[Closed] Clips and Knees

Have you got the cleats aligned in the same way that you put your feet on flats? If you've set both cleats the same then it's possible that the one knee is being held in a small range that it's not used to. Also when you say "not entirely straight" in what way is it different to the other? Heel twisted in or out? Sole of the foot canted to one side?

Another possibility is that you are subconsciously readjusting your feet on flat pedals so they aren't being overly stressed in any one position.

Just use flat pedals, my clipping in days are well behind me, if you have joint issues then clipping in is generally a bad idea.

If you’ve set both cleats the same then it’s possible that the one knee is being held in a small range that it’s not used to.

Yeah, makes sense I used to have the right one slightly offset

Another possibility is that you are subconsciously readjusting your feet on flat pedals so they aren’t being overly stressed in any one position.

Yeah I moved the cleat a long way back now (for 1 short ride) as they weren't entirely great for jumps and drops..I think I was trying to move my feet to feel more secure.

Also when you say “not entirely straight” in that way is it different to the other? Heel twisted in or out? Sole of the foot canted to one side?

Bit of both...a smashed ankle (I remember spent 6mo on crutches) then got it broken again and set by a camp medic. Also, something on my hip I don't remember what I did anymore.

So toes point out when neutral (in a bath) but also the outside of the foot is kinda rolled down.

Just use flat pedals, my clipping in days are well behind me, if you have joint issues then clipping in is generally a bad idea.

Also a possibility... my initial motivation to use clips on the HT was a bit twisted and getting dropped by a FS who could pedal when I was being bounced off ..however since then found a few other places I'm struggling to pedal including a little jump I can keep the speed easily on the run up the full suss so I splashed out on some bargain basement (£20) pedals to have a try. One way or another I'm clearing that stupid jump .. maybe just because the consequences got higher of not though It's not quite as scary as I thought even on jumps..

. so I'd thought of getting some decent DH/Enduro shoes then this knee thing started but it's also been a bad week for my joints in general.

I had this problem on my road bike.

I switched to Speedplay pedals and problem solved as they allow your feet to rotate slightly rather than be at a fixed angle. Loved them.

I stick to flats on my MTB tho.

Which crankbros? What shoes?
Is your pedal shoe combo allowing full float or interference with some and cage essentially deleting the float?
Crankbros are amongst the friendliest pedals for knees so make sure your bike fit is also good. Shoe +cleat+pedal height will be different to flats so assume seat height adjusted accordingly.
Cleat position also important both fore/ aft, side to side and angle.

I might be in a minority here, but in terms of joint comfort I prefer SPDs over flats. With really grippy flat pedals and shoes your feet are pretty much locked into whatever position they got in. Generally you'll automatically place your feet in an ergonomic position, but that's not always the case.

Been on SPDs for the last couple of months, as much as I love flat pedals my knees are happier now with the float

I use Time as they have loads of float and side to side movement also.I hurt my right ankle many years ago and clips made it feel like something was being pulled out of alignment.With a bit of fiddling with the cleats the feeling went away and no probs now for a good few years.An added bonus is that they seem to require no maintenance.

Which crankbros? What shoes?

Pedals are the original CB Doubleshot (they were £20 to try)
Shoes are some ancient mid 90's shimano I had since the mid 90's. (Aim was to give it a try cheap as poss then get a late XMAS pressy) and I wanted something with a platform for drops and jumps.

One spacer under the CB cleat. Clips in no problem.

Is your pedal shoe combo allowing full float or interference with some and cage essentially deleting the float?

Seems decent.. more than SPD as expected.

so make sure your bike fit is also good

Ah, it's a shared HT with the 11yr old so quite short for me... but it was fine with flats. I was doing 75km days including riding round Surrey Hills when I got there compared to a short 15km bimble or two with the clips.

I guess it's worth putting them on a bike that actually fits me though to test.

It might have nothing to do with the pedals though, I have auto-immune issues that cause flare ups in my connective tissues.. and I've been a bit off all week and since the OP my ankle (the one broken twice and has the ligaments in the wrong place) is giving me jip..

I'll take a bike that fits me, has flats and has suspension tomorrow I think 😉 load up on some ibuprofen and see how it goes on the flats

Another vote for Time pedals here. Used to get knee pain with standard Shimano spds, not so anymore. Worth sitting on a workbench/ kitchen worktop and letting your legs dangle naturally if you haven't already to see how your feet naturally want to 'sit' on pedals.

In the past I've used Time & especially Crank Bros for years. They are both great pedals when working and new. But. Both those systems have a pairof bars that is the point of contact with the shoe, both these systems have worn the sole on my shoes creating free play and a rocking of the pedal in use. They caused me knee pains. I switched to Shimano SPDs and Shimano shoes and the pains gone. The contact point feeling was like going from pushing down on a point with the Time & the CB (due to the wear) to pushing down on a platform with the Shimano. I wouldn't buy Time or CB again, the system is fine when new but the wear it places on the shoes isn't great for knees.

Might be worth considering.

As said- I think the most important thing to do first is Sit on bike and dangle your legs - how do your feet naturally sit. Try and set the cleat position so that when pedalling it is in this position. If you can’t achieve this then maybe new pedal/cleat combo or clipless isn’t for you.

The other problem might be that your pedalling muscles are very well developed and your other muscles are weedy. As a result the strong ones are pulling everything out of line so some strengthening of the weaker ones is needed. In the past I’ve found this has been a source of knee pain for me.

I'd say go and see someone who knows about these things. Trying lots of pedals will be expensive. Getting it wrong could leave you with problems lasting weeks or months. If you've got an issue now it may not be helped by different pedals until it heals.

Places that do bike fits should be able to help. STW will probably know one local to you. Cleat position, leg length/shims, foot beds/insoles, float may all be solutions.

I agree with muddyjames on muscle imbalance as that affects me and I do regular physio/pilates exercises to try and combat it.

The dangling the feet doesn't make any sense in my case as my feet are at around 45 degrees whereas when clipped in my feet are at around 80 degrees. Never get any issues with being clipped in though as I have clearly got them adjusted correctly. If you are getting issues then you haven't got them adjusted correctly (obviously) so guessing it is a case of adjusting them before each ride and seeing if better or worse.

I've had pain in both knees for the past couple of years which all started after 2 weeks in whistler. My physio has recommended going to clips to try ease the pain. Going to take a few suggestions from this and try them out!

Hi Steve,

Yup.... It's the clips. I had the same problem.

Turned out the clips had been invented by an ex-teacher and well, you know........... teachers are to blame for everything.

I tried flats as well but had exactly the same problem. (Think it was because my next-door neighbour but two, once went out with a girl who had seen the nephew of a teacher buy a pedal spanner in Halfords.)

The sooner talking or even thinking about teachers is made optional the better.

+1 for seeing a physio/somebody who actually knows what they're talking about. I suffered for years with pain in my left knee, tried various pedals and shoes (didn't get on with Time at all, more uncontrolled slop than float caused as many problems as it solved), went to one of the big names in cycle fitting, etc, all to no great effect, then a few years ago I went to a physio who did cycle fitting (Andy Berry at Spire Healthcare in Cardiff, if anybody's interested), and it took him a matter of minutes to diagnose the problem, a quick test to confirm it,and a short session showing exercises to fix it. Turns out it was nothing to do with equipment or knees, but the muscles in my left arse cheek weren't firing, and thus not stabilising the leg. Without him, i'd still be suffering.

I use Time MTB pedals as they allow quite a bit of rotation. Used to use them for time trials too Recently built up a Scandal with flats and felt really locked in. Had to constantly readjust my foot position to avoid my legs feeling twisted. I'll adapt but the point is it's not clipless, rather the type of clipless as others have stated. Just backing them up.

I was almost ordering a set of Time Speciale 8s last week, but was put off by the supposedly short clear lifespan as well as the pedal durability. One hears nothing but praise on most publications about the Speciale durability, but once you dig for actual user experiences many report issues with the retention bars bending on impacts. I wish they kept the stainless steel wire bars of old instead of the new forged ones.

One thing not often mentioned when it comes to knee aches is shoe-pedal interface stability. Some new school "enduro" style pedals and shoes have a very big interface area, feeling almost as flat pedals under one's feet. I've had knee pains with traditional "lollypop" SPDs and even with AM702 shoes combined with M530 pedals. However, Saint pedals combined with AM701 shoes or now XT M8120 pedals with AM702 shoes give me zero issues. The pedal-shoe interface is so wide with those combos that your knees feel super

You are going to have to spend some time setting them up. Most likely the position of the cleat.

In addition it could also be the saddle height. A purely personal anecdote, I rode with clips for years with no problems at all then I had a bit of a fall and twisted my knee (stupid slow speed sideways tumble - just landed wrong). Switched over to flats while the knee was recovering and then back to clips after about 3 months. With flats my saddle was too high so lowered it and when I went back to clips it was too low and that lead to pain in my other supposedly good knee until I raised it ever so slightly! YMMV

zezaskar - makes a good point about shoe / pedal contact surface area. I have XT 8120 trail pedals on my HT (with the cages cut off) and the current XC7 shoes & the surface area of contact is huge compared to M520 / M540 / Time / CB.

Shimano Trail Wide pedals paired with Shimano Trail Wide shoes is a great combo for a contact point.

jonba

I’d say go and see someone who knows about these things. Trying lots of pedals will be expensive. Getting it wrong could leave you with problems lasting weeks or months. If you’ve got an issue now it may not be helped by different pedals until it heals.

This is a very good point....
More general...

For the Time stuff... eventually my plan was to get a decent downhill pedal.
I'm not that fussed about pedalling efficiency so much as a big supportive feeling platform when I land. I'm too old to get used to landing on a XC pedal.. it just feels weird.
I can feel the platform on the doubleshots (which were just to try cheap) but I'd be looking at DH or at least enduro pedals like a mallet DH or the shimano trail/DH.

Some new school “enduro” style pedals and shoes have a very big interface area, feeling almost as flat pedals under one’s feet. I’ve had knee pains with traditional “lollypop” SPDs and even with AM702 shoes combined with M530 pedals. However, Saint pedals combined with AM701 shoes or now XT M8120 pedals with AM702 shoes give me zero issues. The pedal-shoe interface is so wide with those combos that your knees feel super

I'm too much of a whimp to feel comfortable without a big platform anyway. It's scary enough doing jumps clipped in when I can feel the platform.

I’ll adapt but the point is it’s not clipless, rather the type of clipless as others have stated.

Yeah and in my case it can just be other stuff going on with my joints as well.
I took the full Suss out today, loaded up on ibuprofen and gel to my knee but everything is aching a bit now. Plus that knee has a floating bit of torn meniscus in it. A bit of swelling due to my auto immune stuff and it could be being pushed about or something.

Simon_Semtex

Turned out the clips had been invented by an ex-teacher and well, you know……….. teachers are to blame for everything.

Seems a bit unlikely to me ?
Of course if a teacher has said something it must be true, even when facts prove it otherwise.
This is why teachers are used to spread lies and propaganda to children. Someone has to take over from the Jesuits.

Go and get professional help. You've had multiple injuries so no amount of well-meaning advice on here will solve the problem.

I got a road bike fit a couple of years ago because I'm tall and they had an offer on. I'd always suffered a little bit of knee pain on longer rides but shrugged it off as 'need to pedal more to strengthen up'.
My right foot was moving more in the shoe than it should. A couple of slim shims under the insole put it right. Also, my knees were going up and out on every pedal stroke. I'd not thought about the narrower Q factor on road bikes and me being tall means I have wider hips than most.
Now I have the shims and use Candy pedals with the long spindle and washers and no more pain.

You have had injuries, your legs aren't the same as everyone else's. A fit might be useful for your flat shoes as well as anything to do with clips. I really recommend proper paid-for advice so you don't make things worse by riding uncorrected and the additional damage that might cause.

You have had injuries, your legs aren’t the same as everyone else’s. A fit might be useful for your flat shoes as well as anything to do with clips. I really recommend proper paid-for advice so you don’t make things worse by riding uncorrected and the additional damage that might cause.

That's good advice but I'm wary about getting into something expensive or takes too long off the bike.

I should really have the meniscus removed but it's now been like that as long as it was healthy... my shoulder had physio when I had medical insurance but really needs an op and that again stops me riding...the physio did want a MRI or CT scan but like she said it's pretty screwed up inside either way and it works "well enough" so long as I don't raise my arm past vertical.

The flip side of this is cycling keeps everything running "OK". My joints are crap all round and when I don't cycle regularly I struggle to get out of bed and put my own socks on. Sometimes I have to wear a button shirt for example because I can't put on a T-shirt
When I stop cycling for any length of time I not only slip in overall health but I also never quite get back where I was... and ultimately that means living with constant pain that increases a little every time. I'm sure nowhere as bad as WCA but when he wanted to be pain free for XMAS I can understand that.

I'm a bit of a wreck all round so in many ways it's a case of living with stuff. I spent a fortune (like really really nice bike money) getting a crown and though it survived the next crash I lost 2 other teeth so I could have just had it removed.

The trouble with "professional help" is finding someone sport and disciple specific. I've been to physios with my knee problem & they had no idea of what's involved in any aspect of cycling. Someone like a pro cycle coach would probably be better informed in all aspects & in advising you than a run of the mill physio. Finding the right person to get you on the road is like hens having teeth.