[Closed] Cheddar Gorge - riding the North / West side?

Heh. So much to discuss. I must pack my book shelf in boxes first...

OK, not leaving til mid day tomorrow, take your time 😉

Up that way tomorrow night, if you want a guided tour

I've got a "multi centre" ride planned for tomorrow, Mendips PM then up to to Wye Valley for the evening. Thanks anyway.

I know the area really well, just not that particular section. Only walk on that side a few times too, and mainly remember cows.

I heard recently that this is the tech side to ride, at least once the gorge top path drops down to Cheddar.

But what about putting a route together?

Is there any real way to get to the high point of that path without a carry up the steps to the left at the top end of the Gorge, from the road shortly before the entrance to Velvet Bottom?

I guess you could start up the Velvet Bottom BW then take the rubbly path the drops down into the woods, but that might be worse than a carry up the steps

I would climb the steep tutors hill road , going through the gate at the high point and turn right. From there you can descend either steep FP (east is best) or climb up overlooking the gorge to the rock traverse and go down the steps toward black rock.

Climbing up out of black rock inevitably involves some pushing, but it doesn't matter really because the descents are worth it.

Thanks Guys. Coffee at Eidelweiss then up the Gorge and steps, repeat coffee then up Tutors to ride the alternative descent I reckon.

Are those steps really rideable upwards......?!

Not the steps, but the Path adjacent to them has been done a couple of times. No one has made it through the rocks half way up though!

Ah, makes sense, that's pretty brutal.

there's no path for a short bit

One way to piss a farmer off I suppose

edric. You'll note that we pretty much acknowledge the cheek of these routes as the first thing at the top of the thread. Still, stating the obvious seems to be your thing, so fill your boots.

For the record, I've experience absolutely no intolerance from farmers over the years of riding Mendip cheeky trails discretely and considerately.

Just once I got a polite moan from the shooters in Rowberrow (when on the DH) and a couple of times from random visitor ramblers who don't understand "local rules".

Big fan of "local rules" here too (if being Bristolian counts...?).

Actually, I've had complaints twice on Shute Shelve Hill from walkers and obviously on Winscombe Drove (which goes without saying).

I was [i]caught[/i] on the alternative Warren Hill Road footpath option (down the steps, after the first gate) and the farmer just asked me to go easy on my brakes as the sounds scared his horses sometimes. Nice guy, said his son was a big rider and I should enjoy myself.

Incidentally, what's the status of the rocky ending to the South/East gorge top path heading north where it comes out opposite Velvet Bottom. As far as I can tell, the bridleway marked on the OS map doesnt really exist on the ground any more, and the footpath is the only real way down now (not to mention a fun ride).

"the rocky ending to the South/East gorge top path heading north where it comes out opposite Velvet Bottom"

It's all a bridleway, impossible on a horse, but a ruddy good tech descent only when dry. I only just rode it top-of-the-gorge-to-bottom no-dabs recently for the first time. Do it today!

Really, didnt realise it was technically a bridleway, though wouldnt want to meet pedestrians on that section. The map shows 2 paths splitting here:

[url] http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=348085&Y=154525&A=Y&Z=115&ax=348085&ay=154525 [/url]

Actually, now i look closer, it looks like both are BWs. Happy days.

Just riding both in the west side, the rocky one us a blast, best taken at speed. Didn't like the steps to tarmac at the end though.

Currently enjoying cake in Edelweiss, and shaking slightly!

Hehe. Cheddar has that effect. The antidote is cider.

There's no run out from those steps. :o)

"I was caught on the alternative Warren Hill Road footpath option (down the steps, after the first gate) and the farmer just asked me to go easy on my brakes as the sounds scared his horses sometimes."

The Bottle Bank is a good trail except there's is currently a really big tree down blocking the most fun bit. We haven't got the tools to dispose of it.

Forgot to say someone has cleared that.

stating the obvious seems to be your thing, so fill your boots.

That riding where there is no path at all will piss farmers off ? ok guilty.A couple of mates who farm get pissed off with people on their land where there are no paths as one said to a walker tell me where you live and I will tramp round your garden.

Some paths are fair game Surely Velvet bottom to Black Rock was a cart track for hauling lead and should have higher status than footpath?.It was the going where there is no path at all bit I was alluding to

tell me where you live and I will tramp round your garden

I want to avoid a slanging match about this Edric, and I understand and agree with your point about not causing a nuisance to people working the land. But remote, empty fields covered under the CRoW and with a RoW (albeit an FP) in them are not private gardens. Not even remotely like them. We would not dream of tramping through someone's private garden, would we!?

Velvet Bottom is funny one. As you point out it's a former cart track through a former open cast lead mine - still quite toxic. But it's toxicity for farming has lead to it lying undeveloped and home to wildlife. But that, in turn, is affected by it's huge popularity with walkers.

I was genuinely surprised when I enquired with English Nature to lead a few cyclists though there, that their response was very negative about "damage caused by bikes", aka 4 tyre tracks overlying hundreds of boot prints. This predjudiced nonsense was pretty much when my concern about riding FPs in the area ended.

I was quoting a friend who farms land near Draycot glider station ,who empty fields or not isnt happy about people on his land .Im not up for a fight either.What needs to happen is get stuff like Velvet Bottom regraded you cant mess it up anyway as its either rock or lead slag you ride on .In an ideal world all outdoor users even the grumpies in red socks and horse riders would work with us in unison to improve access for all mainly by upgrading paths that have obviously carried traffic in the past

velvet bottom would be knackered pretty quickly if you let horses ride on it in the wet, so its never going to be upgraded, and shouldn't be IMHO.

Are you talking about riding the paths on the opposite side of the gorge to the bridleways? As that must be a no no on weekends as its packed with walkers.

The final decent down the steps into cheddar (before heading across the field) would be nice, but as I only ride on weekends it would be massively inconsiderate to ride it.

The final rocky descent off the bridleway down to the road towards black rock is good, a friend broke his ribs riding down the more difficult fork when I did it in the wet, as it was pretty slippy.

I was quoting a friend who farms land near Draycot glider station ,who empty fields or not isnt happy about people on his land

OK, sorry I misunderstood. Is it clear why he complains if no harm is caused? Is he worried about crop damage or theft and is there any basis for this? Is it a historical sense of entitlement to deny access?

IME, by far the greatest cause of erosion damage on Mendip RoWs, or otherwise, is from farm and forestry vehicles, or cattle. Grass, plants, trees, paths and other trails are destroyed and the damage is never made good because the land-owners feel no obligation toward other users. Apparently this OK! By no, cyclist are the devil's spawn. 😈

I think you are also right about the divisions between user-groups, which I think are caused by the differences in classification. Some visiting walkers feel entitled to deny access to cyclists from "their" trails. They are not entitled to deny anything of course, but they can be ignorant. I'm happy to turn a deaf ear when it happens, which isn't often.

I have to honestly say, I would dread the condition of many trails if they were upgraded to BWs. Many BWs become unnavigable by foot and bike in soft conditions. Horses are quite destructive due to their sheer weight.

It is all a mess really. I say just ride bikes where it seems right; be nice and "don't be dick" (quoting CtBM) and all is well.

The worst bit of track used to be from the aerials out onto Blackdown where the farmer used to dump his cattle feed not only chewing up the track but leaving all that plastic from his feed everywhere.Farmers do like to think of themselves as custodians of the countryside!
Think my mate can be grumpy farmer at times .I suppose we might see things differently if we farmed

I suppose we might see things differently if we farmed

Yeah, I'd open a tea room next to the trail and put up signs:

[b]CYCLISTS STOP[/b] (for cake)

Funilly enough he is planning to !!!!!!!!!!!!!

The thing is edric, I don't really care.
Its pastureland. I'll make my own judgement based on perceived risk of hassle and given land use. I understand the 'but you shouldn't be there because its mine' logic, I just disagree with it.Its dogma of ownership, nothing more.

The thing is edric, I don't really care.

Its pastureland. I'll make my own judgement based on perceived risk of hassle and given land use. I understand the 'but you shouldn't be there because its mine' logic, I just disagree with it.Its dogma of ownership, nothing more.

Thing is for farmers, its not just a dogma of ownership (what kind of bullshit phrase it that); it's the way they put food on their table and provide for their families, and they work extremely long and hard to do this.

If you do believe in Dogma of ownership, I hope you live in an commune where anyone can eat/sleep/do whatever they want, and don't own/rent a house or else that would be horribly hypocritical.

Playing devils advocate.

You must be able to understand why they don't like with people who **** with their living, and insist that they know best, even though they more than likely know nothing about farming.

Personally, I ride with the attitude of 'don't be a dick'; and if a sign specifically says 'No mountain bikes' I don't assume I know better.

Dont misunderstand: SO does not care for the archaic legal status of access. He uses his considerable noodle. And he would not dream of interfering with people making a living on the land. Explain who you think flattening a blade of grass affects the farmer driving his tractor in the adjacent field? It would be a better place if more folk used their noodle, no?

Sorry to have started this!

Personally, I used to be a lawyer (mainly land and conveyancing) and know a bit about the very unsound principals that RoW classification and legislation is based on. Also, and more importantly, I'm now 44 years old and love riding my bike. I'll often take a slightly self centred decision, but would never ride like an @rse. If the actual land owner "caught" me, I'd be humble, apologise and do the right thing.

But what I cant abide are vigilante types who think it is their business to try and enforce RoW principles on other people's land. I bet most of them wouldnt interfere if they saw a street mugging, witnessed littering or saw a car doing 31mph in a 30mph limit.

Live and let live I reckon.

Anyway, I had a fantastic ride, 4 descents down into the Gorge, the 2 on the NW side were new to me, and fun. Fair amount of climbing and a couple of pushes.

kSounds like a great way to spend. Day off 🙂

love the blackrock descent, one of my favourite on the mendips. A bit of pain not being able to cut through velvet bottom to get back towards beacon batch though

Cool, didn't know you could ride it that slowly 😉

Did you ride the footpath on the other side of the gorge which drops out pretty much at the bottom or the gorge as that look v. Good when walking it (it has a few hundred meters of stuff as technical as the last 20 of the blackrock descent in the video)

I've always fancied it but due to it needing to be done at dawn imho due to the number of walkers never managed to ride it.

That was my first time down black rock and ridden blind, wasn't expecting that tech fest at the end! just glad i didn't meet many walkers :-). I have never ridden north/west side, apart from warrens hill. Although reading some of the comments above it might be worth a cheeky explore at a time when everyone is at work 😉

Rode that tonight richc. Twice! Quite difficult to pick good lines in a couple of places.

Just kidding videos always make stuff look slow and flat, last 10 meters is where my mate broke his ribs.... Mind you it was very wet and slimy and it was like the rocks had been covered in washing up liquid.

Basically when you were on them if you turned the bars the bike went down, great fun until someone ends up in hospital

I only ride these kinds of rock-garden Mendip trails in dry - mud smeared limestone slabs and blocks are terrifying when wet. It's all in rare perfect nick at the moment. 😀

i can imagine that last section being pretty sketchy in the wet!
Good to here the trails are in good condition, may have to pop over next week for an explore 🙂

Here's the valley trail on the NW side running down to Cheddar.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Much longer than Black Rock, but not as consistently rocky. Some nice options to be taken though.

Yep that's the one - it's ace. At one pinch point there is a medium sized boulder rolled right in the middle that I struggled to get past, and then the two trees just 760mm apart! Quite confusing but interesting all the possible line choices, and consistently steep.

Nice looking bike BTW

Yep, the gap between those trees is the the same width as the Atomlab bars in the second picture.... I need to investigate a line to the left I reckon, to ride it clean.

I walked the NW path with my folks in the wet last year and it was sketchy enough on foot, to the point where we were all struggling to stay upright.

If I was an NT manager, I'd suggest running a mountain bike event down it, then using the entry fees to repair the footpath so it's more enjoyable for walkers, but that could probably only happen in a parallel universe. 🙂

Yeah all these trails are impossibly difficult when wet, by foot or bike. It's the local rock-type. I'm not in favour of sanitisation, just avoiding them when not in condition.

very jealous.

Might have to do an 'early ride' on a weekend as it gets light at 4am :p

By random coincidence, me and lads rode around the mendips today. We took a few different routes than mentioned above, but a nice way to link it all together. All perfectly legal too. [url= http://app.strava.com/activities/58376486 ]http://app.strava.com/activities/58376486[/url]

Aha, I see that my mildly inflammatory comments have got the binary thinkers up in arms.

I'm pleased, because there is a genuine debate worth having here and I think it deserves closer scrutiny.

The point I'm trying to make, as Buzz so eloquently put it, is that you're not looking past the blind compliance of 'you're not allowed to be there'.

Why not?

Because of some right of access to do with droving sheep 1200 years ago says I can only go through the next field? The field thats identical to the one I'm in now? Err. Right.

How does a right of way lessen ones impact on the surroundings? Its preposterous to tie rights of access to the impacts you make on ones surroundings, the rights were established way before modern conservationism came along and were never established to protect poor farmer Fred's persian Lamas, or whatever.

Its a fatuous claim that farmers are custodians of the countryside - They make the countryside what it is as a byproduct of industrial scale food production and it has always been so. They are business men first. Farming and forestry are by far the most damaging activities in the outdoors.

Farmers don't want you in their fields for many reasons, not in the least because you might damage crops or scare animals. BUT - you can damage crops and scare animals just as easily whilst using a legitimate right of way, so, where is the sense?

There is none. Our RoW system is archaic, dysfunctional and not fit for purpose. As such, I choose to largely ignore it and operate to my own, which is based on impact.

Objectively, that may mean you binary thinkers assume I deliberately ride across farmers fields all the time, just to prove a point, but you'd be wrong.

By happy co-incidence the RoW network we now have, after centuries of use, is not half bad for bike riding on the Mendips, but there are gaps. Gaps that can be easily bridged by using footpaths (often to link more good footpaths together!), or by riding across a stretch of field (why would I otherwise want to ride through dull fields?)

At all times, I use my judgement as to what kind of impact I will cause - and I tell you what, hardly ever do I come to the conclusion that I will cause anything so deleterious that I must not ride there.

Velvet bottom is a good example. Its seen by many as sacrosanct, a footpath only, not to be messed with, because of the archaeological heritage associated with its former workings. I understand this. If the dirt jumpers got in there, they could have a field day on the gruffy ground and I would too,because it looks like great fun, but I know that kind of heritage is irreplaceable. So I ride the footpath. The footpath made of solid rock and slag where thousands of walkers boots have worn the surface soils away and erosion caused by my tyres is virtually non-exisitant.

I've rambled a little here, but I hope you see the point.

Ride with thought, see the reality, use your judgement and discard blind compliance.

In other words, don't ride like a dick.

'you're not allowed to be there'.

Why not?

Because you dont own it someone else does?
The world is not some sort of Utopia where we have the selfish right to do whatever we want

I`m not disagreeing about places like Velvet Bottom which is a track of slag and agree that there are many other lanes that would have taken horse drawn traffic years ago and should be rupps or boats.

What I do disagree with is using places where there is not row not even footpath or open access and know how pissed off farmers get by this

I take it you're anti right to roam then.

Kinder Scout anyone?

Littledoughall

All perfectly legal too.

...well, nearly...

Agent 😀

...well, nearly...

Whoops, I thought it was! Which bits aren't? The climb up Barton Drive was the only bit I wasn't sure about and was prepared to turn around, but it was double track the whole way up. Although we did walk the final bit through Hill Farm (coupled with a friendly wave from the assumed owner).

I'd also assumed that the stuff in Rowberrow was fair game as long as you didn't build stuff. There were some glum looking DH boys looking at some destroyed jumps.

Whether it is or isn't a ROW wouldn't change whether I rode it or not, more the circumstances surrounding that path. I like the 'don't ride like a dick' approach. If a farmer asks me to not to be somewhere, I'll happily oblige.

You got it! I think the guy who lives at the top of Barton Drive is a vet, apparently a good bloke (according to Ms AD's spaniel owning father).

Nice route, I might do something similar (and shorter!) tonight. Probably wont pedal up Warrens Hill though - never have, maybe never will!

Might need to investigate what's going on with the destruction in Rowberrow.

FC I imagine. They flattened stuff a year or two back as well.

It is the FC - they have put a very polite sign up, apologising for it! As far as I could see the new tracks in the open bit below the bird box trail and mendip magic have all had their jumps destroyed, not sure about other trails. I'm sure it will all be rebuilt once summer holidays start..

randomly I was talking to the bloke who owns a couple of hundred acres of woodland and fields near me (I know him, reasonably well) and he brought up people riding in his woods/fields, and his issues were:

If you can prove that people have been riding somewhere for twenty years a path can be created/reclassified, at this point the landowner ends up having to support these paths, and as it disrupts their day to day business it increases the cost of managing that piece of land. Which is bad especially in a business where profits are very tight, in part due to people being happy to buy products made by children or using substandard practices.

This can push a piece of land from breaking even, to losing money at which point it has to be sold off, as ultimately the people who own this land aren't charities. This then leads to the issue of who do they sell it to? As believe it or not, not many groups mtb/walkers/horse riders are willing to put hands into pockets to raises the thousands of pounds needed to buy land. So typically the land goes to developers

In his opinion he doesn't want everything turning into housing estates, paintball areas or landfill (all options he has been given, and turned down) so he is prepared to break even, but not lose money.

It will be interesting to see what happens when this generation of farmers die though, as of the few I know none of their children are prepared to work for free, so I should imagine over the next 40 years huge swathes of land will be getting sold off, which should make access interesting.

Just to give someone else's perspective, based on fact rather than assumptions; as everyone knows assumptions are "the mother of all **** ups" 🙂

So why should you care about riding over some else land? Well if you aren't careful, you could be a significant factor making that land unprofitable then the next generation will be riding through a landfill/housing estate. Mind you, why worry as *your* alright, and what difference does one person doing whatever they like make, eh.

Mmm a slags track.....

I understand that if you go north of the boarder then the world is a private utopia where you are allowed to roam where you will. Has it ruined the place?

I know this is stating the obvious, but you do realise that Scotland has a lower population, and land is in less demand?

It's entirely possible in Scotland to be somewhere, where there isn't a house in a several mile radius. That isn't the case pretty much anywhere in England, you need to compare apples with apples.

Just to be completely upfront, I do/have ridden footpaths; however I am under no delusion that it doesn't have any impact on anyone else. I just sometimes find the lack of honesty on this site astounding, if you are acting like a selfish dick, then at least own up to it, rather than hiding behind bullshit excuses.

The world is not some sort of Utopia where we have the selfish right to do whatever we want

Nice example of reductio-ad-absurdum Edric. Our situation is what we make it. There will be no change if we do not change. How is an act that causes no harm, selfish? How is a bicycle considered harmful, when walking a dog is not?

Scotland has a lower population, and land is in less demand?

Central belt has a far higher population density than Somerset, but the RtR laws apply successfully there.

I am sure if you pick very small pockets you can find exceptions however I wonder how much riding is done in the densely populated spots, compared to the more out of the way places. Personally I avoid riding in cities, especially if I can head out to national parks

Why not just own up, and admit it that you are riding this stuff because *you* want to, and it has nothing to do with some BS beliefs of you against the *man*.

Lots of people act in selfish anti social ways, why not just own up, and admit its all about *me*, and screw anyone else who gets in they way of doing whatever you want.

As long as you can live with the caveat, that it's OK for other people to treat you, your loved ones and property in the same way without complaint or else that's hypocritical.

"Lots of people act in selfish anti social ways"

So, as I think we've tried to explain, our actions are not anti-social. The word "selfish" means "Lacking consideration for others", and I think you can see that our actions are considered to avoid conflict and harm. [b]No.[/b]

"why not just own up, and admit its all about *me*"

Or is it more about "us" as bicycle riders asserting just freedoms. But indeed, I also choose to ride here for my own satisfaction. [b]Partially.[/b]

"screw anyone else who gets in they way of doing whatever you want"

No-one is screwed by our actions. And I always politely obey the instructions of the landowner when required. Our consideration, discreteness and politeness is why this is so rarely necessary [b]No.[/b]

it's OK for other people to treat you, your loved ones and property in the same way without complaint or else that's hypocritical.

If no harm is caused, I would have no moral reason to deny someone the freedoms they desired. Is this not the principle of "freedom"?

So get off our case 😉

Oh god, it's turned into one of those debates. I'm off out for a ride on the hills around Bath, where nearly ALL the tracks I'll go on are cheeky or footpaths.
And I'm quite happy in that knowledge, as is every other mountain biker in the city!

I have just moved to Bath i`m still trying to find all the legit stuff and link it together !

😀 😯

richc and Sciencofficer are actually just my sockpuppets

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[img] [/img]

Rich, I think you've completely failed to spot that there is no link between a right of way and impact, be it negative or positive. RoW were not put in place to be protective of your farmer mate. Your entire argument lacks any credible foundation.

Do realise that in terms of breaking the law, you riding on a footpath is EXACTLY the same as me riding through afield with no track at all? Trespass is trespass. I can't fathom how you think this gives you any moral high ground.

Selfish? Of course. I ride for my own enjoyment, as I imagine you do, but don't assume that means I'm not inconsiderate of others. I just chose to do it in a more rational, risk based manner than you do.

Rich, I think you've completely failed to spot that there is no link between a right of way and impact,

Of course there is, just because you don't want it to be doesn't make it true! I explained in my earlier post what one possible impact is, and hence my farmers sometimes worry about it.

Or are you denying that paths can be classified/upgraded now?

I ride footpaths, and I know they are cheeky, and I know that it isn't my *right* to do so. I have no moral high ground, but I do object to people who do and think they are in the right, just because the system doesn't work as they want it to.

I do object to people who do and think they are in the right, just because the system doesn't work as they want it to

Fox-hunting?

When it was legal, did you object to the protesters?
Now it's illegal (criminally so), do you object to the hunters?

or vice-versa?

Rules changes because people change them.

Again, Kinder Scout trespass. Example of the above, well made, point.

Still, rules is rules, right? 🙄

Right, this is probably the best thread to ask this, hope you don't mind...

I'm trying to put a new route together as a bit of a variation from my usual Rowberrow/Blackdown loop. The bridleway that runs along the top of Cheddar gorge on the south side; is it much good to ride from SW to NE, descending to Blackrock? (I've ridden it the other way, which was great fun) And is it advisable to ride around 9.30am on a saturday?

If it is on both counts, what's the best way to then get back to Blackdown? There looks to be a bridleway heading towards Velvet Bottom which abruptly stops where the 3 footpaths converge. Ideally I'd like to head north from there to meet the bridleway that comes off blackdown. Possible?

The bridleway does stop at the junction of longwood valley /velvet bottom

I assume you mean the 'gorge walk' that goes past the view tower? It's a challenging climb climb in the dry and I'd not bother in the wet. At 09:30 you should be early enough, although climbing its pretty much ok anytime of day, since your speeds are low and people just gawp at you as you try to hustle over the techy bits.

Of the three footpaths the best one to get back up is the west Mendips way itself, which is the most westerly of the three. You can use it to make your way over to turnings and climb up 'potato fields'.

None of them are much cop really but they're handy for staying off-road. Velvet bottom up to Charterhouse is the most scenic of them.