[Closed] Coil Conversion for the Pike

Nope, but very tempted so just sponging onto your thread. (I've had no reliability issues, I just miss my coil lyriks)

Yeah snap, my old mans coil custom shimmed Fox 36s from 08 are also making me jealous. Bollocks have forks got better, the things are so unbelievably sensitive that they make a pair of 55 Ti's feel horrible.

And they're supportive - and they never go wrong!

*sigh*

The Pikes are going to get SKF seals, the coil conversion and the Fast damper mod to see if I can get them closer to the ancient 36's. The only thing I'm worried about is bottom out resistance, which could be controlled with oil volume in the old Lyrik.

Oh wow, I contacted them - the coil springs are made to measure, eg to exactly emulate your PSI (although they will have more midstroke support and therefore feel harder in the midstroke) and progressiveness (if you want). So they can be wound in a linear or progressive fashion!

🙂

I'm sold! I will put an order down this weekend. Buh-bye air, I'm going full old school!

Do they make anything for 32mm Revelation?

I don't think so Qwerty but you could try asking!

Nothing to really add, other than having bought another DH bike coils are super smooth. The old school 888's on the Demo that was stolen were incredible and made my 34's feel like they were filled with wood!

Air springs have done on leaps and bounds but I still prefer coils. Downside I guess is that they're weighty and a pain to tune.

The spring on this design is quite short! It resides in the lowers and doesn't extend all the way to the top cap. It's not like the full length assembly on my old Lyrik, the weight gain only appears to be 100g or so.

The nice thing is, is that they can closely match your preferred air settings - so it won't be a pain to tune.

It comes out at about the same weight as a 2016 Fox 36! Very respectable for a coil if it is true!

are you talking about this one?

[img] [/img]

fwiw replacing the grease in the lower air chamber with float fluid stopped it for me

still interested in this tho

Pretty cool... Think I'll probably go for it too.

That's the one kimbers, there are a few threads floating around on the net on German and French forums if you don't mind using google translate or trying out your own dodgy German/French.

That little sleeve is to stop it from rubbing on your fork and making it unable to be converted back to air. I thought that was a nice touch.

Anyway, 70 odd quid is a cheaper punt than buying a new fork.

qwerty - Member

Do they make anything for 32mm Revelation?

Standard, u-turn and dual-position springs from Sektors should all work there (possibly depending on model year)

Wow this looks great. Surprised at the price - cheaper than a fork service!

Tom, did you ever do the conversion in the end?

TF Tuned put a chopped down Lyrik coil spring in my Pikes earlier this year after the airspring packed up......vast improvement in performance and feel 😀

Spoke to TF Tuned, they don't have a kit that's fit for public consumption at the moment. To have them do a coversion will cost the price of a normal service [u]plus[/u]£100 - so a bit spendy (but you are getting a new top cap, spring and spring rod). They did however also mention that both they and Push have home conversion kits in the pipeline. Think I'll hold fire and see what appears

....freaking sweet. Air suspension is for the unwashed masses.

[img] [/img]

Getting tired with how much my Monarch moves under weight changes as well, set it up for 25-30 percent sag in the attack position and it ends up 35-40 sat down and 45 when climbing steep terrain, making technical climbs a pain. A coil, with the better midstroke would give more support on steep rocky technical climbs. To get the kind of midstroke support I'm looking for, I need bugger loads of volume reducers in my shock. Which then kicks like a ****ing mule on high speed hits. I want support and a more linear end stroke, thanks. Not what amounts to a 120mm bike because I've stuffed so many spacers in.

We can lose so much weight in the wheels, bars, saddles, cranks and frame these days. If you have a target weight for an enduro bike (say 29-30lb) and the budget, why bother with air, when coil offers better performance?

What if you ride with varying amounts of weight?

E.g shorter rides with no pack and a single bottle v all day Lakes epic with pack and 2 litres of water?

do you change you air pressure for different rides, based on kit?

I'm sure some people would change pressure if there was a large weight difference depending on type of ride.

If I put a riding pack on, it adds about 2-3lb of weight. If I was doing an all day epic I think I'd just bang the preload up on the shock, or better yet, run a coil with a boost valve type job. Or buy a spring one weight (+25lb) higher - still beats having to regularly check your shock PSI - in terms of extra workload.

Anyway, the weight difference is not enough for me to care.

IIRC you have a Reign, right?

To put it bluntly, mine rode like a sack of sh*t with anything even close to 30% sag.

It's quite a high leverage ratio bike that needed a lot of mid stroke support, otherwise it felt like a soggy mess.

I ended up running 20% max on a Float X2 & it was great. Appreciate I race a fair bit, and may ride a bit harder than the average, but the Reign was spot on with less sag.

Now running a similar setup on my Patrol, I think I genuinely don't like RS shocks because the Monarch was amazingly bad with anything less than 30% sag, but the extra sag then introduced the other issues I dislike of running a lot of sag.

I guess it's all personal.

*searches Roots and Rain for Hob Nob*

Hob Nob is pretty quick - he's always miles faster than me when we're at the same races and I'm not completely useless, just very mediocre in a racing context. 😉

Tom, I think you're running way too much sag. Your Reign has a similar linkage progression to my Spitfire, 3.3 to 2.6 vs 2.9 to 2.2, so both in the 20-25% progression region. That ramp up adds compression damping and a stiffer spring rate as you head deeper in the travel, so running 25% sag I'm using the travel nicely but never bottoming out so hard that I feel it run out of travel, and that's with an XV DBair.

I've asked quite a few more knowledgeable people about how to set sag on the back and the best advice I've had is to set downhill bikes when standing, XC bikes when seated and trail/enduro bikes as the average of standing and seated. Obviously sag is only a starting point. If you're running more sag than ideal then it'll sag even more when climbing because there's less anti-squat to hold it up as you get deeper in the travel.

Also, adding volume spacers does not add midstroke support, it actually does the opposite, by increasing the rate at the end stroke you're making the mid stroke relatively softer and you're not changing the midstroke at all vs the initial travel.

Now running a similar setup on my Patrol, I think I genuinely don't like RS shocks because the Monarch was amazingly bad with anything less than 30% sag, but the extra sag then introduced the other issues I dislike of running a lot of sag.

I guess it's all personal.

Cheers Hob Nob, that's interesting to know. The thing is, I like the BB nice and low and the kicked out head angle from running the back softer than the front for steep riding as it creates a nice weight distribution on the bike - going up to 15 percent wont work with my Pikes unless I'm doing a race run. Maybe I could run a Float X2 with 25 percent sag and get a happy medium.

Chief

[img] [/img]

Am I missing something?

Yes, you don't add spacers without reducing pressure or you'll never get into the latter third of the travel. If you want an airshock to feel like a coil you want it more linear, not less.

I get that, so there is no difference, given the same sag values, when more spacers are added? Cheers chief.

So the answer is to lower the spacer count and up pressure, whilst possibly reducing the sag value?

The desire for lower weights has really handicapped forks in the last few years. Huge expense and twiddly dials have been needed to make them fee like coil sprung forks, which is a bit daft when you think about it- just bulk buy some Ti springs! Tbh I think the main reason bike manufacturers like air springs is because you don't have to worry about rider weights when selling bikes; just put the same fork on all sizes and let the rider adjust the air pressure.

I'm hoping the huge amount of R&D being pumped into 3D printed coil springs by the automotive industry will trickle into mtb, as this'll give the option of custom spring rates but with uber low weight

Yes, that's what I'd try.

I think one of the risks with air springs is how stiction makes you think you need more sag - so when comparing side by side with coil springs to get that plush feel the air pressure has to be rather low. But then actually ride the bikes and as soon as you're moving the much greater forces on the shock and fork overwhelm the seal friction easily, plus there's almost no stiction (zero suspension movement requires perfectly smooth ground and no pedalling/pumping forces from above).

I did a ghetto conversion of some old Floats to coils after an internal scratch meant it never kept air pressure. Sooo much better and 100% reliable. Do it.

Out of interest how does the coil conversion work for the negative spring? Do you replace that with a small coil too?

You don't need a negative spring on a coil. It's only there on an air spring to try to cancel out the static pressure causing the equivalent of excessive preload. A coil spring should have zero force at zero travel and then be linear - the negative spring tries to push back against the positive air spring to give you minimal force at zero travel.

This ^ but there will be some form of negative spring just to act as a top-out bumper

Surely that would be a second coil spring in parallel?

Nah, it sits under the glide rings etc so it only comes into play at full extension. Sometimes it's just a bumper, but top outs are just as nasty with a coil spring if you don't have one

E.g.
[img] [/img]

This is an interesting read.

Feeling a bit pleased with myself for seeking out one of the last sets of Coil Lyriks in Europe 4 years ago when I built my meta.

Yeah, I jumped on the Pike bandwagon for my Hemlock, rode them for a while, put my coil Lyriks back in. They were about 50% heavier mind but pretty much crapped on the Pikes performance wise imo. Not just the coil to be fair, I preferred the damper too.

God damnit, this thread is eventually going to hurt my wallet.

So the coil

or

this

http://www.mtb-news.de/forum/t/awk-doppelkammersystem.728967/page-18#post-13323064

it looks to be the same as the ohlins air system and manitou IRT upgrade

My Lyriks I removed the floodgate and I've never once felt they underperformed at all.
Not compared to me anyway.

Just come by some Pikes, so will be interesting to see, they will start their life on the Lyrik bike for direct comparison, before probably going to a HT.

And by the sounds of it maybe getting a coil all of their own.

Northwind - Member

Yeah, I jumped on the Pike bandwagon for my Hemlock, rode them for a while, put my coil Lyriks back in. They were about 50% heavier mind but pretty much crapped on the Pikes performance wise imo. Not just the coil to be fair, I preferred the damper too.

Considering stealing the Mrs' 2010 36 Vanillas this weekend for similar reasons (or even her converted Revs)

Well, this thread confirms my suspicions about bike journos and the industry.

Shimano brakes all over again (totes amazeballz guys - you should all go out and buy them - we won't mention the weak seals and melting rotors).

Don't get me wrong, I think the Pike's a good fork- I went 29er and for now happy enough with teh standard Pike and some spacers. And probably a good allround option with adjustability, etc, and for most people's use- basically the long travel trail bike/#enduro bike is becoming almost the default and lots of them will never see anything harder than a black route... So wanging a coil fork in that probably doesn't make a lot of sense. And if we're the minority that want something different, we're also the minority that have the wherewithal to do something about it...

In fairness my reasons for coil were only partly around performance, they were also ease of maintenance/reliability. You can't muck up servicing a coil and have it start leaking springiness out when you aren't looking...

I think if you're lighter than average you're more likely to prefer coils and if you're lighter or heavier than average you're going to struggle to get great damper performance without a custom tune.

So that negative coil spring is there to slow down the rebound just before the fork fully extends? Wonder why they don't just have a position sensitive rebound damper.

For me there are 2 issues (maybe 3).

Firstly, mid-stroke support. It's getting better (nigth and day compared to my old 32mm Boxxer World Cup) but it still just doesn't do it for me (3 spacers in a 150 Pike).

Secondly, feel. I just prefer the way a coil setup feels over air. Rear shock doesn't feel so important as I'm happy dragging it down the hill but I always feel that things are a bit vague up from the front. This kind of ties in with the 3rd point, they are much more difficult (less likely?) to find a sweet spot for skinny folk - the same inital stiction forces have to be overcome with less weight acting on it

Latest from TF Tuned is that they're hoping to have kits ready in early January

Crconception have an updated full length coil kit now, not sure id bother with a tftuned one seeing as you can get a custom spring rate one.

Unless the tf tuned ones are either cheaper, come in fine increments in terms of spring rate or are made out of ti or like the newer lightweight steel coil springs.

So which joker on here is going to be the firat one to go old school then?

I think you need to go first.

If it wasn't Jan, i'd have been tempted on my Frankenfork i'm working on for my new Fuel EX.

Just trying to decide between the Pike or 34 chassis at the moment.

Tom_W1987 - Member
Crconception have an updated full length coil kit now, not sure id bother with a tftuned one seeing as you can get a custom spring rate one.

So he does! Just looking at his site from my phone, is there any pricing info?

I'm sure TF will do a very good job of theirs tbh. Not convinced I'd be able to come up with exactly what spring weight I actually need

Not convinced I'd be able to come up with exactly what spring weight I actually need

thats something ive been thinking about re the crconception ones

says €135 on the website

http://www.crconception.com/index.php?p=1_10_Preparation-Rock-shox

for pike,yari & lyric

ffs was staring right at the price!

He'll do it based on the PSI, sag and tokens that you run. I'll buy one this month after payday on the 28th, so given the manufacturing time - I guess I can get a review back to you guys near to the end of the first week of December?

That ok?

My Pikes going to end up a proper Frankenfork at this rate Hob Nob, 46mm offset, stealth maxle, fast damper and soon a coil!

Next up, drilling the lowers for bleeder valves.

That ok?

Completely unacceptable, go faster!

I'm slightly put off by the psi/tokens/sag thinking as I feel my current setup is a massive compromise. Hopefully he knows his stuff and adjusts to suit

I'm slightly put off by the psi/tokens/sag thinking as I feel my current setup is a massive compromise. Hopefully he knows his stuff and adjusts to suit

He'll ask for your riding weight as well - but if you look at the charts, for a given PSI the coil has more midstroke and less bottom out resistance.

I'm having an issue whereby given enough support I never, ever use full travel. So I'm going to state a fractionally lower PSI than I run and give him a sag range that is acceptable to me - this should still give me more support and it will decrease my bottom out resistance.

[img] [/img]

Can you guys see a bottom out spring/bumper on the CRConception coil assay?

[img] [/img]

Hi, sorry for the thread hijack, but anyone diy'd bleeder valves (as Tom mentions above)? I'm thinking of having a go at this on my forks as I'm convinced that using the old zip tie down the seal trick can't be good for the seals. Was thinking of drilling just under the top bush, but i've struggled to find aftermarket bleeder valves other than massive moto ones that would look huge. Anyone got any experience? Thanks.

^^^ Hahah you nutter.

Why don't we just crowdsource and crowdfund a franken fork using a mix of Pike parts and ground up new designs using;

* Pike Uppers

* Redesigned lowers with bleed valves - get a factory in Taiwan to knock us up a small batch.

* Titanium coils supplied in 25lb increments, with a hydraulic ramp up control on the spring side.

* Nitrogen charged sleeve for the Pikes charger bladder - along the lines of the one that used to be offered by Avalanche.

Not that I'm brace enough to drill my own fork, but I'd think about using a breather valve like this instead. Would need to see if they can handle rapid pressure changes, but they are designed so that they can even be fully immersed without letting water in

[img] [/img]

Can you guys see a bottom out spring/bumper on the CRConception coil assay?

Middle two pictures there show the bumper.

Slight hijack, but as there's enthusiasts here......

Anyone know why a Pike would feel rough going through its travel? Mine feels horrible even when compared to others that are massively over-pressure for me. Possibly just needing a good bleed? Did one fairly quickly which seemed to make little difference. Possible other tell is that I'm running about 58PSi, but only 4-5 clicks off full-slow for rebound. Possibly a bigger damper issue?

Rough in what way? I've heard that you can overfill the charger damper that can cause it to feel harsh.

Is it packing down? Try faster rebound - tbh, mine was spikey until I had the FAST upgrade installed.

Oh and

[img] [/img]

Mmmmm dual rate springs, how very WRC. It also has an internable adustable hydralic bottom out. woot. Only 5 spring rates available though, CRConception offer 10 spring rates (they've gone to off the shelf spring rates).

[img] /revision/latest?cb=20121205194537[/img]

Vitalmtb are saying that the single crown forks only have a single rate spring though.

legend, I meant a top out spring/bumper - CRConception are saying they it includes one but they're using google translate to talk to me - some of their videos on their youtube show quite a top out clunk.

I think I'm still going to do it.

It's quite strange, if you bounce upon down on them it actually feels like they already have a coil in them and it's rubbing against the inside of the stanchion, like the damper is struggling to smoothly contract and extend.

Will take the damper back out and "hand dyno" it to see if I can replace in the stand. Doing my head in though. Not packing down, doesn't seem to want to react in the first place!

Good point about the top-out bumper! You definitely want something in there

Try the damper seperately from the fork, but maybe bushings or shot air seals - it's that or your forks shat itself and there are bits of metal shearings floating around in the damper.

If it doesn't have a top out bumper, could I put one in? Bit of rubber somewhere maybe?

Also....check to see if you've bent the forks....

😯

Cheers. Seems ok with the damper out, but need to have a proper look at the damper on its own.

Yeah, the current top out bumper is just a conical bit of rubber, even that would work (very crudely). Otherwise you'd need to find room for a proper spring like the one at the top of the page

I believe the forks are straight, but still worth a check 🙁

Where shoult/could I put the conical bit of rubber from the solo air spring in that spring setup?

It would have to go between the bottom seat for the main spring and base plate (that will be held static in the bottom of the stanchion) - that way it'll be compressed when the fork extends. Only trouble is, too big and it'll pull the fork down a bit into its travel

Same position as you see the bumper here (just replace air piston with spring seat)

[img] https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/R4UlSr5pclnXpNen64dCaVTR1gmEjkue8rMhgFSqKNpjlwlMOXJOrrwZ-oBGEmTRdxlJbuLKBzM4ZNZsI6kERQjv_4eJb-aTuY1SYu7gW6jrswK6sJec5mUe [/img]

I can see how it works on the Solo Air Spring, it acts as a bumber between the piston head and a base plate - yeah - is the base plate located somewhere near the seal head?

I still can't visualize it working on that coil assay, I can't see a baseplate anywhere?

Yeah the base plate replaces the seal head. The spring seat (for want of a better name) replaces the piston so the bumper just sits in between the 2 in the same manner. Just thinking, a Sektor probably has the most current setup, will have a look

[img] [/img]

Piston top of the picture, then top-out spring, then seal head

I can see how it works on the solo air model, as the airsaft moves through the seal head doesn't it.

The shaft on the coil assembly doesn't appear to move through anything though, on the rebound I can't see anything to cause any contact or knock out effect. It's just the spring simply compressing isn't it?

I can see like a giant e clip, or ring on the coil assay - is that the base plate?

Not much room to put a bumber in there - other than perhaps a thin rubber washer.

It does move through a guide. The photo above is from a coil RS Sektor and the baseplate that is used is the bit that looks like a seal head . CRConceptions photo shows a very similar setup for the baseplate (seal head replacement) - in the bottom photo its the largest plastic part, with the far end of the shaft being the seat for the spring

[img] [/img]

You recon there's a rubber bumber hidden in that large plastic part somewhere?

If there is it isn't enough! I converted a Revelation from Solo Air to coil. Proper spring worked best but shortened the fork by around 8mm, ended up with a short bumper which is just ok but pretty agricultural feeling! No bumper doesn't work at all, feels horrid. The damper doesn't have a bumper you could just rely on does it?

I don't think there is one in the FAST Charger damper/stock charger damper.

The more I think about it - the more I think that there must be something hidden inside that large plastic retainer thing.....either a big piece of rubber or a top out spring retained by some low friction plastic that can glide along the side of stanchion easily when the fork is neinding loads. What's it for otherwise....seems a bit redundant.