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So - I was in a lbs over the weekend (Bike shed in Crediton), looking at the shiney bikes why the oh tried on a million pairs of shorts. One thing I noticed was that a significant portion of bikes still had cantis - both cyclocross and 'touring' bikes.
Now, when v-brakes came into the mtb world they were a revolution, and canti's disappeared in a few years, however in other biking worlds they continue to be popular. I know canti's use a different leverage pull compared to v brakes but it can't be hard to make some drop levers that worked on either. is there something else I'm missing?
Cos they work and they have lots of mud clearance.
Need anything else?
Some say they're all you need for cross, I'd agree at my level. Though I do have discs on my non racing crosser.
Mud clearance on a tourer though?
they are light, they are simple and relatively cheap. atributes that suit touring bikes and CX bikes well.
Oh and the UCI only recently allowed discs on CX bikes.
Need anything else?
They're also blindingly light.
Some people just like the unpredictability of cantis.
When/where/will I stop at all?
My own experience (OK, it was on a fully laden touring bike 20 years ago) is that they were deeply scary things. More effective than dragging your feet on the ground, I'll admit, but not by much.
so far we have answers of light, mud clearance, cheap and simple. But surely V brakes tick all those boxes and more so? I can see why disks have some undisirable characteristics, but I'm not aware of anywhere where cantis are better?? I guess there must be somewhere, hense asking the question 🙂
V's need a thingybob to work with road levers.
Because there's already a large and well proven selection of drop bar STI levers which work, trying to incorporate the lever pull of a V-Brake would probably mess with a proven design and there probably isn't the demand for it.
I took the mini-vs off my cross bike a replaced them with Avid cantis as the mini-vs were a mushy mess at the best of times and seemed to exaggerate pad wear, the cantis might be less powerful but they feel better at the lever, have more rim clearance and work fine for a CX bike.
Because they are commonly used with road bike levers, which need odd travel agent style things to use V brakes with because of the different leverage thingy.
Cantis actually work fine; all my original mountain bikes had cantis, as did my cyclocross bike, which worked perfectly well for things like the 3 Peaks.
Anything else?
I bet in 5-10 years discs will be on all touring/cx bikes and you lot will have them and talk about how crap cantis were.
Road bikes a few years later.
[i]I bet in 5-10 years discs will be on all touring/cx bikes and you lot will have them and talk about how crap cantis were[/i]
...and won't you be a popular dinner party guest...
For once I agree with cynic-al. There's no real reason for cantis nowadays - you'd certainly not choose them if you'd just invented CX and had a choice of them, V brakes or discs, that's for sure.
so sounds like the reason they're still there is because they're 'good enough' for road use, I guess the power advantages of V-brake for mtb use don't exist (to such an extent) on-road? I know the drop levers aren't compatible but I don't really buy that as a driving force, as when v-brakes came out none of the mtb levers were compatible either 😛
from what I understand, canti's *can* be more powerful than v-brakes, if set up right, however if they're not, they're rubbish??
There's no real reason for [s]cantis[/s] insert thing of choice here nowadays.
I am fully in agreement with the idea that discs offer substantial benefits over cantis for a considerable number of applications, but not for everything-in-the-world-ever-so-lets-just-throw-them-away-and-never-let-them-see-the-light-of-day.
There is a reason for them; they work perfectly well, they are cheap, predictable, easy to set up and trouble shoot, simple mechanical devices that do a straightforward job in a straightforward way. You can say the same about discs, but that doesn't mean that cantis are redundant.
[i]I know the drop levers aren't compatible but I don't really buy that as a driving force, as when v-brakes came out none of the mtb levers were compatible either[/i]
But road levers are primarily for use with dual pivot caliper brakes, not cantis or discs.
Sorry, I know this argument has been done, and I'm sure the OP didn't intend to rekindle it, but for genuine CX purposes, whats the advantage of discs?
I know I've warped more rotors than I have buckled rims, and at least buckled rims can be fixed quickly and accurately. I've also found rim brakes to be consistently quieter, and when they do squeek there's far less black magic involved in fixing it. Likewise, its far simpler adjusting cantis to sit central on a rim than it is to try and predict where your pistons want to sit relative to a disc.
Don't get me wrong, I like discs on the MTB, when I need more power and actually brake more, but on a CX bike I just want an 'adequate' brake that doesn't drag, the clearance and adjustability of a canti gives me just that.
edit: yeah, what crikey said.
There is a reason for them; they work perfectly well, they are cheap, predictable, easy to set up and trouble shoot, simple mechanical devices that do a straightforward job in a straightforward way. You can say the same about discs, but that doesn't mean that cantis are redundant.
right, but I'm asking specifically about V brakes vs cantis, not disks. Vs are (to my mind), easier to set up and trouble shoot, just as cheap, more predictable, and do just as straightforwards a job. From a frame perspective, surely it'd be easier to do v brakes as you don't have to have all the hangers etc that canti's necessitate?
Given how complicated the insides of a typical 10 speed STI are (I'm guessing) it would probably be a fairly hefty chunk of R&D for shimano etc to rejig it for the extra cable pull etc. and they wouldn't be able to charge any more for the new models.
There's probably a much greater percentage to be had in just forcing us all to use discs, which allows them to introduce sexy new hydraulic drop levers and charge something obscene for them.
13FM, for me:
I've never warped one rotor.
sorry but cantis are mince in comparison with discs in the wet
they wear out rims
they are critical of wheel-true-ness
discs are more powerful - fair enough you can lock up the back wheel with your canti but more modulation, control and less effort is always better.
crikey - Member
...and won't you be a popular dinner party guest...
You think I am now? 😀
i had cantis on my last bike. i loved the way you can spend lots of time getting them set up just right, and how over time it gets easier and quicker. no skill to putting disc pads in! avid discs brakes with superstar pads aren't particularly better in the wet either...
Fair enough, I suspect I drag my brakes a lot, or just get unlucky with crashes, but the last two or three disc brake set ups I've had have all had a wibble or two that I couldn't get rid of.I've never warped one rotor.
Are they? They have enough clearance that small wobbles go by un-noticed, and bigger wobbles can be fixed on the trail, quickly and easily, unlike a bent disc.they are critical of wheel-true-ness
Granted, but in the context of a CX bike I'd rather the simplicity etc. over 100% eye popping power in the wet. The point is, CX bikes were never designed to be good at the sort of riding where pin sharp, stop on a dime braking is important.sorry but cantis are mince in comparison with discs in the wet
This is probably the crux of it, why do you need that much control, power and modulation on a bike with silly geometry, skinny tyres and drop bars, which is designed to rocket around and around flat muddy courses for an hour? It just doesn't seem relevant.discs are more powerful - fair enough you can lock up the back wheel with your canti but more modulation, control and less effort is always better.
Likewise. I've seen what Vs do to a rim in the course of one winter, but you wouldn't expext to be braking that heavily for that long on a CX bike would you?they wear out rims
I'm basing all of my arguments on my limited experience and knowledge of CX, if CX races are actually 1 hour long brake-a-thons then I take it all back.
Edit: I'm at home, sick, by the way, otherwise I wouldn't be putting quite so much effort into such a pointless argument 8)
This is probably the crux of it, why do you need that much control, power and modulation on a bike with silly geometry, skinny tyres and drop bars, which is designed to rocket around and around flat muddy courses for an hour? It just doesn't seem relevant.
That's not what I do on mine...
BB7s = way more simple than cantis.
/THREAD CLOSED
PS I'm at home now so not putting nearly as much effort in as I otherwise would 😎
It won't be long before road bikes have little tiny disc brake systems.
I have prophesied it.
Fred you do know you are agreeing with me there?
Punch anyone today? 😉
He's weak! go for the jugular!PS I'm at home now so not putting nearly as much effort in as I otherwise would
That's not what I do on mine...
Fine, but when I'm forced to invest in an expensive braking system I don't want, just for a 45 minute sprint around some singletrack, I'll blame you. Get an MTB if you want to ride big, long, wet descents! 8)
13th-CX purist after 6 months-floormonk
Here's the definitive answer: If your braking force exceeds the grip of the tyre, skids will result. On a road oriented bike, skids are bad, mmmkay?
When your rims wear out don't send me the bill...
cynic-bikes shouldn't be pigeonholed-al
They haven't yet.
13th-stop trying to make CX bikes MTBs-floormonk
etc etc. I'm off, there's a potential brew-haha developing about Laggan vs. Natural riding that I want to get involved in.
For CX and tourers, wide profile cantis give ample clearance around big tyres and mudguards that calipers don't.
V brakes only move a tiny bit away from the rim which makes them good for power but less good for mud and slightly bent wheels. As well as drop bar issues mentioned, I think there's also something else to do with pivot boss positioning - cantis can work with big forks that allow huge clearances.
Tourers also like cantis because they're cheap and easy to fix when cycling around Outer Boga Boga.
But yes, I'm looking forward to the day when you can get decent disc brakes on anything - hydraulic on drop bars too, please.
I miss the days when someone would post up that a well set up pair of rim brakes were just as [if not more] effective than disc brakes and anyone that claimed otherwise simply couldn't set them up right in the first place.
Now, they just claim that rim brakes are 'all right'
Ahh I thought you might be a noob 😉
cynic-what has monstercross ever done to you-al 😛
Ahh.. monstercross? Sounds like a pigeonhole to me!
Anyway, discs make perfect sense for mostercross, those great fat tyres probably disguise any drag from the brakes, just get out of my way on the singletrack when I'm at full pelt and can't stop 😉
If you can catch me I'll be sure to do that 😛
Bah humbug, disks are so old hat.
If you want brakes that don't grind in the mud, don't wear out pads in a muddy 24 hour, and don't mangle your rims, you want a set of these. And they don't squeal or rub.
[url= http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5093/5568160357_f0710361c6_z.jp g" target="_blank">
Just don't take them to Ft William 🙂
Cantis will lock the wheel with a skinny CX tyre - disks are overkill for that purpose.
mark a. has it
If you ran V-brakes in CX, the mud would clog up around the pads (as they are so close to the rim) whereas Canti's sit way out and don't have that issue.
^ And as CX-racers run silly road wheels, they are apt to buckle - and the slightest wobble would drag against V brakes and slow you down.
You can get some major power out of Today's Canti brakes .. the only downside is a tendency to 'judder'.
Fred you do know you are agreeing with me there?
[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/why-dont-road-bikes-have-disc-brakes/page/3#post-28560 ]I think you'll find that is is [i]you[/i] who agrees with [i]me[/i].... [/url] 8)
I'm in no hurry for discs to become mainstream on road and cx bikes.
I dont fancy using powerful discs with a lightly treaded 30c tyre trying to do it's best to stop me. Cantis are vauge, but strangely better for CX racing - anyway with all the poor stopping power, fork judder and mud clearance issues... your not really supposed to do much braking if you can avoid it.
On the other hand, if you use the cross bike for 'proper' rides - get discs.
I have 2 cross bikes and use tektro 720 cantis on one (the race bike) and tekro mini-v's on the other (a commute/single speed) - the Mini-Vs are much, much more powerful, but also way more fiddly to get right and feel a but fragile - so I will stick to canti's until someone produces tiny wee disc brakes that are much more appropriate to the needs of road/cross bikes and kinder to light wheels and frames.
Dia compe make drop levers for v's. Great bit of kit.
But Vs can over power the small contact patch of a road or cross tyre.
Having said that, I use v's or discs on my crossers and touring bikes.
But I weigh a fair bit and have sensitive fingering powers when it comes to braking.
Salsa Fargo with avid discs: one finger braking.... Nice
Have those that are anti-"disc brakes on a road bike" ever ridden such a beast? My experience is that I can stop much quicker - in any conditions - even on skinny 23mm tyres.
Another point about canti is that cantis which take post brake block have a large amount of mechanical advantage adjustment and the brake blocks have more meat on the than v brake which are pathetically thin.
I have a wicked old set of sun tour canti that lock up the wheel on my "touring" (old mtb) bike one fingerd, as good as bb7 in the dray and with more modulation.
LOL Fred, I've disc-equipped road bikes for 5 years.
Oh and what druidh said - folk who are anti-disc-brake have never used them on road bikes for any length of time.
Oh, I have a disc'd road bike, several calipered road bikes and canti braked bikes. They all do different things. If I want to ride long or high or fast I take one of the the caliper braked bikes, if I want to tow my bob yak or just tool to work I take the disc'd bike, if I want to do other stuff I ride one of the canti bikes. At some point they all overlap however they all do different jobs, and do them well and none of them fill all of those roles.
Can I have your Bob Yak please I need it more than you you have a car.
I bet in 5-10 years discs will be on all touring/cx bikes
How much? Money where your mouth is, or you don't really believe that.
Buy me a pint and I might lend it to you. I still use it twice a month for shopping and hauling stuff - £20 of diesel in 3 months isn't too bad I think?
Oh, I'm at CW for the next month - I might be persuaded to let you buy me a pint one evening.
My experience is that I can stop much quicker - in any conditions - even on skinny 23mm tyres
My experience is that I can endo my caliper equipped road bike in any conditions, so I don't see how a disc brake could possibly stop me any faster.
Have those pro disc brakes for road bikes ever ridden a road bike with decent caliper brakes?
Ultegra good enough?
druidh, when's your LEJOG, I've forgotten...
I might come and throw money at you.
Ultegra good enough?
If you couldn't endo with them in any conditions there must be something else wrong.
Ok but I'm not drinking in CW it's full of bankers and the pubs are a bit crap really. Limehouse/Wapping or Greenwich for proper pubs and beer. Grapes in narrow St does a proper nice fish n chips, or there's a couple of Meantime pubs in Greenwich for tasty nutritious locally brewed beer.
Hah! you're actually coming to my town...
I may make a wee effort to see you along the way..
aracer £25 + inflation says disc brakes on all touring bikes over £400 (inflation linked) in 10 years.
You'd want discs for this really I'd say:
[img] 
[/img]
they exist because all my work-mates bikes are old and I end up sorting them out cos I are The Designated Bike Guy despite not much knowledge!. So I end up begging for old shimano 7speed shite on classifieds! They are there to be fixed for normal boring people pon an old bike that don't care!
Kev; I've got a bunch of old toot you can have, if you want? Only junk really but might be helpful to you.
[i]aracer £25 + inflation says disc brakes on all touring bikes over £400 (inflation linked) in 10 years.[/i]
Now there's a less than confident man....
I suspect we will see discs in pro cyclocross within 2 years; no need to change wheels when you can change bikes....
aracer £25 + inflation says disc brakes on all touring bikes over £400 (inflation linked) in 10 years.
You're on <virtual handshake>
Now all I have to rely on is STW forum archives working in 10 years time. Can't believe you gave me that easy a win.
I'm hoping I'll have better things to do than hang out on here by then 😛
Next season?crikey - MemberI suspect we will see discs in pro cyclocross within 2 years
I'm hoping I'll have better things to do than hang out on here by then
Ah - I knew there had to be some other get out.
not helpful to me but I seem to end up sorting all sorts of knackered bikes out. Cantilever shmantilever, so long as it stops! Couldn't sort one bike out just because of a bloody cantilever spring bit. but I got bits off here. It's all cool, people start getting into bikes from the basics and a bit of enthusiasm eh! 🙂 you wanna see this GT mess I'm sorting out!
Happy for you to have my personal details.
[i]Next season?[/i]
Hmmm, maybe.
Think there's a Dura-Ace electro-hydro lever being built as we speak by some inscrutable chap...
crikey - Member
Hah! you're actually coming to my town...I may make a wee effort to see you along the way..
Missed this - which town?
It'll be a surprise..... 😉
cantis work fine...you dont need that great brakes for cross,if you have problems then change your set up,there nice and light and you can change wheels quickly .regarding uptake of disk in world level cross... a few germans and yanks will but not many
Bruce
MUDGUARDS - on wide rimmed touring bikes! This is why cantis are still used. Pauls components make the nicest.
It's easy to fit mudguards - really, really wide ones if you must - with disc brakes.
cynic-al - Member
...Oh and what druidh said - folk who are anti-disc-brake have never used them on road bikes for any length of time.
I can't see the point for skinny tyres. Disks certainly work well, but they are heavier than cantis which also work well with skinny tyres if set up properly with good cables.
I'm using disks on my road bike, but then it's got Big Apples which at 2.35" can handle them.
[url= http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2560/5805833029_3aaa936d96_z.jp g" target="_blank">
and cantis on the cx bike - even though it has a disk mount on the front fork.
[url= http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5145/5684674166_741d89b96a_z.jp g" target="_blank">
epicyclo - Member
I can't see the point for skinny tyres. Disks certainly work well, but they are heavier than cantis which also work well with skinny tyres if set up properly with good cables.
And your drum brakes aren't heavier?
To me the benefits of discs on road bikes are clear - they are better than caliper brakes in dry (slightly) and wet (massively) IME. You can never have too much brake, especially when commuting.
I've never managed to endo on tarmac (though I've not tried that hard, and I can't skid the front wheel either).
For road bikes certainly I think the problems with discs are the torsional force trying to twist the fork and the rotational mass of the rotor itself. Both mean that there is a weight/time penalty that is unlikely to be outweighed by a braking benefit.
The answer would be to fit tiny multi-piston calipers to both sides of the fork on very small rotors.
I'm reasonably happy with Canti brakes on my Kaffenback in terms of power, but they make the fork judder in an unpleasant way, have I just set them up wrong?
so if the advantage of Cantis over Vs is mud clearance, why did every mountain biker flock to V's when they came out? Surely mud clearance is more of an issue there than on touring bikes?
Canti fail. About 2mins 20 in...
why did every mountain bike[s]r[/s][b] manufacturer[/b] flock to V's when they came out?
Look at what you went over, Dude!
[i]Yeah, I bunnyhopped that shit![/i]
Yeah, with your head!
😆
Come on though. When v-brakes came out, it was like a revelation. Far, far easier to set up, and far, far more powerful.
If you've got little tiny girly hands, the more powerful the brakes, the better, cos you're not squeezing so hard to slow down and stop. Vs and discs FTW. I would never ever go back to cantis, and tbh the caliper brakes on my road bike put me off riding it.
Order of efficiency is:
Discs
Vs
Cantis
Calipers.
If roadies want to carry on using crappy little caliper brakes cos they're all luddite heathens, then let 'em. I'm sure common sense will influence the market enough to see that tiny little discs appear on road bikes within the next few years. It's a Logical Progression, y'know, bit like Evolution...