Those of us who've been around for long enough will remember CyB as the first (?) trail centre in the UK back in the early 00s with the portakabins on the opposite side of the road and trails like the Karrimore and Red Bull and I've been an annual visitor from Yorkshire almost every year since as it seems to have a charm about it which over time has grown into an almost anti-trail centre feel as its not full of gnarly dudes shredding off-piste trails etc - its definitely more of an old skool XC ride with a few mildly techy bits thrown in. So it was with a slight bit of disappointment I read about the visitor centre closure earlier in the year but thought I'd take the kids there for a weekend of riding and camping regardless this weekend.
Rolled up to the car park which was always busy to find... it almost empty. 2pm on a Saturday afternoon on the first weekend of the school holidays and the sun was shining and there was literally maybe 20 or 30 cars in the whole car park. At least the bike shop was open (thought that'd closed too) but whereas there was always a hum of activity around the bike shop and cafe veranda, there was a handful of people knocking about and that was it. Similar story out on the trails - met 1 group at the end of the first section and after that, saw 1 other person on the whole of the Dragons Back ride and we were going pretty slow (12 year old who isn't a fan of climbs in tow).
The trails themselves were starting to feel the lack of use too - Big Doug was covered in pine needles instead of its usual stone and lots of the trails, especially Beginning Of The End was pretty over grown.
In know CyB isn't "cool" anymore with lots of people travelling to purpose built trails preferring other stuff locally like Dyfi or maybe the more gnarly bits and pieces of off-piste you can link with trail centre stuff in the borders but I was shocked at just how quiet it was.
Is this what happens when a trail centre doesn't evolve to meet changes in the way a lot of us ride bikes and sticks with pretty much the exact same trails I was riding on a 130mm hardtail with 1.9 tyres 20 years ago??? Given the car park was free to use yesterday and the only thing actually closed was the cafe and visitor centre shop, is a cafe really what draws people to CyB and not the riding? Weird...
Its the former.
It's miles from any significant population centres and there are loads of nearer more off piste-y sites that are more in line with current tastes to where people live.
MTB has changed and FE/NRW has not put money into it to change it. Definitely bike park is similar miles from significant population centres, but isn't struggling is it?
As specialized say - evolve or die.
It's a shame, I have a real soft spot for Coed y Brenin, with it being one of the first "proper" MTB rides I did as a teenager on a rented bike.
Used to pop down on annual spring trips to Snowdonia and it was always a nice day out. I'm surprised it's dropped off as much as it has, as it was always pretty buzzing, even 4-5 years back. I'm also kind of surprised that trail centres haven't had a bit of a resurgence with ebikes being much more common these days. Previously unpleasant and unused climbs around here have become buffed from the ebike traffic!
I really value the concept of the trail centre, as it was definitely my way into the sport back in the early 00s.
Dare I say e-bikes have also opened up a lot of other riding that didn't used to be quite as accessible or appealing for a lot of people, the relative "safety" of a trail centre is now less of a necessity or draw.
I too have fond memories of CyB. A couple of family holidays. A couple of laps with friends.
But that doesn't sustain a business. Being so far from population in the UK means it's hard to keep it filled and a business to make a living.
There's examples such as the efforts at Laggan (community) or Glenlivet (private investment and Crown Estate) where this can work, but then there's also Balblair and Firetower/Mid Argyll, or Fochaber Monster Trails Trails as examples of when being away from people just didn't work, no matter how ace the riding.
You need a full ecosystem, exemplified by Comrie Croft IMO, where biking is central but hugely cross funded by other activities and driven by community at the heart of things.
There's just not enough MTB'ers prepared to pay a Bike Park Wales type fee, and it's too far from civilisation, and it needs more than just 'committed' riders...
Just to make people feel old, it didn't open in the early 00s, it opened in the early-mid 90s. I know cos me and MartynS if this parish went there in '96 on our first ever bikey road trip.
(FWIW, I didn't like it, that was the start of my dislike of trail centres, but I know that's pretty much just me)
I remember it opening as well. My cycle club did a few weekend away trips there during the late 90's. For us, coming across from London and used to stuff in the Surrey Hills, maybe out at Swinley Forest every once in a while, it felt incredible.
After many (many!) years of not going at all, I went back there on my own last year. I'd just got a new MTB and I wanted some trail centre rides to get to know the bike a bit in a relatively safe environment. After some initial confusion that everything was not where it used to be (I only remember the portacabin stuff on the other side of the road), I set off around it and - even though this was before the closure stuff was announced - it all felt very down-at-heel already.
The cafe felt like the last place open in a deteriorating housing estate, clinging on. The car park was only ever about a third full at most. It already felt in decline and the trails were nothing special at all, in fact I felt they lacked any sort of flow.
Fond memories of the place but maybe things have just moved on...?
Llandegla on the other hand always has an atmosphere and a buzz about it.
Went a while back in the late spring and it was similar 20-30 cars in the CP, cafe closed, had a chat with the bike shop owner though and he reckons he gets a steady trade, he told me he's no plans to move on.
Llandegla on the other hand always has an atmosphere and a buzz about it.
Which proves my point. Its trails are inferior (IMO) in the main to CyB. But it's much closer to population.
I felt they lacked any sort of flow.
I feel the opposite but maybe it is my 2015 trail bike. Maybe it makes less sense on a more burly / slack modern bike.
Yeah the whole "build trails far from places so it draws in tourism" definitely had a place but it's a fine balance between that and "build trails where nobody goes". And even the ones which did have a good draw were often 1 competitor away from being very quiet.
I'll be honest, for me it's the south wales/nearby uplifts that mean I've not been back for years, I love cyb but I only make a couple of big trips for riding a year and these days I want to maximise the descending. If I had time and money for, say, a south wales all-uplift trip like I'm doing next month and an alps trip and a fort william trip and a couple of weekenders then I'd definitely add in a north wales uplifts-and-trailcentres trip but it's always going to be like item 5 on the list and for the last 5 years or so I've probably got to 3 or 4. It's just a harder sell, sorry cyb.
I went a few tie=mes in the mid 1990's and the last time I went was when I was made redundant form the Shotton Steel works in 2010, simply it is a long way from anywhere. And living in Gloucestershire there are a lot of places that are easier to get to.
I used to go quite a lot, my first time I was still riding a rigid with cantilever brakes, I remember the second time that my RST fork had seized by the time I reached the end. Now it's just not good enough to warrant such a long trip, I guess the internet also means that it's too easy to find off piste and cheeky trails in various locations that are likely to be closer and just as good riding.
I’m not too sure it’s the middle of no where thing. There are plenty of bike parks in Wales that are doing well and that accessible in reality
I think what people want has changed.
I used to go probably for the first 10 yrs of its life. It was great on short travel ‘old fashioned’ bikes
Then marriage, kids, work came along and I didn’t go for years, probably like a lot of people
I went back this winter on a 160mm travel ebike. Didn’t recognise the place.
The big car park on the wrong side of the road, big building etc
I found it odd. The start of the trails are just awful. It’s almost like they are trying to put you off having fun in the first 1/2 mile with all the awkward none flow slabs.
It also feels like there are small sections of good stuff that are over in 5 seconds linked by minutes of drudge
I so wanted to like it again but didn’t. It’s only about 1hr from where I live too.
Penmachno is a much nicer flowy experience
Interesting. I was at Laggan for the first time in ten years back in April, and felt much the same as you @funkydunc. It was brilliant on my Zaskar, although the rock slabby nonsense was as horrible then as it is now...
I would venture to say that the vast majority of cars in the car park over the years were general visitors who may or may not have been there to ride bikes. Those people will want the convenience of parking, toilets and a cafe. As soon as they half hear a headline saying that the centre is closed, they scratch it from the itinerary. I've been a couple of times in the last few years and still enjoy it, albeit it did feel like a ghost town last month, but I enjoy old fashioned xc and have no wish to ride up fire roads for a descent.
I'm another regular (once a year) visitor, not been this year yet - but it felt like it had reached a steady, lower level of visitors in recent years - and I was actually seeing more groups of eebers there who seemed to be loving it.
Like the comment above, I wonder if the car park is quieter because the dog walk and cup of tea locals have dropped off?
I'll have to pop in this autumn and see how things are. Hope that community group gets somewhere with taking over the cafe.
I suppose in a way it was always planned / inevitable.
The whole idea originally was to develop the MTB industry for the benefit of rural tourism. 30 years on people now go to Wales for the weekend to go mouintainbiking. The original investment's done it's job.
The natural evolution of that is private companies getting in on the act and rather than the government building trail centers where there was a demand for jobs, they've built them where there's a demand for trail centers. BPW is a (long) daytrip from London for example.
The government could pour more money into CyB and the like to keep them trendy but that comes with two problems, firstly you're still competing with privately run centers which mostly have more convenient locations. And secondly you're competing with privately run centers which defeats the objective. It makes sense to grow the market for everyone's benefit as it gives you a return on that investment. But at some point it becomes competition not growth.
Another thing - whenever we talk about this, people refer to Dyfi thriving despite being even further out of the way.
I don't know what their capacity is, but it's quite possible there are still more riders in total at CyB most weekends.
The whole idea originally was to develop the MTB industry for the benefit of rural tourism. 30 years on people now go to Wales for the weekend to go mouintainbiking.
Good point. And many (like me) probably go to North Wales on a holiday with a bit of MTB alongside hiking, swimming & beaches - having found their way around from trail centre trips years ago.
I'm a bit gutted about the demise of CyB to be honest.
Parenthood, busy weekends etc. has meant that weekends away mountain biking are becoming much rarer than they used to be, but we used to make a weekend trip to North Wales at least a couple of times a year.
There was a decent mix to keep up happy & busy for the whole weekend. Llandegla on the Friday while driving past. We'd then stay at the hostel in Trawsfynydd and spend the Saturday at CyB. Sunday we'd go to Penmachno or do the Marin trail.
Living on the edge of the fens, the trails always have plenty to keep me occupied & on my toes - being used to mainly flat swoopy woodland/forest stuff means that these trails centres were enough of a challenge.
I can see if you are coming from somewhere with more technical/varied riding possibilities on your doorstep, they might seem a bit tame.
And, this is probably not the done thing to say, but I'd much rather spend a day at somewhere like CyB or Cwm Carn than Bike Park Wales. Not been there for years though, so maybe I should give it another whirl.
There's a comment above about the start of the trails not flowing and trying to put you off - that is exactly what they are trying to do. They were put there specifically to deter people who would perhaps turn up on a £80 Tesco special and expect some kind of tame woodland paths. The initial obstacles are like mini-qualifiers.
The bro-in-law of a friend of mine lives in that neck of the woods and is/was (I haven't seen him for years) involved in MTB trail design & the general MTB tourism industry.
He was explaining it to us over coffee & cake on the veranda bit of the visitor centre, while we watched a bloke try to persuade his partner that she would enjoy being dragged around the trail centre on her basic Halfords hardtail while he enjoyed himself on his gnarpoon. She fell off 3 times in about 50 yards trying to negotiate those rocky slabs on the MBR, eventually falling off the edge of the trail, picking her bike up & throwing it at him (it was quite an impressive feat) and walking back to the start.
Good point. And many (like me) probably go to North Wales on a holiday with a bit of MTB alongside hiking, swimming & beaches - having found their way around from trail centre trips years ago.
I think it's also helped other tourist industries as well, would all those ziplines, aerial courses (go-ape), and underground trampoline parks have sprung up if trail centers hadn't demonstrated that people would drive to Wales for a slightly tamed version of outdoor adrenaline sports with a car park, cafe and gift shop? You could always go mountain biking, rock climbing or spelunking, they've just lowered the barriers to entry and sold a T-shirt and slice of cake with it.
I think that Coed y Brenin was destined to decline as soon as it moved across the road.
We used to enjoy it but with the presence of eBikes and ignorance they ceased to be fun.
My buddies and I went there a couple of times, and loved it. But that was many years ago. We went again a couple of years ago and I remember being really disappointed. The trails just seemed much less enjoyable than I’d remembered; much less bang for your buck. More pedalling and less grins.
So when we recently went to North wales, we spent our time at Dyfi and Antur instead - which were both utterly awesome - although a totally different experience.
One part of the attraction originally for us was the cafe and the shower facilities, since we sometimes headed for the boat back to Ireland straight from CyB. And right now, im just not sure what is open and what isn’t. So that was also a factor in our deciding to give CyB a miss completely this year.
I've been a regular at Coed y Brenin since it opened, travelling many times a year for long weekends during my twenties. I'd actually argue that it's ideally placed, meaning it's not far from the north west of England, and we often meet our southern and and midland mates there. The area is brilliant for a holiday - it's not far from a beach resort, there is water sports not far, loads of fantastic walking, good road cycling, and miles of miles of XC trails to explore. When I got a family and was going less often and stuggling to ride, it was still an ideal destination for the family as it had so much to do for us all.
Tourism needs to constantly market itself to remind people of the place and convince newer generations to go. When coed-y-brenin first opened it had events, constant articles in magazines etc. Mountain biking has changed and it's not marketed itself to the newer types of riders or to gravel riders.
But I always look at the area and think it's a world class tourist destination, not just for mountain biking, which fails to market itself.
This makes me a bit sad as it's one of the places that allowed my boys to progress as mountain bikers from the ages of 8 upwards.
You could tell it was falling into neglect the last time we were there in 2023. I don't think the trails had seen a mattock since were previously there in 2019.
You could tell it was falling into neglect the last time we were there in 2023. I don't think the trails had seen a mattock since were previously there in 2019.
have been once a year for quite a few years. they suffered from a storm a few years back and it took 2 years to open the final descent on the tawr du. thats not a critisism per-se, when you saw how much damage occured I imagine that this took a large amount of their available trail maintanence hours.
sadly I think riding has changed, not the centre. loads of comments above about it having no flow... I think it has loads. Not all of it I can do, sometimes I'll look back at an awkward section and realise there was a way to pump or double my way through it.
Yes there are some bits of the trail that are connector/filler but they do seem to, for the most part, actually get you somewhere efficiently with the exception of the weird little extra fireroad loops on red bull and dragons back).
I'll be honest, for me it's the south wales/nearby uplifts that mean I've not been back for years, I love cyb but I only make a couple of big trips for riding a year and these days I want to maximise the descending. If I had time and money for, say, a south wales all-uplift trip like I'm doing next month and an alps trip and a fort william trip and a couple of weekenders then I'd definitely add in a north wales uplifts-and-trailcentres trip but it's always going to be like item 5 on the list and for the last 5 years or so I've probably got to 3 or 4. It's just a harder sell, sorry cyb.
Always wanted to go as it's a classic but I only get a few chances a year to travel that far and would find it difficult to avoid BPW, which I love.
I guess I should plan a trip to take in a few of the NW trails to tick them off the lift at the very least? I was scarred by the Marin Trail though which I didn't rate at all (except for the final long descent).
I still enjoy the trails and will continue to keep going.
sadly I think riding has changed, not the centre. loads of comments above about it having no flow... I think it has loads.
I think this too, it's very rewarding and engaging on a shorter travel bike.
Uplifts have limited daily spaces and at £50 a day, can't account for 100% of someone's riding. Does this therefote mean that no.uplift means no riding or is it that CyB is just uncool?
The CyB trails are so much better than those at llandegla.
Llandegla is closer to lots of people and the climb is easy, even on a single speed.
I think this too, it's very rewarding and engaging on a shorter travel bike.
totally agree - although my "short travel trail bike" a 5010 V4, I've just looked up, has the claimed same head angle and 50mm longer wheelbase than Sam Hill's Iron Horse Sunday
Shows how far the tech has "progressed"
simply it is a long way from anywhere.
It's two hours from Manchester, not terrible.
I don't think the trails had seen a mattock since
Some of the trail damage is on bridleways, so it's not starightforward to just carry out repairs.
I'm a bit gutted about the demise of CyB to be honest.
The only change is that the café is currently closed, the bike shop is still there, the toilets are still there, if you never used the café, your experience won't have changed at all. The fact that on a random weekend there are 20-30 cars in the CP tells you it hasn't closed. Talking the to the bike shop owner last time I was there, he's pretty confident that when (not if) new café management is in place, it'll be back to normal again. and he pointed out that the initial idea to have the same agency that looks after the remains of the nuclear plant up the road, be in charge of a tourist facility as well, made little sense...Guess where their priority was always going to be?
This falls into the same doom-loop 'sky is falling in' scaremongering that outdoors sports have always indulged in: 'they' are going to change rules about climbing and access. 'They' are going to down-class BW to stop cycling, 'They' are going to stop river access, 'They' are closing bothies...Same story for the last 30 years or so.
I was there last week, it seemed pretty busy. Considering the torrential rain and 50MPH wind the day before I thought I was going to be on my own on the trails.
Also happened to be speaking to someone who had investigated taking over the cafe, apparently the main reason it is not being taken over is the insane conditions NRW have put on the lease! Like not leaving anything (plates, food, cuttlery etc) in the cafe overnight!
A lot of these trail centres were built with one off grants and then that was that. If they don't keep evolving their offer becomes less and they decline as people don't return.
I'm sure they had wider economic benefits so stopping that relatively small investment was pretty short sighted.
Dyfi is relatively new but seems popular. probably because it is new and modern despite being miles away from anyone.
BPW is constantly updating. to expect numbers to remain or increase depends on the offer.
One thing you note from looking at the NRW page for all the trails (Natural Resources Wales / Coed y Brenin Visitor Centre, near Dolgellau) is that they see it as more of a "Multiuse" trail centre i.e. covering walking, wheelchair access, Orienteering, Geocaching and yes Gravel/MTBing. That is a contrast with lots of other venues where MTBing is pretty much the exclusive focus and other activities are somewhat ignored/side-lined...
I guess that's more in keeping with NRW's vision/expectations for the venue and that 90's style XC trundle-core and gravel is actually what they want, other venues are available if you want more Gnarr an uplifts...
Maintenance etc tends to be the age old problem of "who pays for it". Back to the tourism model, it always ends up being an absolute millstone for the FC while other people take most of the benefits. Parking costs and cafes and such can help that a little but it's still a drop in the bucket, you spend way more for a night's accomodation or even for the petrol to get there. And then it's the golden goose thing, nobody ever wants to pay anything back or contribute as long as the thing's still working but you'll hear all about it if it ever stops. Nobody can afford to pay the pennies to keep it going but they really can't afford to lose it and lose the pounds.
What's really needed is responsible, joined up funding including councils with levy powers and the like, to take back just a fraction of the benefits and give them to the people who actually make it happen, but it just never happens, easy to see why of course.
This may tie in with the "remoteness" but we've had a number of people including myself saying they go (or want to go) there annually as part of a big trip.
We've had nobody chime in to say they are "local" (though looking at the map that is a bit of a stretch) and ride through it every other week as part of a big XC loop for example. They likely won't have been paying to park the car or buying anything from the cafe but those people are very much part of the local trail culture. Are any of those guys and girls lurking here?
We've been over in North Wales the last few days as a family. In that time we have paddled at Park in the Past (and stayed the night).
Then rode the trails at Llandegla, wow, that's a busy car park, although the trails felt pretty quiet despite that. Me and my lad loved the addition of Natural Selection.
I rode over from our campsite near Caernavon to Llanberis via some cheeky trails and then we paddled on the river at The Snowdon Inn on Ted's Canadian canoe and had a great walk up to the skate mines on the quiet side of town.
Yesterday we were near Llanwyrst so I shot up to Gwydr for some off piste fun and a blast down the last trail center descent as it's ace. This morning we will go ride the purple trail before heading home.
I've no idea if we are a typical family but we think there is still a place for trail centres and have used Coed Y Brenin whenever we are in that area and will do again.
I believe that the secret to keeping these places popular is improving the Blue Sections and adding easier lines around the toughest tech features on the more difficult trails to make them more family friendly. We aren't too fussed about facilities although a loo is nice.
By the way, I got a bit of a schooling over at Gwydr yesterday, some tough tech over there 😂
Based on my own experience working with NRW... I'd get used to the idea of TCs in Wales 'dying' or more positively, evolving.
The last major funding in MTB TCs in Wales was in 2009/10, which included grants for BPW to get them started. A lot of it was EU funding, often matched by WAG / Local Council funding, that's never coming back. Someone said above that the TCs had 'served their purpose' which is how I see it too. Wales is not only a destination for MTBers in the UK but from around Europe too. Whilst STWers might prefer the older-school, slower, more technical style of CyB trails, they're not what the majority are after, wanting more aggressive Bike Park style trails, they're much harder to build and maintain, not to mention keep within health and safety rules.
MTB venues aren't an Essential Service and recent history shown that privately run venues are better for the local economy, riders and the venues themselves than publicly run services. Sadly I think for CYB all the points others have made about it being remote and a little dated are true so I don't think it's a viable private enterprise.
NRW are certainly not exempt from the austerity all our public bodies have faced and they're being forced to cut costs year on year. Running somewhere like Cyb with 100Km+ of trails, a large cafe (which somehow NRW manage to run at a loss) etc can't be funded on 20 cars paying £3 each at the weekend. That doesn't mean Cyb has to die, but if riders want it to be well maintained and even improve the best thing that can do is form a group and work with NRW to either adopt or help maintain the trails. This is working with great success in Brechfa which was all but lost to nature until recently, Risca BP which now not only surpasses Cwmcarn's official trail network but is actually part of the fact it still exists in it's current format. It's a simular tale over the border in FOD with the official and unofficial trails in and around Cannop which are better than ever. NRW will offer help and advice and even funding when possible.
It's a simular story with venues that used to be hidden, 'dodgy' off-piste places. Engaging with local riders NRW are heading towards them becoming more legitimate trails with signposts and just enough 'sanity' to avoid really nasty issues for riders and other trail users.
I agree that CyB has been out-competed and mtbing has evolved. The main concern I have is that places with trails for multiple skill levels like this, on public land, should remain open and free to use. That's where bike parks differ, even if some are more affordable than others. Its part of the NRW remit to provide or support recreation, and I know they can't effectively do that any more due to cuts, but that remit still needs to be honoured somehow.
Experienced mtbers might have moved on to bigger jumps, but it's the right of access and recreation that needs to be defended and maintained, whatever some might feel about the quality of the trails themselves.
I used to be a local and would get driven there as a child/drove there regularly as a teenager. Ive always happily paid to park, and IMHO most maintenance should be paid for by the enormous council tax, new tourist tax and so on.
There aren't many places in the world where you have such a big area of well signposted, well maintained, clearly graded trails that anyone can ride for free. For me, it's a nice change from up-down bikeparks but without the hassle of navigation. I'm happy to take my children and novice friends there knowing we'll all have a good time.
I love BPW, Dyfi, the Alps etc - but in population and tourist terms I (and all of us on here) are outliers. CyB has an important role as a hub for fun forest activities, I hope it keeps going.
