[Closed] Charge ditching 29/650B for 2016

You're getting your knickers in a twist over half an inch, whilst simultaneously arguing that the difference in size doesn't matter much?

I was about to buy a new bike (27.5) but am losing confidence it will not be obsolete in a couple of years. I can't afford to spend £2k+ on something which will be worthless (ie: no resale value on the 2nd hand market) within 2 years when I'm struggling to put together cash for a house deposit...

Whilst I can see your point (and I've just had to empty all my accounts for a house deposit too) I think you've got this whole hobby thing the wrong way around. Buy the bike YOU want to ride NOW. Not what someone with around half the budget may or may not want to ride in 2 years time. Selling off old kit might help fund an upgrade, but I'm equally likely to break a part, or just plain wear it out as it is to go out of fashion.

As for your forks, moving forward it's going to be harder to get parts for an older standard but'1/8 has been out for nearly twenty years mate, it was going to evolve at some point right?

Again, why wish them to fail?

Many it's not a gimmick and I'm just a moron. That is a distinct possibility!!

Wrecker, 27.5 depends on tyre as you are probably aware and even though you need a pretty big tyre to get a true 27.5, bike brands still have to make things relatively simple for dealer and customer understanding. Technically you could say 27.1 or whatever but then everyone gets confused! 27+ is more like 29" in terms of overall diameter but again, you have to make it easily digestible.

The upgrade thing is a nightmare I agree, that's one reason these Charges have a 135QR rear hub, 73mm bb shell and 100 front hub to limit incompatibility but with BOOST and all the other gibbons, it's going to be more of a mind field out there!

I suppose the message is be careful how often you introduce new standards. On you own point RE; consumerism, if you annoy the consumers they'll just stop buying and sit it out (as demonstrated on this thread) and at the end of the day they pay for everything.

gossa - Member
Rusty, in this case the marketing dept has **** all influence! Ash is his own man, this can't be said for other brands though where marketing depts and the focus groups that a previous poster mentioned have more influence.

Good!
😀

As for your forks, moving forward it's going to be harder to get parts for an older standard but'1/8 has been out for nearly twenty years mate, it was going to evolve at some point right?

Define 'evolve'?

My steel hardtail is 9 years old - it's everything I want and need in a bike.
As you well know, the vast majority of suss forks out there are 1 and 1/8th.
Manufacturers failing to support that type of installed user base and forcing change on consumers is cynical beyond measure.
And no, it's not a choice if you cant buy the components.

Sorry, but an awful lot of people just don't trust anyone remotely connected with the bike industry anymore.
Personally, in the trust stakes, I place you up there with estate agents, just slightly better than politicians.
😀

And as Wrecker has said, post 650b there's an awful lot of us out there who will try our best never to give you a penny again unless we have to.

Shame really.

Scottfitz, things move on mate, if you want a decent steel hardtail for whatever wheel size, there are still plenty out there.

To be clear, ALL Charge mountain bikes are 27+ in 2016 so if we considered this wheel size a gimmick then we would be pretty stupid to commit to it so heavily so ask yourself, is it because they think it's better? Yes is the answer but maybe not for you fella so try it and if you like it, save your pennies like we all have to and enjoy the ride!

We love it but we ride mostly around here in the less mountainous Dorset and Somerset. If it was in Wales then it might be a different story.

Also you can fit a 29" wheel or a 27.5 but the BB would be a tad low so these bikes might be interchangeable with some of your existing parts although Ash has just torn a strip off me as some of the bikes have a 110mm fork!

[i]Ash has just torn a strip off me as some of the bikes have a 110mm fork! [/i]

"standards", eh! 😉

Who buys Charge bikes?

Would [u]I[/u]buy one? probably not as,
a.I'm more than happy with my rigid 29er and what it offers.
b.I don't generally buy 'Built' bikes rather I source all my own components and build it to the spec I want.

Good luck to them for concentrating there energies in this niche and bit harsh of the individual hoping for them to fail, but time will tell, 18months time they may drop all the 27+ to concentrate on 29ers.

Maybe i should hold a 'Plus size' Q&A at the Square and Compass this sunday lunchtime, i'll get the pasty's in 😀

You really should be calling them "chubby".

Orange? People who are nostalgic buy Orange.

Rusty, i'll define evolve in that tapered steerer is stronger and stiffer so steers better and is tougher in impacts.

Why do bike, frame or fork manufacturers owe you the right to sustain an old standard? That's bonkers mate.

There is no conspiracy to obsolete old standards but there is also no obligation to support them either. However I am sure you will be bale to get a decent fork and tyres for years to come. Marzocchi kept a 1" fork for years after 1"1/8 came out, if enough people stick with a straight steerer, fork manufacturers will respond, again that is business, demand and supply, why does anything think the bike game is any different from any business?

Why would you want a 2.35 over a 2.00? same answers apply

Because unlike motos, bicycles need light tyres. So there is a limit to tyre wall thickness meaning that there is a limit to how wide you can go before tyre roll becomes an issue.

Its also an utter myth that the bike industry pushes new stamdards because they are better, there is a lot of evidence to suggest that 26 inch bikes are faster on the downs.

What works though, isnt always what pudgy middle aged idiots with too much money and very little technical knowledge want.

Why do bike, frame or fork manufacturers owe you the right to sustain an old standard?

I agree Wrecker, that's what it's all about. if people don't want these bikes, they won't buy them and Ash will scratch his head and say 'shit, I thought that bike was rad but I was wrong'.

Problem with maintaining old standards is just that though, they are old and some obsolete (not all)!

I loved my Fat Chance Shockabilly I really did but the reality is in comparison to todays bikes, it would ride like a turd.

I wonder if Ford ever get this response when they fit 16" alloy wheels instead of 15" ones for a new model year?

16 inch alloys dont change the tyre diameter though....do they.

wwaswas - Member

I wonder if Ford ever get this response when they fit 16" alloy wheels instead of 15" ones for a new model year?

I wonder if anyone thinks that's a sensible comparison?

Lively debate guys, I'm not trying to win anyone over with these counter positions just explaining that like you, we want better bikes, we scratch our heads wondering if its really better when new standards come out and just like you, we have to try our hardest to do the best job we can so that we, like you, pay the mortgage and keep a job!

If Fox come to Ash and don't offer a non tapered fork in their line, he has to make a frame around what they are making. Sometime the component makers call the shots way more than the bike/frame brands.

Off home now.

gossa - Member

Why do bike, frame or fork manufacturers owe you the right to sustain an old standard? That's bonkers mate.

What percentage of suspension forks in use worldwide do you think are 1/1/8th?
Very, very high 90's?

And you're happy for the industry (with the very odd exception) to withdraw support for that group of users?
Wow, mate that is cynical.

I'll be reminded of that next time someone in the industry bangs on about how much they do for 'our community'.

Also makes a nonsense out of every single word the manufacturers spout re sustainability and cycling's green credentials, doesn't it?

Interested to hear what you think!

Rusty, in this case the marketing dept has **** all influence! Ash is his own man,

Actually, by being on this thread, openly as a Charge employee, Ash is engaging in social media marketing best practice - he knows this is a contentious strategy by Charge, he'll have been keeping an eye out for such a thread and has (sensibly - from a marketing point of view) openly engaged with his critics on it...

So in this instance, he is the marketing dept! As he should be. The brand are risking alienating their customers with this shift and the most important thing is to get involved in the conversation. In part it gives him insight into how we feel, and it also helps him sell the benefits of the new product. All above board and, as I say, social media marketing best practice. Still marketing though...

Just looking at the Charge website and tbh it seems more like a comment on their current mtb line. £600 for a Cooker 1, a bike with an XC30 fork for £1300... Seriously, who buys these currently? Discontinuing them is no loss.

Yes things change but not always for the better. I guess time will tell and prove me wrong.

Btw isn't really a modern version of the blender.

[i]I wonder if anyone thinks that's a sensible comparison?[/i]

Will I did 🙂

maybe Apple making old products 'unsupported' when new Os versions are released, then?

Charge sell complete bikes, not components so backwards compatability is not something they have to maintain?

But they do that by trying to make what they think are better bikes and not by duping people.

Yes of course they are making it impossible to upgrade your existing old bike by introducing new standards that your bike does not support [ and dropping the old standards that fit your bike] because its better rather than because its more profitable.

It's not the new wheel size that's the problem at all in my view, it's the refusal to support existing legacy bikes that most people own - therefore forcing upgrades at a time when a lot of people are pretty skint.

Let alone skint, if you're happy with it why change?

My, probably unfounded, fear is a lack of affordable spares for my bike before I'm ready to change it.

Still choice is good, right?

Don't know why so many people are getting their knickers in a twist, the cooker 1 looks like the sort of bike that ticks many boxes a good simple hard tail that will no doubt ride well with not much to go wrong. A good way to learn how to ride off road.

Gossa, all of the mountain bike range will be 27+? Does that mean you are dropping the fatbike?

My, probably unfounded, fear is a lack of affordable spares for my bike before I'm ready to change it

Agreed. I did a quick search for 2.25 Nobby Nics 26 inch (my current tyres) and all stockists had them as unavailable...

A few years ago I had the same problem when I wanted to replace my 25.4 handlebars...

Judge people by their actions, not their words - it's the dropping of standards that lots of riders are already happy with that tells you these changes are about the industry and not customers...

I've always said that 650B/27.5 only makes sense if it replaces both 26 and 29. If you are going to keep two sizes then 26 & 29 makes more sense than 27.5 and 29 as there is a clearer difference.

Now that 27.5 has replaced 26 we get these plus sized tyres to give the same diameter as a 29. So we can all return to one standard wheel size and just use different tyres to suit our needs.

Agreed. I did a quick search for 2.25 Nobby Nics 26 inch (my current tyres) and all stockists had them as unavailable...

Do they have any 27.5 x 2.8"? One - out of stock though

The only thing that bike companies have successfully done to me is to put me off buying a new bike. All these new wheel sizes and proprietary components have put me off, I have a 26" wheeled bike and a couple of 29ers, i'll be leaving it there for the time being.

thank the gods i still have my duster is all i can say (26" and proud 😀

I'd hardly worry what Charge are doing, they're not so much an industry influencing brand than a small factory that makes niche bikes for middle aged men who go to great lengths to ensure they are 'different' and boutique. I wouldn't call their range of bikes serious in terms of cutting edge technology, speed or design. Have they got any kind of presence in xc or enduro racing, where a lot of these trends matter?

/*EXIT Feather ruffling mode

Every one I've had a go on (er, two, a Blender and a Cooker 🙂 ) have been really good.
Properly fun and well thought out.

I dunno about boutique, both owned by otherwise skint climbers.

I like Charge.
And Dialled, Cotic etc.

I've got a Plug 3 which I bought in the sales late last year, and a Duster I got from eBay earlier this year. I like the bikes, and like how they ride.

They aren't the lightest, or fastest bikes out there, but they don't claim to be. Sure they don't offer the best value for money, but you can spend more and get less from other british manufacturers.

As has been said if you don't like what they are offering no one is forcing you to buy from them. The industry is changing, but a company the size of Charge will have very little influence on how most of the industry is going. If they didn't change their line up people would be asking why are they still selling the same models as they were 3 years ago.

Judge people by their actions, not their words - it's the dropping of standards that lots of riders are already happy with that tells you these changes are about the industry and not customers...

At some point shops had old and new sizes in stock, new sizes sell well, old sizes sit and need cleared out at a discount. How many £700 1-1/8th forKs do people think they sold around the time taper came out? What about now all new frames are taper? How many people with existing 1-1/8 frames are wanting to buy £1000 RS1's or Pikes Compared to those also buying new frames/wheels/11 speed etc?

At what level of spec do companies makes or stock old standard parts? There are already low end parts available and I guess they musnt sell many, I really can't see companies ignoring real markets, even for old standards, but I just don't think they exist in the scale some seem to think.

Junkyard - lazarus

Yes of course they are making it impossible to upgrade your existing old bike by introducing new standards that your bike does not support [ and dropping the old standards that fit your bike] because its better rather than because its more profitable.

Can't you just bang a 29er wheel on a 650+ bike if you want?

... post 650b there's an awful lot of us out there who will try our best never to give you a penny again unless we have to.

Shame really.

There's at least 3 of you on here, and about 5 on each of MTBR and Pinkbike. Plus the "silent majority", of course. Probably enough of a market for an ambitious entrepreneur to really make a killing on.

[b]2003 Cycles: Always In Our Hearts[/b]

Here at 2003 Cycles, we've seen all the gimmicks come and go. We know that the Hite-rite and the Flex-Stem were marketing nonsense for the gullible, and we know you feel the same about the 650b, the Boost 148, the 1* drivetrains, the tubeless tyres and all the rest of the new things. We're here, for people who don't like giving "The Bike Industry" any money. Making the things that you want to make sure are available forever, but have sworn you won't actually buy.

This is our promise to you: a giant warehouse full of top-end 2003. Forever. Or at least until we go bankrupt.

[img] [/img]

😉 😛

Glasgowdan gets it, all these niche bikes, weird tyre sizes etc and yet I never see any out on the trails?!....

....who is buying them and do they only bring them out under cover of darkness?!

Virtually everything I see on rides at trail centres, my local woods, uplift days, local races etc seem to be 26 or 27.5 HT or FS wearing 'normal' tyres....I see the odd 29er too but seeing as I spend most of my time at BPW or FoD even they are rare beasts.

Good on you if you ride a rigid with fat tyres but nobody else needs to worry about not being able to get spares, forks, tyres etc for their normal bikes, there are loads of stuff around and market forces dictate that if enough people want something then a company will step in and sell it to them, whether the industry consider it old tech or not.

Now that 27.5 has replaced 26 we get these plus sized tyres to give the same diameter as a 29. So we can all return to one standard wheel size and just use different tyres to suit our needs.

Except this won't happen as there are geometry compromises in long travel 29ers.

Charge are a small UK company who have little influence on the industry overall; what they do have though is the benefit of being able to change their product design relatively quickly to fill a gap in the market or offer something different if that's what they feel like. Cotic, Dialled, Singular bikes etc are in a similar position in this respect. I've no problem with this and good luck to them, particularly as they've had the balls to answer their critics online in this forum.

Personally I like their bikes, i've only ridden a Cooker Rigid which I had for 18 months and was the first bike I used for dabbling into 29+ territory. It was a lovely bike to ride and was only replaced to move onto a full 29+ frame which was only available from Surly at the time. If the new Charge 650B+ bikes had been available then i'd definitely have considered one.

Got to say that having gone 29+ recently I can see how 27.5+ is going to be a fun bike to rag around the woods. It won't have quite the mile munching ability of a bigger 29+ wheel though.

At worst, it's a regular 650 but with a lot more mud clearance.

As for this 'the industry' coming up with devilish ways to **** us over, well that's just horse shit - if we, the people, didn't buy stuff, they wouldn't make it...

[i]a regular 650 but with a lot more mud clearance.[/i]

and a lower BB if the OD of the wheel's reduced?

1.5cm lower for the b+ by my measurements, less difference if you use a bigger 650b tyre than the 2.8" Trailblazer.

I do think that EBB's make more and more sense when bikes are being touted as 'multi-wheel' size - allows you to tune chainstay length and effective BB height to suit.

flowmtbguy - Member

As for this 'the industry' coming up with devilish ways to * us over, well that's just horse shit - if we, the people, didn't buy stuff, they wouldn't make it...

Look at the evolution of 650b+ though. Started out, the entire point of it was that you could put it in your existing 29er. Then assorted big players looked at it and went *! We've missed a chance to sell new frames and forks here. And so invented new axle standards for b+. I think the only surprising thing is that this time it's Rockshox taking the piss on fork standards.

I think B+ is really interesting, personally, I'd like to try it but I don't think it's cynical to be cynical about the cynical direction some companies have taken 😉

Funnily enough, my Swift has EBB to allow for that...

adsh we will continue sponsoring the Erlestoke 12, we might even do something crazy and race the 27+ bikes! Don't forget 29" wheels fit in these 27+ frames and that the outer diametre of the 27+ is very similar to a 29" standard wheel (all depends on tyre type). All I would say is 27+ is no fat bike.. Rolling resistance is far lower than you might imagine. Everyone who's actually ridden the bikes have been very surprised.

I have enjoyed reading the comments in this thread.. Those saying how much they liked our 24" Iron and Blender, Dusters etc.. I would say we had almost exactly the same skepticism when we first launched those bikes, for them now 5 years on to be singled out about what was / is good about our brand. These new 27plus bikes have been researched, ridden and launched in exactly the same way. Time will tell.

Don't forget 29" wheels fit in these 27+ frames

Is that true, the article on STW home page said the chainstays had been shortened to fit the smaller 27.5x2.8 tyres. Can you confirm this 'officially' or otherwise?

chargebikes - Member

adsh we will continue sponsoring the Erlestoke 12, we might even do something crazy and race the 27+ bikes!

I raced my 29+ Surly Krampus at Bristol OktoberFest and Brighton BigDog last year and had great fun at both. As the guy from Charge said, plus standard bikes are different to Fat Bikes and certainly no slouch on the woodland singletrack.

Stato - yes I can confirm they do fit in the rear. Rear ends on Cooker27+ frames are all 135mm width - not Boost.

Started out, the entire point of it was that you could put it in your existing 29er. Then assorted big players looked at it and went ****! We've missed a chance to sell new frames and forks here. And so invented new axle standards for b+.

Boost was made by Trek for 29ers, to help wheel strength and allow a bit more mech/tyre clearance... which is the reason its also been adopted for 27+.

Non-boost 27.5+ bike by British company that's 29er swappable.. sounds great to me.

Looking forward to some reviews or early feedback

To dig-up this thread, has anyone seen any geometry info?

There is spec on the website but little detail about hte frame. All the bikes come with 27.2mm seatpost which seems like an oddity in these days of dropper posts.

http://cooker27plus.chargebikes.com/