[Closed] Can't we all just be a bit more civil?

If you're keen on civility, you're not likely to find much of it on here in response to a story involving dog owners, cyclists, footpaths and etiquette 🙂

Just to clarify, her dog caused a cyclist to crash?
What kind of response did she expect?

It works both ways - When I'm biking I'm disgusted at the way many dog walkers speak to me and find a lot of them to be very unpleasant people and very anti-MTB's in general

In other circumstances I'd agree but people who have just crashed/seen their mate crash are not going to be in a brilliant frame of mind and should be cut a vast amount of slack.

🤔

Person a has accident which they see as the direct result of the action or inaction of person b.
Person a and group react with hostility to person b.

That's pretty much exactly what I'd expect if
Person a was driving a car
Person a was walking
Etc etc

I think expecting person a to act with good grace is a bit naive.

That said I would have been more civil. I was also twice voted most likely to go "full falling down"

Watch out for dogs. Especially on paths that are walked by people. And their dogs.

That's my (not very catchy) motto.

Civility can get ****ed though 😆

If you're going to come and ride in the Lakes then please do act with some more grace as the local riders are the ones to get the most flack for your anti walker behaviour.

If there is a group of walkers take care when passing them, they may well have dogs or kids who are known to just go whichever way they please. If said group had given some more warning this incident may not have happened at all.

Not saying these sorts of things won't happen but that kind of response to someone who was expressing concern is out of order.

It's very difficult to collide with a walker or a dog or a horse if you slow down to an appropriate pace when passing them.

Simple good manners.

However people make mistakes, and that's time for more simple good manners...

If there is a group of walkers take care when passing them, they may well have dogs or kids who are known to just go whichever way they please.

Also, if you're on a busy path where there may be cyclists then keep your dog close by and under control. It's not difficult, if they're likely to run out of control then put them on a lead. And before you say "it could have been a child" it wasn't, so that debate is out for this conversation.

I understand you point, but you can't expect someone who has just been knocked off to be perfectly calm and reasonable. Particularly if the person expressing concern has just caused the crash, that is why they may have got a sharp tongue.

Yesterday a dog bit my mother aged 89 and tore the skin off the back of her hand. Today she is in pain, feeling ropey from the tetanus jab and has got diarrhoea from the antibiotics. "Oh he's only being friendly" said her neighbour who owns the vicious little fleabag.

Person a has accident which they see as the direct result of the action or inaction of person b. I think expecting person a to act with good grace is a bit naive.

What about "Person A rides into a dog"; how would you expect them to behave?

(Note that we have no idea what actually happened.)

OP. Just to clarify - this is an incident you have heard about 2nd hand from a friend and that you're not sure where it occurred? Could it be that there is more to the story than you do know, possibly? Given all this it is maybe not too surprising that the lecturing tone you have adopted seems to have got up people's noses somewhat. I absolutely agree that the world would be a better place if people were a bit more civil to one another.

Particularly if the person expressing concern has just caused the crash

Surely the rider caused his own crash by not acting with enough caution around walkers and/or dogs.

The only time I get annoyed with dogs getting in the way is when I'm virtually trackstanding waiting for the dopey owner to get them under control. By which I mean, if you come across a walker with a dog and you choose not to slow down enough to account for unpredictable nature of said bastard hound, then any subsequent crash is your fault.

If you've compounded the problem by not warning owner of said dog before you (try to) sail past, then you've definitely got everything you deserve.

Riders don't have priority, walkers and their mutts do. That's the price of being on a shared trail.

I agree that people should be more civil. We are all trying to enjoy ourselves out there (with a few exceptions).

If said group had given some more warning this incident may not have happened at all.

Who should have provided the "warning", the group of cyclists rattling down a trail or the far quieter walker with dog?

If you’re going to come and ride in the Lakes then please do act with some more grace as the local riders are the ones to get the most flack for your anti walker behaviour.

It's not antiwalker to expect walkers to act responsibly any more than its anti biker to expect cyclists to do the same.

It's very odd on the other hand to cause an accident and expect thanks for it. People in general aren't wired like that.

(as epicyclo though, it's unusual for dog/child/horse related accidents to be unavoidable if riding sensibly but it's rare for a dog owner to say its because of their dog when it's remotely possible it's not too)

What about “Person A rides into a dog”; how would you expect them to behave?

Expect or like? Apologeticly certainly, but that said I'd definitely not expect the dog owner to say their dog caused it in that instance.

Who should have provided the “warning”, the group of cyclists rattling down a trail or the far quieter walker with dog?

I must have misread this, you're not actually advocating that dog walkers carry a constantly activated klaxon to warn any poor cyclists in the surrounding area of their presence?

I must have misread this, you’re not actually advocating that dog walkers carry a constantly activated klaxon to warn any poor cyclists in the surrounding area of their presence?

No, dress them as Morris dancers, if only so we can shout "where's your bell" or variations on a theme to those who have the temerity to try things like talking.

Yep Martin, you must have misread it quite spectacularly.
I would suggest that maybe both parties might make an effort to alert the other to their presence, do you think this is wildly unreasonable in some way?

@dangeourbrain, how would you tell walkers and mountain bikers apart then? 😀

What should the dog walker be doing to alert a group of mountain bikers she can't see or hear yet?

Riders don’t have priority, walkers [s] and their mutts [/s] do

That much certainly is true.

I don't think you'll find anything establishing the right of way of dogs though but their owners do have to keep those mutts under close control.

Generally by the time the situation in the OP has arisen is because at least one party wasn't acting with civility and respect in the first instance.
If only everyone was nice to each other all the time.

Edit:

Yep Martin, you must have misread it quite spectacularly.

I'm with Martin on this, it certainly reads like you think it's the walker's job. I think maybe you miswrote it quite spectacularly.

get a bell even for an offroad bike and approach others with caution. Dog walkers are often in their own worlds and older walkers just ignore everything including bells.

and one of them ended up having a crash due to the dog.

Perhaps you should council your friend that she could be more civil minded by better keeping her dog under control?

The real problem is people they don't always act the way you do had one the other day on a Byway in Wiltshire very puddley I went as far away as I could on a MTB he did not slow down which I thought he would do and got soaked one side of me hair helmet the lot so started putting my hands up so least the second guy slowed down yet when I greenlane I slow down for anybody just the way it goes but for that few minutes I was mad.

Yup agreed this is 2nd hand knowledge, though I do know the area it occurred in i'm just staying away from the footpath/bridleway debate. I'm just asking that people need to be more civil and well mannered when out and about, be they walker, biker or horse rider.

It's daft incidents like this that create tension between the two groups when everyone is just trying to enjoy the area.

@dangeourbrain & @martinhutch, sorry i'll try and clarify a bit.

The cyclists should have a bell/make other aware.
Personally, if i'm walking my dog i make my presence known and call the dog to heel when i hear a cyclist coming so they know i am there, which was the point i was trying to make.

I would suggest that maybe both parties might make an effort to alert the other to their presence, do you think this is wildly unreasonable in some way?

Has this ever been part of the country code?! We should all go round with ****ing cowbells on or something. **** being civil when there's doughnuts like this around!

Here it [url= https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/701188/countryside-code.pdf ]is[/url]

DezB too? Well i must be wrong then. Burn the cyclist, its obviously their fault. Ban the lot of them. As you were.

if the dog was under control on a short lead then the cyclist could have an issue but aggressive behavior still isn't right. if the dog was off the lead or on one of those extendable leads which give the owner no control then yes the cyclist would have cause to be upset, but again aggressive behavior even as a result of the shock of the event is inexcusable.

there is a lack of facts though such as the speed of the cyclist, the control status of the dog etc but one fact is that aggressive behavior doesn't have a place in the incident

From all the above it would appear that no, we cannot be a bit more civil.

Whereabouts was it Bungy ?

dobiejessmo Member

The real problem is people they don’t always act the way you do had one the other day on a Byway in Wiltshire very puddley I went as far away as I could on a MTB he did not slow down which I thought he would do and got soaked one side of me hair helmet the lot so started putting my hands up so least the second guy slowed down yet when I greenlane I slow down for anybody just the way it goes but for that few minutes I was mad.

I don't usually go in for pendantism on this sort of thing, but christ on a bike man, at least have a go at punctuation!!

Personally, if i’m walking my dog i make my presence known and call the dog to heel when i hear a cyclist coming so they know i am there, which was the point i was trying to make.

It's my experience that by the time most walkers recognise the sound of a my bike being badly-piloted towards them, I've already called out to them.

I normally use the universally recognised 'STRAVAAAAA!' call. That way they know I am in with a chance of a PR, so can scatter out of the way with their pets, children and picnic items before I plough through them.

From all the above it would appear that no, we cannot be a bit more civil.

This.

From all the above it would appear that no, we cannot be a bit more civil.

Then i'll stand my main point of don't come to the Lakes if you can't be civil.

Whereabouts was it Bungy?

Ullswater area, i'm not going to be too specific to avoid the should/shouldn't be riding there anyway argument.

there is a lack of facts though such as the speed of the cyclist, the control status of the dog etc

You got me there, dog sounded like it was off leash but could have been under control with a little more warning. No idea how fast riders were going, they may well have slowed down (slow to us is still fast to some walkers) or being going slow anyway.

Edit: Friend isn't anti-MTB or having a go at all bikers, they were just taken aback by the response they got.

This.

At least I admit it 😆

But I am the very picture of civility aboard a all terrain bicycle, I must say.

going slow anyway.

Good, the crash won't have caused much damage then.

This is bizare. If you're cycling on a busy (or not busy) path which may have dogs and walkers, ride at the appropriate speed. Its not diffucult, expect that a dog or a person may do something that could result in an accidental collision, if you're riding taking the appropriate care then there should be no harm.
I'm a mountain biker and a dog owner. My dog will roam free in the fields and bridleways near me. He's a tame dog, very well behaved. But at the end of the day, he is a dog and is not aware of the speed of mountain bikers.
If I come across a group of dog walkers while I'm out on my bike, its surely my responsibility to slow down and ensure the safety of all concerned. If I see a squirrel or any other type of animal while I'm out riding I'll slow down so as to ensure I don't hit the animal. (Do other riders just run them over "cause they shouldn't be on my trail"?
If I see people walking on my local mtb trail, I'll stop and nicely advise them that they may be better walking an other area of the woods as fast mountain bikes may spook the dog.
If I was to see a deer (or any other animal) on the road while I'm driving, I'd slow down so as to avoid it. It shouldn't be there, but its my responsibility to avoid it. (Yes I would check my mirror and ensure it is safe for me to slow down first before someone says it)

"It’s very difficult to collide with a walker or a dog or a horse if you slow down to an appropriate pace when passing them."

The difference between wheeled vehicles and quadrupeds or bipeds is that the latter can, and do, lurch sideways. So no matter what pace the vehicle is doing a collision is always possible.

"Good, the crash won’t have caused much damage then."

Perfectly possible to break a collarbone by falling from a stationary bike. I imagine there are plenty of "fell off whilst going slowly" injuries on here.

Dogs do seem to be a must have accessory these days, the ability to control them is a tad less ubiquitous.

Interesting side note - biking in hills around Thousand Oaks (L.A) a couple weeks back and the trail head had a box of bike bells (just like the one's Singletrck sale), free to take and use (sign encouraged this) provided by the local trail groups. Once we started riding the tight twisty shared trails became obvious why.

Perfectly possible to break a collarbone by falling from a stationary bike

I was thinking of the bike.

I'm a dog/dog owner hater.

Probably because the pavement around where I live is covered in their presents. Every time I go for a walk, I have to step in the road to allow a dog walker and 25m lead to use the entire pavement or get a filthy one jumping up on me (normally a horrible bulldog thing, "he's just being friendly").

I used to commute to work on a disused railway (using a Timber Bell so that I could be heard and cycling at a sensible speed), I lost count of the times I was nearly strangled by a lead, chased or had to jump off and place my bike between me and a dog (usually a Staffy). What is even more annoying is when my 4 year old is riding her bike or walking and she is approached/terrified by a dog twice her size.

Cyclists and dogs will always be create conflict because we are the two main groups that use bridleways(etc) and the two groups are not really compatible.

I totally understand why dogs need to run free but take them where they won't bother me. (Doesn't The Highway Code state they should be "under control" on shared use paths?)

Dogs appear to be a fashion accessory nowadays, especially aggressive looking ones that were specifically bred for fighting (they make lovely pets). We only meet the lucky ones that are taken for a walk, the rest are left in the house all day, chewing it to shreds.

Dear dog owners, get your animal under control (not on a 25m lead) and pick up their droppings!

Once the riders had finished their rant they rode off down the trail. No idea if the bike was damaged, or if the rider was injured. Dog suffered minor abrasions but is fine. Riders didn't make any apology for hitting dog or for their offensive language.

I'm a dog owner also and if I see riders approaching I make sure to keep her nearby or put her on the lead. If the riders approach from behind me and give warning I do the same as i'd rather not have either dog or rider injured in any way.

Can we not adopt a more ski piste like mindset where the person ahead has right of way and the over taking rider should only do so if it's safe.

Ullswater area, i’m not going to be too specific to avoid the should/shouldn’t be riding there anyway argument.

Maybe that is a pretty big part of this particular argument.

Would the dog be on skis in this piste rules scenario?

Would the dog be on skis in this piste rules scenario?

There'll be skiing dogs somewhere in the world i'm sure, not quite what I meant but amusing image nonetheless.

I think we're ignoring the key question here: were they on ebikes?

(Sorry, sorry. Riders were obviously dicks, should go without saying. Crashing (as I like to call a low speed topple) is irrelevant - I'd spend a lot of time on rides shouting at mud, roots, twigs, small pebbles etc if I got cross with everything that made me fall off. Yes dogs and their walkers can be a pain. And...?)

Conjecture here but if this was a cheeky trail and the riders were pinning it then they should wind their necks in. Go away and learn from the experience next time the riders could find themselves on the wrong end of a severe legal kicking.

Out of interest did the lady in question report hearing any of the following phrases from the cyclists

- he’s never done that before
- it’s alright he’s only playing
- he doesn’t like dogs you know he always chases them
- he’s never bitten anybody before
- I always have a swear box with me but I’ve forgotten it this one time, sorry about the mess I’ll just have to leave it
- I know he was standing just in front of you with his teeth out barking and drooling but I can assure you he’s fully under control

Just wondering like

“It’s very difficult to collide with a walker or a dog or a horse if you slow down to an appropriate pace when passing them.”

Wife and dog nearly got flattened up in the Hills by two weekend-warriors using it as a downhill trail. There are blind corners/bends, and the gorse and trees can muffle the sound of bikes. Our little dog was loose and sniffing at a bush. Wife was loose too. She was standing on the gully/path with the dog. Hidden from me by gorse. Both of my charges narrowly missed spoiling the rides of two 14-ish stone men on bikes going about 30mph. I was ahead of family when my keen bikey-senses heard a gear shift and pebble strike uphill out of sight , I twigged what was about to happen and fled back to push/grab dog and wife out of the way of the fine gentlemen, mere seconds before they arrived. I may have lost my shit and shouted a lot. One of them dismounted and made towards me, then thought better of it. Not a great experience for any of us. Could have been so much worse had I not twigged and acted.

Sorry, sorry. Riders were obviously dicks, should go without saying.

I think a bit more evidence is required to show that.
Can think of scenarios where the rider is wrong but likewise can think of some where it wouldnt be unreasonable to get pissed off at someones out of control mutt.
Without more information its complete guesswork.

If the dog was off a lead it's completely reasonable to get grumpy about it. I had an incident only last week where I was riding my road bike and saw a dog off the lead, slowed right down (2-3mph) and it still tried running under my wheels.

The world should not be beholden to dog owners who can't take responsibility for their animals or train them properly if they insist on them being off the lead in public places.

I think what we can deduce from all of this is that something happened and some people were rude.

Sobering stuff indeed.

Dog owners are disgusting.

The amount of ppl condoning the crashers response is a disgrace. I don't care if you'll knock a few seconds off your segment time people need to be aware of other users. It's this kind of sh*tty behaviour that gets us a bad rep and banned from certain areas. The folks agreeing with the crasher need to grow up.

Friend isn’t anti-MTB or having a go at all bikers, they were just taken aback by the response they got.

Trouble is (and I know I'm making a somewhat sweeping generalisation here), but dog ownership has got more and more popular, sometimes without (IMO) the new owners feeling it necessary 1. to learn that other people use open spaces, or 2. sometimes feeling that normal standards of dog training or discipline don't apply to them because either they can't be arsed or they have the magical power of the "Extendable Lead" (insert your own voice over here)

I know that I've felt somewhat exasperated sometimes if I'm going through a popular area, when after the 'n'th time I've had to make a judgement call on whether to stop or otherwise get out the way of some untrained cocker-corgi or Yorki-spaniel making a death dive at my wheels or ankles, often accompanied by cries of "Spoodles COME HERE" repeated an an ever increasing volume and pitch by some-one entirely confused about why after missing all that puppy training; the idiot canine won't come to heel like a finalist of One Man and His/Her Dog.

It shouldn't come as a surprise to any one that after a few encounters like that, the owner of any dog that finally, perhaps inevitably causes a crash is going to get a mouthful.

Munrobiker and nickc spot on.

Trouble is (and I know I’m making a somewhat sweeping generalisation here), but dog ownership has got more and more popular, sometimes without (IMO) the new owners feeling it necessary 1. to learn that other people use open spaces, or 2. sometimes feeling that normal standards of dog training or discipline don’t apply to them because either they can’t be arsed

To be fair, I reckon you could probably just replace “dog” with “bike” and post that verbatim on a walking forum without much dissent.

The world should not be beholden to dog owners who can’t take responsibility for their animals or train them properly if they insist on them being off the lead in public places.

This

Its saddening to read all the anti dog / dog owner sentiment.

Its as if some riders think they have a god given priority over everyone else to hoon around the countryside.

they sound like entitled ****ts to me

To be fair, I reckon you could probably just replace “dog” with “bike” and post that verbatim on a walking forum without much dissent.

You're probably right. But my bike neither shites, bites nor veers uncontrollably in front of folk. 😊

Ullswater area, i’m not going to be too specific to avoid the should/shouldn’t be riding there anyway argument.

Maybe that is a pretty big part of this particular argument.

This does seem to be getting glossed over. If it was a footpath, the bikers are so far in the wrong it's not funny.

Those trail dogs are disgusting too.
Pooping everywhere. It's just gross. Keep them elsewhere. Locked up in your garage or something.

Some of the anti dog ranting sounds a bit too much like anti bike ranting from car owners. From the evidence we have and my life experiences I reckon there's more chance it was the bikers being dicks.

I have a dog. She's stupid because she has a brain the size of a strawberry. I also have a bike. I am not stupid. When I am riding the bike on shared paths, I always expect any dog to immediately hurl itself into my path, exactly like my dog would do, given the opportunity. Therefore, I always give a cheery shout and make sure the dog walker can see I've stopped pedalling and am slowing down, the dog walker should now be fairly certain I am aware of them and their beloved pooch/wolf pack. I generally then slow to a pace where I can stop dead in anticipation of the dog chucking itself under my Magic Mary unless said canine is on a lead and out of range.

When I am walking my dog of little brain, I am aware of approaching cyclists and I will hold my dog's collar until cyclist has passed safely.

All that being said, most cyclists don't seem to slow down, or acknowledge my restraining the dog. However the last time I cycled up the national cycle route near me, a gentleman with a pack of huskies made a massive deal of putting all five of them on their leads, while I waited patiently. He then yelled at me as I pedalled off "Can't you people find somewhere else to ride your bloody bikes?"

Dog walkers, cyists, drivers, doesn't matter. You can't have an argument with an idiot. There will always be a **** who is right, regardless.

A person who is going faster and/or has more mass should be responsible for not crashing into those going slower and/or have lower mass.
Dog walkers annoy me sometimes, but generally they're polite if I'm polite to them.

A person who is going faster and/or has more mass should be responsible for not crashing into those going slower and/or have lower mass.

This entirely - they are the vulnerable trail user, just as we are the vulnerable trail user on an offroad byway with 4x4 traffic, or tarmac roads.

Slowing down, stopping if necessary, being nice and saying hi costs you nothing.

Walkers without dogs are just as capable of moving unpredictably. I'm much more confident passing a sheep than a human.

You can’t have an argument with an idiot.

Are you new to the internet? 😀

The amount of ppl condoning the crashers response is a disgrace. I don’t care if you’ll knock a few seconds off your segment time people need to be aware of other users. It’s this kind of sh*tty behaviour that gets us a bad rep and banned from certain areas. The folks agreeing with the crasher need to grow up.

Just for clarity, when you refer to the crasher are you referring to the dog or the cyclist?

Follow up question: why?

Dog owners are disgusting.

Many Certain Types say that very thing about cyclists.
I’m a dog-owning cyclist. (Self-loathing intensifies, no not really)

*Edit, Pleased to see I wasn’t by any stretch the first to note

I reckon you could probably just replace “dog” with “bike”

I'm not on the end of a retractable lead, don't shit wherever I feel like, and generally come when I'm called (I'm good like that) 🙂

Slowing down, stopping if necessary, being nice and saying hi costs you nothing.

Well I don't know, could cost you a PR or God forbid, a KOM!.. 😲

When having it down any trail anywhere that is not a dedicated mountain bike trail the rider should be aware of other trail users and act appropriately.

If I'm clipping down a Lakes descent and see walkers I take care, if they have a dog I pretty much expect if to change direction at any point.

The rider and their friends were in the wrong for reacting aggressively.

Your friend might well have been able to do more to avoid the incident, that is unclear.

I am constantly saddened by some cyclists attitudes and behaviours and heartened by others.

The same can be said for car drivers, walkers and anyone else I come across while riding.

Try not to become that what you fight against.

Unfortunately the more people that swing a leg over a bike the greater the number of people that act poorly and give the whole a bad rep.

Be ambassadors not arseholes.

Not being judgemental here but I always slow down for walkers, dogs, horses etc.

Safer for me and them. Also makes riding the natural trails I ride a less contentious, relaxing experience. Which is what I am after.

Rule 1 stuff I suppose.

Not sure I understand the negative stuff about dogs. Don't have one but anything negative they do is down to some bad owners not the dogs.

ADS678 He was on a motorbike not a bike when you ride off road on a motorbike it is called greenlining that is why I got soaked he was doing at least 30mph cheers.

Well I don’t know, could cost you a PR or God forbid, a KOM!.. 😲

Or you could be riding to work and get a little bored with slowing to allow people to call their dogs.....

“Fido, come here.”

....stopping to allow people to collect their dogs.

“FIDO. Stop barking at the man!”

I have more conversations with dog walkers than any other outdoor group because they are constantly the inconsiderate group. I’m normally polite. They are normally polite. But I’d rather not keep stopping.

(Only one dog, a Jack Russell, tried to throw itself under my wheels in an hour long ride this morning.)