Probably yours is headed for the UK and mine is going who knows where 🙂 I couldn't find Angleterre in the address drop down so opted for Royaume Uni
I had my coil package delivered earlier today.
Probably fit in the next few days.
If it performs well, which I expect it to, then I will order another kit for my new bike.
Rubber_Buccaneer - Member
Probably yours is headed for the UK and mine is going who knows where I couldn't find Angleterre in the address drop down so opted for Royaume Uni
haha nah you're grand, mine is addressed the same way
Now at Charles De Gaulle .......... *waits patiently*
Im thinking of doing my 2017 29er Lyrik from air to coil. Do you retain the existing air topcap for that as well?
Has anyone done a Lyrik yet? Any comments?
Kit is now in the hands of the local postie. Hopefully get it installed tonight
Mine is also out for delivery but I can't see me fitting it before the weekend
...and even than it won't be until after Saturday morning's ride on a rubbishy old air spring 🙂
Installation took me (a cack handed, slow, slightly drunk mechanic) about two hours.....do it on Friday....go for a ride with your new toy.
Boing!
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I'm digging the whole "made in my house" thing, but the contraption really looks made in his house :/.
Won't the spring ping the insides of the uppers, rendering them unusable for future air "downgrades"?
Very possibly, but there's not much you can do about that. Also, that's just what fork parts look like. Wouldn't expect RS stuff to look any better/worse
I don't know. There is a transparent sheet there that goes inside the stanchion to shield it from the spring. I'd hope it will do the job.
The spring is nicely finished and other parts are more functional than beautiful but they do appear to be just that, functional.
I'm looking forward to giving it a go. Fingers crossed the spring rate is right for me
Ah, missed the big transparent sheet, expected collars on the spring.
It's the matte/raw aluminium look of the shaft that's throwing me off, but there's no need for anodizing or polishing as there's no seal on that surface. Fair enough :).
Is legend down the [s]shed[/s] workshop?
I'm digging the whole "made in my house" thing, but the contraption really looks made in his house :/.
Won't the spring ping the insides of the uppers, rendering them unusable for future air "downgrades"?
Every coil I have ever owned has rubbed on the inside of the stanchions, Marz, Foz, Rock Shox....all do it. This one actually rubs the least.... The only way to totally mitigate coil bind would be to go back to his old design whereby the shaft extended all the way along the inside of the coil, with the coil tightly wound around it.
The clear insert seems to work when it comes to protecting the inner stanchions.
I can see why the circlip thing will be a fiddle Tom, it's twice around!
Yeah, that was quite fun. I used some thin pliers to help, don't be scared to bend it/open it up, to get it in - it rebounds to it's original shape well.
I like the design to be honest - once you've got the assembly in, you don't have to remove the lowers to change the spring rate - you just drop the spring in from the top. Which will make life easier if you start hitting the pies.
I just used the finger technique in the instructions- took 30 seconds 🙂
Whole job took 45mins including getting the fork off and on the bike. Really easy to do and what a difference as soon as you get on the bike!
Show off.
Also, it's teh awesomez isn't it?
Now I need a coil for the back, because the monarch feels even shitter than usual now. It used to be that the Reign flattened bumps better at the back than the front, then the front was a bit better after the FAST damper mod and certainly less spikey than the rear....now it's laughable...the front just devours things like they aren't there where as the back spikes massively trying to keep up with it. It's the first time I've had a bike where there has been such a night and day difference between the front and rear performance.
Skillz 8)
Admittedly I had warmed up by swapping over an air shaft on my mates Pike just before 😉
Anyway, I really hope I've made a good recommendation - and you guys aren't going to come and lynch me for recommending something French.
Being French I actually expect it to be really good...... for a short while 😉
Nah it feels cracking on the car park test, exactly what I was after really! Rebound already sorted (I reckon) will see where the LSC wants to go at the weekend but certainly not at all divey (compared to the air) when under braking with the old setting
I really, really rate the FAST damper in combination with it, it really allows you to dial in the compression adjustments - loads of clicks to fine tune it and it's even more noticable with the coil for some reason....I assume due to the lack stiction in the system meaning that I've got a more usable range of LSC adjustment before the fork becomes too insensitive for my weight.
The rebound feels livelier to me on the trail, but not in an uncontrolled deep stroke lurching way - more like a little extra pop off the top for hoping off small trails obstacles.
So much for air being as good as a coil, eh? ****ing progress....pfffft.
#suspensionhipster 8)
Tom_W1987 - Member
Anyway, I really hope I've made a good recommendation - and you guys aren't going to come and lynch me for recommending something French.
Only problem is likely to be my now sky high expectations 🙂
As for buying something French, may as well do it now before there is a couple of week wait to clear customs, few % import duty and a Parcel Force fee of £14 for the pleasure 🙁
otsdr - MemberI'm digging the whole "made in my house" thing, but the contraption really looks made in his house :/.
Won't the spring ping the insides of the uppers, rendering them unusable for future air "downgrades"?
To go back to this question. Future conversion back to air should be absolutely fine. There's a sleeve (of sorts) supplied that will protect the inside of the fork leg, so future sealing seems highly unlikely to be affected
Yes - surely if you're concerned put a few pieces of the heat shrink on spaced along the spring and obviously grease the spring and heat shrink a la boxxers ?
Or pretty much any coil fork I've owned.
Really keen to find out how everyone is getting on
Getting the right spring rate is the issue for me tbh as I run much less sag than recomended
There's a sleeve (of sorts) supplied
and since it should sit static inside the stanchion I expect it to do a fine job. It is something that I will check now and then
Getting the right spring rate is the issue for me
Indeed. Give Richard all your info and trust his experience is all you can do. It would be great to have a selection of springs to swap between and pick the most suitable. Once TF have their kit available maybe that will be an option or at least a FOC/cheap exchange deal
and borrow some acetate from work if it wears out 🙂
I have to admit to total ignorance of what material would be suitable and won't be eaten by grease. Is acetate what I would be looking for?
No idea tbh, but it does look a lot like acetate in the kit!
Due to a scratch, mine already refuse to hold air anyway… hence looking at a spring. I've no easy way of working out what weight spring I need though, because the forks are out of use.
You don't need to know. You just tell him what weight you are, what sag you'd like and what sort of riding you do, and he sorts it from there
Who has the best description of fitting this kit?
Need to decide if I'm capable of doing it myself, or if I should wait for TFT.
If you can do a lower leg service you can fit the kit (and anyone with some hex keys and a mallet is capable of that)
Ta.
What sag did people ask for?
Without my fork working, I can't work out what I was running.
I asked for 21 percent. I got 21 percent, I'm not saying he'll be that accurate for all of you. But here's the thing with the coil, if he's a few percent out either way it will still feel more supportive or more sensitive than your air fork.
Also Kimbers, you don't need to run ridiculously low amounts of sag to get the support with the coil, but if you want 10 or 15 percent sag then I'm sure Richard will do it for you.
Useful answer. Thumbs up.
Think I asked for 23 and got 23 - it's almost embarrassing 🙂
Hi everyone - I've been following this post a while with interest so thought I'd join up...
Just a quick update in that I contacted Tft about their coil conversion and got the following reply:
"E don’t have a coil conversion kit as yet.
It’s been trail tested for the last year or so and will be released at Sea other on April 20th. We will have inventory and be ready to install the kit then."
I've replied to try and get a few more details on what the conversion will consist of, costs, etc. but I'm assuming I'll not get much back. If I do I'll post it up.
How are people getting on with their Crconception conversions? I'm very tempted but worry if the charger damper is going to be effective? Not knowing much about dampers I presume it is set up for a progressive spring rate...
Thanks,
James
The charger damper is a separate issue and in my opinion will work broadly the same with coil or air. Besides, a Pike with no tokens isn't that progressive really, have a google for some graphs. If you do use tokens then maybe think about why you use them before buying a coil replacement.
Done but only ridden around the garden so far. I have about 22% sag and I hope it's not just new kit placebo but I am liking the feel. I have converted a dual position Pike and the weight has increased by 150g which I think is very acceptable. First proper outing will be later in the week at Flyup417 (never been but they had a £20 special offer and I got tempted).
Sweet!
Nahh, you'll have noticed an even bigger difference if you had the DPA model.
Suppose I should wade back in after ride 1 yesterday. Bit sloppy at Innerleithen so not exactly ideal conditions for checking things out but still a couple of definite improvements. Small bump action is certainly better, no seals for my 60kg bulk to fight against. Also noticed that in flat turns and catch-berms I was bracing for the inevitable mid-stroke wallow only to find it never happened. Yet conversely was using a bit more travel when needed as there was no token induced, massive, ramp-up. Seemed like a really good balance, basically what coil setups are known for. The only slight negative was that there is a slight noise from the spring side that is either the spring rubbing on the leg or the base moving up the leg, but it really is the most minor of niggles and I'll just see if the spring needs seated better or just need to get some more grease involved. Looking at a click or 2 extra LSC, but reckon that'll be about it and don't even feel like the tweak is an absolute [i]must[/i]
Definitely happy with the improvement so far, looking forward to riding in slight better conditions!
No noise with mine, at least - not any that I notice..... check to see if it's seated/installed correctly. If it's the base, maybe a rubber washer between the clip ring and the plastic base would dampen it a bit. A bugger tonne of grease might hold it from rattling, if that is what is happening.
My old coil Lyriks used to make quite a lot of coil noise though.
It's not the base, definitely a moving part. If I take the stanchion protector (acetate out it should have witness marks on that will make it obvious if it's spring or the spring seat
Coil bind is endemic in coil forks, shrink wrap or a greased inner tube usually sorts it.
I'm thinking though, could it not be the plastic base plate that holds the negative spring? What's holding that in place when the fork is compressed? I reckon it could rattle around a little if there's too little grease on it.
The plastic shrink wrap looks like it may stop it from moving up and down, so perhaps you've inserted the plastic wrap to far in.
I don't have my fork to hand right now.
Just sounds like spring rub. The shrink wrap just gets inserted to the depth to ensure the top of the spring rod sits inside it, its not holding anything in place though, it'd be quickly destroyed otherwise.
That baseplate is what the positive spring sits on as it's base isn't it (page 8 of the instructions shows that it sits on top of the spring rod. although the lower photo isn't obvious that the washer is sitting on the rod, but you never see it again)? It's not just floating around when the fork compresses
Does this mean you can add more oil? And will the conversion make a big difference to a standard fork?
It will make a difference to a standard fork for sure, probably more so than a damper modification.
You add 10ml of oil to the spring side with this conversion, I think it acts as both a lubricant and a hydraulic bottom out - so adding more may increase the bottom out resistance - but I'm not sure.
It's not just floating around when the fork compresses
Nothing is floating around in mine, there is just a little preload as the spring is compressed as I screw in the aircap
I think it acts as both a lubricant and a hydraulic bottom out
I do wonder about this, the lower must be pretty airtight so may be acting as an air spring and more oil would mean more effect. But I have no idea how much effect the volumes involved have
Nothing is floating around in mine, there is just a little preload as the spring is compressed as I screw in the aircap
There would only be something not secured down if you put the washer on the air shaft so it sits on the negative spring (if it even fits), rather than on top of the shaft so it's acting as the seat for the spring
If I remember correctly I fixed a cup containing the top out/negative spring in the bottom of the stanchion then stuck the rod that fixes to the bottom of the fork with a washer for the spring to seat on down the stanchion. This was followed by the spring then the aircap with another insert for the top of the spring. No noises so far but not properly ridden yet...You are making me doubt whether I put everything in the right order. It made sense at the time
Nah that's exactly what I've done too. I'll open it up and have a play with the spring to see what happens. The noise isn't loud, would just rather it wasn't there
I have mine setup with the washer on the tip of the spring rod, to seat the spring. Not sure you guys have done anything wrong.
Anyway, my Pike was my first ever coil fork. I've spent plenty of time on coil 888's, coil Boxxers, Coil old model Pikes, coil Lyriks, coil Totems and coil 36's. All made some kind of small noise.
Not sure how people notice these things whilst they're riding, I'm used to my quite heavy compression tunes making really loud squelching noises though. I can't say I've noticed any noise.
Thinking about it, I can't get my head around why the top out cone that retains the spring is a two piece thing as opposed to attached to the spring collar. I guess the top out spring wouldn't be effective then?
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Doesn't look to be any different from previous Rock Shox designs really....
How long after ordering did delivery take for you guys?
5 days or so
I ordered evening of Monday 23 Jan and it was in my hands on Wednesday 1 Feb
Just to let you know the update from Tftuned from my additional questions:
"I have no idea of the cost, but I won’t be surprised if there’s not much change from £200.
Yes, either home install or workshop install will be options.
We have plenty of damper upgrades, but the coil conversion will be available individually.
There is a feature with the coil conversion that makes it compatible with the charger damper.
The damper has been manufactured with an air spring in mind.. With a bladder in a cartridge, the damper offers very little ramp up in resistance, and there’s no way to alter damper characteristics with oil volume.
The coil conversion kit will include a feature where the ramp up can be adjusted without altering the initial spring rate. It can be a challenge to find the correct spring rate with a straight forward coil in a new Pike or Lyrik, because the last quarter of travel is relinquished a little too easily, so you increase the spring rate and compromise the rest of the stroke.
The new conversion kit won’t suffer with those characteristics."
That just makes me happier that I haven't waited!
^ that is why I previously mentioned the use of tokens. I'm not that heavy nor an especially fast or 'aggressive' rider so I've never wanted to add tokens to a 160mm pike and I am therefore not expecting to be bottoming my coil. I will be interested to see what TF come out with though
Rubber_Buccaneer - thanks for the reply (last page!). I have played with my Pikes no end to get the best setup. I'm currently on two tokens in order that I can run a slightly lower pressure for better small bump compliance but then having a quicker ramp up. I may toy again with going back to a more linear set up soon as the fork will dive through its travel quite quickly. It's hard to balance fork dive with small bump compression (lsc is on minimum damping before you ask) and I like the idea of a nice linear spring rate tuned to my weight. I'm really just jealous of the complete lack of sticktion that my mate had on a set of coils, and the low maintenance is a massive boon - with 3 kids riding time is at a premium let alone pulling my forks apart every 30hrs. I've done it, and I know it's not the biggest job in the world, but I just can't be bothered with it. I'm very much a wash my bike when I get round to it guy... Oh, and I'm on the lighter side (6'3" tall and 90kg) and I've just got that curious coil itch that is eating away at me!
I could really rant about some of this stuff too. I am not good at suspension set up, I really struggle, so when I read stuff like
With a bladder in a cartridge, the damper offers very little ramp up in resistance, and there’s no way to alter damper characteristics with oil volume.
it annoys me a little that it's sort of true but not really. They are suggesting you want your damper to incorporate an air gap that acts as an air spring to give bottom out resistance. I don't think adding oil volume is ever going to change the damper characteristics is it?
You'd need a hydraulic bottom out control (ala Manitou) really. Old open bath forks could use changing oil height to good effect, but that was a lot more oil with a much smaller air gap plus specific oil seals (as well as standard dirt wipers) to handle the increase in pressure. When those blew a seal you really knew about it!
Actually, I believe you can alter ramp up on the Pike on the damper side. Its just a bit of a bodge job by either overfilling it so the bladder expands, or reducing the volume of the area the bladder can expand into - just like a bottom out adjuster on a rear shock.
You could also reshim the damper to give a progressive damper tune.
Im not interested in a progressive stroke until the last inch of travel anyway.
Its a challenge to find the right spring rate for a pike or lyrik if you are choosing from 5 rates, it really isnt with 10.
Specifically, you coukd place some closed cell foam around the bladder essentially pressurising the cartridge. The more pressure, the more bottom out resistance - no? This would also reduce the forks chance of cavitating.
Would think so. Manitou (2 mentions in the day? They're doing well this week) already uses a foam setup instead of a rubber bladder
I thought (and I may be exposing my ignorance if it wasn't apparent already 🙂 ) that having a sealed bladder pretty much eliminated cavitation?
Nope. Something to do with vapour pressue of the oil....its why all rear shocks are gas pressurised and most high end motorbike forks with bladders or IFPs are pressurised as well. Fox and Rock Shox inexplicably dont do this with their MTB forks.
Its likely fine on RS/Fox forks until you start playing around with heavy mid valve tunes.
I can see that. Reminds me of the 'degassing' in Avid's brake bleeding instructions and seeing bubbles appear from nowhere in the brake fluid
Rubber_Buccaneer - Since you said you struggled with setup this was the set up guide I found most useful. It made a massive improvement for me but I'm still looking for a little more! There's some nice graphs and explanations in it...
http://nsmb.com/rock-shox-tuning-camp/
I think the other thing is that my last fork was a Bos Deville and it just felt nicer. I can't put my finger on why, but I'm looking to replicate that. It was certainly better on the small bump stuff - whether that is the open bath system I couldn't say but it would be part of it...
Thanks
Well, a coil will cure that.
Now time to try and work out where to souce foa. And what density, and ask around if the shimstacks will need retuning if I pressurize the damper.
Theres some guides on the restackor shim calculator website which indicates that pressurising the fork is quite a balancing act.
http://www.shimrestackor.com/Code/Sample_Applications/Midvalve_Bladder/bladder-perf.htm
Not that I think my setup needs any more bottom out tesistance really, the FAST cart resists hard hits exceptionally well. Kind of feels like it has a lot of anti dive/resistance to low/mid events, but the damping blows off on mid-high events and hardens on big impacts...eg drops to flat.
I just like ****ing about with suspension.
Possibly a daft question but are they 26" or 27.5 specific? Or swappable?
