[Closed] Chinese "Replica" Frames

I see counterfit goods in the same way I see stolen goods and that is simply illegal.

Eh? Illegal is illegal and that is the end of it. Well then it looks like I don't have to work inside my complex moral code any more because we have a conservative government to make laws that I will blindly follow because they know best.

What utter rot!

When you buy a conterfeit product you have not stolen any material thing like a bike theif has, nobody has lost any money if you were never going to buy an original anyway. Why not claim the classifieds on here wrong as if I buy a second hand frame I'm denying the maker of a sale of a brand new one?

people seem to be frothing at the keyboards about it!

Go and buy whatever you want, no one actually cares. It's the coming on here and actually trying to justify it as somehow morally ok that is annoying people.

Shibboleth - to really make people's blood boil/keyboards all frothy I think you should buy one of each and Crit race 'em both... that way ending this dilemma and providing you with a great means of back-to-back testing which one is better. Not only that, but if you crash one - you've already got a spare! 😀

Post up pics when you get one... or both.

[i]I've said this. Several times. There are lots of crashes in crit races. I don't want to smash a £6.5k bike. Understand?[/i]

Yep, you want to enter Crit races on a bike that you expect others will think is a £6.5k bike, yep, understand you ok.

JonR
I would love to hear that argument in court, you would make my life, I can just imagine the court erupting in laughter at you and your nonsense.

Shibboleth - Member
The Ribble Stealth/R872 is an exact copy of a De Rosa. There seems to be a suggestion that the same company make the mike for De Rosa AND sell it unbranded, or branded Ribble, or whatever else you ask.

So which company makes it/them then?
A respected bike manufacturer (as I said) or a Chinese knock off supplier (as stated by yourself)?

I've mentioned this once or twice or 5 FRICKING TIMES ON THIS THREAD ALREADY, but for the benefit of the hard of thinking like yourself:

I ALREADY HAVE A BRAND NEW CERVELO R5 BOUGHT FROM AN AUTHORISED DEALER!!!

You can repeat that its a bad thing multiple times. Come on then genius - lets have it, why is it a bad thing?

Seriously? We need to have a debate about how cheap knock offs of branded goods are not a good thing? I really don't have time for that right now, but I'll leave with you a couple brief thoughts

1) Don't know what you're getting when you buy. Poisoned baby milk, anyone? Or how about some vodka that will make you go blind? Okay, how about a shoddily built bike frame that might explode when you go over a pothole? (Or might not, you just don't know..)

2) Discourages innovation by designers and manufacturers. Spend millions on R&D, only for someone in China to clean up selling something that looks similar for a massively lower price because they haven't incurred the R&D costs? Nah, let's not bother, we'll just change the colour on this year's model.

3) Devalues the real brand when people don't know what's real and what's fake. I was going to buy some Oakleys, but I had a look at my mate's and the lenses are pretty ordinary looking. I'm not spending hundreds on that crap, I'll get some cheapies from Decathlon. I don't reckon those Cervelo bikes are worth the money, bloke from my neighbour's club had one, the damn thing fell apart.

4) Encourages criminality. Yes it does. My knowledge of chinese frame builders and their involvement in people traffiking is zero, but I know they're knocking out fake bike frames, which is criminal. I'd hazard a guess that the frame maker who decides to put fake decals on their frames is more likely to engage in other nefarious activities than his neighbour who is selling honest, unbranded frames.

EDIT: Sorry, my "brief thoughts" did start out brief, honest!

JonR
I would love to hear that argument in court, you would make my life, I can just imagine the court erupting in laughter at you and your nonsense.

From someone coming out with the blind subservience to the law of a concentration camp guard or hangman I would be happy to "make your life" if I remained an individual still capable of making my own decisions as to what is right and wrong.

So which company makes it/them then?

XPA Cycling of China. They're a very well respected supplier of branded, unbranded, OEM and knock-off bikes. Different copyright and intellectual properties laws over there you see... 🙄

JonR - Member
When you buy a conterfeit product you have not stolen any material thing like a bike theif has, nobody has lost any money if you were never going to buy an original anyway. Why not claim the classifieds on here wrong as if I buy a second hand frame I'm denying the maker of a sale of a brand new one?

You've denied the maker of a similarly priced frame a sale, obviously.

Same as buying a pair of fakeleys denies the manufacturers of £15.00 sunnies a sale.

'Concentration camp guard'?
[img] [/img]
Have one on me.

JonR
keep them coming you are making me smile 🙂
you believe counterfit goods are ok and legal.
maybe if you bought your girlfriend some fake make up and she ended up with a skin disease you could argue that you are making your own decisions. I hope you dont have young children and start buying your powdered milk from China.

we are all individuals but I guess the law is there as a reminder of what is right and wrong, but maybe you could start a campaing to get the law on countefrit goods changed, maybe get the EU to adopt Chinas policies as maybe China has the right idea on this.

You've denied the maker of a similarly priced frame a sale, obviously.

If the same manufacturer sells it naked or painted up, and someone bought the painted one, who are they depriving?

And are you saying its perfectly OK to make a mould identical to an R5 as long as they sell it naked?

[quote=JonR said]
When you buy a conterfeit product you have not stolen any material thing like a bike theif has, nobody has lost any money if you were never going to buy an original anyway.

😯

Are fake Cervelos made of poisonous baby milk??? Have I missed something? Will I get a skin disease?

@edlong

but I know they're knocking out fake bike frames, which is criminal.

Except that in China, they don't see slapping another brands name on their replica frame as wrong, different culture, so to imply they are a bunch of amoral crims for doing so and suggest that they would partake in other naughtiness is a non-sequitur.

They still want to continue to sell their frames, under their own name and to OEMs, so it's in their interest to produce quality items to stay in business, it just so happens that their items are based on/replicas of another design.

I image there are things you wouldn't bat an eyelid at doing, that in some countries would have you locked up, maybe they would also thing you're into human trafficking and a drug lord too eh?

"Different copyright and intellectual properties laws over there you see"

but unfortunately for you, you don't live there and need to comply with British law. 🙄

I like these face things 😆

So how does this 'devaluing the brand' work exactly then?

Punter who normally wouldn't buy a Cervelo buys a Chervelo knock off because it's cheap. Would the punter have bought a genuine Cervelo had the knock off not been available? No. So no sale lost to Cervelo.

That isn't an example of a brand being (not) devalued though.

"Are fake Cervelos made of poisonous baby milk??? Have I missed something? Will I get a skin disease? "

keep up youre falling behind on what is becoming a fast moving thread 🙂

If I were to feed a baby on fake Cervelo S5, would its face turn into a baby robin??

"Different copyright and intellectual properties laws over there you see"

but unfortunately for you, you don't live there and need to comply with British law

but that's a different argument to the one about quality.

there seem to be two concurrent lines in this thread that are getting mixed up.

1> importing a fake frame is illegal in the UK - yes, we all agree it is illegal. whether you want to take that risk is up to the person in question and how you feel about that and it's implications for the brand.

2> the fake frames are a pile'o'sh1t - no, we do not all agree on this and there seems to be lots of intertwining of the two arguments to support personal views on the other one.

1 does not cause 2 and vice versa.

often the 'fake' frames are the same frames or very similar to those that the same factory is selling to OEMs and in unbranded form so to implay they are poor quality because they are fake simply does not follow*

* it [b]may[/b] be true that they are poor quality but there is lots of evidence to support the fact that they are actually decent, and it is not the 'fakeness' that determines the quality.

Aren't most bikes made in China anyway? So the 'cheap' brands are made in exactly the same factories as the expensive ones? Could it be that bicycle 'manufacturers' are in fact simply 'brands' created by Chinese-owned or based manufacturers to sell goods to people in affluent countries for a lot more than they do to those in poorer countries? IE, we're being riped off because we're willing to pay a lot more for a particular 'brand'? Exactly the same situation exists in the clothing industry, so I can't see how the global cycle industry is any different.

Wish I could get a Chinese iPad:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100648407

Isn't 'iPad' a Chinse invention anyway? And that it is in fact nasty Western companies ripping them off, not the other way round?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18669394

the fake frames are a pile'o'sh1t - no, we do not all agree on this and there seems to be lots of intertwining of the two arguments to support personal views on the other one.

Isn't that uncertainty itself a damn good reason not to buy the fake? The naked, unbranded frame, and / or the fake expensive frame could be badly made deathtraps. All you know for sure is that one of the merchants definitely is dishonest about what they're peddling. Would you rather buy from the person you don't know is honest, or the person you know for definite isn't?

Aren't most bikes made in China anyway?

Yes

So the 'cheap' brands are made in exactly the same factories as the expensive ones?

No

amedias youre reasoned arguments are too reasonable.

we were just getting on to feeding babies fake cervelos.

but i wouldnt touch a fake Pinarello having worked on them and seen the quality.
now it may be that i worked on an odd one and that they are all great but speaking to the importers they were seriously concerned at the number of frame failures that people were trying to claim warranty on only to be told that it's a fake.
as people were claiming the "original" bikes were failing and that will damage the reputation of Pinarello.

XPA Cycling of China. They're a very well respected supplier of branded, unbranded, OEM and knock-off bikes.

I couldn't see anything about knock off bikes on their website. are you sure???

No

Do you have proof of this?

It's just that Merida (Ok, Taiwanese rather than Chinese) make Specialized, and have also made Carrera frames sold in Halfords, which were almost identical. But a lot cheaper. Made in the same factory. I'd imagine the same practice is common in Chinese industries which supply globally.

the importers they were seriously concerned at the number of frame failures that people were trying to claim warranty on only to be told that it's a fake.
as people were claiming the "original" bikes were failing and that will damage the reputation of Pinarello.

THAT's an example of a brand being devalued. Thank you!

Isn't that uncertainty itself a damn good reason not to buy the fake?

not necessarily, a little research on the actual source factory and the other models they produce could reveal that it's actually a billy bargain.

All you know for sure is that one of the merchants definitely is dishonest about what they're peddling

please, please stop with this, if the person selling/making the fake does not consider anything wrong with using another brands image and producing a replica, due to culture in which they operate, then they are not being dishonest.

the fakes are very very very rarely sold under the pretence of being genuine, they know full well it is not, and do not attempt to hide it, they are being no more dishonest than kit car manufacturers that produce 'replica' AC-s and Lambos.

If they were trying to pass them off as genuine then that's a whole different kettle of fish, but I can count on less than one hand the times I have seen that behaviour.

speaking to the importers they were seriously concerned at the number of frame failures that people were trying to claim warranty on only to be told that it's a fake.
as people were claiming the "original" bikes were failing and that will damage the reputation of Pinarello.

now that is a genuine worry, and I don't like this any more than you, but that raises the question about the source of those dodgy frames.

Did the people buy them in the belief that they really really were pinarellos? in which case where from? because most of the Chinese places are pretty up front about the fact they are replicas.

Surely you've got to be pretty dim to expect warranty on something unless bought from the manufacturer or one of its authorised agents. Hell, you'll even struggle to get a warranty on a lot of genuine stuff unless bought through their official channels.

Or was it a case of people being duped by a deal too good to be true and not checking? or even more sinister, trying it on with Pinarello? or even more sinister again, Pinarello exaggerating?

^ all speculation, just widening the viewpoints so to speak...

FWIW, I've seen some chinese sh1t, I've also seen some genunie top end sh1t, and some very well made cheap Chinese stuff.

A big concern for the brands is once these replicas are in the wild and in the 2nd hand market, they have no control over them, and the variable quality and finish can lead to changes in the perception of the brand by the masses, as it then becomes harder for them the differentiate between genuine and replica once they have moved downstream a bit.

Shibboleth - Member

So which company makes it/them then?

XPA Cycling of China. They're a very well respected supplier of branded, unbranded, OEM and knock-off bikes. Different copyright and intellectual properties laws over there you see...

So, Pedalforce then. Like I said.
TBH, I think we might be talking at cross purposes here. 😀

It's just that Merida (Ok, Taiwanese rather than Chinese) make Specialized, and have also made Carrera frames sold in Halfords, which were almost identical. But a lot cheaper. Made in the same factory. I'd imagine the same practice is common in Chinese industries which supply globally.

Sorry, I didn't mean to say that there were [b]no[/b] bike factories that made bikes for [b]more than one[/b] brand. Apologies if my brevity implied that. The post I was responding to seemed to be implying that [b]all[/b] the bikes were coming from the same factories. That would not be true.

That's not a Chinese thing. Plenty of manufacturing in this country will have more than one brand being produced in the same factory, in lots of different industries.

Edlong - I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this but each to their own and all that.

You're right, people don't know what they're getting and that's one of the great unknowns/risks about buying a carbon bike from China. If someone knows what a Cervelo is, they're probably also going to know what they cost and therefore know a £400 Cervelo probably isn't going to be a £400 Cervelo. Is a carbon frame painted up with Cervelo graphics any more dangerous than the same frame in black from the same manufacturer?

Are there more second hand Cervelos sold than new Chervelos? How many fake ones are there in circulation? From a second hand point of view, especially buying over the web I'd say this is a key risk with fakes. At least direct from China you know what you're getting (as in its DEFINITELY fake). Either way if we're talking about costs to Cervelo, surely the second hand market is just as damaging to them as a fake manufacturer.

A degree of common sense has to be applied when buying these sort of things. I've got a set of 20/24 hole hubs at home waiting for some rims and I'm mighty tempted to buy the ones from China that look just like the Reynolds 46's I've got in the Storck. I probably won't because I'm a bit of a unit and question whether they'd be strong enough for me. So I'll probably take the safer option and buy some 'branded' ones.

I personally wouldn't buy a fake - I'd cringe every time someone asked if it was fake or not or how much it cost but then I'm a bit shallow like that.

I'm not sure the OP ever stated that he planned to buy the Chervelo to fool people into thinking it was the actual thing, he just thought it looked nicer that the plain black version.

speaking to the importers they were seriously concerned at the number of frame failures that people were trying to claim warranty on only to be told that it's a fake.

I find this soooo unbelievably unbelievable. NOBODY would by a £400 frame from China and then contact Pinarello for a warranty replacement!

from what I gather its a bit of all the above, but mostly people think that they can convince the importers that they are genuine.
I was completely of the opinion that one was genuine until we stripped it and looked inside the frame...
lo and behold a headset size that we can not get hold of, a fork that was unbelievable (like a child had made it in school)
and the lashed up bits of carbon and glue were just awful.
had a nice paint job though.
but then the bars snapped a week later.

'Fakes' aside,I think the truth is that we are paying a huge premium for certain branded items, when the manufacturers are selling identical products in other markets, for a lot less. So the 'unbranded' items could in fact be the exact same thing as the branded ones. No?

Somewhere, someone s laughing at us.

please, please stop with this, if the person selling/making the fake does not consider anything wrong with using another brands image and producing a replica, due to culture in which they operate, then they are not being dishonest.

the fakes are very very very rarely sold under the pretence of being genuine, they know full well it is not, and do not attempt to hide it, they are being no more dishonest than kit car manufacturers that produce 'replica' AC-s and Lambos.

Yes they are. If you put a Lamborghini or AC badge on a replica you would be breaking the law. Those frames have the exact same decals as the real thing. They are not branded as replicas. They are branded as the real thing.

And this "culture" thing is cobblers. It's illegal in China too, but the courts don't enforce it, at least internationally. If it's a foreign multinational trying to sue a Chinese manufacturer, in China, the court will side with the Chinese business. The fact that they know they can get away with doing it doesn't make them blind to what they are doing though. If you make a fake frame and put all the fake stickers on to make it look like the real thing, you don't need a judgement in a court to tell you that you are being dishonest.

a fork that was unbelievable (like a child had made it in school)

seen some real cr@p on genuine stuff too, a lot of rough stuff hidden on the inside that you don't see unless you go looking or after a failure.

I find this soooo unbelievably unbelievable. NOBODY would by a £400 frame from China and then contact Pinarello for a warranty replacement!

I thought so too.

Until I spoke to the importer.

I find this soooo unbelievably unbelievable. NOBODY would by a £400 frame from China and then contact Pinarello for a warranty replacement!

They might buy a "nearly new" 'bargain' that they thought was genuine from a third party in this country, and not realise they've been stiffed until that awkward warranty rejection conversation.

It happens with watches quite often - someone is really wowed by the expensive premium brand watch their wife / husband bought them, right up until they take it to a dealer for a service..

They might buy a "nearly new" 'bargain' that they thought was genuine from a third party in this country

now who was the dishonest party there, the company selling a replica? or the UK person trying to sell it as the real thing?

can of worms for sure as the 3rd party wouldn't be able to do it without them making it in the first place, but it's not as clear cut as you make out.

Yes they are. If you put a Lamborghini or AC badge on a replica you would be breaking the law. Those frames have the exact same decals as the real thing. They are not branded as replicas. They are branded as the real thing.

it's only illegal if you try and sell it as the real thing. (FWIW they are sold without genuine badges/wheels but most people fit genuine lambo wheels and badges to complete the look) If you sell it as a lambo replica then its not being dishonest.

And this "culture" thing is cobblers. It's illegal in China too, but the courts don't enforce it, at least internationally. If it's a foreign multinational trying to sue a Chinese manufacturer, in China, the court will side with the Chinese business. The fact that they know they can get away with doing it doesn't make them blind to what they are doing though. If you make a fake frame and put all the fake stickers on to make it look like the real thing, you don't need a judgement in a court to tell you that you are being dishonest.

They are being sold with replica stickers of another brand, they are not being sold as the genuine article (very rarely anyway, if you ask one of the sellers they will quite happily tell you it is a replica)

And in some cases it actually is identical to the OEM model, overstock, cosmetic seconds etc.

it's almost as if the west has forced the Chinese (on paper) to agree to their views isn't it... 😉

edlong - Member
Sorry, I didn't mean to say that there were no bike factories that made bikes for more than one brand. Apologies if my brevity implied that. The post I was responding to seemed to be implying that all the bikes were coming from the same factories. That would not be true.

Edlong, why on earth are you trying to argue about something you clearly know nothing about!

There are 2 massive manufacturers in China that make all Giant, Cervelo, Scott, Trek, Ridley, Colnago and Specialized carbon frames, plus literally hundreds of other brands. They in turn use hundreds of smaller manufacturers. It's difficult to grasp the scale of these operations, but we're talking about an area bigger than Northern Ireland, packed full of factories making everything from furniture to fake Ferraris.

You also have to understand that China lead the world in carbon and composite manufacture. There's no reason why a backstreet factory employing half a dozen peasants can't produce a frame of an equivalent quality to Ten Tech - the company that made my real Cervelo.

You can buy a fake Ferrari?

So my question before I go for a ride.

what are you going to buy now you have heard the arguments?

[i] they are being no more dishonest than kit car manufacturers that produce 'replica' AC-s and Lambos.[/i]

I think that's probably the worst excuse I've ever heard for buying cheap knock off Chinese frames. If you want one and can square it in your head, then go for it, run the risk of getting it impounded and losing your money, or have it break or just be unsafe, or just plain old "i cant afford one but i want the cache....". but don't try to justify it with shit like that....

There's no reason why a backstreet factory employing half a dozen peasants can't produce a frame of an equivalent quality to Ten Tech - the company that made my real Cervelo.

No, but sadly the British cycle manufacturing industry s all but dead.

I'm really confused by what you think I've said wrong. I was refuting the implication in an earlier post that all the bikes came from the same factories, making the (perhaps incorrect) assumption that this was meaning the same few factories, i.e. there's a handful of factories from which all bikes, cheap and expensive, come.

You've just said that there are "hundreds of smaller manufacturers".

We appear to agree that all the Chinese frames come from Chinese bike factories. Hard to fight over that, even on here.

This appears to be hostility looking for a non-existent contradiction in order to turn it into an argument.

I think that's probably the worst excuse I've ever heard for buying cheap knock off Chinese frames. If you want one and can square it in your head, then go for it, run the risk of getting it impounded and losing your money, or have it break or just be unsafe, or just plain old "i cant afford one but i want the cache....". but don't try to justify it with shit like that....

I'm not trying to use it as an excuse, FWIW, I would never buy one of those gaudy branded frames (real or otherwise). If anyone asks where my plain jane carbon frame is from I will cheerfully reply 'Cheap chinese carbon thing'

I'm the last person to be a brand snob, I have a 21 year old car that's battered to sh1t and held together with gaffer tape, and I deliberately peel the stickers off most things because I hate the branding.

My point is that producing a replica of something desirable and selling it as a replica (rather than trying to pass it off as the real thing) is not dishonest, especially in an environment where they do not have the same approach to copyright as we do.

I've thought about falsely branded products but in the end I'd be buying to attempt to please others. Not me.

Some years ago, I had to have a load of t-shirts printed up for a promotion. The supplier discretely told us that these were exactly the same as sold by a top designer label (they didn't specify which), who had the t-shirts shipped over from China to Italy, where 'made in Italy' labels were sewn in. The labels themselves were in fact made in Italy. Somehow, this made the deception 'legal'. They were very nice t-shirts. I'd paid less than £3 per unit; the 'designer label' versions sold for over £40.

Caveat Emptor.

The Ribble Sportive & On One SL are built by Pedalforce - a highly respected manufacturer in their own right.

The On-One SL (sic) isn't built by "Pedalforce".
I have no idea who Pedalforce are. I think it's a shop in Huddersfield. But no. And I assume you mean the Planet X ProCarbon. But Pedalforce. No.

(EDIT)
And it's not made by XPA Cycling/Xpace/Legerra either.

Lets behave now. First you say this.

Edlong, why on earth are you trying to argue about something you clearly know nothing about!

and you immediately follow up with this:

You also have to understand that China lead the world in carbon and composite manufacture.

China does not lead the world in both carbon and composite manufacture. Not by any means whatsoever. By throwing around comments like this you make yourself sound like you are talking about things you know nothing about.

I say buy one.
That way there will be either a great thread on how well finished and indistinguishable it is from your genuine frame or one with your broken jaw, collar bone etc.
it's a win win for me.

'Made in the same factory as' and 'made to the same quality as' could be 2 completely different things....

There are 2 massive manufacturers in China that make all Giant, Cervelo, Scott, Trek, Ridley, Colnago and Specialized carbon frames, plus literally hundreds of other brands

*s****

The On-One SL (sic) isn't built by "Pedalforce".
I have no idea who Pedalforce are. I think it's a shop in Huddersfield. But no. And I assume you mean the Planet X ProCarbon. But Pedalforce. No.

(EDIT)
And it's not made by XPA Cycling/Xpace/Legerra either.

Apologies.

Could have sworn I saw this posted by a PX employee somewhere, along with an explanation of the evolution of the PX road frames.

Obviously not.

I think people are missing the point about the de rosa and ribble frames that look the same. I thought that this was due to there being 'open moulds' owned by the manufacturer and licensed to ribble et al. Multiple uses of the same mould and tooling make obvious sense. This is in no sense a knock off from the perspective of the manufacturer, you could argue de rosa are taking the mick presenting their version as a premium product though.

Having said that, I believe 2 bikes from the same mould could be very different if the reseller specified different carbon or resin.

There are 2 massive manufacturers in China that make all Giant, Cervelo, Scott, Trek, Ridley, Colnago and Specialized carbon frames, plus literally hundreds of other brands

Lot of mis-information going on here. There's not just a handfull of manufacturers making everyones bikes:

[i]Ace Bikes, Acoca, Active Cycles, ADK, Boan, C6, Carbon Age, Carbotec, Deda, Giant, GM Carbon, Ideal, Inda, Kenstone, Kinesis, Martec, Merida, Ming Kao, Orbea, Taioku, UCC, Willing, YMA, You Shun.[/i]

There's 24 Chinese maufacturers for you for a start (from BicycleRetailer.com info) and these supply just US based brands, it is not exhaustive, not all make carbon, does not include any that supplly rest of the world, does not include smaller manufacturers - there are many more.

Giant make Giant
Giant make some Trek, rest at their own plants
Merida make Specialized
Giant Taiwan make a lot of Scott.

Carbon frames made in the same factory are all the same

Does anybody actually think that Mr Specialized rings up Mr Merida and say "I want 50,000 FS frames, sort it out for me please when you've got time when you are not making cheap knock-offs". No, the bikes for Mr Specialised will be designed probably in the US to exactly specified parameters - tolerance, layup, materials quality, build quality. They will be prototyped and tested for function and only then will the first run be comissioned under strict quality control. Will Mr Merida make any cheap knock-offs using Specialized specs and technology? Of course not, he is dependant on the Specialized business and wouldn't want to incur their wrath and loss on business. It'll be the smaller manufacturers who will be making these cheaply without the vast knowledge required to make high quality frames.

As for me would I buy cheapy Chinese carbon frames from the big auction site? You bet I wouldn't, I would buy one warrantied from one of the big world manufacturers (like Giant) or at least one that has had major design and quality control input here in the UK (On-One perhaps) so there is support should something go wrong.

chinese fake eggs are popular looks like an egg it just costs 50% to make than a real egg

AWESOME

China does not lead the world in both carbon and composite manufacture.

Amen

And how is a fake with graphics on any different to the same bike without them. Now if the OP was going to sell it on an original I can see an issue there but its visual and nothing else.
Of course he could be like me who takes great pleasure in avoiding paying money if possible and regards those who by an original, when a copy will do the same job, as stupid. Note I didn't say it was the same thing, but will do the same job. Having said that who the F would want to copy something like that Cervelo or even more moronic Oakleys? Look at me, I'm the same as a million other.
Go for it mate although I would go for a blank one as Cervelos are styled by a blind man.

dealt with way too many road customers in the past 2 years who have thought they got a "good deal" buying their frame from alibaba express; a fake Pinarello Dogma, Trek Madone, Specialized Tarmac or whatever it is supposed to actually be?

my experience is usually the customer bringing said frameset to the store, asking my workshop to build it up with some equally dodgy Campag or ZIPP wheels from same website

my mechanics cannot build the bike to required safe quality because the frameset and wheels are very poorly finished and have alignment / tolerance issues. Cabling does not install properly, rear wheel sits skewed in dropout, seat tube angle incorrect for Shimano's front derailleur tolerances, etc.

On some occasions we cannot even install the seat post to the frame because the seat tube has rippled internal diameter not allowing seat post to slide down for clamping up into the workstand!

Customer will then admit where they got the items from, and either attempt to get their money back (good luck?) or find another bike shop willing to take a hacksaw to the items to make them fit together

also had customers bringing their "fake" bikes into the store, asking us to sort out gear shifting or handling issues, only for use to discover all kinds of fitment and alignment problems with our tools, cannot solve problems and send customers on their way with our best wishes for good outcome

would not touch cheap carbon fibre frames or wheels with bargepole.

If you get your hands on one of these cheap framesets, pull the fork off and take a dental mirror and torch, start closely examining the inside of the frameset, then compare to a genuine Specialized / Trek / Giant or even a smaller genuine brand;

its a night/day difference in manufacturing quality and what you see inside the tubing of a cheap frame will actually shock you if you have experience in these matters 😉

always recommend a quality aluminium alloy frameset over cheap CF frameset, any day...

The internal finish of my (genuine) Trek Fuel Ex carbon was rough and ragged as....but never caused any issues.....

On the other hand my HongFu FM066 internal finish is very good, and so far, no issues either.

Am I being cynical when it seems the tales of sub-standard chinese rubbish are mainly told by those who work in the industry....bike shops, importers, etc.....those people who have clear vested interests in rubbishing the competition ....?? Or at least rubbishing this particular type of competition, because its a threat to the (likely) inflated prices we are probably paying for the majority of branded cycling kit at the moment.

If you do your homework, then you can find reputable Chinese suppliers, and it might be naive to think so, but these give the impression they would help sort out any issues post sale. They are after all trying to build their own business. The number of good reports/threads on chinese carbon well outweighs the bad reports you can find on the net.

However, I don't think I'd label up my FM066 or any other unbranded frame with Cervelo or other big brand logos though. And I also don't get that if you don't use your best bike for race day, then when do you use it??

I resent your comment I dont have a vested interest Im just passing on what Ive seen from my experience. you can take it or leave it.
and Im not rubbishing the competition, just pointing out that counterfit frames are illegal.
but yes prices are inflated in the uk, but more to do with the government than the industry.

I said I may have been a bit cynical, not doubting anyone's experience or what they've seen. Counterfeit frames are illegal, but a counterfeit frame does not necessarily mean a rubbish poor quality frame.

All companies need to protect their interests, that all I'm saying, whether that's advising customers of why the genuine thing is worth paying for, or whether its being more secretive about their manufacturing so that its less easily copied or some other means.

Not saying you necessarily did rubbish the competition Sancho, but isn't it a valid stance - seems to be the mainstay of British Politics at least 😉

I have rubbished the frames Ive seen, but cant say thats the same for all the frames and a lot of companies like hong fu manufacture to very high standards.

i just want to know what the OP is going to get Im intrigued

If you buy a blank frame you are (possibly) not breaking the law, but if you buy a branded fake frame then it's illegal. Often big companies such as Nike are more concerned about their logo on an inferior product than the product itself.

There are 2 types of knockoff products:
1 - Exactly the same product but sold illegally out of the factory and
2 - A copy which may or may not be inferior quality and build.

So you pays your money you take your chances. It's morally wrong and illegal to buy fake branded goods, personally I wouldn't do it but it's up to you. I'm not going to preach at you about it. They're a lot cheaper than the genuine ones for sure.

But there is NO guarantee that you're going to get a genuine one and not a cheap dodgy copy regardless of how widely known it is that they come from the same factory.

Tom KP

Wrong and illegal, and you'd cry your tits off you were sold a fake.
You'd be bringing in a fake into the market, you a good few more I guess. that's what causes problems.
Youre supporting the whole fake culture and people actually die when fakes of some kinds get into the market.
When you've bought it, had enough of it will you destroy it, will you flog it on ebay, will it then get passed on to some poor sod for a real one?
And the fact that you own a Cervelo? Ask Cervelo what they think.

Crashing a lot at crits, why how? it happens but not a lot. Use the proper one to get in the points and out of the spills.

This post seems to be going round in circles. Probably because some people have not read important posts.

Mr mtbtomo, has completely missed the point. I am actually wondering if he can read at all. There was discussion over fake items and then you come in with a hongfu comment. Hong fu are not fake the are unbranded you fool. A fake is completely different to a fake for many of the reasons already discussed. Read the posts please!

As an amusing point to this thread, one of my contacts at one of our carbon factories has announced she is leaving today and has cc'd not bcc'd all her contacts in her book.
Quite an eye opener as to who she was making for even for me and certainly pours doubt and stuff on the "x makes for y".
Anyhow.

To summarise:

Poor cyclist who confesses to falling off a lot wants new frame on which to fall off some more.

Asks for opinion about fake branding on Chinese frame. Large response says don't bother, buy a non branded one, your fooling no one and its illegal.

Some say quality may not be as good.

OP rejects any advice not fitting with his own ideas. Laws in the UK only apply if he likes them.

Conclusion: OP really wanted to show off that he could buy a look-a-like branded frame at a cheap price.

I think that just about wraps it up.

Spot on I'd say with that summary.

[img] http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lMAUY2LS5Cw/T0dlae7CKaI/AAAAAAAABIw/v888aC3easA/s1600/Fake+Venge.jp g" target="_blank">http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lMAUY2LS5Cw/T0dlae7CKaI/AAAAAAAABIw/v888aC3easA/s1600/Fake+Venge.jp g"/> [/img]

Mr mtbtomo, has completely missed the point. I am actually wondering if he can read at all. There was discussion over fake items and then you come in with a hongfu comment. Hong fu are not fake the are unbranded you fool. A fake is completely different to a fake for many of the reasons already discussed. Read the posts please!

Why be so aggressive/rude? Some people have generalised that all cheap Chinese carbon frames are rubbish and that they 'wouldn't touch them with a barge pole etc', not just the fakes. Read the posts please!

Alternative thread summary.

OP asks for advice for idea he has is just kicking about.

Near entire population of forum breaks down in to a seething mass fury, comparable to an Orwellian 2 minutes of hate, and spew forth bile about Chinese carbon.

Tales, some apocryphal and some not, are told about the dangers of Cheap frames.

Counterfeit goods are all universally condemned to be immoral and the multinational companies that pollute the third world, use child labour, avoid taxation and work purely for the benefit of making rich men richer are venerated as the gods of Western society whose branding is moral good.

Consensus is blank frames are preferable.

What worries me is what if someone passes off a unbranded/copy or even (never know/not the end of the world in that case) a real factory frame through the backdoor as a high end frame in a secondhand sale?

So for that reason I think it should be bloody frowned upon. As for Chinese carbon frames through direct purchase? Why not? Its the stickering up thats the no-no.

Personally I think the smaller importer/sellers frame/fork prices as being too close to landed-cost of self-purchase to make it even worth your while especially if you factor in the hassle of breakage/lack of warranty support.

The only time I can see it worthwhile to buy direct is if you are 110% certain it is from the same factory/same production line as a T1000/top end frame maker stuff. Then I'd pay £500 for a £1500 retail frame. Only then.

Otherwise why bother with something that 'looks' similar? **** pretending to people. What next? A 330i badge on a 318 Beemer?

What next? A 330i badge on a 318 Beemer?

Nah, a beemer driver usually orders it de-badged (but you can always tell the model by the size and width of wheels and tyres) 😉

Alternative thread summary.

OP asks for advice for idea he has is just kicking about.

Near entire population of forum breaks down in to a seething mass fury, comparable to an Orwellian 2 minutes of hate, and spew forth bile about Chinese carbon.

That's getting a bit closer to the truth Jon. As I said before, this frame isn't really on my shopping list, I'm just interested in what people's thoughts are. If I was to choose something like the S5 replica, it would be down to the fact that it's a brilliant aero frame design with the perfect geometry for crit racing. The only reason to choose a stickered one would be that it looks flippin cool! Cervelo graphic designs at the moment are some of the best in the business.

As for me being a poor rider that crashes a lot, well, luckily (touch wood) I've not got tangled up in any of the big stacks yet, but in the series I race, I've seen 2 big pile ups that have resulted in a lot of very expensive carbon splinters. I don't want my best bike involved in that, so for the crits, I use last season's race bike with Ultegra wheels.

brant - Member

As an amusing point to this thread, one of my contacts at one of our carbon factories has announced she is leaving today and has cc'd not bcc'd all her contacts in her book.

Do you plan an exposé Brant? Or are you going to respect your contact's privacy?... I'm sure there are many that wouldn't... 😉

...And just to keep this debate going in the right direction, what are people's thoughts on this?

[img] [/img]

Hong Fu are one of the most respected of the Chinese manufacturers that supply direct, and this is their latest lightweight road frame and forks.

Obviously, it's blank, but it's almost identical to my genuine R5. I believe Cervelo have patented the "Squoval" tube profile and one or two other features. So would it be perfectly OK to import this bike?

OK, on the face of it, it looks like a very traditional design, but if you know the R&D that went into the original, it's arguable that this is a far more shameless ripoff than simply printing counterfeit logo.

Well, I want one - how much is it?

🙂

The seatstays look like pieces of string. Is there a weight limit on riding one?

The seatstays are identical to the R5... And yes, they are pencil thin. I was told that the stays don't take much structural load - their roll is more triangulation rather than load-bearing. The massive chainstays provide the strength.

I would imagine you could get this frame for around £400, you'd have to email them for a quote...

Look familiar?

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