[Closed] BZZZbzzzBZZZbzzz instead of BZZZZZZZZ from DT350 hub 🙁

I've had that on every dt swiss hub I've ever had. Never been that bothered about it. I always get my wheels built and checked by a local expert and the spokes are all very much within tolerances when it comes to tension.

First world problem?

I'm pretty sure it is because the springs apply a little more force on one side due to the coil spring being what it is, so there is as every revolution there will be a point where the sides of the rings with higher force being applied will meet and produce more noise.
You could try a little more grease in there to damp down the sound.
Tweaking the springs so they collapse a little more level at the position they are at in the assembly, but that's going to be tricky and more likely damage the springs.

I've heard a couple even sounding ones Fat-boy e.g.

so maybe it's avoidable could just be the hubs being very sensitive to wheel balance and spring..positioning? There are two springs, could rotating them counter to each other to balance how they apply force to the ratchets help? Guess it's not that hard to try..:S

K - yeah that could do something..

Balancing didn't make any difference (used blue tack applied opposite of valve and checked for vibrations holding the seat and spinning the wheel fast, 9 grams did the trick).

Taking a look at the springs..

Springs are rotating in relation to each other so it's not position. It's the angle of the bend towards the last coils that are flat that determines how much pressure is applied overall to the last coil. So it's going to be super tricky to get right as the correct angle to apply an even force both sides of coil face will actually change with how much it is compressed.
If you were really botherd you could try to find something like wavey washer springs stack (can't remember what they are called at the minute) if the correct size and force but you'll have to be really bored/obsessed to do that.

I think it could be a build up of grease which then gets moved back around.

K Right they are rotating, i guess not in sync so position wouldn't matter?

You mean Belleville Washers or simply wave springs? I might just be..

Don't love the spring setup of the DT's, not so robust - prone to getting the springs jammed just happened to me and a spring bent and made an indentation on the spacer ring..

Are they genuine DT Swiss hubs?

Mine do that, I’d always assumed it was down to the springs. I quite like it.

Got DT350 hubs on two bikes and they both sound different. One is noticeably louder so could be due to different rims, tires, spokes, even frame material?

The rims make a difference, carbon rims seem to act as amplifiers.

Next thing I'll try is to to remove one or both springs and see if the sound becomes even (obviously can't use the bike but should hear the sound).

No springs naturally didn't work at all, only using the top or bottom spring didn't make a difference in sound.

You could try a little more grease in there to damp down the sound.

Don't do this with a 54t.

Clean and regrease and make sure your spacer sleeve is also free on the axle.

Crest to crest wave springs, if you find some the right spec I'd be interested.

It's just a thing they do sometimes. A little more grease will make it quieter, but if you leave it a while it'll probably change by itself as bits move around.

The spacer actually got damaged from the spring wedging into it somehow and the spring bent, bit of a rubbish system (springs were installed in the correct orientations so it shouldn't happen), ordered a new spacer and set of springs - see if they make a difference. Currently missing the pawls of my Hope Pro 2 Evo - never had any problems 😉

K I think it will be hard to find a spring with the right dimensions and such low spring force, I'll measure the force when I get the new springs. Noticed DT came out with a new system not too long ago that only uses one spring btw.

Considering a rebuild with Hope RS4 straight pulls which seem to be the bee's knees, but see how it works w new springs first.

Why would you downgrade your hubs?

The new design is to drop a bit of weight and make a new version on the previously top spec 180s hubs (ceramic bearing jobbbies)
IMO there's actually nothing wrong with the 2 spring design and it will continue in production and the vast number of 240/350 (440, 340, bontrager etc) hubs in existence will continue to be super.
The spacer can however get mushroomed if it's over tightened in the dropouts and this is more likely where your issue started.
Conversely, not tightening your rear axle enough and having it back off when riding and you could strip your stars..as well as overloading with grease.

My 2p

"The spacer can however get mushroomed if it’s over tightened in the dropouts and this is more likely where your issue started."

Possibly what happened, but shouldn't the spacer prevent this? Disagree that there's not something wrong with the design. The spring shouldn't be able to get wedged like that when oriented correctly nor did I tighten the dropouts a ton.

"Why would you downgrade your hubs?"

Because it's an upgrade.

+ No faff with the star ratchets and springs getting stuck, pawls are a more robust design.
+ Much less drag.
+ Much nicer noise IMO (more subtle, good for road)
+ Stainless steel bearings
+ Non oscillating noise
+ Subtler logo
+ Got the hub tools already
= Weighs the same
= Similar engagement
- Cost £40 more (+ rebuild cost obvs).

think less, ride more

Don't discriminate against objectum sexuals. Thanks for the bump!

yohandsome
Member

+ No faff with the star ratchets and springs getting stuck, pawls are a more robust design.

No they aren't... More wear, more moving parts, pawl tips wear and springs snap. And not as well sealed, in the hopes. The star ratchets are one of the most proven systems in hubs. Both systems work well but the star ratchets are more reliable.

Agree with what K said... It’s never bothered me in the slightest, but the nature of the design does mean that pressure isn’t applied equally all the way around the ratchet rings, and as the one turns in relation to the other when you are freewheeling, there is going to be a change in pitch of the sound emitted due to the slight variation in spring pressure on the ratchet teeth as it spins.

As for Hope hubs being an “upgrade”... 😂

The oscillating has never bothered me, though I only have them on the MTBs. I also grease them reasonably regularly to keep them quite.

Quick question, the spacer that slides over the axel can be a right bastard to get off on occasion. Any reason why that might be? TIA

No they aren’t… More wear, more moving parts, pawl tips wear and springs snap. And not as well sealed, in the hopes. The star ratchets are one of the most proven systems in hubs. Both systems work well but the star ratchets are more reliable.

From what I can tell, and my own experience with the Pro 2 evo, pawls are simpler (no real risk of jamming springs upon install), cheaper (54t ratchets $$$ pawls $) and more robust.
Heard about more people with chipped ratchets, also ratchets esp 54t are more sensitive to the amount/viscosity of grease used. After trying them I don't get the ratchet or DT hub hype, Hope is better and had actual human customer support, try contacting DT LOL! Seals are good in both.

That said, happy to keep the DTs if the noise can quiet down and even out (carbon rims = amplifiers). You're only supposed to use a thin layer of DT ratchet grease or else you risk damaging the teeth, which limits how much you should quiet them that way. See what happens with a new springs and a new spacer next week. Also asked for a Hope RS4 rebuild quote.

I had something similar on a very cheap hub that came with a wheelset from Zuus. I haven't taken the hub apart to see how it's made, but I imagine it's nothing like a DT hub.

Until I noticed it I didn't notice it at all, but once I *did* notice it, it was really quite annoying, so much so that I switched out the hub for a Superstar one.

Until I noticed it I didn’t notice it at all, but once I *did* notice it, it was really quite annoying, so much so that I switched out the hub for a Superstar one.

The combination of roadbike (higher speed) and 60 mm carbon wheels makes the oscillating noise a lot more pronounced, might not have noticed it on a MTB with alu rims. It sounds like the wheel is broken to me.

An unbalanced wheel might also cause such noise.

yohandsome
Member

From what I can tell, and my own experience with the Pro 2 evo, pawls are simpler (no real risk of jamming springs upon install),

Still have no idea how you managed that with the DTs tbh. They just drop in. It's a simpler system than fitting in springs etc, just 2 springs and 2 stars stacked up. These have been around forever- my own hubs are at least a decade old- and I've never seen anyone have an issue with it.

Still have no idea how you managed that with the DTs tbh

Turns out it's not uncommon and another user here aware of the issue said it could be due to tightening the dropouts too much (which shouldn't be possible due to the spacer). Can you tell me how you're supposed to "mishandle" the install given that the springs are correctly aligned? It's a poor design + springs have uneven load creating annoying oscillations. Never had any such issue with the Hope evo, guess it's less susceptible to mishandling :p

yohandsome
Member

Turns out it’s not uncommon and another user here aware of the issue said it could be due to tightening the dropouts too much (which shouldn’t be possible due to the spacer).

No, you've misunderstood Bearback's post- he was describing how the spacer can get damaged due to overtightening. It's the spacer itself that's damaged so "shouldn't be possible due to the spacer" makes no sense.

But you'd have to be seriously cackhanded to crush a metal spacer in a hub like this.

No, you’ve misunderstood Bearback’s post- he was describing how the spacer can get damaged due to overtightening.

Ok, yep I misunderstood what he meant by mushroomed.

Yes the spacer wasn't damaged from over tightening - it has spring size "bite" marks on its side and no signs of mushrooming, it was damaged from the freewheel side spring somehow wedging in between the spacer and the ratchet, and when i tried to turn the crank the tip of the spring dug into the spacer and bent. If I had known this could even happen I would have been more careful trying to turn the crank, but if the design had been good it couldn't have happened in the first place.

Turns out it’s not uncommon and another user here aware of the issue said it could be due to tightening the dropouts too much

I absolutely wasn't suggesting that your issue was common.. its not..
I was looking for something that I'm aware has happened that might have contributed to your very uncommon problem that could be attributed to user error..

Reading back your posts suggest that you damaged the parts on reassembly...which again is uncommon

Back to the noise. I'll service my star ratchets when they start getting overly noisy. More noise means they're approaching too little grease.
cassette/driver off, springs/washers/spacer off, wipe off old grease, light coat of red (oddly minty smelling) grease and reassemble with hands...not a lump hammer;)

Go careful when you get your new parts. larger diameter of the spring against the bearing faces, smaller against the stars.
Slide the driver body on slowly and sometimes you need to put your pinky in the end of the driver to align the driver boy bearing spacer with the wheel axle and driver bearings.
Once both starst are keyed to the drive ring and driver body you can slide everything home. The axle end cap has an o-ring that snaps in place to keep everything together.

Co-incidentally I rode with my wife yesterday, her XM1501 is BZZZbzzzBZZZ'ing so I'll take 5 minutes and regrease it today.

Surely you won't have to freewheel if you're maintaining a steady ~30mph?

@BearBack Thanks for the advice, however I said it was not uncommon based on reading about people having similar problems elsewhere, but maybe I was just very unlucky. I don't think it's as uncommon as you think and as I said the springs were aligned correctly and yes I used my hands. But good to know that mushrooming is a potential issue.

@submarined it's wimdy here, freewheeling at 30 mph in tailwinds :p

I’ve had that on every dt swiss hub I’ve ever had

Mine too.

I think "They all do that, Sir"

Not all:

Mine: https://streamable.com/qqrve

Long time Hope fan here but the DT hubs that came OEM on my current bike (in 2015) have been great. I’d have either. I have broken several ratchets in my time (trials rider) but I’ve learnt to trust the DTs.

I have noticed the BZZZZbzzzzzBzzz but can’t say it bothers me when they work so well.

I have broken several ratchets in my time (trials rider) but I’ve learnt to trust the DTs.

Broken DT ratchets or other ratchets? Don't think the BZZZbzzz would be so bad on a MTB, but on a roadbike with carbon wheels it gets a bit too infernal.

Keep the chain tight and pressure on the footrests and it’s nice and quiet on any bike 😉

Both of those hubs in the videos you linked to sound very similar to me and I’m quite sensitive to noise.

Is it not a whole lot less noticeable once the wheel is in contact with the ground and loaded?

..riding it is worse, huge difference to my ears though YMMV.

I know they're supposedly reliable, but that noise is just obnoxiously horrible!

I was putting some new nipples on my summer road wheels over the weekend. They've got powerway r13 hubs (i think, they're branded as something else) and they're still spinning like new after thousands of miles.

Ive got a headache just watching that youtube video!

that noise is just obnoxiously horrible!

If only it was even. I think most people will do fine with powerway etc hubs, it's not rocket science to make a good hub , but also seen some ugly examples of drive rings breaking on cheaper hubs and resale value might not be great.

Money no object Carbon-Ti seems to make the best / lightest road hubs, quite loud though, Hope RS4 is more subdued. Novatech's might be the best value?

Stop freewheeling!

What about loosing the 54t and putting in a 36t.
Not sure 54t is necessary for road.

It's not even necessary for MTB. the £1800 Roval CLX wheels only use 18t.

What about loosing the 54t and putting in a 36t.

Yeah may be nicer, see what I can do with what I have first - waiting for new springs and spacer. Regret not getting novatechs and saving $200 lol.

Novatech are in no way comparable with DT.

Suspect you'd easily find someone to swap your star ratchets for slower engagement/less noisy ones.

That wheel slows down pretty quickly.

Yeah may be nicer, see what I can do with what I have first – waiting for new springs and spacer. Regret not getting novatechs and saving $200 lol.

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/which-chinese-carbon-29-tubeless-disc-50-88-mm-aero-wheelset-around-300

@thisisnotaspoon Did you say get Novatechs??

That wheel slows down pretty quickly.

DT hubs are relatively high drag plus there's a bit of rotor rub hoho.

Novatech are in no way comparable with DT.

Yeah compared to DT350 they're lighter, cheaper, sound better, are less draggy, have anti-bite tech on the freehubs, no springs getting wedged anywhere.. From what I can tell people say here the seal are good too. DT a bit overhyped perhaps?

DT hubs are relatively high drag plus there’s a bit of rotor rub hoho.

My Superstar Road2 hub seems to just go on spinning forever. No rotors though, just nice simple rim brakes.

In my experience DTs are less draggy than alternatives (particularly 240s right enough).

Not seen any rotor drag on any of mine, never had any problem with springs nor ratchets, outlast everything else I've ever had and never had excessive bite issues on free hubs. YMMV.
My oldest are about 15yrs old and only needed one bearing swap.

Seen PLENTY threads and heard from shop mechanics about durability issues on Novatech hubs and some brands such as Santa Cruz stopped speccing them due to warranty problems (and use DTs entry level 370s instead). Heard from a Focus dealer that they have to replace freehubs very regularly on the OEM Novatechs

My exact advice was get novatecs or powerway hubs and spend the money on the rims (specifically when you were looking at ebay bargains of dubious provenance) as IME hubs are generally much of a muchness.

I'm sure the DT would last a lot longer than the bearings in the Novatec's. But then apart form a Hope hub shell I've never killed a hub in a way that wasn't a cheap and simple fix. So "quality" is all relative.

Chris King - Concratulations, you own a £500 hub set that will last at least 10 years without any problems, but will be obsolesced in 5 years by 3mm wider road-micro-boost spacing.
DT - expensive and noisy
Hope - possibly overpriced compared to similar hubs from the far east, but awesome colours and when parts do wear out they're available, generally cheap and a cinch to replace.
Novatec/bitex/powerway - available in any colour you like as long as it's black. And at ~1/3 the price of DT and Hope you would need to be doing some serious mileage* to be getting through hub internals quickly enough to make the DT's look attractive.

*arguably disk brakes tip the balance in favour of DT a bit, with rim brakes there really wasn't much point in a hub that would outlast a rim and cost multiples of the price, even the poverty spec unsealed shimano hubs would last till the rim was toast.

In my experience DTs are less draggy than alternatives (particularly 240s right enough).

I think the 54t is known to be draggier, the others prob on par with other systems, but we're talking marginal differences here regardless.

@thisisnotaspoon I remember! We'll see if I regret not taking your advice, that said, my no1 pick Hope RS4 was not avail from Farsports and it won't be hard to sell the DT350 hub if I upgrade to them.

The worst part about Novatechs are lack of support, shitty resale value and some accounts of them exploding into bits - I'd always pay £80 extra for Hopes, if something goes wrong they make it right. Only have 1 bike too, so I want perfection ;p

This is getting silly.
DT aren't overhyped. 350 hubs are pretty much the benchmark for value/ performance/durability. If you want to spend less, get a 370 but deal with the fact that if you're pushing high wattage you'll likely be replacing pawls a couple of time a year (road likely fine as you're not shock loading)
Drag may be lower as they're less well sealed than 350/240 and you can run silly light chain lube as pawl oil.

Bringing rotor rub in as a negative for a hub is surely clutching at straws.

If you're that set on a cheap pawl solution.. Just retro fit your current 350 with a 370 drive ring and driver body. Or swap a 370 hub in so you don't have to spend more money on different spokes?

DTs def are overhyped if you care at all about sound! I agree value is decent, 350s are £104 for a rear straight pull disc on here.

370 freehub is not a bad idea, but do the seals match up perfectly?

Nobody said rotor rub was a negative, that's just me not truing a fresh rotor that came un-true out of the box perfectly yet.

Yes this is silly, but we're all quarantined or something so..

you'd need to pull the hub body seal off the 350 and use the 370 driver seal. It works in reverse as long as you're not pressure washing 😉
I'll try it later once 'home school' is out.

Need those special tools though, which would take 2 months to get here from china or cost £100 if you buy em locally :S

Guess I could ask my LBS! Oh wait.

I just pulled the stars out of a 350 road hub but even with the pawls removed from a 370 driver it wont fit inside the star drive ring without pulling the drive ring out so I can't push the driver all the way home onto the 350's shell seal
Not getting into pulling drive rings just now 🙁
Theres hack vids of people going from 370 spec to 350 spec, but probably not the other way round as remember, the star ratchets are the upgrade 😉

Thanks for checking, from what I can tell the seals are the same, but alas no cheap way to get the tools right now, unless I buy them and return them lol. Also need the drive ring..

New freehub £30
New drive ring £40?
Ratchet tool £40
Pawl ring tool £40

Pawl freehub has maybe half the engagement of the 54t ratchet, not that it matters that much for road.

Pawl freehub has maybe half the engagement of the 54t ratchet, not that it matters that much for road

If engagement really doesn't matter, why don't you get a set of 18t drive rings and try that, the least resistance of all the options (18/36/54), they are usually dirt cheap and by the sounds of it, most importantly almost silent!

Regarding the noise, my dt240s isn't a consistent sound, do I care? Not at all, such a reliable hub and easy to work in, I would take ring drive over any Pawl hub, my background is trials so the more surface area of contact the better, I ran Chris King on my trials bike for years!

If there's rotor rub, is that not causing the variation in sound that you can hear? if you take the calliper/disc off, is it still there?

The tools are £10 each. There are eBay sellers with UK stock.

Drive ring is £16 (think this is the right one) https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/dt-swiss-external-screw-thread-ring-nut-for-3pawl-hubs-m34-x-1mm-hbdt826/ . Even the 240 drive ring is only £16.

Freehub is £35 https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/dt-swiss-3pawl-freehub-body-aluminium-shimano-11speed-road/

Selling the removed bits would more than cover the cost of replacement parts.

I'd swap my 18t for your 54t if you wanted to try that approach. 😀

The tools are £10 each. There are eBay sellers with UK stock.

Don't see any! 18T is ofc cheaper to get, but then you have uneven spring tension causing BRRRbrrr-ing again.

do I care? Not at all

Do you use it on a road carbon rim aero bike? 😉

@Daffy no difference, used to have no rub.

I got this one https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333517470776. Seemed to be from UK stock. Didn't have the normal China post labels and while not a quick delivery at just over a week that shouldn't be surprising as I ordered it when the current mess was kicking off.

Thanks, unfortunately they don't ship to Germany which is why I didn't see it. Anyways see how it does with new springs first.

Don’t see any! 18T is ofc cheaper to get, but then you have uneven spring tension causing BRRRbrrr-ing again.

do I care? Not at all

Do you use it on a road carbon rim aero bike?

You are right, I don't use it on a road bike.

With regards to the 18t, its ALOT quieter than any of the other drive rings to the point where silencing it with abit more grease is possible.

This is getting silly.
DT aren’t overhyped.

I didn't say they were over hyped, I said they were expensive.

And the issues with pawls overstated. Actually running them into the ground takes riding in filthy conditions and a lot of miles. Followed by a quick swizz of WD40 to clean them and a wipe of grease and they're good for another year. And if they're completely knackered then a set of Hope pawl springs is £3, or pawls + springs £12.

That and every DT hub I've tried sounds like one of these which is what actually puts me off:

Pawls are totally fine indeed. Never had any issue with them breaking or with installation on my Hope hubs.

LOL accurate description of the 54T ratchet 🤣

As others have said, swap someone for 18T (I have some unused ones if you want) and lube them appropriately - it'll be quieter than alternatives. Certainly makes more sense than paying money to downgrade your hub.

Pawl freehub has maybe half the engagement of the 54t ratchet, not that it matters that much for road.

i can confirm that the 3 pawl system has a continuous buzz. Ive got dt swiss 360 hubs on my SLR1 aero wheel set.

Nice sound.

But i suspect what you need is
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fbicycles.stackexchange.com%2Fquestions%2F14194%2Fis-there-such-thing-as-a-freewheel-that-doesnt-click%2F14216&psig=AOvVaw1dPdUdgi3dTi0MzJqeR1sD&ust=1585735695885000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCKDp__m7xOgCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD

maybe find out if this is still for sale ? ( the joke is that this hub was advertised on the classifieds weekly for about 2 years)

I want some buzzin, enough for people to hear and get out the way, but i want it to be even, and i wasnt aware how much carbon wheels would amplify the noise (plus the higher speed on roadbikes) so now I'm thinking a bit less is more.

https://m.pinkbike.com/news/video-industry-nine-adds-volume-adjustment-knob-to-its-hubs.html

Saw this. Thought. Of you.

Got new springs + spacer, here're the results: https://streamable.com/vl15m (btw, the springs require 3.6-3.9 N to fully collapse).

Still sounds like bees from hell, but it's a bit better than before and there's less drag. What sounds like disc rub is actually not. Might add some more grease but overall I can live with it now.
In retrospect should have gotten the 18 or 36T ratchet (and if they were avail, Hope RS4 hubs).

(edit: doh.. repost)

what about these new i9 hubs? Turn them down to 1 😉

Got nOthing on my DT350 54T ratchet with CARBON FIBER AMPLIFICATION TECH!!
https://streamable.com/vl15m https://streamable.com/vl15m https://streamable.com/vl15m