[Closed] clipless vs flats

Red or Brown sauce? It's that divisive...

I've rode clips for years, and find them great, however, I did an enduro on Sunday, and think I might get a cheap pair of flats for any more I do. Wet slippy off camber roots and being clipped in is not a great combination.

To quote a thread from the other day...

[quote=JCL]Pick a side and be a dick about it.

I use both types. I'm quite fickle but the general rule of thumb is if I'm riding anything I think I may want to get off the bike quickly (bike parks etc), I'll use flats. More XC style stuff, I'll stick to clipless.

One of each

That too. Big bouncy bikes are on flats by default, HT on clipless by default

Oh I'm having this same dilemma at the moment. I've also ridden times for years now but considering going back to flats now I'm just putting the finishing touches to my new bike. My worry is I've gotten so used to being clipped in I'll be utter rubbish going back to flats. My last crash was on wet roots and I couldn't get unclimbed quick enough to stop it which ended up with a broken arm in 2 places and just over 5 months off the bike, loss of 60% strength and lots of physio 😥

I ride both, however not convinced it makes any real difference which pedal you use when crashing. Many seem to imply that been clipped in leads to more injuries and crashes, my last crash was 6 weeks ago low speed and flat pedals resulted in a fractured elbow!

Just ride with what you feel comfortable

Happy on either. Ridden off-road with spds since they were first released. However, last couple of years, I seem to favour flats. They seem to have improved my skills a bit but I'll often put spds back in in bad weather as the shoes/boots are more weatherproof.

I'm flirting between the two at the moment. I'm happy enough riding proper XC clipped in, but I'm finding the line isn't quite there for racing DH and Enduro for me. It's when it gets nasty and tech I'm finding it a struggle.

I'm not sure it's forcing me to commit to stuff harder, or more than I would with flats, but I do notice a difference in the way I ride sections..

I'm going to persevere for now, and see how I feel. There are benefits to both sides.

Both.

I wouldn't dare ride some of the tech trails I normally ride on flats on my spicy whilst being clipped in. the leg waves and dabs that can save you falling somewhere you don't want to fall at slow speed are invaluable. Whilst I understand that you can do this clipped if all goes to plan, the one time it catches you out could be the worst time to be attached to a bike and tipping towards an edge.

Hardtail is on clips as it gets 'tamer' trails and more distance typically. getting used to it but definitely better on fast and rough then flats on a hardtail, I'm sold for the 'XC' bike (150mm forked BFe).

I rode off road with toeclips for 5 years then SPD's for 20 years. Then I thought I'd give flats a go 2 years ago and really prefer them. I'm just riding wheels on the ground xc so not typical riding for flats but I don't notice any loss of efficiency and I'm planning to stick with them.

It’s probably due to my road racing background, but I’ve been clipped in since I got my first MTB in 1985. Back then I used wide toe clips with the straps left loose, and when SPD’s arrived a few years later I was straight onto them without a moments hesitation. The sound of my shoes clipping in is like a soft warm blankie to me, and I feel I can ride almost anything when clipped in. I do have an old pair of DMR Vaults in the garage though, but they only go on the hardtail when I’m out going out riding with my 4 year old daughter.

I do all my techy jumpy style riding clipped in. If Im not clipped in Ive got less control.

Clips all the way for me. Been on them for 20+ years and haven't caused me any problems apart from the odd, slow speed, dismount. I've done Antur (Red and Blue) on clips and I just feel more in control. Did a day @ FoD recently and forgot my SPD shoes so had to borrow flats - not a pleasant experience. Was OK going down but really struggled climbing as I'm used to pulling up on the pedals as well as pushing down..

I'm on flats these days, used to use clips, not very happy on them now because of a trashed leg. TBH there's not really that much in it, SPDs are probably "better" but not enough to override personal preference.

Best option is to use both and be proficient in both, they've both got advantages and things to teach and you can't make a good call between them til you've got good at both. (most folks "try" the other type for a couple of rides, never really get any good at them, then say they're rubbish)

<controversial> I think many if not most SPD riders could benefit from a few months on flats. Lots of people riding around very stiff and tall, it's not so much that flats encourage good technique, it's that they try and kill you if you do that 😉 This is the weakness and the gift of flats.

Have always ridden flats for both XC and DH. I just love riding whenever I can and I don't feel that clipping in will improve my enjoyment at all.

The way I see it is if I want to go faster uphill I need to improve my strength/fitness and if I want to ride scarier and bigger jumpier stuff I need to grow bigger balls.

Northwind has it.

SPD's let you cheat a bit. Body position (esp foot position) becomes less important on SPDs. I switched to flats about a year ago. First few rides I thought they were try to kill me, then I thought about what I was actually doing with my feet.

I still use SPD's on two bikes but for trail riding I've converted to flats

Flats for me due to
A) I n the day used toe clips.................horrible moved to flats
B) injury to knee make spds painful
C) really not that much in it for power/efficiency with real everyday riders

but use what you like and Northwind has got it right imho

oh get good shoes with flats if you are riding trails and so on not those flimsy skate shoes great for wrapping your foot round the pedal and being at the jumps useless for pedalling anywhere too soft

90% clips for the simple reason that so much of my mountain biking involves road and/or very easy trail sections in between the fun stuff and there is no doubt in my mind that pedalling is smoother and more efficient with clips. I'd ride flats much more often if I lived somewhere with more proper off-road and less on-road.

'foot out, flat out' as they say!

swapped to flats about a year ago also, probably becasue it was cool. wasnt sure at first, feet flying up in the air over the first little jump. but in that time there have been a few critical situations where ive had to bail or dab a foot that would otherwise have been disastrous if clipped in! cant imagine ill ever go back to spds! not full time anyway.

also my new DMR vaults are amazing!

If I intended to race seriously then I'd learn to ride clips because they seem to give a marginal advantage in many situations. I've only ridden flats since I returned to MTBing in 2009 - most people I was riding with then were on clips but we're mostly on flats now - and I do agree that they tend to reduce bad technique because your feet bounce off the pedals if you don't ride them right.

The technique thing also includes pedalling - if you can't pedal smoothly on flats then you're probably doing something wrong. If you're pulling up on clips at any points other than when sudden bursts of extra low rev torque are required then you're probably doing something wrong.

Assuming your technique is decent though, I'd ride whichever makes you most confident unless you're chasing fractions of a second for podium places.

been using SPD's for more than 15 years and have never had a problem with them...back then i had 4 bikes and at least 2 of them ran SPD's. now i only have a FS bike and a commuter road bike...the commuter has SPD's and the FS usually has the flats on but it depends on where i'm riding as to whether a go with flats or SPD's.

Rode clips for years then went to the alps and used flats Now prefer flats on my HT (slackline) and clips on everything else: road, cyclocross

I prefer flats for traction downhill (i can get my foot angle better on flats)

I rode nothing but SPD for years, apart from a few minor flirtations with flats, until getting into DH. I think the point about knowing both, in depth, is true, as both take some time to learn and appreciate.

Learning core techniques, such as manuals, endos and especially bunnyhops on flats forces you to correctly use weight shift and feet position to control the bike. On SPD, it's too easy to keep your weight back and just pull the back of the bike up underneath you.

So, back to the OP, I'd say Clips and (rather than vs) Flats.

Have been riding clipped in (clips and straps and then SPDs, now Times) off road for 25 years. It's second nature to me. I don't think I've ever had an off where the outcome was worse because of them (ignoring that one on the first SPD outing when I toppled into some nettles). Clipping in and clipping out just happens without thinking about it.

I've played about on flats quite a bit and I understand how they can force a rider to improve some techniques. But riding clipped in doesn't preclude you having those techniques. I'm definitely more comfortable on tech stuff clipped in... gives me a sense of commitment 😉

[b]Controversial point:[/b] if you don't notice an efficiency difference moving from clips to flats then you probably weren't pedalling very efficiently in the first place. I've ridden with lots of good and fast riders on flats, but don't lets kid ourselves that you can pedal as efficiently on flats if you've got a good pedalling technique when clipped in. Efficiently enough maybe, but it's not the same.

'foot out, flat out' as they say!

Great Pinkbike article (I think it was there) about how foot out flat out works for flats but in clips you just commit harder and get it right. It's 6 of 1 1/2 dozen of the other really. In clips not had the feeling I was trapped or locked in for years, not struggled to get out when I've needed to and never had an issue with a cheeky dab here or there.

Great Pinkbike article (I think it was there) about how foot out flat out works for flats but in clips you just commit harder and get it right.

I read that article, and tried to apply it to my riding, right now it doesn't happen, but then I've probably been riding them for a month, so I'm hoping it just takes some time.

I'm going to race with them over the next few months too, the proof will be in the pudding, so to speak.

I also wouldn't read to much into the responses on here. I'm conscious that STW has everyone from capable downhillers to super-fit racers to weekend bimblers. Knowing how, where and on what terrain someone rides is important in understanding their pedal preference. Certainly if I had access to terrain with more jumps I'd ditch the clips for flats.

.....even my BMX has SPDs on it...

On the topic of "commitment" - I found that clipped in certainly did raise my commitment level. Whereas before I'd be cautious, and possibly dabbing, now I'm staying with my feet on the pedals.

It took *years* for me to pluck up the courage to clip in on he DH bike.

i`m undecided. in the dry using clips is a no brainer. just more control. you dont have to worry too much about unexpected dabs and you pedal better and have better position on teh bike. it forces you to have your feet up which is a very very good thing.

If i was riding really tech/shore then flats all teh way.

in teh wet i`m not so sure. roots are a nightmare on clips as you need 100% conviction and serious skills.

i ride both. when its gopping i like flats for the foot out safety and just general sideways fun.

being a 100% flat rider for years i`ve definately learnt a new, and massively beneficial, skillset riding clips.

a change is good and keeps you sharp i guess.

being a 100% flat rider for years i`ve definately learnt a new, and massively beneficial, skillset riding clips.

This. Times 100.

Used SPDs for years. On coming back after a long break I fitted combi SPDs/flats (SPD on one side, flat on the other) just to get used to them again.

Serious pain in the arse. They always seem to spin and land flat side up. Going to swap between SPDs and flats depending on ride, unless I can find a good combi pedal which can be flat and SPD on BOTH sides.

unless I can find a good combi pedal

They don't exist. Any combination pedal is a seriously flawed compromise as you've found. Invest in a good pedal spanner instead

Controversial point: if you don't notice an efficiency difference moving from clips to flats then you probably weren't pedalling very efficiently in the first place. I've ridden with lots of good and fast riders on flats, but don't lets kid ourselves that you can pedal as efficiently on flats if you've got a good pedalling technique when clipped in. Efficiently enough maybe, but it's not the same.

I would love to see a decent scientific article that shows the difference - I believe there is a difference but that it's a small one, certainly nothing like is implied by the pro-clip fraternity.

One point I see being raised is that clips let you use your hamstrings because of being able to pull up - I know I already use my hamstrings otherwise why do they ache on climbs and why are they bigger than they used to be? Push forwards and down on a pedal, driving from the hip and you use most of your leg, buttock and hip muscles - just as when running, jumping or lifting heavy things - all of which we evolved to do well (unlike pedalling!)

I think clips make a much bigger difference for really high cadence sprinting where it becomes a difficult challenge for the nervous system to fire the muscles fast enough to keep even contact on flats - with clips you can just concentrate on pushing hard once per leg per rev and let the pedals pull your feet around in circles at 200rpm. I don't/can't spin that fast on a MTB though!

Flats for me always. I have no fault with them as they are all I know and at this stage in life really can't be aarsed with the learning curve of clipless.

Use both. They both have merits in the right places.

When the going gets rocky and bumpy, then SPD's for me. When its twisty but slow and technical, then flats. When it's muddy then flats, when it's dry and fast, SPD's.

Tea, or coffee?
White or red?
salt or sweet?

The other benefit of SPDs which nobody has commented on yet, is that your shoes make a clippy sound when you walk.

SPD's on MTB. Far more control. I can get out of them pretty quick when need be.

Flats on commuter. Don't want to be clipped if in collision with a vehicle which would invariably give far less reaction time than a typical MTB crash.

clips for xc/ local riding in Surrey
Flats for alps, lakes, DH uplift etc.

both have their place. Gee won Cairns on some borrowed 5/10s...they worked because he was dabbing everywhere due to the ice rink conditions. would never have stayed upright in clips..like wise on other tracks clips would be vital..

Flats. Could probably get to the top slightly quicker in SPDs, but with flats I never think about pedals any more. SPDs, I have moments where I'm trying to clip in, and they're generally a distraction.

I prefer the feel of SPD's but I moved exclusively to flats because I was convinced I stood a much higher chance of hurting myself on clips. Unlike most people here, I was happier clipped in on really technical situations where I actually found being attached to the bike to be a disadvantage.

Where I was convinced I was going to get hurt was over balancing while standing still or at really low speeds - Falling sideways down a hill because I could abandon ship quick enough.

Folks might call me stoopid, but I incurred a couple of injuries over the years and decided I didn't want a (perceived) elevated chance of another one. I still miss being clipped in some times, t 5-10's and flats are also awesome, so I just try to think of the positives.

i`m undecided. in the dry using clips is a no brainer. just more control.

Have you ever ridden flats with 5.10s or always in skate shoes? I think there's a big difference! Not that I disagree that clips have their pros downhill, especially with unweighting over long root/rock sections or pedalling in the rough.

I'm too scared of a clipped in accident disaster to try them, plus I'm too lazy to swap pedals back and forth (especially as it can be so greasy here at any time of year), plus when I retire my old flat shoes from MTBing they become my commuting and work shoes - can't do that with cleats clacking about!

both have their place. Gee won Cairns on some borrowed 5/10s..

Minaar went off in the alien trees because he didn't dab..

Hill again on flats looked good through the top section.

and he mostly didn't dab as he is still trying to protect his reconstructed knee.
It's a whatever you want answer you can pick from whatever pedal camp you want to say this is better that is better. People prefer different things, different things work for different people. One is not absolutely better.

I heard comments that the problem with Cairns and clips was that it was so muddy that the clips just got clogged up. Unclip at your own risk 🙂

Last race I did, I passed someone in a timed stage who'd had to stop and find a stick to poke mud out of his spds 😆 You see it all at the knobber end of competition. (I passed 2 people while riding my mud-scooter, right foot was on the ground more than on the pedal. Flat Pedalz For 200th Placez.)

Really not very convinced about "efficiency", other than stiff soles maybe. Usually it's more about peak short power, which is generally less efficient, pulling up lets you blow more energy for diminishing returns.

But what comes out over and over for the dh boys is that with SPDs you can pedal in places you couldn't on flats, and you can just have that moment's relaxation from time to time where flats wouldn't allow it- both big advantages but not ones I think I really see, that's bleeding edge stuff.

Frankly, mountain biking is fundamentally inefficient, we ride around on massive tyres, boingy suspension, bikes probably heavier and more capable than we need, baggy clothes, bags full of kit, gassing and braking, jumping when we should squash, taking the hard line because it's fun. As long as I'm stopping every 20 minutes to talk bollocks with my mates, no amount of SPD shoes are going to make me efficient 😉

Clipless (Times) for me

Except in deep snow. Flat pedals and wellies ftw. 🙂

I use flats on my MTB
- Not confident in technical stuff so like to dab (only ride XC type singletrack)
- Want to develop better technique
- Use it for cycling with the dog and pulling the kids’ trailer so want flats for that
- I reckon they look better…
- Have come off a few times and low speed with no major damage, wouldn’t have wanted to be clipped in for that
- Adjusted my foot position following my Jedi session so feels better. Do still get foot slippage though

I use SPD/flat combo pedals on my road bike
- SPDs for commuting (16 miles each way)
- when I’m tired on the ride home from work its nice to be able to concentrate on pulling up, different muscles worked and focuses the mind
- flat side for when my wife rides it (bike’s small for me so with seat at the bottom she just fits)
- flats for when I use it for local town use (bank, post office, groceries, barbers)

Another advantage that I always forget to mention for SPDs is that on some particularly technical terrain there might simply be no room to put a downward pedal stroke in, so being able to pull up might be the difference between making that awkward rock-step or not. I've been caught out a few times when doing technical climbs with flat pedals.

Clips for me all the way, Alps, DH, XC, Laggan Wolftrax black, local woods, bike packing and road. All on candys (I know road bike on mtb pedals is a rule breakage but I can only have so many shoes before overtaking Imelda Marcos).

I use flats occasionly on family rides and hire bikes when I'm away working, but don't like the unattached feeling. I don't think I particulaly pull up on clips, but they allow a full spin on the crank rather than the push-push stomping of flats.

My 10yr old daughter is on candys now too (her choice), she doesn't understand the "too scared of not getting unclipped" comments 😉

Andy

there might simply be no room to put a downward pedal stroke in,

Been backwards and forwards between clips and flats myself, rode DH for some time so was flats for ages, as my riding changed went to clips but never really gelled. I actually feel I commit more on flats as I am confident I can get my foot off if really needed, in clips I found I would unclip before I needed to to avoid a fall (this was an issue on tech rooty uphills more than anywhere else as a spun out rear tyre would often result in a low speed sideways collapse while clipped in).

I think flats have become more viable in recent years as pedals and shoes have got so much better, whilst clips have not really evolved (as have been pretty well sorted via Shimano for years).

Or did you mean that sometimes because of body position and gear selected you can't get the leverage to get a pedal stroke in with flats but the ability to pull too when clipped in will make it possible?

Yes, this is what I really meant. Thanks 🙂

SPDs for the local loop and familiar territory
Flats for the unknown

I switched to flats about 18 months ago, to try and improve my general riding and jumpy stuff technique but ended enjoying them more than SPD so still use them even when I'm not working on my technique.

When I did use SPD I did like them and got on fine but for whatever reason I am happy enough on my flats at the moment.

I'm not a racer (XC or DH) and not really that competitive when out with mates on a ride so that might be why I'm not too bothered about SPD pedals.

SPDS all the time for me

I can relax my feet, makes an amazing difference to my fatigue levels
I can move the back of the bike around better/ easier than on flats
I like being connected to the bike
I know my foot isn't going to slip off, spin the crank and have the pins try to bite my shin... 😆

I think for most of us, whichever gives the most confidence is the right pedal.

nickc - Member

I know my foot isn't going to slip off, spin the crank and have the pins try to bite my shin...

It really is very rare to lose your footing when riding. Now, getting stabbed by your pedals while pushing the bike round the garage, that's a fact of life.

Used flats for first 15 years of mtbing, changed to SPD a few years ago. Much prefer the SPDs.

Northwind, innit, once was enough, still got a dent in my shin 😆

I've never used clipless and never will. proper peddles all the way. I have no interest in small performance gains or whatever.

You Total Bunch of Mary's!
you are ALL completely wrong FFS!

For Semi-Hex-Cee, Dandy-core tow path bimbling I use two of these:

[img] [/img]

For Lard-core, Woodland Gnarl, Free-Mincing I fix my feet to a couple of these:

[img] [/img]

I ride like a Boss for 72 hours straight without dabbing, and then head to A&E...

stilltortoise - Member
Another advantage that I always forget to mention for SPDs is that on some particularly technical terrain there might simply be no room to put a downward pedal stroke in, so being able to pull up might be the difference between making that awkward rock-step or not. I've been caught out a few times when doing technical climbs with flat pedals.

Plus if there's no space, wouldn't you just back peddle a touch to create space? don't see how pulling up makes that any easier?

Northwind - Member
It really is very rare to lose your footing when riding. Now, getting stabbed by your pedals while pushing the bike round the garage, that's a fact of life.

There is a blog over on the tweeks cycles blog page about this very subject, worth a read due to the context of this thread.
http://www.tweekscycles.com/blog/cycle/product-news/mountain-bike-product-news/clipless-vs-flat-mountain-bike-pedals-great-debate/

seosamh77 I didn't explain myself very well but thankfully robinlaidlaw translated my post :- ) Basically, it's not about having space or not since, as you point out, if there is space to turn a pedal I can do so clipped in or not. However sometimes the combination of terrain and body position makes a pull on the rearward pedal considerably easier and more effective than a push on the front pedal, more commonly on technical steppy climbs. It may not be good technique, but it's a technique that has kept me moving forward with SPDs that isn't possible on flats.

I rode time atacs for years but am currently happy on my nano tech flats
Not because of any superior skills or science in fact clearly, power transfer is greater clipped in
So clipless are more efficient.
I ride my flats cos I used to be a low skilled albeit enthusiastic rider riding clip less.
After an enforced layoff of over 4 years I have found coming back to my bikes I am an even crappier
Rider on clip less and out of practice which whilst does produce many excellent mid ride exits from
The bike and some real comedy....did lead me to stick flats on, buy some 5 10s and ride.
Result is I occasionally miss having upstroke on long climbs but rarely snd now I don't fall off, ride with far far more
Confidence and therefore have loads of fun.
No current intention of removing flats, I like em!

SPDs on the rigid retro, flats on the Pitch. If you have trouble moving the bike around on flats but not on clips then it's poor technique at fault, not the pedals. Not saying either is better, mind, but having spent years on SPDs and only gone to flats a couple of years ago when I started riding modern FS, I'm in no hurry to go back.

Trying to learn flats after many years on spds... not a great succss so far but couple of things which seem to have helped 1) adjust saddle position bit more forward 2) haven't found sticky soled bike shoes which would fit my feet but 5.10 has also an approach shoe (Guide Tennies) with sticky rubber which fits nicely.

I ride clipped in. Tried flats last year but with an awful pedal/shoe combo. At the first round of the Irish Enduro a few weeks back I forgot my shoes and had to borrow flats and a pair of 5/10s. I was impressed by the grip level and I only had a few moments were my feet came away from the pedal. Managed jumping and tech stuff no problem. Still not sure if it's worth the £100+ upgrade away from clips.

This is what i was trying to highlight

[img] [/img]

I do this fine on flats but on clips i fail (maybe my cleat position needs moving but the angle isn't as good)

Flats for the unknown

Interesting. When I went to Afan a couple of years back, I flirted with the idea of using my flat pedals, but because I wasn't familiar with the place, and hadn't used my flats much, I used my SPDs because I wanted to concentrate on the trail rather than what my feet were doing on the pedals. More a reflection on what I'm used to, I suppose.

I do think I should try the flats a bit more often though, as I think it's beneficial to be able to switch at the drop of a hat.

it will come with practice Trick Disco, most people can achieve the "Curling one out on the back wheel" pose - I know you meant heel dropping too though. With any change you need to step back, slow down and concentrate on it. Sometimes going for a skills ride is the key, ride with a bunch of people who are slower than you/being social and just work on stuff.

If you have trouble moving the bike around on flats but not on clips then it's poor technique at fault, not the pedals.

or, put another way:

Under some circumstances it is useful to be able to pull up on the pedals. You won't be able to do this with flat pedals, so you will need to adopt a different technique 😉

If you have trouble moving the bike around on flats but not on clips then it's poor technique at fault, not the pedals.

or, put another way:

Under some circumstances it is useful to be able to pull up on the pedals. You won't be able to do this with flat pedals, so you will need to adopt a different technique

Under some circumstances it is useful to be able to pull up on the pedals. You won't be able to do this with flat pedals, so you will need to adopt a different technique

You think bunny-hopping is just magic 😉

You think bunny-hopping is just magic

😆 not at all. I can actual bunny-hop on flats no problem, although I've no claims to be great at it. I learnt long before the days of strapping my feet to pedals, although I'd struggle to explain the technique to anyone 🙂

[quote=trickydisco ]This is what i was trying to highlight

I do this fine on flats but on clips i fail (maybe my cleat position needs moving but the angle isn't as good)

I'd be more worried about those trees leaning over if I were you 😉

Used to use SPDs on my hardtails, including the odd race. On my full-suss AM machine using flats, which I prefer. But - combine flats with trainers and it spells disaster... Team up flats with decent, sticky, stiff soled shoes and I can pedal just as well as my SPD (devil pedal!) shod mates.

Did try SPDs on my AM machine once. Just once. Horrid!

But - ride what you prefer and feel most comfortable with, as that's the most important thing. 🙂