro rider posting about preferring with a Oilins(sp?) coil rear shock but can't see that post now (deleted?)

Also, it seems like the 2 counts of choosing air over coil were on 160mm travel bikes.

So, on the face of it, it'd be interesting for a magazine (hint!) to run a test, setting up some trail bikes with both types of shocks and seeing how folk get on. I'm not really expecting most mainstream mtb mags to pick up on a topic like this - it's dawning on me that rather than unbiased reviews they're mostly just paid advertorials from manufacturers.

"160mm bikes these days are almost as good as 120mm was just a few years back so why would anyone go for less when more is always better?"

Hmm...the chit-chat about the 2015 Banshee Phantom via bikemag.com is worth a listen:
[url= http://www.bikemag.com/videos/banshee-phantom-2015-bible-bike-tests/ ]2015 bible of bike tests - banshee phantom[/url]

Thanks for the other tips - but I'm still coming back to the 29er, 105mm travel Phantom (with probably a coil shock) as close to ideal for wild-trail, all-day riding. I've read somewhere else about riders having tried 160mm bikes but then coming back down in travel again.

Team Robot has quite a good rant about coil sus on his blog, making the point that 95% of people are riding around with the stock coils fitted which don't suit their body weight.

Air is easier for both the supplier and the consumer.

(And Im writing as someone with coils front and rear).

I'm completely meh about tubeless, so I use tubes. No scam there.