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I also have qualifications, but I'm not using them to try and put down other posters, and I won't rise to you paperwork one-uppery it's arrogant and unpleasant.
It's also arrogant and unpleasant to mock posters for actually having some relevant experience. I only bring it up when I'm being patronised by someone who clearly doesn't know what they are talking about. Your post above is full of holes, but I'm not going to get involved in yet another pointless internet argument.
I don't see the point. You obviously think you know better and I can clearly see that nothing I say is going to make any difference
I think you're totally missing the point.
We are open minded about it, and everything we can see, and have seen suggests that carbon and chinese carbon is OK.
You seem convinced it isn't, but have no real basis for that.
I (and I'm sure Njee as well) would be the first to welcome some data and tests to actually show either way, but we want evidence and data, not hand waving and unfounded worrying.
yet another pointless internet argument.
They're not pointless, arguments provide amusement, fire the brain, and sometimes even reveal points of view and ideas you hadn't considered. Mostly this one is just providing amusement at the moment 🙂
Indeed, such data would be great, and actually it would be really interesting to know if it was genuinely inferior.
I have indeed considered your opinion on this matter as worthless.
I can see that and the feeling is entirely mutual, so there's no point in discussing it any further.
The ironic thing is that you keep talking about your "experience", but you appear to have none that is wholly relevant to this situation. You've not ever seen the product, let alone tested, analysed or even used it in any capacity.
Can you answer, simply, why they are unsafe? Not opinion, which is all you've proffered.
You seem convinced it isn't, but have no real basis for that.
That's not what I actually wrote if you bothered to read.
You've not ever seen the product, let alone tested, analysed or even used it in any capacity.
The problem with the bar the OP linked to is that literally nobody knows anything about it, not even which country it came from. But your common sense suggests that's okay then. Why not give it go on your own bike?
I would without worry actually, but I have a lighter and wider bar already, so no point.
I've also said that I'd generally buy from a 'branded' seller rather than indiscriminate eBay sellers.
Did you read my earlier comments about taking that risk purely out of curiosity..... I was totally prepared for them to break on the first ride
I did actually and I was surprised. I guess I'm more risk averse than you when it comes to bars.
Well obviously you are, as you've said you'd 'consider' using a DH rated bar for XC riding!
if it was such a poor choice and a big risk all the pro teams would be falling back on overbuilt aluminium just for safety.
I don't think you understand racing then.
As in motorsport, pros want to win and are prepared to take considerable risks to do so. Carbon is used extensively in F1 suspension, but unfortunately it sometimes breaks unexpectedly because it's designed on the ragged edge with minimal safety margin. I've had to deal with some massive accidents in testing and the odd one in races, where a carbon wishbone or pushrod has snapped for no apparent reason despite all the procedures in place to supposedly prevent a failure. The easiest and safest solution would be to use heavier steel wishbones (and we have had to do that on occasion in the short term whenever a failure could not be understood). The drivers know the score and accept the risks and trust the team (mostly anyway).
I'm sure it's the same in pro DH mtb racing. Plus pros are not going to run their carbon bars for 5 years without inspection. I don't know, but wouldn't be surprised if the top DH teams replace their carbon bars after every race and if not I'm sure they get a very close inspection - even possibly a proof test if they are very professional.
Well obviously you are, as you've said you'd 'consider' using a DH rated bar for XC riding!
Why not? They only weigh a few grams more, I'm not racing and I haven't had a single one fail in 20 years of riding. Is that not common sense?
Well, taking it literally, that's debatable. If it was "common" sense, ie most people did the same then surely there would be a proliferation of DH bars on XC bikes. There isn't, most people are happy using bars for their intended purpose. Indeed I'm happy with my 117g carbon bars on my XC race bike, but I wouldn't fit them to a DH bike myself. Indeed, if everyone did do as you said then wouldn't bars become increasingly well built? If no one used lightweight bars because they all broke? We've seen a lot of components get heavier over the years, bars are not among them.
I've just changed the (branded) carbon bars on my road bike because they're a few years old, have had a few knocks, and I was losing a bit of faith in them, I don't really want that doubt creeping in.
You're putting all your faith in the manufacturer. You deem a bar adequate if Easton tell you that it's rated for riding more extreme than you will ever do. You're not employing any common sense whatsoever. Common sense says that they sell tends of thousands of units, with minute failure rates, therefore the risk of failure if you comply with their defined envelope of us is extremely low.
You've then got these labels, which you put all your faith in. If Easton suddenly added a "DH" moniker to their EC90 bars would you then deem them adequate for your riding?
It's ironic you're questioning my common sense, when you appear to be putting blind faith in marketing!
To use your own logic the only bars I've had fail (and that's an extreme way of putting it) were a pretty heavy pair of Maxm carbon bars, so lighter are safer in my experience of 20 or so pairs of handlebars.
I've got some lightweight carbon road bars on my Madone, which are now 10 years old, just ordered some replacements as they've been bothering me for about 2 years and I've just not got around to it!
From the other thread, I see you mind taking a few risks but why let it bother you for 2 years? But you just keep applying your common sense and hopefully you won't have to contribute to the next failed bars thread from personal experience.
because they're a few years old,
10 you said. Maybe you don't ride it much, maybe you weigh 50 kg?
Maybe you don't ride it much, maybe you weigh 50 kg?
It's/they've done about 40,000 miles at a guess. I weigh 67kg.
You're putting all your faith in the manufacturer. You deem a bar adequate if Easton tell you that it's rated for riding more extreme than you will ever do. You're not employing any common sense whatsoever. Common sense says that they sell tends of thousands of units, with minute failure rates, therefore the risk of failure if you comply with their defined envelope of us is extremely low.You've then got these labels, which you put all your faith in. If Easton suddenly added a "DH" moniker to their EC90 bars would you then deem them adequate for your riding?
It's ironic you're questioning my common sense, when you appear to be putting blind faith in marketing!
You're making some massive presumptions about me up there. I'm not doing any of those things.
It's/they've done about 40,000 miles at a guess. I weigh 67kg.
tick tock tick tock tick tock bang! Common sense my arse.
and I was losing a bit of faith in them, I don't really want that doubt creeping in.
But you let the doubt creep in for 2 years, knowing that you had a few knocks. You clearly don't know what you are doing and just relying on pot luck. It might run out one day for you and you're just stacking up the odds out of ignorance. And yet you have the cheek to question my own common sense.
I don't think you understand racing then.
I undertand all about the risks and incrimental gains, but in DH and XC racing there are still some areas where reliability is key, and carrying a little extra weight is the compromise, my point is that if carbon was inherently unsafe, and prone enough to failure then we wouldn't use it, at least not as widespread as we do.
because it's designed on the ragged edge with minimal safety margin
perhaps that's the difference, you're speaking form experience of stuff like that, which really isn't the case in mass produced handlebars, they have a fairly substantial safety margin built in by default.
In DH more than anything it is down to a single run, a component failure means instant loss of placing. we go to great lengths not just to save weight but also for reliability, look at tyre systems for proof of that. the ~100g penalty on a Alu bar vs Carbon would be one worth taking *if* crabon bars were that unsafe and unreliable.
You obviously are more risk averse, especially with bars, but my point is that perhaps that risk assessment is based bad assumptions.
For a long while I was risk averse on bottom brackets after snapping a spindle and getting a nasty cut up the inside of my calf from the jaggedy spindle remnants, but most people thought I was being un-necessarily cautious as they'd never broken a BB, in hindsight it was a freak occurrence and I'm over it.
Well obviously you are, as you've said you'd 'consider' using a DH rated bar for XC riding!
Why not? They only weigh a few grams more, I'm not racing and I haven't had a single one fail in 20 years of riding. Is that not common sense?
You seem to be equating your choice of DH bars as the reason for your lack of failures. Correlation does not imply causation. Your lack of failures could be because you're lucky, it could also be that you've never generated the right/wrong load to cause a failure. And without knowledge of that you can't attribute it to your bar choice.
I bet I can find a dozen examples of people using the same pair of 10-20 year old XC bars who have never had a failure, but it would be just as anecdotal and co-incindetal.
if you'd said that you used to use XC bars but kept getting failures until you swapped to DH bars, then that would at least have more relevance.
It's/they've done about 40,000 miles at a guess. I weigh 67kg.
tick tock tick tock tick tock bang! Common sense my arse.
So when faced with an example (we've actually provided a fair few in this thread), of your fears of failure not being founded, your only argument is 'give it time' or 'you got lucky' ?
one example = anecdote
lots of examples = data
so far there are lots of examples of things being fine.
there are very few examples of instant-explodo-bar syndrome.
maybe, just **maybe** you're worrying over nothing.
But you let the doubt creep in for 2 years, knowing that you had a few knocks. You clearly don't know what you are doing and just relying on pot luck.
Or he's making decisions based on his own experience of how infrequently his bars fail in similar circumstances and his knowledge of the use they've had, and he's just less scared than you are.
Do you worry this much over other components?
my point is that if carbon was inherently unsafe
I don't remember saying carbon was inherently unsafe anywhere. Perhaps you can recall where I said that?
maybe, just **maybe** you're worrying over nothing.
But it wasn't me who was worrying that their 10 year old lightweight bars might let go. He said it himself, they were bothering him for 2 years.
I don't worry for one second about my own bars.
maybe, just **maybe** you're worrying over nothing.
As I said, I'm not the one worrying.
moshimonster - MemberI don't remember saying carbon was inherently unsafe anywhere. Perhaps you can recall where I said that?
You've kind of implied it, by refusing to use it, no?
I don't remember saying carbon was inherently unsafe anywhere. Perhaps you can recall where I said that?
I just don't think it's the safest option for a mass produced bar for your average weekend warrior.
I don't trust carbon bars from any manufacturer
FWIW I won't run ANY carbon bar on my own bike, branded or otherwise. I have a lot of experience of using carbon in motorsport and seen too many unexplained failures to trust it in certain applications - and small diameter bars with large bending moments isn't an application I would be happy to trust with carbon.
I'm not convinced mtb mass manufactured parts are going to be consistent enough. There are enough broken branded parts around as evidence of this and the lighter you go, the risk increases exponentially
Perhaps I mis-understood those remarks, you clearly don't consider it safe enough for your use.
But maybe my extrapolation to you not considering it safe in general wasn't fair.
You've kind of implied it, by refusing to use it, no?
I actually said it's because in this case (bars) I prefer to use the obvious alternative material i.e. alloy.
That's not the same as stating that carbon is unsafe. I'm just not convinced that the bike industry is on the whole professional enough to manufacture consistently reliable carbon bars and especially not for £14 retail. I also don't see a massive inherent advantage in having carbon bars. Carbon frame yes I can see a real advantage, but bars no - just more risk.
There are enough broken carbon bars from the big name brands to put me off. Some people on this thread are even implying that branded carbon bars are even more likely to break than totally random non-branded ones. When I buy a bar I always take the trouble to hunt for failure stories, which is easy with branded bars. Some people have suggested that there are few or no reported cases of failure of cheap unknown Chinese bars, but which cheap unknown bars are those? All of them?
But maybe my extrapolation to you not considering it safe in general wasn't fair.
There are safer alternatives as I said above. That does not imply that carbon is inherently unsafe. That would be completely ridiculous coming from my own background where carbon is routinely used for almost everything!
You just don't think its safe enough for you to use, because you don't trust the industry to manufacture it well enough. Fair enough, just out of interest, do you ever see that changing, what would it take to persuade you otherwise?
Are we all friends again now? 🙂
Were we ever not?
I love all my fellow Single****ters, even the ones I disagree with 🙂
You just don't think its safe enough for you to use, because you don't trust the industry to manufacture it well enough. Fair enough, just out of interest, do you ever see that changing, what would it take to persuade you otherwise?
When I stop seeing loads of user reviews of broken carbon bars. Every time I've considered the idea (yes I am open-minded), the user reviews have shown a lot more failures than the equivalent alloy version. Maybe you can demonstrate otherwise - genuinely interested.
Do you think that maybe carbon is not as suitable for home (read 'ham fisted') fitting as alu bars and that's likely the issue with most broken carbon bars? I certainly do which is why I'm happy enough using them. As an engineer with presumably excellent mechanical sympathy I'd expect the same for you 😉
(FWIW, I've seen far more broken/bent Al/Ti bars than carbon)
I'm not convinced I'm on moshimonster's christmas card list!
But you let the doubt creep in for 2 years, knowing that you had a few knocks. You clearly don't know what you are doing and just relying on pot luck. It might run out one day for you and you're just stacking up the odds out of ignorance. And yet you have the cheek to question my own common sense.
As amedias said it's not pot luck. I know the exact history of these bars from the moment they reached my hands, there is no ignorance in play. The only reference I can find to a failure online was someone over tightening their stem and cracking them. I wouldn't buy second hand handlebars, but plenty of people do. It's about calculated risk. I'm not sitting at home head in hands because I'm paranoid my handlebars are going to break! That they're carbon is also irrelevant, I'd be replacing aluminium bars of the same age/use quite honestly.
There are safer alternatives as I said above.
Have you got that evidence yet?
nemesis - I agree, but just don't see the point in running them. I also weigh 88 kg and find many carbon bars scarily flexible even in the shop. I'm not saying that means they will break, but it's not a feeling I like.
(FWIW, I've seen far more broken/bent Al/Ti bars than carbon)
Same here, both via online reports and through workshops.
But then, as alluded to earlier, the percentage of carbon bars out there is smaller (for now).
But I'd still say the failure rate is no higher than any other material form what I've seen.
There's also a tendency for people to report it more when a carbon bar fails, partly because they are often more expensive so people are grumpier when there is a failure, and partly due to the 'OMG carbonz sux, it snaps' brigade.
FWIW, I've seen far more broken/bent Al/Ti bars than carbon
Yep, likewise.
I'm not convinced I'm on moshimonster's christmas card list!
He's back! But seriously I'm out of this thread now for good. As I said, and didn't follow my own advice, it's pointless arguing with idiots on the internet (me included because I should know better).
Enjoy having the last word as I'm sure you will insist, but I won't be reading it.
He's back! But seriously I'm out of this thread now for good. As I said, and didn't follow my own advice, it's pointless arguing with idiots on the internet (me included because I should know better).Enjoy having the last word as I'm sure you will insist, but I won't be reading it.
Jees, good job, biscuits had just ran out!
Oh, I guess the truce is over again... 🙁
biscuits had just ran out
amateur...
Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance
it's pointless arguing with idiots on the internet
depends if you enjoy it or not 😈
Bets on how long before he returns...!? Or was that a flounce?
Now he's gone though, I do agree with his basic point. I wouldn't use the bars in the OP's question. I'd use carbon bars from a manufacturer (Chinese direct or otherwise) with a good rep that I could at least do some research on though.
(Hi moshi, we know you're looking 🙂 )
I would, but I'd buy from a reputable company (in China), which is basically saying that I wouldn't I guess!
So basically the same! But if someone gave me a pair of the bars in the OP's link I'd give 'em a go!
[quote=moshimonster] I've got a 1st class and masters degree in mech eng. plus 20 years experience working directly with structures, including carbon. So I'd say I know at least as much as you do about them. I certainly don't need a patronising ladybird book lecture from you about how two sheets of carbon separated by a bonded lightweight honeycomb core make the the resultant structure so much stronger. I'm sure you know that such a structure requires a decent section to work efficiently, typically a quarter inch core. These carbon bars are not such a construction and the primary load is a pure bending load.
You describe my comments as patronising? 😯
Carbon bars are not sandwich construction, that was just an illustration - a bar works in just the same way as a sandwich construction, with one side in tension the other in compression (clearly that is a simplification, with the force actually varying from tension to compression around the tube). No core needed, as the tubular shape constrains the outer surfaces in just the same way that the web on an I beam allows that to resist bending forces through tensile and compression stress in the top and bottom parts of the beam. You do understand how an I beam works? Well a tubular "beam" like a handlebar resists bending loads in much the same way. You've got a 1 1/4" section rather than the 1/4" core of your sandwich!
It's easy to show that it's the structure resisting the bending load, rather than the composite itself by cutting up a bar and seeing how low the bending stiffness is for the material when it is no longer in a tubular shape. If you have no old carbon bars to cut up, then the experiment works just as well for alu (which is no better at resisting bending forces anyway).
[quote=moshimonster ]It's also arrogant and unpleasant to mock posters for actually having some relevant experience. I only bring it up when I'm being patronised by someone who clearly doesn't know what they are talking about.
Presumably you don't think I know what I'm talking about? It has already been done, but here's a handy link for you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
my qualifications are irrelevant to this discussion - I'm basing my arguments on facts, not qualifications.
Though presumably you won't be reading any of this anyway, will you...
Though back to the OP, I think I'm with moshi in being uncomfortable using a £14 unbranded carbon bar which you have no idea at all about the provenance. Because he is correct in his argument about the risk - you have no knowledge at all about those, so it is all risk, whereas with a branded component (whether western or Chinese branded) there is a certain degree of traceability which reduces the risk by providing you with some knowledge about the reliability.
I'm not sure anyone's specifically disputed that point have they? Where I have issue is when that's extrapolated to either all carbon, or all carbon that comes from China/isn't from a 'big' Western brand.
[quote=njee20 ]That they're carbon is also irrelevant, I'd be replacing aluminium bars of the same age/use quite honestly.
Well if we're going there, personally I'd be replacing similar alu bars a lot sooner. If the composite bars haven't received a knock I'm not seeing a major reason to ever replace them simply due to amount of use. Plenty of alu bars out there which have been in use for far longer than your carbon ones, as I don't think most roadies would ever consider changing their bars apart from after a crash or if they want a different shape - I've certainly never thought about replacing mine, despite them being lighter than most carbon bars (though the current ones are only about 4yo, and 10+yo ones on my previous bike only get used on the trainer at the moment).
One of the reasons I've not replaced them sooner is that I really like the shape (anatomic drops), and they don't do them any more! VR/round just aren't as comfy IMO.
As I said, I'm not paranoid about them, hence not having replaced them to date, nor do I expect them to fail (indeed I'll sell them with a clear conscience). It's just a peace of mind thing. I'm happy that I'm not dicing with death every time I sling a leg over the bike!
or are you...?
Idiot
🙂
Well yes I am, but that's nothing to do with the bars being about to explode.
[quote=njee20 ]nor do I expect them to fail (indeed I'll sell them with a clear conscience). It's just a peace of mind thing.
Intriguing. So you'll have peace of mind that they won't fail on somebody else's bike, but not on yours?
Singletrack - 1
Moshie(engineer) - 0
😉
Intriguing. So you'll have peace of mind that they won't fail on somebody else's bike, but not on yours?
It's a risk perception thing isn't it? Again! I don't genuinely think they're about to break. I just think 'y'know, these have been on here for a long time, they're fairly light, I've clattered countless potholes, they've been subjected to the rigours of airport baggage handlers, perhaps I ought to change them'. If I put them on eBay and someone else decides they're happy to take a punt on a pair of second hand carbon bars that isn't my problem. I'm not going to lie about their age, or deceive.
nemesis - Member(FWIW, I've seen far more broken/bent Al/Ti bars than carbon)
Me too- I've even folded a steel one 😆 Never broken a carbon one despite hammering some (as in, bike falling off chairlift, outliving 2 frames) but bent 2 alu ones. Which I suppose is 100% of all the alu ones I've used for any length of time on anything bar a road bike.
small update for anyone that is still interested....
Off the back of this discussion and my previous non-death experience with Chinese carbon bars I decided to take it one step further and put my life on the line* in the name of Science!
I have acquired a pair of China's finest [b]fake [/b]Bontrager RXL bars**, they are currently on the front of my bike and have had one outing already.
On first inspection they appear very very similar to the real ones, slight variation in the cosmetic layer, but then there will be between individual bars anyway. Wall thickness appears the same, weight is 22g heavier than the real ones, and the decals state 15mm rise, when in fact they are flat - whoops. If it were not for the decal error I do not think anyone would be able to tell the difference visually unless they were very familiar with them.
I'm basically going to use them for my normal riding until either
A> They break
B> They make sufficiently bad noises that I get scared and remove them
C> I forget they are fake.
This is simply an experiment on my part, I do not condone buying counterfeit goods, so please leave all moral arguments aside, and no need to call me an idiot, I've been an idiot for a while now, I have a robust coping mechanism for it.
Stay tuned!
* maybe
** chosen because I also have 2 real pairs to compare with, well I hope they are real...
and the decals state 15mm rise, when in fact they are flat - whoops
There is the possibility that these are genuine and the reason for cheapyness is because they are mislabeled hence QC reject.
Regards weight quite often items will deviate from the manufacturers quoted weights, check weighweenies listings for comparisons.
I have been running a cheap carbon flat bar for a while now with no issues still waiting for it to explode in a flaming ball of fire and take me with it.
or maybe they got hold of a load of misprinted decals and slapped them on some crappy explodo-bars, who knows! Anyway that discussion has been done to death already on this thread 🙂
I'll let you know if I die.
can i bagsy your bikes if you do die?
You wouldn't want them, they're all 26ers
All i own 😉
Regards weight quite often items will deviate from the manufacturers quoted weights, check weighweenies listings for comparisons.
And Bontrager are particularly guilty of that!
I'm still not dead yet...