[Closed] Calling all parents- please answer this survey on childrens bicycles.

Done.

Done.

Done.

Done 🙂 Although I couldn't fill in the 'how long' bit properly as I'm on about 6 months at the moment

Done. Although the copy paste link wasn't working.

Thanks, really appreciate it!

It's not that hard....

crank length, chainstay length, kid weight tuned suspension and mineral oil brakes (if you believe as I do that kids should maintain their own bikes with help)

OK, done. Minor point - why wait til they are 4? Mine showed an interest in aesthetics before that. Great idea about the bonding.

Done.

My pet hate is grip shifters - I think trigger shifters should be there from day one.

Done

And as above ^^^^ from Steve

Done - forgot about the bastard grip shifters. Little fingers much prefer trigger shift.

My lad has never said it to me, but has told my mum how much he enjoyed his evenings tinkering in the garage while we put my old bits on an Inbred frame for him.

Big thanks for all the responses!
It's already painting a positive picture, and reinforces most of our thoughts.

Yes, agree with the grip shifter issue. My boy can move it into a harder gear easily but cannot get back into first. He tried the trigger on my bikes and has no problem. Fortunately I have some 9sp kit that I will upgrade him to.
It would also be lovely to be able to save weight by having shorter crank arme available for external BB's rather than the dead weight square taper and cheap cranks.

But, done.

It does appear that there is a lack of components for the children's demographic (across the ages), mainly cranks.
The answers are fairly broad now which is a spanner in the works.

Big thanks for all the responses!
It's already painting a positive picture, and reinforces most of our thoughts.

Yep, let me add grip shifter's to the what's wrong!

What I really liked was your suggestion that kids should be interested/active in the maintenance and tinkering....

Not long ago on another forum I was wondering what age parents let kids play with DOT fluid. Now my 7yr old is not capable of bleeding brakes alone... or I'd certainly check before letting him ride.(I check his QR and sometimes it's a good job) ... but he is more than capable of learning and trying....

"Trying" involves brake fluid getting everywhere.... so I'd prefer to chuck some pads (if I hadn't removed them) than have a kid with DOT fluid in their eyes and over skin!

When we changed his headset bearings for example he was involved.... (and actually helpful) He managed to support the forks and saved me removing the brakes etc. .. learned why we don't spray water into the headset ...

Anyway, maintenance aside there would seem little point trying to produce the same general rubbish as the "big name" kids bikes.

What prevents me getting a decent trail bike at the moment is all the trouble parents seem to have with getting suspension dialled in.

I wouldn't really want to buy a transition complete bike as the forks are sector silver and many parents then seem to have to sort out the rear shock as well.... that leaves me finding shocks and forks then getting them tuned.... (I'll pass on colour/decals ... that is something might be discussed if I had a choice)

To me [b]the most attractive package[/b] is a kit bike with frame, forks and rear shock....and preferably cranks...

After that I think the Bird model works really well... where you can basically choose a groupset... but I'd be as happy just sourcing the groupset (as there no way small UK manufacturers can compete with CRC etc.)

I suppose you already know but Trailcraft are doing a FS this year...
I see a surprising number of their HT's at kids XC races along with Hope Academy bikes.

Good points above - I forgot to add gripshift to my moans box. Mine are on shimano trigger shift and much prefer it. Especially in muddy weather when gripshift becomes unusable.

It does appear that there is a lack of components for the children's demographic (across the ages), mainly cranks.
The answers are fairly broad now which is a spanner in the works.

Cranks wise I think you'd need to BUY them.... I personally have no problem cut and trap but liability wise you'd need to buy ....

SJS up in Scotland have square taper cranks ....
Trailcraft have moved over to getting their own HT II fabricated but they went for what looks like a SRAM direct mount ... this is a good move if you want sub 30T rings but I don't think its actually needed now we have 40-42T (avoiding 50T monsters due to ground clearance on smaller wheels)

Isla have sourced Titanium/Carbon Square Taper BB's on their Pro Range

Hope have said (in an email) they are looking at selling their 140's.... that they presently ONLY put on Academy bikes.

So non of that is impossible.

Not putting on gripshift is a no-brainer... though i reckon you'd sell as many without groupset anyway. There are loads of people don't buy Isla [list]because [/list]they insist on gripshift.

Great comments above (and also on the questionnaire comments), thanks!
We're thinking of a hybrid of current ideas and Steve's idea.
Sorry for being a bit vague with our plans.

We'd certainly be providing all components and bearings available as replacement parts too.

Up to 65 questionnaire responses, again- thank you 😀 !

Reoccurring theme is weight. Something I completely agree with.
I've seen countless children and adults being completely put off cycling by weight, which is a real shame.

The balance then is the age old; Cost, weight, price..

Done

Grip shifts for kids could be alright if it wasn't for the fact that the higher force required to move down the gears (7-1) rather than the opposite way around. Just when kiddy-winky needs the easiest possible gear, they find themselves struggling with the force required to pull the cable tight. If there was a derailleur which worked in the opposite direction to make loosening the cable bring the easier gears into play I think grip shifting would work OK.

larkim - Member
Grip shifts for kids could be alright if it wasn't for the fact that the higher force required to move down the gears (7-1) rather than the opposite way around. Just when kiddy-winky needs the easiest possible gear, they find themselves struggling with the force required to pull the cable tight. If there was a derailleur which worked in the opposite direction to make loosening the cable bring the easier gears into play I think grip shifting would work OK.

Wait - you're advocating gripshoft AND rapid rise?

*grabs pitchfork*

cokie - Member
Up to 65 questionnaire responses, again- thank you !

Reoccurring theme is weight. Something I completely agree with.
I've seen countless children and adults being completely put off cycling by weight, which is a real shame.

The balance then is the age old; Cost, weight, price..

Neightbour's kid stopped by yesterday with hsi new "full suspension" bike

Elastomer forks (which he couldn't compress with his full weight), steel coil on the back. Weighed THIRTY SIX pounds, felt much heavie to pick up

Neightbour's kid stopped by yesterday with hsi new "full suspension" bike

Elastomer forks (which he couldn't compress with his full weight), steel coil on the back. Weighed THIRTY SIX pounds, felt much heavie to pick up

cokie - Member

That's sad, eh. At least he's happy with it for now.. Would help if Halfords and the like don't keep selling these FS BSOs.

Yeah - he's happy with it as a thing, I guiess - it's got the shiny bits and the big motorbikey spring and all that. But I doubt it gives him a love of cycling if it's a massive effort to push the thing up the road.

Done

Yeah - he's happy with it as a thing, I guiess

.....until you ripped the shit out of it and even weighed it, which must have made him feel great.....

Wait - you're advocating gripshift AND rapid rise?

*grabs pitchfork*

Just for kids, you understand.

ads678 - Member

.....until you ripped the shit out of it and even weighed it, which must have made him feel great.....

I didn't do any of that while he was watching, I'm not a monster. I told him it was really cool.

Add me to the gripshift whinge list.

I nipped into Halfords yesterday for a chain and the boy had a potter round the shop on one of [url= http://www.halfords.com/cycling/bikes/kids-bikes/motobike-mxr450-kids-bike-16 ]these monstrosities[/url] I couldn't believe how heavy it was.

Edit: just noticed they say it's 21kgs! It didn't feel that heavy but it can't have been far off.

cokie

I reckon you have a initial fairly specialised market.... but one where people will pay for more. I was talking to a Dad at a race a few weeks ago and I'd remarked on his kids Lil shredder... he said "that meant he'd not be getting a new car for another few years".

There is a small but solid niche in the UK market as noone here makes decent kids trail bikes. I'm most amazed that Hope are only doing HT's in their Academy bikes...

Isla are selling their Pro bikes... but no trail bikes.... so realistically the only options are import a Lil Shredder .. wait to see if Trailcraft can get the kids FS dialled (which I've yet to see).... or compromise on something like a Transition or something can't be pedalled like a Kona.

I'd get a transition frame (if they ever release this years) but I'd still need to find working suspension/forks ... and by that time he'd probably be in a XS adult frame.... 🙁

I can add or not add components ... but the forks and shock are the huge unknowns .... quite honestly I wonder if a Lil Shredder might actually be cheaper than setting out down the shock/fork tuning route. If you can solve that (and Lil Shredder seem to have solved it) then you'd have no UK competition albeit in a small market.

(Stans Crest rims seem in short supply in 24... )

If you can get a frame, forks and shock with cranks and headset fitted your immediate market would be people not intimidated by screwing a few components on. You could then expand into the Bird route but I reckon you'll struggle getting SRAM or Shimano cheaper than online prices... 😐

I also reckon you'd have a small but healthy market on bike hire places

stevextc - there's ProPain as well, these are pretty cool and I may contemplate one for Mini Matt's next bike if he gets really good.

https://www.propain-bikes.com/Bikes - scroll down for kids ones

I got a 404 - is it broken?

Steve- Thanks for input. Yes, there is indeed. It's one of the avenues we're looking at. Requires a fair bit of capital to invest if we go down that route though.

Dependent on how the idea develops, we may also have a pump track/mini trail to test bikes, sizing and components.

We'll certainly have a guaranteed trade-in-scheme too, whereby old bikes/frames will be taken in part exchange for a new model.

Early days and just testing the water for now.

Speedster- Sorry, the link included the ')', should be https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/XRSQZ2P

stevextc - there's ProPain as well, these are pretty cool and I may contemplate one for Mini Matt's next bike if he gets really good.

Yep [b]chainstay length[/b] .... 433,5 mm which is 13.5mm LONGER than my Whyte T-130 and still longer than my 27.5 XC bike!

His current XC bike is a Cannondale Frame (everything but Frame/forks thrown away) which has 420mm chainstays... he's got a 35mm Stem (stolen off my bike) and manual-ling is really hard.

His bum won't actually go as far back as the centre of the back wheel!
(I actually have to try hard to manual on it ... and my T-130 is a medium FS and its harder than that certainly no easier when it should be)

I'm not bothered about manuals as a show thing... it really makes it hard for him on drop-offs... and just de-weighing the front wheel.

This is fine in XC but pants on the trail.... in fact its leading to bad technique... he's given up (though due to work we just had 3 weeks off him riding)
This is just short slo-mo I did to show him...

There is a longer video from a month ago when he was really trying... bum all the way back... but I don't think he can realistically do much bigger drop-offs without being able to manual or at least keep his front wheel up ... Its a bit scary watching him do this TBH.... when you see it at full speed....

Also they supply 155mm cranks on a 24" .... which makes me wonder what other compromises ....

Interesting. I need to do some more research on children's bike geometry. Would be interesting to see how the figures vary to adult bikes. I wonder if kids bikes would benefit from 'progressive geometry', I would assume so though it would be more conservative compared to adult bikes.

I'd like a bike with the weight of a Beinn but less xc/hybrid geometry. I'm sure they're great but the bars looks painfully low and the stem is longer than mine.

While we're at it, anyone know the steerer size on a Beinn 20?

Done the survey, but note that Halfords already do free kids bike workshops http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_14552_productId_934567_langId_-1_categoryId_null

Interesting I need to do some more research on children's bike geometry.

Yep Propain tried getting too clever ... they are making a 24/26 frame....
The result is a crap geometry 24 (they do the same on the 20)
Since I have some chainstay lengths in front of me... Realising that's not everything... but common sense should say it should be smaller than an ADULT 27.5....

A transition ripcord = 381
The cannondale (above) = 420
Cube 240 = 426
Hotrock 24 = 420
Norco Fluid 415

As a reference my T-130 med is 420mm ...
If I even took the same position as Jnr on my T-130 the front wheel would stay up.... in fact I did the same drop off 10x myself.... and on a more progressive bike its no effort at all... I've ridden that on my HT-XC bike and I have to really put in some effort to keep the front wheel up.... of course the XC bike wants to help me squash it ....

On Jnr's bike (even when he does everything correct which he isn't in THAT video) the best he can do is delay the front wheel diving..

If your looking at a trail/enduro design (which is where the real hole in the market is IMHO - something the kids can go out with parents from local to BPW) then it needs to be chuck-able....

Yep Propain tried getting too clever ... they are making a 24/26 frame....
The result is a crap geometry 24

I'm guessing the Mondraker Factor also falls into this trap. It's a shame, but there will always be a compromise when trying to fit different wheel sizes into the same bike

I'd like a bike with the weight of a Beinn but less xc/hybrid geometry. I'm sure they're great but the bars looks painfully low and the stem is longer than mine.

The stock Isla's are not really that light .... but I can't see a market in rigid bikes that are not XC-Hybrid ...

The modified Cannondale 24 above is lighter than the stock 24 Beinn and that's with the Front suspension vs rigid.

Frame-weight is mostly unimportant in kids sizes.... at least in any half decent manufacturer... Even carbon doesn't make much difference when the frame itself weighs less than a single tyre or a crankset ...

Trailcraft shave a few grams off with their Titanium frames and forks but its really a few grams compared to the groupset - getting much below 10kg is about the groupset and not having suspension

In other words you can buy any decent frame and chuck all the groupset... fit forks, bars etc., build some wheels with Stans Crest and lighht hubs and stick on XT/XX spec.... or you can buy the Trailcraft or you can lease from Hope

I reckon (retrospectively) buying the trailcraft or leasing is cheaper.

I'm guessing the Mondraker Factor also falls into this trap. It's a shame, but there will always be a compromise when trying to fit different wheel sizes into the same bike

Yep.... and though I sort of get-it (they are extending the usable time on a fairly expensive bike) they are compromising so much with the smaller wheel config it takes away the point....

By the time they are big enough for the 26 wheels... well you might as well get a XS adult bike... ?? So the window when its "goldlocks just right" would seem to be pretty small....

Steve I didn't have anything more than a rigid until I was well into my 20s and there are no decent sus forks for a 20" bike (where my lad is at for his next bike) so I'm very much thinking it won't have any suspension but I'd still very much like it to ride well with decent proportions. He's on a Cnoc 16 currently and that is a much more BMXy style of bike than the bigger wheeled geared bikes.

Am I going to have to start doing my own brand 20" more progressive geo bikes for the more DH/Enduro/BMX orientated parents out there? It doesn't that to be a geometron but it could certainly be less hybrid.

Double post

@Speeder, we've been having a similar discussion re:20" bikes on a local fb enduro/messing about on bikes page. The general concensus is that an Orbea mx 20 dirt (fully rigid) with a nice big volume tyre plus stem, bars and seatpost upgrade (cos the oem ones are a tad heavy) ticks that box.

Ooh those do look interesting ocrider - pretty cheap too in comparison to Frog/Isla - will keep a look out for one on the 2nd hand market

Echo comments re Isla etc having low bars. My daughter had a 24" wheel Frog and we moved her on from that sooner than maybe we needed to as she outgrew it too quickly at the front end.

Was a great bike, light etc, but she ended up too stretched and bent over that she got hip/back pain and started to hate riding, even with the steepest stem I could find on it. Bearing in mind she's a double jointed gymnast, I felt a bit disappointed in that aspect.

Steve I didn't have anything more than a rigid until I was well into my 20s and there are no decent sus forks for a 20" bike (where my lad is at for his next bike) so I'm very much thinking it won't have any suspension but I'd still very much like it to ride well with decent proportions. He's on a Cnoc 16 currently and that is a much more BMXy style of bike than the bigger wheeled geared bikes.

Am I going to have to start doing my own brand 20" more progressive geo bikes for the more DH/Enduro/BMX orientated parents out there? It doesn't that to be a geometron but it could certainly be less hybrid.

Without spending a fortune on a 20" then a BMX with gears isn't a bad idea IMHO. (Lil Shredder do a 20.... if you wanted to invest well over £1000 so it is POSSIBLE - I've seen one in the flesh and they perform REALLY WELL)

Our 20er got 9 months use.... that was from him just about being big enough for the 20er to just about big enough on a 24er.... (he was really a bit small on both)

Steve I didn't have anything more than a rigid until I was well into my 20s

What I can say is after a few hours on the oversized for him 24 with suspension (RST F1rst with 60mm) my kids riding technical trails was transformed.

What happened is one day I forgot to unlock my forks on my HT.... and I realised that no way would I choose to ride what we were riding on a rigid...no wonder he had painful wrists and pumped arms.... It was somewhat scary until I realised half way down the descent and adjusted my line...

We had a Evans Pinnacle Ash which is basically "a BMX with gears" but it served very well for 9 months... but after 9 months he had pushed it to the limit and beyond...

Unless your kid is already doing big jumps and similar on the CNOC I'd say just keep with the BMX like geometry for the 20.... I'd just ignore the Hybrid/XC/CX type (Isla/Frog)

If climbing is an issue that's addressable (the Enduro part) ....but remember the gear ratio's on a 20 vs a 26 or larger

At this stage the main difference/resistance to upgrading is do you get a cassette or freewheel.... Your choices are obviously very limited with a freewheel so unless you get a bike with cassette or can get a 20" wheel (build/buy) with cassette.

Orbea mx 20 dirt (fully rigid) with a nice big volume tyre

Fantastic discussion, cheers all!
Lots of bikes I didn't realize existed either.

The Orbea MX range looks very good actually. Good price, okay components and reasonable weight. Clearly aimed somewhere at the middle of the market.

I suppose the issue around functional suspension is cost.. Sids lowered to 80mm would be a good compromise of weight and performance, but they cost a huge amount. It's not economically viable for me to start making our own.

The rockshox gold 30 at 80mm is another reasonably light fork and a lot cheaper than a sid. Watch for 'Friday afternoon' assembly though. I would recommend a lower leg service straight away to ensure the right amount of oil in there.

Survey done.

Lot of talk about how bad kid's bikes forks are, my boy had bikes bought by price (Haro) and a 2nd hander (Specialized) and the forks worked absolutely fine.

[img] http://tinyurl.com/kwfbldf [/img]
[img] [/img]

Recommended a friend get a Hotrock for his kid on the strength of that one and the quality had gone waaaayyy down! Bikes should get better with each release, not worse! You can't seem to get anything like that Haro now.

Steve if he's not jumping loads yet but I think it's on the cards as he's expressed and interest in building jumps but I'm not pushing him in this . At his own pace. I just don't fancy him trying to jump on something so stretched out but he definitely wants gears on his next bike so it's a bit of a challenge to find something that fits the bill, especially at the price I want to pay and that's not much.

\i'm almost tempted to find a battered Beiin small and build it up with some fat tyres, short stem, risers and see if I can get some of the 20" Spinner forks they put on those Lil Shredders - reckon that'd be a pretty sorted bike for a while.

If I had the cash I'd buy [url= https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2184408/ ]THIS[/url]

Speeder .... The commencal is probably a "downhill only"... (The 24's are)

But perhaps the thing is you don't need suspension to jump on clear jumps.. (even dirt jumpers push the pressure super high on forks and tyres so its just taking out the big hits and BMX etc.) but its important on a trail because of what happens AFTER you land... (tree roots, rocks, trees in the way etc.)

Its also a bit important on the trail they can keep hold of the bars 😀 and fatigue/arm pump

I'm completely with you on the stretched out geometry.... quite honestly I wonder how my kid keeps control when his back wheel jumps and his front dives... I'm not really that happy with it but with the stretched geometry I can't see a way round it... I just don't like the fact he's accepted it and learning bad trail technique... (though obviously it makes the stuff he does on XC tame)

Like I said we only used the 20 for 9 months... and its pretty much BMX geometry... you can switch to shorter stem (£5 delivered from China) etc.

I think lots of the 20's (excepting Isla/Frog) are more BMX geometry ... its more the "hybrid" ones that start to stretch???

I'd also question how wide a tyre you'll fit in the Beinn .... (I don't know but I suspect it will be limited) ... I know we had little clearance for wider on the Evans 20.... (which is theoretically for sale in your price range btw)

@stevextc

Drop offs - in that video your son is eyes down, arms soft and weight stationary.

Has he tried looking up at a landing point, some heels down, weight down and then firmly push the bike forward with feet while hauling/rotating bars back a bit?

I will see if I can dig out a couple of YouTube videos on manualling, just on phone at moment.

I have similar sized kids at bike club who can manual off drop offs on longer, heavier bikes easily with right technique

done

@Matt... yep he's tried... I'm not sure which other video's on my YouTube are public... if anything he's regressed ...

Some of the other videos are me saying "heels down" ... "push with your feet" etc. the reason I made that video (all slo-mo) is to show him but he's now given up and he's just trying to carry speed for the tabletop..

The problem is (I think) even with his arms at full stretch his bum is forwards of the wheel centre... so its 100% the movement not helped by his weight being further back

The point I [u]really [/u]noticed this was when fitting a speed/cadence sensor to his chainstays and his pedals barely overlap the rim...

I have similar sized kids at bike club who can manual off drop offs on longer, heavier bikes easily with right technique

Where about are you ? We are in Surrey this week but hopefully will be up at Guisburn Forest all next half term week... It would be great to see other kids and I think a HUGE motivator for him.

I think at least 50% of the problem is he has given up...

He got told by some older kid at a local bike club race "Oh don't worry about manuals, I can't do them" ... we almost had it with a home made ramp as well...

If he could see other kids doing it I think he'd refresh his efforts on the manual...which are presently more about carrying speed through the drop-offs for the table top.

Another observation on manuals though is they are all about technique and timing and that comes though as "feel".... but geometry gives a lot more latitude ... but once you can do it on an easy to manual bike you can transfer that to a harder to manual.

(I used to struggle on my XC bike... hired a bottom of the range Whyte one weekend and was manual-ling effortlessly before I hit the end of the car park... when my frame came back and I transferred the "feeling" I found it much easier on my XC frame... )