[Closed] Can you notice the difference?

QR to 20mm - definitely.
Taper vs straight - no idea, still on straight steerers.
Steel - dunno, never ridden one
Ti - dunno, never ridden one
Pick up - i can tell when pawls are broken in my hub so maybe
crank stiffness - yup, saints made my feet hurt, xt's didnt.

15mm vs QR - yes

Taper vs straight - yes

The spring of steel - depends who made it

The comfort of Ti - depends who made it

Pick up - not really

Crank stiffness - yes

15mm vs QR - yes, loads

Taper vs straight - no

Spring of steel/comfort of Ti - these are very dependent on the build. I've certainly enjoyed the spring from a nice steel frame, when it takes and gives back in a corner. But I've also had a Ti frame which was ridiculously harsh 😉

Pick up - yup

Cranks - yup, although only comparing square taper and HTII/X-type, and depends on the frame a lot too.

A lot of these things you really only notice when riding comparable bikes back to back though. It'd probably only be the 15/20mm vs QR that I reckon I might spot on a blind test, and that's definitely not certain!

650b to 26"? 😕

QR - 20 NOPE and i even have a set of flexy sids

taper v straight - nope
Steel i can tell over things but may be the frame- it was more springy than my hydroformed alloy one but cannot tell it from carbon.
Pick up - yes v broken freehub in general from shimano XT to Hope XC and pro 2 NO
never used ti

I haver a square taper SS, XTR on shimano BB and XTR on Hope- cannot tell part in "feel".

20mm vs QR - yes
Taper vs straight - not really
The spring of steel - yes but so many other variables
The comfort of Ti - again, on MTBs yes, less so on some roadies
Pick up - mebbe but it's not important
Crank stiffness - definitely

15mm vs QR - yes

Taper vs straight - dunno, never ridden a tapered

The spring of steel - definitely good on some, definitely bad on others

The comfort of Ti - dunno never ridden a Ti

Pick up - only going from very cheap hubs

Crank stiffness - no, too many other things flex before the cranks (if we're talking crank arms)

15mm vs QR

Taper vs straight

The spring of steel

The comfort of Ti

Pick up

Crank stiffness

Am I insensitive

I'm sceptical that anyone can tell.

To all that have responded "yes" above; would you be confident in a double-blind test? Can you really/honestly tell?

Or can you tell the difference when you know what you're riding?

15mm vs QR - Never compared 15mm & QR. 20mm & QR - big difference. 15mm & 20mm negligible

Taper vs straight - Yes very obvious if you try 2 otherwise identical forks.

The spring of steel - Yes

The comfort of Ti - Yes, although my Ti frame is apparently at the noodly/comfy end of the spectrum.

Pick up Yes. Very annoying on my DT 240s with the old 18T ratchets. riding tight, techy, thrutchy trails of trying to get started on steep tech climbs, it become blindingly obvious.

Crank stiffness. Notice it on a first ride when I change them, after that, not really. (although the set of Saints I had briefly were like standing on girders - quite impressive!)

JAG - Member

I'm sceptical that anyone can tell.

Can you tell the difference between a 2ply DH tyre and a single ply xc tyre?

my bikes grow 'organically' by that I mean I purchase a new component to replace and old worn or broken onw; usually an upgrade is incorporated. I have done all of these and noticed a change to them all.
key difference my QR fork flexed so much my rotor scrapped the fork leg. didn't happen on QR15!

I think you can notice quite a bit, but you also need to decide if it bothres you...

QR Vs 20mm: Yeah definately noticed, prefered 20mm but I was happy enough with QR's... 15mm? Meh, not much better or worse than 20mm, just another pointless tweener std.

Taper Vs Straight: a Bit I suppose, not really, dual crown forks though I really did notice the greater stiffness, but again all three are more than acceptable IMO...

[i]"The spring of steel"[/i] perhaps more the use of thinner walled tubing, not all steel is the same, steel frames with thinner walled tubes I notice the compliance a bit perhaps and obviously the weight, but a cheap, stiff frame will still do for me...

[i]"The comfort of Ti"[/i] TBH no idea, I've sat on one Ti road bike and rolled round a car park, no interest in owning one, so can't really comment TBH...

Hub Pick up? not really something I tend to notice, can't really see how it matters much TBH so long as it works.

Crank "stiffness"? yes, especially when I went from Square taper to HT2 although I believe this is more an improvement in the connection of the arms to the axle than the arms becoming stiffer...

I think it's as much about a rider's ability to adapt to the way a bike works as it is about the mechanical characteristics of the bike, there are very few
Unridable bikes...

[i]Am I insensitive or are we talking miniscule differences that most people wouldn't either?[/i]

No. Yes.

Of course people will say they can feel the difference, becusae they've been told there's a difference, and that that difference is a good thing.

I'm not saying they're lying, they may actually think that they can, because we are very sugestoble creatures. However given the number of variables and the tiny absolute differences in stiffness, 'spring', etc etc, they really probably can't.

15mm vs QR - Yes.

Taper vs straight - went hand in hand with an increase in stanchion diameter for me which is on the whole a very noticeable improvement. We're expecting more and more from single crown forks, they need all the help they can get. The increasing in headtube size and bearing size also has it's advantages too.

The spring of steel and the comfort of Ti. Not going to comment on that one.

Pick up - Yes. Technical climb, hop back wheel up ledge or rock split second to engage power to rear wheel to stop yourself sliding back. Crank turns a noticeable fraction of a turn before engaging... grrr! or put the power on suddenly and the crank turns a bit before engaging, very noticeable.

Crank stiffness - I remember having a pair of square taper FSA Power Pro cranks which you could see flex. New style cranks are stiffer and the BB/axle/crank design as a whole is a massive improvement.

15mm/20mm vs QR - Yep, noticed a considerable difference between QR and 20mm. Have no idea why 15mm exists, other than to help Fox/Shimano differentiate between fork models.

Taper vs straight - Tough one. My 140mm 29er Revs are stiffer than my 150mm 26er 20mm Revs with a straight steerer. They're on a par with my old Pikes, but I don't know if that's due to to the steerer or the chassis itself.

The spring of steel - I wouldn't call it "spring", but my steel hardtail seems to dampen the terrain reasonably well. Apparently it would be better steel if it were made of posh steel and not made of not quite as posh steel.

The comfort of Ti - No idea. It's a lot of money though for something that'll have all the standards marketed out of it in a couple of weeks if Trek/SRAM have their way.

Pick up - Yep. I prefer a sharp pickup, anything else feels lazy to me.

Crank stiffness - Yes. I noticed a difference between old and new XT and SRAM BB30 cranks are stiffer still. Do I prefer a stiffer crank? Only if the ease of maintenance and BB bearing life is comparable with XT, otherwise it's not for me.

My old steel Kona seemed to flex more under pedalling than the alloy bike that replaced it. In other words the alloy bike was better

[quote=IHN ]Am I insensitive or are we talking miniscule differences that most people wouldn't either?
No. Yes.
Of course people will say they can feel the difference, becusae they've been told there's a difference, and that that difference is a good thing.
I'm not saying they're lying, they may actually think that they can, because we are very sugestoble creatures. However given the number of variables and the tiny absolute differences in stiffness, 'spring', etc etc, they really probably can't.

some people can isolate and identify small changes better than others.

If I can hear a high pitched sound and you can't does that mean I'm lying about it or my hearing is more sensitive than yours?

I think you'd need to try the different set ups back to back on otherwise identical rigs to be certain of the differences.

I wouldn't like to say if I could notice a difference with all of those, but I can say I'd prefer hubs without better pickup than the ones I have.

IHN - Member

Of course people will say they can feel the difference, becusae they've been told there's a difference, and that that difference is a good thing.

they may actually think that they can, because we are very sugestoble creatures

Can you really/honestly tell?

Have got three (possibly four) bikes that are quite different and yet important components e.g.

forks
wheels
drivetrain

are all interchangeable. Can make any of them a little (or a lot) different simply by swapping components

Frankly I find it incredible how anyone could not notice the difference

I can feel the difference in the back end of an inbred vs my soma b-side, that might just be new bike giddyness though! I should be able to see if I can feel a difference between an exotic carbon rigid with qr and a niner rdo (tapered with 15mm) at some point. Assuming my front brake finger stops hurting (PSA don't use fingers to slow rotors down).

[b]QR to 15mm/20mm*[/b] - definitely yes, for shorter forks I notice but it doesn't bother me, for longer forks yes, my old QR 32s were awful!.

[b]Taper vs Straight*[/b] - yes, but it's quite subtle, I think the beefier headtube has a lot to do with it too.

[b]Steel[/b] - depends on how it's been built

[b]Ti[/b] - as above

[b]Pick up**[/b] - yes yes yes!

[b]Crank stiffness[/b] - yes I can notice it, but I don't care

* Riding a lot of Cannondales and Lefties in late 90's and mid 00's made noodly normal forks even more noticeable.

** I get really annoyed by my 240s with the standard ratchet, and even PRO 2's feel like there's a big dead zone, this probably comes form a life of trials when younger and havign 70+ POE for years. Not really an issue on the road or fast flat offroad but slow speed techy bits definitely like a quick pickup.

15mm vs QR - no

Taper vs straight - no

The spring of steel - sort of

The comfort of Ti - sort of

Pick up - not really

Crank stiffness - no

95% of riders can't tell. It's a lot of money to spend so that 5% of people can notice.

15mm vs QR - yes, very obvious

Taper vs straight - not so much

The spring of steel - too dependant on frame design

The comfort of Ti - as above

Pick up - yes, but not sure it bothers me

Crank stiffness - only from square taper to splined jobbies.

I recently built a wheel with a wider/ stiffer rim and I was gobsmacked how different it felt.

15mm vs QR - yes, front and back

Taper vs straight - no

The spring of steel - impossible to compare without identically designed frames using different materials but from my experience yes there is a difference.

The comfort of Ti - never tried

Pick up - what? - Definately notice when switching beween bikes but soon adjust.

Crank stiffness - Crank arm no, BB yes - press fit and outboard is stiffer than square taper.

Could also add:
Stem stiffness - no
Carbon handlebar comfort - Slight improvement
Carbon seatpost comfort - not off road, on yes.

If I can hear a high pitched sound and you can't does that mean I'm lying about it or my hearing is more sensitive than yours?

What may be happening is you can hear a noise that is not there as it seems a fairly even split between those who can tell and those who cannot

Take cranks

give they are made of metal the frame and the tyre will deflect , from the forces, when you pedal long before the crank will. Given this I remain sceptical than anyone can tell a crank is stifer. I doubt anyone here can actually genuinely flex the metal ALONE in either crank as the tensile strength will be measured in tonnes.

FWIW I have QR and 20 mm and the 20 mm has bigger stanchions and i still cannot tell. perhaps if i rode that bike with QR forks I could but I have never tried this

15mm vs QR - Taper vs straight - Both of these upgrades happened simulateneously so impossible for me to say which had more, if any effect but the combination was noticeable.

The spring of steel - Yep, moved from an ally rockhopper to a Soul and yeah its definetly there! Was the most noticeable difference other than the geometry.

The comfort of Ti - Never tried...

Pick up - what? Oh hell yes, massive difference between the pickup on my bonty race wheels and my pro 2's the bontys feel like they take a good 20% roatation to engage whereas the hopes feel more like 5%. Very, very noticable for me.

Crank stiffness - only ever had HTII BB's so wouldnt know.

15mm vs QR - twisting of lowers yes

Taper vs straight - not tried taper

The spring of steel - hmm possibly

The [s]comfort of[/s] spring of Ti - yes rear end of my Genesis ti is too flexy 🙁

Pick up - yes when on tricky stuff

Crank stiffness - nope but jammed on square taper cranks are an arse to remove

old, past it, over weight mainly wheels on the ground rider

Edit -

Stem stiffness - no

give they are made of metal the frame and the tyre will deflect , from the forces, when you pedal long before the crank will. Given this I remain sceptical than anyone can tell a crank is stifer. I doubt anyone here can actually genuinely flex the metal ALONE in either crank as the tensile strength will be measured in tonnes.

I've ridden saint cranks and XT cranks installed into the same bike, same pedals same shoes, same feet, on the same track, at the same speed a day or so apart.

Saints made my feet hurt, XT's didn't.

15mm vs QR- damn straight. Though it doesn't really [i]bother[/i] me most of the time, I get used to whichever fork I'm riding pretty fast. Depends on the fork too, my QR revs were stiffer than a 15mm 32 because Fox are into being able to sell "improved stiffness" while Rockshox are more into making good forks.

Taper vs straight - too many other differences in my forks. I think my Pikes use the taper to save weight rather than add stiffs. My straight steerer lyriks are stiffer but then they weigh about 40% more, not useful.

The spring of steel - wouldn't call it spring, but yes, on a good, light frame. No, on a heavier frame. My BFe was as lively as a brick.

The comfort of Ti - yep but again depends on the frame, my Ragley doesn't have that much of it really, except when compared to my stupidly stiff Mmmbop. My old Soda was much softer and fitted the ti stereotype better

Pick up - Another "notice it but don't care"- I have a 10 degree upgrade in 2 of my DT hubs and standard in the 3rd, it only makes any practical difference if I'm ratcheting over things and even then it's not important. But it does feel nicer.Once it's past a certain point I don't think it matters

Crank stiffness - can't say I do these days but I think all modern cranks are probably sensibly stiff. Pretty obvious on my old square taper exages. I guess I notice flexy stuff, I don't notice the difference between 2 stiff but differently stiff things?

All the stiffness stuff is basically hung on some ropey perceptions of what's good and bad- stiffer isn't automatically better, it's just easy to sell. Unless you're making a steel frame when it's suddenly bad. Coming from a motorbike background, production bikes reached a highpoint of stiffness in about 2000 and then we went "**** me, that's too stiff" and backed off. Pushbikes still seem to be in the stage before that where everyone wants more stiffs but it won't go on forever.

15mm vs QR: Nope
Taper vs straight: Nope
The spring of steel: Yep - even different builds of steel
The comfort of Ti: Yep (or steel for that matter)
Pick up: Yep
Crank stiffness: Not tried anything other than Shimano yet.

20mm vs QR - totally

Taper vs straight - no idea, never ridden exactly the same fork between the 2 standards on the same frame

The spring of steel - prefer to call it flex, and yes but some steel frames have less flex than many Alu frames

The comfort of Ti - as above.

Pick up - definitely, even more so when just mucking around jumping, manualing etc.

Crank stiffness - yes.. definitely. HTII isn't inherently stiffer than SQ taper was though.. many Old skool SQ taper DH cranks were stiffer than XT HTII for instance. XT to Saint the difference is really noticeable.

It's not on your list, but one of the biggest differences I've felt was going from 135 QR to 12x142 on a hardtail. Same frame & wheel but with the different dropouts and hub adapters.

I couldn't believe how much stiffer the rear end was.
Incredible how much less 'twang' there was from the back end.
It feels more direct on descents, especially berms but it's also harsher.

Pushbikes still seem to be in the stage before that where everyone wants more stiffs

Fair point chief, I was talking about mountainbikes but said pushbikes so yeah. And let's say "most people" instead of everyone. But [i]apart[/i] from that...

I can't remember any big mountain bike manufacturer saying "we've carefully made this bike more flexible because we think it's better for grip" anyway. Some individuals, like nico volauvent... But I think it'd take a pretty brave product lead and marketing team.

Sell that to Surly 😉

QR to 20mm: Oh my goodness, night and day

straight to taper: more of the above, fork goes where I point it.

Spring of Steel: hmmm, my Shan is the comfiest steel bike I've ridden, but it has no seat or chain stay bridges which probably make more difference

Spring of Ti: Yep, I can remember my first ride on a Hummer, checked a couple of times to see if I had a soft rear tyre, carpet ride bike.

Pick up; yep coming out of turns...Power! 😆

Crank stiffness: hmm not so much, went from I beam raceface turbines back to XT, and can't feel it TBH.

142x12: only a couple of rides, I'm not sure what's going on back there that's different, may let some pressure out of the tyre though

Qr to bolt through? no
Tapered steerer? no
Steel springiness? switching from an inbred to a niner air 9 yes
Ti? not tried one
Pick up? only used shimano and hope so not really.
Crank stiffness? no

15mm vs QR - yes, very clearly.

Tapered vs straight - again very clear esp on rigid forks - they flex on the blades rather than the crown steerer. On suspension forks, much less brake flutter, and twang through rocky sections.

Springiness is down to how the bike is engineered/designed rather than just a material. I just replaced an old alu SS frame with a steel one. Alu one was very noticeably softer (in every direction).
Tyre volume and pressure will make more difference though.

Pick up - swapped standard ratchet rings in one set of DT 240 hubs for the faster pick up - not fussed (and hated the noise).

Crank stiffness - not between HTII types I've tried, but did when I went from SqT to M950 XTR original HT cranks.

142x12 on suspension frames - definitely. Hardtails - probably not.

QR both ends to bolt through both ends was a big improvement. Even noticeable while cornering.

Tapered steerer. Cant tell
Pickup. Not really, unless I really think about it.
Cranks. Yes.
Ti and steel. Not ridden a steel for 18 years so cant remember. Never tried ti.

Some of you should learn to recognise hype 😀

Bolt though is a big improvement over QR, especially on longer travel forks.

Not so sure about the tapered steerer. I can see it making sense on paper, I just can't feel it when riding.

Steel; I was surprised how much difference there was between my BFe and my Slackline 853. The BFe felt heavy, wooden and a bit dead / harsh. The Skackline felt much more lively but I wouldn't say it feels springy compared to an ali frame.

Not tried a Ti frame so can't comment.

Pick up. I've never had a hub with more than 4 pawls so they all feel the same to me.

I think I can tell some of them... My main bike is 8 years old in a couple of months and I change bikes infrequently - so I don't think it's a case of emperors new clothes.

15mm vs QR - most definitely but I went QR to 24mm first and that was a huge difference. Can also tell difference between current 20mm and 15mm axles on my bikes, although both different forks so that might be a lot of it
Taper vs straight - Not ridden enough to make judgement.
The spring of steel - massive difference and even between different qualities of steel.
The comfort of Ti - huge difference alloy to Ti and even high-end steel to Ti.
Pick up - Yes, but this don't bother me much
Crank stiffness - from square taper through 24mm to PF30 never noticed a blind bit of difference other than non BSA BBs - Yes, but doesn't bother me much.

I think part of reason I can tell is down to mass though. I'm a heavy SOB at the mo.

Depends on what bike and how hard it's being ridden.

Big bike in the alps? All of them.

Small bike on XC trails? Some, but not enough that it makes much difference.

Squirrel - Member
Some of you should learn to recognise hype

I do and ignore it.

Can I specifically tell individual differences?? No. But overall is my new bike with tapered steerer, 15mm front and 12x142 rear better in all departments than the old bike with 1 1/8, 32mm forks and QR? Without a doubt, especially downhill. Couldn't tell you which bit made the most difference though!

change from cheap 'fixie' cranks to proper track cranks was like fiding another 15 watts every commute. Normal now though. 🙁

15mm vs QR - Yes, quite easy to tell when you tracking in a rut or hard into a berm.

Taper vs straight - dunno?, never rode a bike with tapered.

The spring of steel - Yes…so much yes, my custom steel (Columbus & True Temper) Soulcraft.

The comfort of Ti - Not so much on my Cove Hummer but definitely without any possible doubt when comparing my Ti Tripster to my Bro's alloy Tripster.

Pick up - Yes, my Chris King R45 hub on my Tripster is so much better than the Hope on my Cove Hummer, i recently stripped my Hope down as i thought it had a broken pawl as the pick up is so inferior feeling to the CK R45- there was no broken pawl in the Hope. Previously to having the King hub i was perfectly happy with the Hope pick up but i now realise there is better.

Crank stiffness - yes, but you also have to take into account the BB used (if square taper) and you'll need to use the same frame as a datum which would rule out comparing different standards.

I can't remember any big mountain bike manufacturer saying "we've carefully made this bike more flexible because we think it's better for grip" anyway. Some individuals, like nico volauvent... But I think it'd take a pretty brave product lead and marketing team.

Voila!

http://www.commencal-store.co.uk/PBCPPlayer.asp?ID=1481782

Didn't Fox make the 40 less stiff because they were too far the other way?

How did the top race guys in the 90s and early 2000s manage without all this stuff? I'm with the OP on this one, although you'd be hard pressed to buy a new bike now without some of those features.

Like a lot of things, once you 'learn' to recognise crank flex it begins to really annoy you. But if you never know about it, you can live a cheaper life of blissful ignorance.

I can say yes to most of your questions, but I'm damned if I can feel the difference between suspension traits. Cheap shock vs posh shock, single pivot vs VW link etc I'd never be able to tell in a blind test.

Re: Pickup - yes I can feel the difference but it doesn't bother me a lot. Like someone else mentioned, for me this comes from riding trials. But most times if you want to put power down, you've already 'preloaded' the chain so there's no real delay in pickup. I would much prefer a dependable hub with 20 pickups than a hub with 50 points of engagement that skips all the time.

On the being able to tell front there's a bit in the Phil Burt Bike Fit book discussing how some people are super sensitive to changes in bike set up and others basically don't notice it. This is partly in the context of picking up strains and so on of their position is off but I imagine it's a similar thing.

Of the listed things the only one I've got comparable experience of is pick-up and I definitely notice that in slow speed bits where your having to constantly give a quick crank turn to keep momentum up.

15mm vs QR - Totes Amazeballs

Taper vs straight - Mega Boke

The spring of steel - Fo Sho

The comfort of Ti - wallowy crap

Pick up - what? - yep

Crank stiffness - Yep, until my cranks fell off on my PF30

chiefgrooveguru - Member

Voila!

http://www.commencal-store.co.uk/PBCPPlayer.asp?ID=1481782

I'm going to kiss Max Commencal. I'm still not going to buy one of his bikes though.

How did the top race guys in the 90s and early 2000s manage without all this stuff?

I bet anyone in the WC DH top 50 on a modern bike would beat Vouilloz at his best on a year 2000 bike down any of the gnarlier WC tracks. But if everyone is on a bike with less good technology then it's a level playing field.

I was sceptical about steel vs alloy hardtail frames - I bought a Soul because of the geometry/purpose/reputation, the steel was incidental. It managed to feel smoother over the rough yet easier to keep on track than the alloy frame it replaced, like letting a few psi out of the tyres and making the forks less bendy. (It's not steel vs alloy though, it's certain steel vs certain alloy, you can easily make a steel frame feel utterly rigid).

I was sceptical about stiffer cranks - then I broke my Truvativ ones and was shocked to feel an obvious change with the Zees that replaced them, much more responsive.

The biggest difference I've noticed is from a cheap stem and XC bars to a Renthal stem and Easton Havens - they felt about five times as stiff - massively obvious! However, I swapped those carbon bars for the alloy ones last year and they feel identical.

Some riders just don't feel these subtleties and that doesn't make them bad riders - I know I'm very sensitive to this stuff. I'm sure there are thousands of quicker MTBers than me who are oblivious to gear differences that I notice. I notice my tyre pressures being out by as little as 10%. To be honest, it's bloody annoying!

I bet anyone in the WC DH top 50 on a modern bike would beat Vouilloz at his best on a year 2000 bike down any of the gnarlier WC tracks. But if everyone is on a bike with less good technology then it's a level playing field.

Be nice if there was a way of placing a bet and holding your challenge for real..

using the longest running track on the circuit, Mont Saint Anne as an example. Vouilloz used to put almost 30 seconds into 50th place in his day. the difference between 1st and 50th last year at MSA was closer to 20 seconds. if you are correct you are saying Vouilloz on his 190mm travel single pivot Bos engineering damped Aluminium V-process would have been 20seconds slower than hill riding his 205mm travel rockshox damped Aluminium single pivot Nukeproof.

Personally I think you're massively underestimating just how good Nico actually was and also how much more consistently winning in DH has to do with a riders mindset than the equipment.

[b]So 15mm/20mm vs QR.[/b]

Explain to me where the flex is in the QR system?

To my mind it either involves the QR not gripping the dropout which would lead to wear (which I've never seen)

Or that the hub itself flexes, which considering that most are made of non flexible aluminium alloys I'm not getting either?

just how good Nico actually was

Best DH rider of all time IMHO.

Be nice if there was a way of placing a bet and holding your challenge for real..
using the longest running track on the circuit, Mont Saint Anne as an example. Vouilloz used to put almost 30 seconds into 50th place in his day. the difference between 1st and 50th last year at MSA was closer to 20 seconds. if you are correct you are saying Vouilloz on his 190mm travel single pivot Bos engineering damped Aluminium V-process would have been 20seconds slower than hill riding his 205mm travel rockshox damped Aluminium single pivot Nukeproof.
Personally I think you're massively underestimating just how good Nico actually was and also how much more consistently winning in DH has to do with a riders mindset than the equipment.

Fair enough, it's an exaggeration! But my point that incremental improvements do make a useful difference when stacked up still stands, even if it just means that Nico may have been beaten by the 3rd place rider. And I know Nico is still known as a brilliant test rider, who can not only feel the difference between different components or set-ups but also do such consistent runs on a track that the differences can be measured on a stopwatch.

I was surprised at how much effort Zink put into his suspension tuning to let him hit the huge jumps at Rampage without overshooting, coming up short or getting bucked.

BMXing has made me ultra sensitive to any any changes, to the point i could tell the difference in back end length between fresh chain, and pulling it back to take out the "stretch" that occured, maybe 3-5mm changes in CS length, but could definitely detect it.

It obviously also comes down to what you're doing with the bike, if MTBing for you is just comfortably spinning the pedals, seated, on fireroads, you are going to notice sod all difference, most probly still not going to notice that much if you venture off the fireroad, but are a bit of a mincer.

The faster, harder, the more you do with the bike, the more you're going to notice, the more you become the pilot, rather than a passenger, the more things are going to matter.

The you get those wildcards who ride the shonkiest stuff, flat out, who don't sense differences.

20mm and 15mm vs QR - Yes, my big rotors don't rub any more.

Taper vs straight - Yes, less for twang under heavy braking.

The spring of steel - Yes, I feel much better after a long ride on my steel hardtail than on my super stiff aluminium hardtail. There are big differences in frame design though.

The comfort of Ti - possibly, but I bought a Lynskey and it snapped.

Pick up - No.

Crank stiffness - Definitely.

All the positives (and maybe the snapped frame?!) may be as a result of me, fully kitted up tipping the scales at about 20 stone.

I have been known to forget to unlock my forks and not notice until the bottom of Homebaked at Gisburn.
So no, to all of above 😀

20mm vs QR - When I first went to 20mm from QR I didn't really notice. Then I went back to QR and they felt very noodley, 20mm definitely track better.

Taper vs straight - Not noticed tbh.

The spring of steel - more frame design

The comfort of Ti - not ridden a ti frame but again it's surely it's down to design.

Pick up - what? Noticed the difference between my cheap SS hub and my Hope hub.

Crank stiffness - not a massive difference.

OS bars - again not a massive difference.

richpips - Member

So 15mm/20mm vs QR.

Explain to me where the flex is in the QR system?

I am far from an expert, but drawing parallels with motorbikes: My understanding is that the main difference is in torsional stiffness, mainly the front forks (it should be possible to design a rear swing-arm that is stiff without having to beef up the spindle, IMHO). A QR allows the fork legs to 'hinge' a small amount around the dropout and rotate slightly, whereas a rigid spindle, solidly mounted to the fork legs acts as a stiffener which prevents the fork legs rotating, so increasing the torsional stiffness betweeen the wheel and the bars, all else being equal. (Stanchion diameter & fork crown design are, of course, also very important)

As a demo, wedge the front wheel into a grid, or something and observe the amount of flex as you try and turn the handlebars.

The faster, harder, the more you do with the bike, the more you're going to notice, the more you become the pilot, rather than a passenger, the more things are going to matter.
The you get those wildcards who ride the shonkiest stuff, flat out, who don't sense differences.

I'd always assumed the 'wildcards' outnumber the sensitive yet quick riders - maybe it's just that the latter group don't talk about it that much?

There's a lot of force going through a MTB if you ride it hard and the levers applying the forces (wheels, fork, swing arm, bars, etc) are long and bike frames and components are very light - it stands to reason that things will bend! And when you're riding fast it doesn't take much divergence from your line to result in an unplanned dismount...

A tiny bit of flex induced divergence will not phase most fast riders.

As for your previous assumptions. You get very fast riders who are super sensitive/picky about set-up/component choice. (Vouilloz would be a classic example) and other very fast riders who are far less interested and just charge regardless.

As for your previous assumptions. You get very fast riders who are super sensitive/picky about set-up/component choice. (Vouilloz would be a classic example) and other very fast riders who are far less interested and just charge regardless.

Exactly my point. You only have to look at F1 to see that amongst a load of very skilled drivers, some are outstanding when their car is perfect for their driving and the track and conditions but are awful when it isn't but some can manhandle a very difficult set-up to a great result yet not go that much quicker with a better car.

No. I really don't have to look at F1.

it's dull and has very little in common with how to ride a bicycle well...

Of the things listed in the OP there are one or two where I haven't the experience to know if I'd tell the difference (Ti, tapered steerers). There are several where I really haven't noticed the difference (QR vs thru axle, different crank axles/BBs, pick up).

I have however had several Alu hardtails and a Cotic Soul (so a steel frame). There have been occasions where I have noticed the difference, but for me when I'm noticing its properties, steel feels flexy rather than springy or anything positive sounding. Generally it's only been something I've noticed when I've switched between frame types.